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  • twg042370twg042370 Member Posts: 2,312 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Option 2 is the only thing that will calm the majority of the player-base down that is ticked off and attacking the Forum Authors.

    Option two would be like buying the screaming toddler the toy it wants so it'll stop being annoying.

    The nerf was deserved because it was an exploit pure and simple. There is no legitimate aspect in the arguments against the nerf. However, a better nerf is needed because the current one takes a tool out of the authors hands.
    <3
  • morgannimorganni Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    nagorak wrote: »
    With a UGC system there are always going to be ways to exploit things if you're motivated enough to find them. We've already basically lost the timid creatures because of that. The next thing that can be nerfed is having friendly groups help you fight enemies. Then we can remove invisible walls because they can allow afk missions by having enemy groups fight each other, and not the player.

    Doesn't really require invisible walls, does it? Visible ones would do the job about as well.

    For that matter, the first mission of the sort I ever saw had nothing stopping the player from messing it up if they felt so inclined, but apparently few people have, or at least not enough to disqualify it from IOR.

    I've actually been wondering if anyone doing story missions has made use of such "hidden machinery" for them. It sounds like there aren't any actual timer functions available in the foundry, but I could easily imagine something like that being used to, say, cause additional guards to appear if the player dawdles too much in what's supposed to be a time-critical raid.
    twg042370 wrote: »
    Option two would be like buying the screaming toddler the toy it wants so it'll stop being annoying.

    ...

    You know, if you want to actually influence people to your point of view, implicitly calling your opponents children might *not* be such a great idea.

    Besides, it's not like this change has that much of an effect.

    -Morgan.
  • kirksplatkirksplat Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    It doesn't require invisible walls any longer. The next gen of AFK grinders has figured something simple out.

    We might lose the patrol functionality.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • nagoraknagorak Member Posts: 882 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    morganni wrote: »
    I've actually been wondering if anyone doing story missions has made use of such "hidden machinery" for them. It sounds like there aren't any actual timer functions available in the foundry, but I could easily imagine something like that being used to, say, cause additional guards to appear if the player dawdles too much in what's supposed to be a time-critical raid.

    You're right that visible walls would probably work fine, too. So, I guess invisible walls are safe! :D

    Yeah, I think a few missions have done stuff like this, or so I've heard. Unfortunately it's not really that practical because you only have access to so many enemies, etc. It's kind of clunky, but it can be done.
    kirksplat wrote: »
    It doesn't require invisible walls any longer. The next gen of AFK grinders has figured something simple out.

    We might lose the patrol functionality.

    See, that hadn't even occurred to me. *sigh* :(

    However, the point remains, if we're going to start losing features because they can be abused for gain, it would be better to remove the motivation (excessive rewards) rather than reverting the Foundry back to its initial release.
  • kirksplatkirksplat Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    nagorak wrote: »
    However, the point remains, if we're going to start losing features because they can be abused for gain, it would be better to remove the motivation (excessive rewards) rather than reverting the Foundry back to its initial release.

    Agreed.

    /10chars
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • bloctoadbloctoad Member Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    nagorak wrote: »
    I really do think toning down the rewards so that the Foundry isn't the fastest way to grind would be helpful. Leave a decent reward, but not one that is amazing. I actually have nothing against Battleship Royal Rumble. Combat missions can be fun, but most of the other grind missions were just ridiculous. Also, we don't need a dozen different rumble missions either, all rated higher than story missions.

    I'm not even going to go into the fact the rest of the game is just about grinding. I wish someone besides PWE had bought Cryptic at this point. There are other F2P models that have proven successful. That's all I'll say about that.

    Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. The town symphony placed an ad in the paper advertising free drinks. In response, a bunch of bikers showed up and started drinking, fighting, belching, revving their engines and otherwise making a nuisance of themselves. The bikers then claimed that the symphony was a great place, but that no one wants to listen to classical music, so instead heavy metal should be played. The problem here wasn't that no one wanted to hear a symphony, it was that the advertising strategy and incentive was not matched to the proper crowd.

    Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. Both sides of the debate are as children seeking the approval from a parent or authority. Both are given a list of chores to complete. The grinder child completes all his tasks as efficiently as possible then happily moves on to something else. The story child moves about augustly performing every action with grandiose detail.

    At the end of the day, the story child has completed but this one task. Both children are given a bag of candy for their efforts but the story child is not satisfied. "I deserve more candy," the story child exclaims. "Look at the magnificent work I did." The parent takes candy from the grinder child and gives it to the story child. The story child is now satiated and their tantrum pacified. The grinder child sighs as he relinquishes his candy knowing the other will spend additional time at the dentist later rather than playing ball.
    Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content."
    Al Rivera hates Klingons
    Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
    All cloaks should be canon.
  • psycoticvulcanpsycoticvulcan Member Posts: 4,160 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    bloctoad wrote: »
    Here's an analogy of what I feel has happened to the Foundry. Both sides of the debate are as children seeking the approval from a parent or authority. Both are given a list of chores to complete. The grinder child completes all his tasks as efficiently as possible then happily moves on to something else. The story child moves about augustly performing every action with grandiose detail.

    At the end of the day, the story child has completed but this one task. Both children are given a bag of candy for their efforts but the story child is not satisfied. "I deserve more candy," the story child exclaims. "Look at the magnificent work I did." The parent takes candy from the grinder child and gives it to the story child. The story child is now satiated and their tantrum pacified. The grinder child sighs as he relinquishes his candy knowing the other will spend additional time at the dentist later rather than playing ball.

    In reality, the "story children" are looking for very different rewards than the "grinder children". The former creates story missions because they enjoy doing so; the latter created grind missions because it's the easiest way to get stuff that's not Foundry-related.

    Solution? Make it so the easiest way to get said stuff is not the Foundry. That satisfies both sides.
    NJ9oXSO.png
    "Critics who say that the optimistic utopia Star Trek depicted is now outmoded forget the cultural context that gave birth to it: Star Trek was not a manifestation of optimism when optimism was easy. Star Trek declared a hope for a future that nobody stuck in the present could believe in. For all our struggles today, we haven’t outgrown the need for stories like Star Trek. We need tales of optimism, of heroes, of courage and goodness now as much as we’ve ever needed them."
    -Thomas Marrone
  • morgannimorganni Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    nagorak wrote: »
    Yeah, I think a few missions have done stuff like this, or so I've heard. Unfortunately it's not really that practical because you only have access to so many enemies, etc. It's kind of clunky, but it can be done.

    Hmmm. I still find myself rather charmed by the idea. I'd probably try doing something like it, but I have no idea for a framing story more detailed than "Invade the enemy fortress guarded by the best regiment!".

    Personally, I'm not sure all the rewards from the foundry are too much, but I think maybe it's too many different things. If it were great for dilithithium and weak on other stuff, or great on fleet marks and weak on other stuff, or something, would it be like this? (Well, given how much of a great gaping pit that needs to be filled with dilithium the fleet system provides, maybe it'd be exactly the same there.)

    What's really interesting is how time-controlled all the foundry rewards are. You can only get so many drops per character per day. You can only get the wrapper rewards every 15 minutes (or 30, if you aren't cycling multiple characters). It begs the question, with the rate of return so thoroughly controlled, how important is it exactly *what* people do to get that return? Of course, one can then argue what level it should be set at, but that's almost like a separate issue. What bothers me is that under this timer structure, story missions are noticably penalized.

    Not that this is unique to the foundry. Part of why it's taking me forever to do the Romulan episodes is that there isn't much I want to be had from them, and (unlike, say, The 2800), I'm just not that interested in the story. Foundry or no foundry, it seems like the most effective content for getting dilithium is also the most repetitive.

    -Morgan.
  • bloctoadbloctoad Member Posts: 660 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    In reality, the "story children" are looking for very different rewards than the "grinder children". The former creates story missions because they enjoy doing so; the latter created grind missions because it's the easiest way to get stuff that's not Foundry-related.

    Solution? Make it so the easiest way to get said stuff is not the Foundry. That satisfies both sides.

    Naturally. But certain elements at this table continue to throw their weight around proclaiming only their flavor of quark exudes acceptable taste. But there's always another spin to be found.
    Jack Emmert: "Starfleet and Klingon. ... So two factions, full PvE content."
    Al Rivera hates Klingons
    Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
    All cloaks should be canon.
  • twg042370twg042370 Member Posts: 2,312 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    morganni wrote: »
    You know, if you want to actually influence people to your point of view, implicitly calling your opponents children might *not* be such a great idea.

    I'm not trying to influence them to my point of view. I'm pointing out that they're acting like children. They are already beyond my influence and any effort to cuddle them into sensibility is wasted.
    <3
  • morgannimorganni Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Now who said those were the people I was talking about influencing?
  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    In reality, the "story children" are looking for very different rewards than the "grinder children". The former creates story missions because they enjoy doing so;

    If that were honestly true, and I wish it was, then what other people do would be a non-issue - creation it self would be the reward of thecreator. Yet there are pages and pages in thsi echo chamber where everything good in the world will be destroyed if we allow "those people" to "ruin everything."
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
  • morgannimorganni Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    atomictiki wrote: »
    If that were honestly true, and I wish it was, then what other people do would be a non-issue - creation it self would be the reward of thecreator.

    This isn't really a realistic expectation though. Everyone likes getting appreciation for things they've worked hard on. (Even grinder authors!)

    There does seem to be a perception that the prevalence of grinders reduces the number of people who will play story-focused missions, thus reducing the amount of appreciation to go around... I don't find the idea all that credible though.

    -Morgan.
  • klytemnestra1klytemnestra1 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    When you create any project in a game like this, you will have to expect there to be negative comments.

    Why people choose to write a negative comment should be left to the viewer or person who wants to write the comment.

    For me, I usually ignore any comment and just play the Foundry story on its own merits. I usually grade the production on style, technical skill, and writing proficiency.

    1. STYLE - Is the producer trying to create their own style or staying with tried and true methods common to Star Trek.

    2. TECHNICAL SKILL - Did the producer have a firm graps of the Foundry capabilities to accomplish what he or she hoped to accomplish.

    3. WRITING PROFICIENCY - Did the producer have a good grasp of writing skills.

    I have found that sometimes producers are creative in idea, but lacking in the ability to execute using the Foundry. So to avoid any bias on my part. I will look up the author or producer and play other missions he or she may have produced. This gives me a sense of where the producer is on a technical level of using the Foundry.

    I take into account what type of audience the project is intended to be reached for the show. For example, is it intended to be a complex story or a simple story.

    I would not even worry about greifers. When people leave these type of comments, it really reflects more on the person leaving the comment. I think that most adult-minded people and not child-minded people will not leave a rude comment even if they hated the story you produced. To leave rude comment really comes across as "petty" and "childish" to most people that I know.

    I make it a point to look at the person leaving a rude comment and see what project they have produced. When I review the mission they produced, if it is garbage, I will make it a point never to play a story produced by them again.

    However, with 2 million captains in the game, I would not even worry about a negative review or comment. If you liked the story you produced and your friends liked the story you produced, that is all that should matter.

    Thank you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    When you create any project in a game like this, you will have to expect there to be negative comments.

    This is true of anything on the internet. You could post "kitten playing withball of string" on youtube and it would get 10 instant thumbsdown.
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
  • stardestroyer001stardestroyer001 Member Posts: 2,615 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I don't use such detailed methods of evaluating a Foundry mission, but I have found that simply assessing the enjoyment of the mission according to its profile type is fair enough.

    (By profile type, I mean grinding missions or story-based missions)
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    Nagorak wrote:
    However, the point remains, if we're going to start losing features because they can be abused for gain, it would be better to remove the motivation (excessive rewards) rather than reverting the Foundry back to its initial release.
    I didn't want to say it earlier but that thought did occur to me. I'm not saying the TYPE of rewards needs to change, just the quantity. Reducing the rewards for a 15-min mission to 1/4 what they are would leave the Foundry with a tangible reward, but not something worth grinding.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
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  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    I didn't want to say it earlier but that thought did occur to me. I'm not saying the TYPE of rewards needs to change, just the quantity. Reducing the rewards for a 15-min mission to 1/4 what they are would leave the Foundry with a tangible reward, but not something worth grinding.

    If nerfed like that would not be worth doing in the first place.

    Let us not forget that current reward is not "excessive" it's already nerfed 500-ish dil from where it used to be.
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 35,236 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    atomictiki wrote: »
    If nerfed like that would not be worth doing in the first place.

    Let us not forget that current reward is not "excessive" it's already nerfed 500-ish dil from where it used to be.
    That is my point exactly. This mess got started when the repeatedble version of IOR was debuted. But it's rewards are probably too high for something you can do once every 20 mins or so....
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • atomictikiatomictiki Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2013
    That is my point exactly. This mess got started when the repeatedble version of IOR was debuted. But it's rewards are probably too high for something you can do once every 20 mins or so....

    Not really if you account for normal playtimes of 1-3hours. That's not a lot of farming, but goodenough for someone to feelgood and progressive, even if done only two or three times. There willalways be obsessive who farm for hours, but thats outlier.

    If anything rewards acrosstheboard since season7 are too low. If you noticed there were weekly economychanges after season7 was thrustupon us until the last IOR change -- whichmeans cryptic was happy with player reception and economicactivity (until timid nerf).

    I don't understand why its a mess. It brought in more audience, and even if most are not into your genre-- some are and that is a net positive in market share for you. And to be honest, grinds are by definition boring -- otherwise theyd be called happyfuntime repeatables. Look at the Foundry listing right now -- are "grinders" dominating? No it isa mix. Players are already getting bored. Is that not what you're looking for?

    EDIT: Let's please continue the discussion in this thread: http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=537351 -- I'd like to keep everything in one place so that feedback on this subject is easy to find for those that I pass it along to. Thanks for understanding. -Brandon
    Leave nerfing to the professionals.
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