For the time being, until a better system can be put in place, I actually think Foundry loot should be disabled entirely, and the IOR wrapper temporarily removed. The current rewards structure is doing more damage than good. Unfortunately, much of the damage has already been done, with a number of authors removing their missions or quitting the game in frustration.
I can get behind the idea hippiejon is proposing as long as the mission qualification is reduced to 10 minutes and the requirement for fleet marks and dilithium is GREATLY reduced all across the game.
The purpose of the Foundry is not to change or fix other aspects of the game. If Fleet Marks are too hard to come and little fleets die because of it, that has nothing to do with the Foundry. The Foundry is not a crutch to be used to power grind for dilithium and fleet marks.
1.) Improve the UI to allow for sorting of grinder missions and story missions. From what I've read, this seems to be the most popular solution among the non-flamers on both sides of the debate. I understand there may be a lot of behind-the-scenes work by the dev's that may make this impractical, at least for the near future.
I thought this was reasonable for a while, but I no longer do. It assumes that grinding is a legitimate use of the Foundry, and based on what we've been told is the purpose of the Foundry, I believe that it is not.
Combat heavy missions are fine and legitimate to make, but they shouldn't provide rewards at a faster rate than other ways of grinding for rewards. What's more, they shouldn't provide rewards that are better than non-combat, low combat, or longer missions.
So, the distinction to me is that pure combat missions are legitimate to make, but grinding for resources is not, nor should combat missions be privileged by the reward structure over other types of missions.
A better UI with categories would be desirable in any case, but it alone is not the solution for the grind issue.
The purpose of the Foundry is not to change or fix other aspects of the game. If Fleet Marks are too hard to come and little fleets die because of it, that has nothing to do with the Foundry. The Foundry is not a crutch to be used to power grind for dilithium and fleet marks.
Then why did the DEVs push the player base there to get it? There is nothing better right now than IOR for gaining Fleet marks. So since Cryptic made it that way that is exactly what the Foundry is for now.
I sincerely apologize for misconstruing intent. I think 15min baseline is and should remain the current reward structure and then calculate out from there. Someone with the willpower to sit through a three hour mission should get a heap of swag. Personally, I can't run those kinds of missions as I'd probably get frustrated at the lack of story editing and give up -- but in no way should people be prevented from making and playing those missions.
Here is a solution: Make the Fleet missions like Blockade and Starbase Defence pay 50 Marks at minimum and have a 20 min cooldown and pay 440 Dil. Then the player base would no longer need IOR and the "Foundry Community" can have their Foundry all to themselves. It all boils down to you guys dont want the un-washed masses in your house but Cryptic started giving away Beer and Chips for going there. Move the best source of Fleet marks to another mission and it all goes away.
The Foundry is not a crutch to be used to power grind for dilithium and fleet marks.
Says who?
Now, before you flame me be aware I'm more or less playing Devil's Advocate with that statement (and be honest, it got your attention ).
My personnal feelings are as follows:
First off those upset over the change to Timid creatures should probably calm down a bit. It is just a game, after all. No need to get worked up too much over pixels.
However, I am concerned about the future. My concern comes from what I see as basically an attempt by a few to more or less legislate morality; that is to say a relative handful of authors attempting to tell others how they will play. "You must play my overly wordy mission or else!" I've always wondered why that bothered people so much (then again I'm a "live and let live" kind of guy who refuses to dictate to someone how they will spend their free time). If people want to play a Foundry mission, they are going to. A "grinder" mission isn't going to stop that (I do agree though, the clickies were lame).
Then again, Cryptic kind of brought it on themselves. The dilithium cap, the exorbitant resources required for the reputation system, the way it works (in escense grinding to unlock the ability to grind), the scalling back on what rewards dilithium and how much etc. combined with many veterans still here when STO was pay to play who have multiple toons and need to fill that dilithium cap in order to do anything meaningful at endgame breeds a grinders mentality.
I left World of Tanks because the community nosed-dive hard, with the "privledged few" trying dictating how people will play, how hard they will play, what they would play with etc. I'd hate to see STO turn into something like that.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Here is a solution: Make the Fleet missions like Blockade and Starbase Defence pay 50 Marks at minimum and have a 20 min cooldown and pay 440 Dil. Then the player base would no longer need IOR and the "Foundry Community" can have their Foundry all to themselves. It all boils down to you guys dont want the un-washed masses in your house but Cryptic started giving away Beer and Chips for going there. Move the best source of Fleet marks to another mission and it all goes away.
It doesn't have anything to do with the "unwashed masses". It has to do with the fact the Foundry is for story missions, and when story missions get rated lower than missions without any story then things are not working right. If you don't care about story, then you shouldn't be in the Foundry, and that is an example of the rewards structure being flawed.
I don't complain that the STFs or fleet actions have next to no story. Different aspects of the game are for different types of people.
I completely agree with you that content outside the Foundry should provide more FM, etc. That is part of the solution. You guys just want your marks, and don't care whether it's from the Foundry, or somewhere else, and that's fine. I wholeheartedly support adding FMs to more things.
But whatever flaws there are in the rest of the game, there is no reason why the people should flood into the Foundry and start running the shortest, most combat centric missions, in order to try to fix it. The Foundry is not there to try to fix whatever problems that exist with the rest of the game.
I really dont understand why the rest of you arent jumping on the bandwagon I just drove through here. You just dont get it do you? Its IMPOSSIBLE for an algorithm to properly police against exploiters. You can program it to calculate total clickies, distance of one clickie to another, average play time, text length, yada yada yada and I will STILL be able to exploit it. (And Im not even an exploiter doe)
All I have to do is create the minimum requirements for a "long mission" reward by having x amount of clickies, x amount of maps, y amount of text length, z amount of contacts, whatever, and all Ive done is make contacts who arent dressed right, thrown anywhere on a map, and long dialogue that talks about how I had a TRIBBLE contest with my buddies. ZERO EFFORT and ZERO Star Trek heart required. :rolleyes:
The ONLY way to police the system and grant rewards for missions that are taking Star Trek missions seriously is a HUMAN BRAIN from a quality STO player who respects the IP.
Dan already has the best authors carrying 3/4 of the quality story load in this game, and you are all PAYING to do it. Theres no way Dan has the Foundry mentioned in THE Star Trek magazine if there werent quality authors who made quality missions to make the tool look great to other Star Trek fans. Only the good authors have made the Foundry what it is today. If the best fans in sci-fi never put any effort into the Foundry, it would have only ever been a cesspool of junk missions.
Dan, the best fans in sci-fi have made you and your team look good. Why cant you trust the best of them to help combat exploiters and separate the wheat from the chaff in determining what missions should grant rewards? Lazy exploiters will NEVER get a mission of theirs rewarded if you'd let the responsible foundry authors maintain the integrity of the foundry, something they obviously care about, and something you obviously care about Dan, or you wouldnt care about exploiters at all.
And concerning the legality of my pay dilithium to them idea for doing it, seriously, why cant you? Some of these authors have just signed over top shelf content all for the love of the IP and a little self satisfaction. You all own the right to their content. You've said these are the rules, take it or leave it, and they STILL pour quality content into your game. Whats left of them anyway. If the best authors value the IP and this game above their own wallets and business common sense, why cant you just add an IN GAME ONLY wage to them? The authors agree to the current legal agreement of submitting their content, and you havnt been sued yet. Why cant you just say, here, take these GAME wages, and now THATS all you get, and you have an easier richer life in game in exchange for helping Cryptic make a richer more fulfilling Star Trek experience for all. It doesnt kill you guys to throw these few guys and gals a bone. Player/authors are agreeing to the current legal agreement, why wouldnt they agree to one that favors you both?
Talk to us Dan. The best authors are trying to help you here. How bout you help them help you look better and let them come alongside you as quasi employees of Cryptic? Isnt it easier to pay dilithium wages and them agree to that EULA for those willing to do it, than let the Foundry starve of quality content and turn to a wasteland of junk because all your failed programming efforts ruined the system beyond repair and the best authors stopped caring and left? I mean, you guys either care about the Foundry or you dont. It doesnt take a genius to outwit anything you all can program. Either get a workforce of real brains to make the foundry respectable, or just say its done.
And like I mentioned before, you all need to come up with something that your player/authors agree is fair, or your new Neverwinter WILL fall flat on its face when you withhold real XP and loot from all the massive player created quests coming in. Cryptic could be a pioneer in creating a relationship with its best trusted players that is world renown. Or, you could stay stubborn and let Foundry die and Neverwinter with it, because you cant program bullet proof exploit police, and you wont trust players who have already proved leaps and bounds they CAN be trusted if you place some trust in them.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
However, I am concerned about the future. My concern comes from what I see as basically an attempt by a few to more or less legislate morality; that is to say a relative handful of authors attempting to tell others how they will play. "You must play my overly wordy mission or else!" I've always wondered why that bothered people so much (then again I'm a "live and let live" kind of guy who refuses to dictate to someone how they will spend their free time). If people want to play a Foundry mission, they are going to. A "grinder" mission isn't going to stop that (I do agree though, the clickies were lame).
The current rewards structure is already telling people how to play and thus they're playing the shortest missions. I suppose that if my missions provided much better rewards that blew the grinders away, but you had to sit and click slowly through every text box then people who wanted to grind would play them. That would be forcing people to play that type of mission, and I am in no way advocating that.
In fact, the problem is currently the opposite. Longer missions are not on even footing with the short missions at all. They provide a fraction of the rewards for the time spent. So, we're far from story missions being in any way favored. Right now we're still working on getting back onto level ground.
Every single thing from the clickies to the current grinders can be traced back to the rewards. People didn't play the clickies because they thought they were amazing to play, they probably thought they were boring as hell, but they provided a quick source of dilithium/fleet marks. Now it's the grinders, the obvious replacement for the clickies, short as possible, all combat so the most loot is dropped. The truth is we have no idea what people would play in a vacuum because it never has existed. The rewards have been distorting things from the start.
The fact is, Cryptic has said the Foundry is about creating stories. If that is the case, the rewards need to either provide an incentive for doing so, or at the very least not penalize missions that do so. If it's not the case, and "Kill 25x" missions are what is expected, then further work on the Foundry should be put into other aspects of the game, because the Foundry is already more than good enough to create Rumbles and similar missions-- no more work is needed, in that case.
Anyway, that is my opinion. In the end, Cryptic needs to decide what they want from the Foundry, but I will reserve the right to choose whether I continue devoting my time to it. I will say, however, that if the NW Foundry ends up being nothing but missions with 25 goblin groups on an un-customized map, it's going to be a huge shame.
It doesn't have anything to do with the "unwashed masses". It has to do with the fact the Foundry is for story missions, and when story missions get rated lower than missions without any story then things are not working right. If you don't care about story, then you shouldn't be in the Foundry, and that is an example of the rewards structure being flawed.
I don't complain that the STFs or fleet actions have next to no story. Different aspects of the game are for different types of people.
I completely agree with you that content outside the Foundry should provide more FM, etc. That is part of the solution. You guys just want your marks, and don't care whether it's from the Foundry, or somewhere else, and that's fine. I wholeheartedly support adding FMs to more things.
But whatever flaws there are in the rest of the game, there is no reason why the people should flood into the Foundry and start running the shortest, most combat centric missions, in order to try to fix it. The Foundry is not there to try to fix whatever problems that exist with the rest of the game.
Like I said in another post. Cryptic pushed the players to the Foundry due to the IOR rewards. That is what they seem to want. And the Authors that made Grinders responded and gave the Players what they wanted, Just like TV. Producers make TV shows that the masses want to watch. Honey Boo-Boo is like #1 show right now ,not Masterpiece Theater on PBS.
I have said before and will say again, I really don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater.
People logging in are what this game needs the most in order to survive in a very competitive market. Yes the current rewards for foundry missions don't help creative story crafters, but does fill a need for I'm sure a large group of the player base. Like it or not we need to keep these players happy in order to keep this game afloat. Not enough players = not enough revenue = no STO
Now a good group of players do enjoy story over reward, and it is currently a real struggle to find story missions. I feel for authors who spend hours and hours crafting their masterpiece only to find it buried amongst paint by numbers lithographs. Their stories need to be easier to find, or like flowers starved of sunlight, will wither and die.
A previous poster suggested the multilayer review/categorization system with recognized authors and Brandon overseeing. This sounds the least prone manipulation and perhaps could be looked into and sorted out. Once this system is solid, then further rewards could be put in place to encourage players normally out for a good time not a long time give these tales a go.
But to play devil's advocate, what type of message would this give in regards to the already in game story missions? Should these player made stories no matter how good be rewarded better than Cryptics' own? What time frame for mission categorization and acceptance would be reasonable in order not to put off authors? How long before volunteer reviewers would tire going through the countless missions to monitor and verify they fit the categories indicated?
So in summary I believe that:
- the current rewards should in no way be further down adjusted or removed.
- an updated foundry search tool in conjunction with an in-house reviewer.
People are "playing" those grind missions and they will continue to do so. Whatever Cryptic does to get rid of them they will find new ways to earn easy rewards. I guess that's a side effect of f2p.
Let's take an advice into account that Worf gives to his son Alexander: "Do not try to fight force with force. You'll lose every time".
So here is the idea: Why not give the reward for playing foundry missions after a certain amout of time has passed (and the player is not marked AFK) regardless of completion. That means to give the player the option to end a mission after let's say 20 minutes or continue and finish it. If the mission is good, more people will want to finish it anyway. And this is the whole idea of f2p. Let people try something and if they like it they stick with it (and eventually buy things). This way clickie missions or other useless grinding missions will no longer be needed and make room for good (story) missions.
There is a reason grinding has become so popular on the foundry, its because the devs have created a MASSIVE demand for dilithium and somewhat for fleet marks as well. They have taken some measures to increase supply, one of which was the 30 minute cooldown on IOR. The dilithium refining cap of 8k per day is another reason foundry grinding specifically has become so popular, you don't have to fully deck out a character to grind on the foundry like you would for stfs for example. Think about it, you have reputation systems who's gear now all costs high amounts of dilithium, some of which was free prior to S7, plus you have fleet projects who's dilithium requirements are increasing exponentially. Tier 5 category upgrades are what, 48k marks and 3.6mil dil was it? Bottom line is they have created a system where grinding is necessary.
I for one would like to see the option of sorting the grinders vs story missions and perhaps a return to the previous foundry settings. I understand the story author's concerns over there missions getting buried by grinders, and there are plenty of players who do enjoy playing story missions, they shouldn't have to wade through tons of grinders trying to find them. I don't see why it would be a problem to have the missions sorted based on the authors choice. I doubt a grinder author would intentionally stick his mission in with the story missions or vice versa so long as neither side was favored in regards to the ease of finding the missions. If that did become an issue a miscategorized flag system could be added.
If the issue is simply one of story missions getting buried then I don't understand what the issue is with adding a category system. If the issue is some foundry authors wanting to try to force us to play there way or not at all, well then that's another matter and the war will continue.
On another note the proposal for a bonus reward system for spotlight missions and I'd say previous spotlights as well is a good one and would actually be enough to get me to play some of them.
Tried to keep it all constructive and peaceful this time .
On another note the proposal for a bonus reward system for spotlight missions and I'd say previous spotlights as well is a good one and would actually be enough to get me to play some of them
There is no need for reviewers to check that people are being honest about categories. This is pointless bureaucracy for its own sake and there would never be enough people available to do it. It is enough of a pain getting missions out of the regular review process.
THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO MOTIVATION FOR ANYONE TO BE IN THE LEAST BIT DISHONEST ABOUT WHAT CATEGORY THEIR MISSION FALLS UNDER. NONE.
The search engine for finding Foundry missions is the key to fixing this situation. And it is not just story vs. grinder that this could fix. A better search UI could allow people to find not simply this or that type of mission but exactly what they are looking to play, i.e. Klingon war missions, mirror universe missions, time travel missions, et al. The inability to sort missions was already a major shortcoming of the Foundry before any of this rancor started.
I will plug this again since people seem more interested in taking umbrage than finding a working solution:
Ok slightly off topic and not trying to start ANOTHER argument, but are you new to the internet or marketing tricks in general? A certain subset of any demographic will indeeed false promote if they think it will bring them the advantage(whatever it may be, in this case viewership I suppose) they are looking for, particuarly if they have a marketing degree.
Ok slightly off topic and not trying to start ANOTHER argument, but are you new to the internet or marketing tricks in general? A certain subset of any demographic will indeeed false promote if they think it will bring them the advantage(whatever it may be, in this case viewership I suppose) they are looking for, particuarly if they have a marketing degree.
The thing with this though they would be punished for lying. I'll give you an example.
AuthorBob makes a mission called "The Vulcan Mind".
It's a non-combat mission about having to enter the mind of a Vulcan and curing him of some mind implant like a lot of Star Trek Episodes.
AuthorBob tries to be sneaky and adds the tags "Farming" and "Combat"
Players who choose to play "The Vulcan Mind" because of these tags are going to rate the mission very poorly because it doesn't meet what they wanted.
The thing with this though they would be punished for lying. I'll give you an example.
AuthorBob makes a mission called "The Vulcan Mind".
It's a non-combat mission about having to enter the mind of a Vulcan and curing him of some mind implant like a lot of Star Trek Episodes.
AuthorBob tries to be sneaky and adds the tags "Farming" and "Combat"
Players who choose to play "The Vulcan Mind" because of these tags are going to rate the mission very poorly because it doesn't meet what they wanted.
Oh agreed but the post I was responding too said, I thought, that reviewers dont need to concern themselves with wich category it was listed in. Or did I read it wrong...Is late.
Oh agreed but the post I was responding too said, I thought, that reviewers dont need to concern themselves with wich category it was listed in. Or did I read it wrong...Is late.
No, my point was that there was no need for people to review categories in the first place because there is no reason anyone would lie about that. If they DID it would be self-correcting in that the mission would never get played again.
No, my point was that there was no need for people to review categories in the first place because there is no reason anyone would lie about that. If they DID it would be self-correcting in that the mission would never get played again.
Don't know why I didn't think of that, your right the issue would self correct without any new category review system.
The thing with this though they would be punished for lying. I'll give you an example.
AuthorBob makes a mission called "The Vulcan Mind".
It's a non-combat mission about having to enter the mind of a Vulcan and curing him of some mind implant like a lot of Star Trek Episodes.
AuthorBob tries to be sneaky and adds the tags "Farming" and "Combat"
Players who choose to play "The Vulcan Mind" because of these tags are going to rate the mission very poorly because it doesn't meet what they wanted.
It might be fun to make a mission called "Klingon Farming Mission" in which you have been captured by the Klingons and forced to plant 100 or so raddish plants on one of their farms. You know, just to TRIBBLE people off.
It might be fun to make a mission called "Klingon Farming Mission" in which you have been captured by the Klingons and forced to plant 100 or so raddish plants on one of their farms. You know, just to TRIBBLE people off.
LOL I'd consider making a mission like this if it wouldn't get a million 1 stars because of people expecting EZ Lootz.
The story is already forming in my head. Meet a Klingon War Hero who has had enough of fighting and wants to retire on his farm, but the High Council needs his services one more time. Head to his farm and find out he raises Targs and slaughters them via hand to hand combat.
LOL I'd consider making a mission like this if it wouldn't get a million 1 stars because of people expecting EZ Lootz.
The story is already forming in my head. Meet a Klingon War Hero who has had enough of fighting and wants to retire on his farm, but the High Council needs his services one more time. Head to his farm and find out he raises Targs and slaughters them via hand to hand combat.
So, I have an observation about where all the animosity toward each other comes from.
Farmers say Cryptic intended this change, and wanted to drive people to the IOR mission and that's why they changed this. That the change indicates that the farming missions are what they are intending to support via this decision.
I have seen this claim multiple times.
The Foundry Authors keep saying that Cryptic intended the Foundry for story based missions, as a place that players sick of the grind in the rest of the game can come not have to have the grind. Etc Etc
Everyone thinks that they know exactly what the DEVS intended with their design of the Foundry and the IOR wrappper mission.
We don't know Jack.
And that's the issue.
If we had a statement from Cryptic about
(1) What the intention of the Foundry is ?
(2) What is the intention behind shifting IOR to a 30 minutes cooldown?
most importanty (3) What will be considered "exploits"?
If we knew this , we could stop arguing with each other about who is right and who is wrong, and instead come from a place where we all know what the intent is. We could more productively work together toward creating a solution that serves The Farmers, The Authors, and Cryptic.
Until then, we're just throwing ideas at each other, and getting mad when a proposed idea doesn't meet our exact view of the way things should be. And , of course, they are not gonna match up, because none of us really know what the goal we are shooting for is.
Just my two cents
Thank you for (for the most part) keeping this "on topic".
I think a whole lot of good ideas are being bandied around here, and if we can continue to ignore (and simply report them to the mods) those coming in to simply "grief" this thread, then I honestly think that this community can prove how awesome we can be together.
My input into the discussion :
I actually do not like the idea of a "player driven council" to judge missions for qualifying or whatever. Best of intentions and all that. Power Corrupts. Etc Etc Etc.
I doubt most of us hold Peter Parker's sense of "great power, great responsibility".
I just think such a system has too much potential for abuse.
Just my two cents.
It might be fun to make a mission called "Klingon Farming Mission" in which you have been captured by the Klingons and forced to plant 100 or so raddish plants on one of their farms. You know, just to TRIBBLE people off.
Comments
Posts like this only lead to derail a thread and provoke an argument. Lets cut it down (both sides)
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
Agreed. /signed.
The purpose of the Foundry is not to change or fix other aspects of the game. If Fleet Marks are too hard to come and little fleets die because of it, that has nothing to do with the Foundry. The Foundry is not a crutch to be used to power grind for dilithium and fleet marks.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
I thought this was reasonable for a while, but I no longer do. It assumes that grinding is a legitimate use of the Foundry, and based on what we've been told is the purpose of the Foundry, I believe that it is not.
Combat heavy missions are fine and legitimate to make, but they shouldn't provide rewards at a faster rate than other ways of grinding for rewards. What's more, they shouldn't provide rewards that are better than non-combat, low combat, or longer missions.
So, the distinction to me is that pure combat missions are legitimate to make, but grinding for resources is not, nor should combat missions be privileged by the reward structure over other types of missions.
A better UI with categories would be desirable in any case, but it alone is not the solution for the grind issue.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
Then why did the DEVs push the player base there to get it? There is nothing better right now than IOR for gaining Fleet marks. So since Cryptic made it that way that is exactly what the Foundry is for now.
Maybe you should try one and find out?
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
Says who?
Now, before you flame me be aware I'm more or less playing Devil's Advocate with that statement (and be honest, it got your attention
My personnal feelings are as follows:
First off those upset over the change to Timid creatures should probably calm down a bit. It is just a game, after all. No need to get worked up too much over pixels.
However, I am concerned about the future. My concern comes from what I see as basically an attempt by a few to more or less legislate morality; that is to say a relative handful of authors attempting to tell others how they will play. "You must play my overly wordy mission or else!" I've always wondered why that bothered people so much (then again I'm a "live and let live" kind of guy who refuses to dictate to someone how they will spend their free time). If people want to play a Foundry mission, they are going to. A "grinder" mission isn't going to stop that (I do agree though, the clickies were lame).
Then again, Cryptic kind of brought it on themselves. The dilithium cap, the exorbitant resources required for the reputation system, the way it works (in escense grinding to unlock the ability to grind), the scalling back on what rewards dilithium and how much etc. combined with many veterans still here when STO was pay to play who have multiple toons and need to fill that dilithium cap in order to do anything meaningful at endgame breeds a grinders mentality.
I left World of Tanks because the community nosed-dive hard, with the "privledged few" trying dictating how people will play, how hard they will play, what they would play with etc. I'd hate to see STO turn into something like that.
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
It doesn't have anything to do with the "unwashed masses". It has to do with the fact the Foundry is for story missions, and when story missions get rated lower than missions without any story then things are not working right. If you don't care about story, then you shouldn't be in the Foundry, and that is an example of the rewards structure being flawed.
I don't complain that the STFs or fleet actions have next to no story. Different aspects of the game are for different types of people.
I completely agree with you that content outside the Foundry should provide more FM, etc. That is part of the solution. You guys just want your marks, and don't care whether it's from the Foundry, or somewhere else, and that's fine. I wholeheartedly support adding FMs to more things.
But whatever flaws there are in the rest of the game, there is no reason why the people should flood into the Foundry and start running the shortest, most combat centric missions, in order to try to fix it. The Foundry is not there to try to fix whatever problems that exist with the rest of the game.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
All I have to do is create the minimum requirements for a "long mission" reward by having x amount of clickies, x amount of maps, y amount of text length, z amount of contacts, whatever, and all Ive done is make contacts who arent dressed right, thrown anywhere on a map, and long dialogue that talks about how I had a TRIBBLE contest with my buddies. ZERO EFFORT and ZERO Star Trek heart required. :rolleyes:
The ONLY way to police the system and grant rewards for missions that are taking Star Trek missions seriously is a HUMAN BRAIN from a quality STO player who respects the IP.
Dan already has the best authors carrying 3/4 of the quality story load in this game, and you are all PAYING to do it. Theres no way Dan has the Foundry mentioned in THE Star Trek magazine if there werent quality authors who made quality missions to make the tool look great to other Star Trek fans. Only the good authors have made the Foundry what it is today. If the best fans in sci-fi never put any effort into the Foundry, it would have only ever been a cesspool of junk missions.
Dan, the best fans in sci-fi have made you and your team look good. Why cant you trust the best of them to help combat exploiters and separate the wheat from the chaff in determining what missions should grant rewards? Lazy exploiters will NEVER get a mission of theirs rewarded if you'd let the responsible foundry authors maintain the integrity of the foundry, something they obviously care about, and something you obviously care about Dan, or you wouldnt care about exploiters at all.
And concerning the legality of my pay dilithium to them idea for doing it, seriously, why cant you? Some of these authors have just signed over top shelf content all for the love of the IP and a little self satisfaction. You all own the right to their content. You've said these are the rules, take it or leave it, and they STILL pour quality content into your game. Whats left of them anyway. If the best authors value the IP and this game above their own wallets and business common sense, why cant you just add an IN GAME ONLY wage to them? The authors agree to the current legal agreement of submitting their content, and you havnt been sued yet. Why cant you just say, here, take these GAME wages, and now THATS all you get, and you have an easier richer life in game in exchange for helping Cryptic make a richer more fulfilling Star Trek experience for all. It doesnt kill you guys to throw these few guys and gals a bone. Player/authors are agreeing to the current legal agreement, why wouldnt they agree to one that favors you both?
Talk to us Dan. The best authors are trying to help you here. How bout you help them help you look better and let them come alongside you as quasi employees of Cryptic? Isnt it easier to pay dilithium wages and them agree to that EULA for those willing to do it, than let the Foundry starve of quality content and turn to a wasteland of junk because all your failed programming efforts ruined the system beyond repair and the best authors stopped caring and left? I mean, you guys either care about the Foundry or you dont. It doesnt take a genius to outwit anything you all can program. Either get a workforce of real brains to make the foundry respectable, or just say its done.
And like I mentioned before, you all need to come up with something that your player/authors agree is fair, or your new Neverwinter WILL fall flat on its face when you withhold real XP and loot from all the massive player created quests coming in. Cryptic could be a pioneer in creating a relationship with its best trusted players that is world renown. Or, you could stay stubborn and let Foundry die and Neverwinter with it, because you cant program bullet proof exploit police, and you wont trust players who have already proved leaps and bounds they CAN be trusted if you place some trust in them.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
The current rewards structure is already telling people how to play and thus they're playing the shortest missions. I suppose that if my missions provided much better rewards that blew the grinders away, but you had to sit and click slowly through every text box then people who wanted to grind would play them. That would be forcing people to play that type of mission, and I am in no way advocating that.
In fact, the problem is currently the opposite. Longer missions are not on even footing with the short missions at all. They provide a fraction of the rewards for the time spent. So, we're far from story missions being in any way favored. Right now we're still working on getting back onto level ground.
Every single thing from the clickies to the current grinders can be traced back to the rewards. People didn't play the clickies because they thought they were amazing to play, they probably thought they were boring as hell, but they provided a quick source of dilithium/fleet marks. Now it's the grinders, the obvious replacement for the clickies, short as possible, all combat so the most loot is dropped. The truth is we have no idea what people would play in a vacuum because it never has existed. The rewards have been distorting things from the start.
The fact is, Cryptic has said the Foundry is about creating stories. If that is the case, the rewards need to either provide an incentive for doing so, or at the very least not penalize missions that do so. If it's not the case, and "Kill 25x" missions are what is expected, then further work on the Foundry should be put into other aspects of the game, because the Foundry is already more than good enough to create Rumbles and similar missions-- no more work is needed, in that case.
Anyway, that is my opinion. In the end, Cryptic needs to decide what they want from the Foundry, but I will reserve the right to choose whether I continue devoting my time to it. I will say, however, that if the NW Foundry ends up being nothing but missions with 25 goblin groups on an un-customized map, it's going to be a huge shame.
Click here for my Foundry tutorial on Creating A Custom Interior Map.
Like I said in another post. Cryptic pushed the players to the Foundry due to the IOR rewards. That is what they seem to want. And the Authors that made Grinders responded and gave the Players what they wanted, Just like TV. Producers make TV shows that the masses want to watch. Honey Boo-Boo is like #1 show right now ,not Masterpiece Theater on PBS.
I have said before and will say again, I really don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater.
People logging in are what this game needs the most in order to survive in a very competitive market. Yes the current rewards for foundry missions don't help creative story crafters, but does fill a need for I'm sure a large group of the player base. Like it or not we need to keep these players happy in order to keep this game afloat. Not enough players = not enough revenue = no STO
Now a good group of players do enjoy story over reward, and it is currently a real struggle to find story missions. I feel for authors who spend hours and hours crafting their masterpiece only to find it buried amongst paint by numbers lithographs. Their stories need to be easier to find, or like flowers starved of sunlight, will wither and die.
A previous poster suggested the multilayer review/categorization system with recognized authors and Brandon overseeing. This sounds the least prone manipulation and perhaps could be looked into and sorted out. Once this system is solid, then further rewards could be put in place to encourage players normally out for a good time not a long time give these tales a go.
But to play devil's advocate, what type of message would this give in regards to the already in game story missions? Should these player made stories no matter how good be rewarded better than Cryptics' own? What time frame for mission categorization and acceptance would be reasonable in order not to put off authors? How long before volunteer reviewers would tire going through the countless missions to monitor and verify they fit the categories indicated?
So in summary I believe that:
- the current rewards should in no way be further down adjusted or removed.
- an updated foundry search tool in conjunction with an in-house reviewer.
Let's take an advice into account that Worf gives to his son Alexander: "Do not try to fight force with force. You'll lose every time".
So here is the idea: Why not give the reward for playing foundry missions after a certain amout of time has passed (and the player is not marked AFK) regardless of completion. That means to give the player the option to end a mission after let's say 20 minutes or continue and finish it. If the mission is good, more people will want to finish it anyway. And this is the whole idea of f2p. Let people try something and if they like it they stick with it (and eventually buy things). This way clickie missions or other useless grinding missions will no longer be needed and make room for good (story) missions.
I for one would like to see the option of sorting the grinders vs story missions and perhaps a return to the previous foundry settings. I understand the story author's concerns over there missions getting buried by grinders, and there are plenty of players who do enjoy playing story missions, they shouldn't have to wade through tons of grinders trying to find them. I don't see why it would be a problem to have the missions sorted based on the authors choice. I doubt a grinder author would intentionally stick his mission in with the story missions or vice versa so long as neither side was favored in regards to the ease of finding the missions. If that did become an issue a miscategorized flag system could be added.
If the issue is simply one of story missions getting buried then I don't understand what the issue is with adding a category system. If the issue is some foundry authors wanting to try to force us to play there way or not at all, well then that's another matter and the war will continue.
On another note the proposal for a bonus reward system for spotlight missions and I'd say previous spotlights as well is a good one and would actually be enough to get me to play some of them.
Tried to keep it all constructive and peaceful this time
This is coming...soon(tm) :cool:
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
THERE IS ABSOLUTLY NO MOTIVATION FOR ANYONE TO BE IN THE LEAST BIT DISHONEST ABOUT WHAT CATEGORY THEIR MISSION FALLS UNDER. NONE.
The search engine for finding Foundry missions is the key to fixing this situation. And it is not just story vs. grinder that this could fix. A better search UI could allow people to find not simply this or that type of mission but exactly what they are looking to play, i.e. Klingon war missions, mirror universe missions, time travel missions, et al. The inability to sort missions was already a major shortcoming of the Foundry before any of this rancor started.
I will plug this again since people seem more interested in taking umbrage than finding a working solution:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=537821
Ok slightly off topic and not trying to start ANOTHER argument, but are you new to the internet or marketing tricks in general? A certain subset of any demographic will indeeed false promote if they think it will bring them the advantage(whatever it may be, in this case viewership I suppose) they are looking for, particuarly if they have a marketing degree.
The thing with this though they would be punished for lying. I'll give you an example.
AuthorBob makes a mission called "The Vulcan Mind".
It's a non-combat mission about having to enter the mind of a Vulcan and curing him of some mind implant like a lot of Star Trek Episodes.
AuthorBob tries to be sneaky and adds the tags "Farming" and "Combat"
Players who choose to play "The Vulcan Mind" because of these tags are going to rate the mission very poorly because it doesn't meet what they wanted.
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
And it will slide quietly into oblivion. Problem solved.
Oh agreed but the post I was responding too said, I thought, that reviewers dont need to concern themselves with wich category it was listed in. Or did I read it wrong...Is late.
No, my point was that there was no need for people to review categories in the first place because there is no reason anyone would lie about that. If they DID it would be self-correcting in that the mission would never get played again.
Don't know why I didn't think of that, your right the issue would self correct without any new category review system.
It might be fun to make a mission called "Klingon Farming Mission" in which you have been captured by the Klingons and forced to plant 100 or so raddish plants on one of their farms. You know, just to TRIBBLE people off.
LOL I'd consider making a mission like this if it wouldn't get a million 1 stars because of people expecting EZ Lootz.
The story is already forming in my head. Meet a Klingon War Hero who has had enough of fighting and wants to retire on his farm, but the High Council needs his services one more time. Head to his farm and find out he raises Targs and slaughters them via hand to hand combat.
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
I actually really like that.
Ha thanks! If you want to, you can make it. I don't have the time.
Foundry Mission Database
Check out my Foundry missions:
Standalone - The Great Escape - The Galaxy's Fair - Purity I: Of Denial - Return to Oblivion
Untitled Series - Duritanium Man - The Improbable Bulk - Commander Rihan
Farmers say Cryptic intended this change, and wanted to drive people to the IOR mission and that's why they changed this. That the change indicates that the farming missions are what they are intending to support via this decision.
I have seen this claim multiple times.
The Foundry Authors keep saying that Cryptic intended the Foundry for story based missions, as a place that players sick of the grind in the rest of the game can come not have to have the grind. Etc Etc
Everyone thinks that they know exactly what the DEVS intended with their design of the Foundry and the IOR wrappper mission.
We don't know Jack.
And that's the issue.
If we had a statement from Cryptic about
(1) What the intention of the Foundry is ?
(2) What is the intention behind shifting IOR to a 30 minutes cooldown?
most importanty (3) What will be considered "exploits"?
If we knew this , we could stop arguing with each other about who is right and who is wrong, and instead come from a place where we all know what the intent is. We could more productively work together toward creating a solution that serves The Farmers, The Authors, and Cryptic.
Until then, we're just throwing ideas at each other, and getting mad when a proposed idea doesn't meet our exact view of the way things should be. And , of course, they are not gonna match up, because none of us really know what the goal we are shooting for is.
Just my two cents
Thank you for (for the most part) keeping this "on topic".
I think a whole lot of good ideas are being bandied around here, and if we can continue to ignore (and simply report them to the mods) those coming in to simply "grief" this thread, then I honestly think that this community can prove how awesome we can be together.
My input into the discussion :
I actually do not like the idea of a "player driven council" to judge missions for qualifying or whatever. Best of intentions and all that. Power Corrupts. Etc Etc Etc.
I doubt most of us hold Peter Parker's sense of "great power, great responsibility".
I just think such a system has too much potential for abuse.
Just my two cents.
Keep up the great discussion !
I like it!