I have used BAs on an escort build. It did not put out enough DPS for my taste at all in the end. Even running EPTW1 constantly with APB3, APB2, FaW 3, and BO 2 with an eng captain to mitigate the drain occasionally.
Ironically said toon also had points in threat control and tanked the 3 ESTF elites without even bothering with EPTS. Sadly retired that ship before hive was released.
Beam users are a waste of my, and everyone elses time. I don't personally care if they are used, I even use them on one of my toons ATM, but they are still a waste of time. Granted I also don't really care when people AFK so yeah.
Actually on that note, 2 beam cruisers = 1 AFKer in a matter of speaking. Typically anyway.
Your opinion is dualy noted, as it is just an opinion. I use beam arrays on every ship, even escorts have at least 1 dual forward and 1-2 rear and i destroy enemies quite easily in elite stf's. So saying someone with beam arrays is about useless or a waste of time is being very biased.
I have flown nearly every ship in the game. Escorts tank just fine it is only healing that they can at times run out of.
Infact thanks to their higher avoidance capabilities combined with the ability to have the same exact amount of mitigation escorts make more efficient and superior tanks. The only reason they are not used as main tanks is simply that their is no need for a tank in this game. That and most people being bad at math helps too.
No, you will be more valuable by getting in a ship that does real DPS and save me a minute of time when I'm in your group.
Let me say this one last time. I do not need anyone to tank for me, or to heal for me in ESTFs.
Escort tank is fine as a cruiser? Yeah a cruiser with a bad setup and a bad pilot. But then again, cruiser can do easily more damage than an escort. An escort flown by a bad pilot with a bad layout.
Cannons do greater damage at less power requirement than beams , I think this is tested to be true by a great many people.Anyone who puts Beams on there escort will see the difference in seconds.
They should be equal........ Period
Many escorts can turn so quickly the firing arc limitation is not a limitation
Cannons get Double chances for Procs with Cannon rapid fire
Beams should also have a rapid fire mode to get equal chances to proc
( Beam rapid fire ) the same as cannons
Raise the power drain on cannons to equal Beams is the most logical answer
Balencing/Fixes should work on lowering DPS in the game if possible because players are so overpowered verses the NPCs as it is
Beams and torpedos in turrets At the current DPS of the cannons in turrets
Why are cannons so favored ? Cryptic !
Cannons = Less power requirement More damage plus turrets are all cannons benifiting from cannon special attacks,Cannons also fit in most if not all escorts The fastest most nimble ships in the game .
Jellico....Engineer ground.....Da'val Romulan space Sci
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
How about we go for a simple method of fixing arrays?
Simply give them a cooldown like torpedos - cannonically (uggh), you see the enterprise, ect take a moment to draw the power to fire, so why not use that as an excuse to introduce a cooldown mechanic (faw, of course disables this briefly so all shots can be fired at once, with the normal drain)
that way beam array power doesn't drop as it does now, thus you do more damage on all beam arrays but at the same time is more sustained than the burst effect of the array fire as it is
In other words, beams become sustained, constant damage (as the next beam only fires when the first beam is discharged, ie the contents of the capacitor (in effect only one beam is fired at a time no matter how many are used), (thus for a 900dps beam you'd have 900-900-900-9.. ) as opposed to cannons burst potential where everything is fired quickly then has a lull before firing again (ie, 900900900-pause-900900..)
That way, dhcs and cannon retain overwhelming spike damage while beams become the defacto sustained DoT weapons that do more damage over time but can bring the hurt constantly, while also having potential via fire at will for CSV styled aoe and spike damage via beam overload
How about we go for a simple method of fixing arrays?
Simply give them a cooldown like torpedos - cannonically (uggh), you see the enterprise, ect take a moment to draw the power to fire, so why not use that as an excuse to introduce a cooldown mechanic (faw, of course disables this briefly so all shots can be fired at once, with the normal drain)
that way beam array power doesn't drop as it does now, thus you do more damage on all beam arrays but at the same time is more sustained than the burst effect of the array fire as it is
In other words, beams become sustained, constant damage (as the next beam only fires when the first beam is discharged, ie the contents of the capacitor (in effect only one beam is fired at a time no matter how many are used), (thus for a 900dps beam you'd have 900-900-900-9.. ) as opposed to cannons burst potential where everything is fired quickly then has a lull before firing again (ie, 900900900-pause-900900..)
That way, dhcs and cannon retain overwhelming spike damage while beams become the defacto sustained DoT weapons that do more damage over time but can bring the hurt constantly, while also having potential via fire at will for CSV styled aoe and spike damage via beam overload
Just a thought, mind..
The idea doesn't sound overly to bad, what i'm gathering is a suggested timed chain firing effect or ladder effect as where one beam fires than the next and so on. It would solve some of the wp drain, as it would cause the beam arrays to act more like only a single beam being fired at any given moment. While a sound idea it would cause lengthy delays between beam shots, which could inadvertently hurt overall dps numbers. And also you would still have to deal with distance issues being a factor for those dmg numbers. I find i do fine with the way they are now, not that a newer boff ability or some slight dmg increase wouldn't hurt. Maybe if they devised a new boff skill, like concentrate beam fire allowing for all beam arrays aimed at a single target to gain a fire rate boost+half wp drain for a accuracy penalty and a 1-2min cooldown. There can be all sorts of ideas, it's just if the devs would allow or incorporate such ideas is the problem.
Do I understand you correctly that you say "beams are not there for achieving anything but threat generation which, supported by threat control skill, will make them usable only for tanks" If so, let me remind you that tanks are not needed in this game. So in other words, you think beams are pointless?
Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, then using your own opinion to support your rather poor attempts to twist my words.
Beams are for ships that don't turn fast. That's cruisers. (Science vessels also mostly use beams, but they turn faster. Their point, however, is crowd control, not DPS. They should be using gravity well, tyken's rift, sensor scramble, etc. instead of trying to maximize DPS.)
Tanking is also quite useful in this game. When someone in a cruiser successfully pulls aggro and starts taking the incoming fire for me, I (as an escort pilot) am able to focus less on trying to survive, and more on actually killing things. Don't try to tell me tanks are not needed. Try running Cure Elite or Hive Elite in an escort of your choice and tell me tanks are unnecessary. You'll change your tune after you blow up a couple times while watching the nearest cruiser shrug off the same amount of damage seemingly effortlessly.
Your test is flawed. You may very well have a poor build with not enough skill points to max out the effects of emercency power to x, you didn't use weapon batteries, which is a standard on all good cruiser builds and can compensate massive energy drains, and you didn't made a test with and without an EPS console. If you rotate EPS transfer, EPTw, batteries and nadion inversion, any cruiser can withstand 8 beam arrays AND fire at will II or III, even if i like having a torp too.
I see why your DPS is so low and why mine is fine with my eng/galor! Do you want me to show you in game how a good cruiser build works?
The idea doesn't sound overly to bad, what i'm gathering is a suggested timed chain firing effect or ladder effect as where one beam fires than the next and so on. It would solve some of the wp drain, as it would cause the beam arrays to act more like only a single beam being fired at any given moment. While a sound idea it would cause lengthy delays between beam shots, which could inadvertently hurt overall dps numbers. And also you would still have to deal with distance issues being a factor for those dmg numbers. I find i do fine with the way they are now, not that a newer boff ability or some slight dmg increase wouldn't hurt. Maybe if they devised a new boff skill, like concentrate beam fire allowing for all beam arrays aimed at a single target to gain a fire rate boost+half wp drain for a accuracy penalty and a 1-2min cooldown. There can be all sorts of ideas, it's just if the devs would allow or incorporate such ideas is the problem.
Yeah, a ladder effect - thats what I was thinking... Maybe then how about, like the embassy consoles, each ba/dbb comes with, say, a 2% modifier for all matching beam weapons when used in 'ladder mode' (I'm just pulling numbers at random, not suggesting)
So say you have 6 beam arrays/dbbs, each doing x damage naturally
then as you have 5+one firing, you get an 10% modifier - so on the firing beam array, you have 1100dpv instead of 1000 - due to the ladder, each shot having this 1100 dpv value, making up for dps lost by making it a ladder
(it'd also help guide newbies from rainbows...bonus! )
Escort tank is fine as a cruiser? Yeah a cruiser with a bad setup and a bad pilot. But then again, cruiser can do easily more damage than an escort. An escort flown by a bad pilot with a bad layout.
Proper tanking is about 3 factors.
1- Damage Avoidance, or how much damage can you not be hit by. In STO that is bonus defense and escorts pack the most.
2- Damage Mitigation, or how much you reduce the damage of each hit by. In STO shield tanking is what is done and shield resist can be taken to the cap easily by any ship class. No ship has an advantage here.
3- Sustain, or how much you heal/restore by self only heals or regen. Ironically Sci Vessels win out here (hence why the orb weaver is by numbers when min/maxed the strongest tank). Cruisers do regen 10% more passive shield but that is it and the bonus defense will avoid more damage than the regen will provide.
Conclusion? Cruisers are tanks because their is nothing else for them to do. They do not have any mechanical reasons to be tanks. The PvP community is for the most part intelligent enough to realize this and tasks them as healers which they can perform as although once again not as good as a Sci Vessel that has a touch of Engineering Boffs. In high level PvP it is no easier or difficult to kill an escort as it is a cruiser. Both need their defensive capabilities stripped before the rewarding boom.
Strangely enough in PvP the cruiser/escort differences in tanking, or defensive capabilities, work out very well in a equal via different method way. It is sad the same cannot be said for the offensive capabilities of the ships in PvE.
Just realized someone is going to say 'but cruisers have more eng boff abilities to use for tanking' which will require me to respond with a 'those are better used on the escort that is tanking especially considering the best one, extend shields, cannot be used upon yourself'. Figured I'd get that out of the way.
because i feel that my Bortas'qu with Turrets and rapid fire is doing really really nice while my Odyssey with Beams... is taking it's time to destroy stuff.
i'm not a DPS numbers counter, i play by feel, if it feels good it works for me, if not then i need to change stuff.
Just realized someone is going to say 'but cruisers have more eng boff abilities to use for tanking' which will require me to respond with a 'those are better used on the escort that is tanking especially considering the best one, extend shields, cannot be used upon yourself'. Figured I'd get that out of the way.
Last I checked, I was able to use extend shields on myself when I flew a carrier... :cool:
Yeah, a ladder effect - thats what I was thinking... Maybe then how about, like the embassy consoles, each ba/dbb comes with, say, a 2% modifier for all matching beam weapons when used in 'ladder mode' (I'm just pulling numbers at random, not suggesting)
So say you have 6 beam arrays/dbbs, each doing x damage naturally
then as you have 5+one firing, you get an 10% modifier - so on the firing beam array, you have 1100dpv instead of 1000 - due to the ladder, each shot having this 1100 dpv value, making up for dps lost by making it a ladder
(it'd also help guide newbies from rainbows...bonus! )
Like i said before these are not bad ideas in general, some advise is to pay close attention to wp management, and not necessarily by using boff skills to always do so as it does cut down on the ammount of healing capacity to your own ship.
Limiting the ammount of beam arrays focused on a target can make those arrays stronger dps wise for the ammount of time they are firing. Also it doesn't hurt to get up close and personal with a beam ship, as all energy weapons become more affective at closer ranges.
You may notice an increase in dmg ammounts by doing so, effectively if firing multiple beam arrays tends to drain you below 75-90wp before next cycle than to many are being used.
Also consider a dual beam uses the same ammount of wp as a single when fired with other weapons, that's why escorts can get away with dhc's mixed with turrets as they both counteract each others weapon power drain.
These are some examples when fired with other weapons, DHC-12, DC-10, C-10, Turret-8, DBA-10, BA-10.
So effectively 6BA's and a cutting beam would in a sense drain -58wp if all fired together, where as 4dhc's and 3-4 turrets would in a sense drain -60-68wp depending on if there is a 4th rear capable slot.
While these are not to be considered as true numbers, they are just examples to give you a baseline idea of how weapons in firing rotations affect one another, and your wp number.
Also don't forget than when using CRF it does cause each bolt fired to do less dmg, than if they were fired without it.
It's an exchange of faster firing capability for a bit less dmg per shot, scatter volley gets away without the loss of each bolt being lessened for flinging bolts in an aoe with, accuracy to single target being the draw back.
My first problem comparing DHCs/DCs/DBBs to arrays are arcs. The first set are all forward arc weapons, and fire down the same arc that a forward torp would. Meanwhile, arrays are "optimized" for the 70 degree broadside arcs, unfortunately the "standard" torpedo 90' arc is outside this broadside arc, requiring the loss of rear-array DPS while a torp is being brought to bear, launched, and then the return to broadside position.
Note - the Regent's 180' torpedo has 35' of arc within the broadside arc, so it's only slightly more challenging to keep a target on the "full 8 weapons" (using 3 arrays / 180 torp fore 4 arrays rear) than it is keeping a target within the 45' DC/DHC lethal cone...
Secondly, these tests almost never seem to compare the range breaks - It seems the comparisons are always "up close and personal" so that the DHCs are at max damge, never see indications that beams might be more damaging than the standard cannon build at longer ranges - If I understand correctly, the range breaks are 2km (optimal cannon), 5km (beam array's first drop?) 9km (borderline range).
These two facts, to me, might go a long ways to gathering "more accurate" average DPS numbers, etc. and then appropriate changes can be considered...
Detecting big-time "anti-old-school" bias here. NX? Lobi. TOS/TMP Connie? Super-promotion-box. (aka the two hardest ways to get ships) Excelsior & all 3 TNG "big hero" ships? C-Store. Please Equalize...
To rob a line: [quote: Mariemaia Kushrenada] Forum Posting is much like an endless waltz. The three beats of war, peace and revolution continue on forever. However, opinions will change upon the reading of my post.[/quote]
So if I am to understand all of this correctly, SOME people here want the Beam Arrays to do as much DPS as a DHC but they want it to keep the firing arc... which would make the BA completely overpowered when placed on a Cruiser. You would have a BA doing the DPS of a DHC on a 250' firing arc.. you want to talk abot AFK'ers being bad now? Just wait until they do what DHC does, with 8 BA broadsiding.
That's the problem: they have thought about this. Quite a bit.
This is just another in a long line of "nerf escorts and buff cruisers!" threads because cruiser captains don't like being inferior to smaller ships. :rolleyes:
Wonder how it would look if we had a 'Beam Array Rapid Fire' ability? Like 'Fire at Will', but on a single target.
The thing about cannons is, when they are really dealing out the damage, they aren't generally firing at their normal rate; which makes the differences between the weapon types seem much more pronounced. While I suspect that the weapon types could do with a balance pass (what couldn't really?), I wonder if one of the biggest problems isn't the abilities that can be used on them.
That's the problem: they have thought about this. Quite a bit.
This is just another in a long line of "nerf escorts and buff cruisers!" threads because cruiser captains don't like being inferior to smaller ships. :rolleyes:
Actually I'm a sci in a sci boat that torps and mines but from personal experience of just watching, the fact an escort with dhcs and turrets can do more damage than a cruiser with eight arrays broadsiding (which is a lot harder than 'point straight at opponent, hit buff keybind') is a little off balance
That's the problem: they have thought about this. Quite a bit.
This is just another in a long line of "nerf escorts and buff cruisers!" threads because cruiser captains don't like being inferior to smaller ships. :rolleyes:
And why should they be inferior? I'm not saying ba's should be as powerful as cannons, all i did was suggest different weapons layouts and maybe an idea for future boff skills. But since you bring the subject up, yes escorts could use a shldstr and hull nerf impo.
And why should they be inferior? I'm not saying ba's should be as powerful as cannons, all i did was suggest different weapons layouts and maybe an idea for future boff skills. But since you bring the subject up, yes escorts could use a shldstr and hull nerf impo.
Ships aren't inferior, but the average captain skills required to fly a cruiser dealing some DPS is superior to the one required to fly an average escort.
Anyway people asking to get a buff to beams are asking to get a bit of everything, dps, tanking, without any flaw, and tend to ignore the concepts of teamwork. They want the perfect ship to solo endgame team content and that's it. They are the kind of guys who enjoy having directed energy modulation instead of extend shields and thus fly worthless ships in elite instances. If they played their roles as healers there would be NO dps issues, anywhere, because escort captains could slot more dps abilities.
My big problem with broadside idea is that it fights the design of torps and many sci abilities.
I'm starting to think dbb is the way to go with cruisers.
There is nothing wrong with broadsiding, just don't let that be your only source of dmg. The effectiveness of a broadside with multi arryays firing is mostly a tac advantage to drain an enemies shields a bit quicker. But relying on broadside alone is never a good idea, as cruisers tend to manuever slower thus keeping a single shield at a vunerable angle, and prevents in most cases a viable opening for a torpedo to slip in and cause some dmg.
You do realize that such a power already exists and is called "beam overload"? :rolleyes:
No, 'Beam Overload' is just a single, more powerful hit; like a torpedo that sucks a giant lump out of your weapon energy. If there were a 'Cannon Overload', it would not be the same thing as 'Cannon Rapid Fire' (or even be similar to it).
You do realize that such a power already exists and is called "beam overload"? :rolleyes:
Read a little further into the before mentioned idea of focused fire beams, it was a suggestion for a new boff ability allowing all facing beam arrays to focus rapid beam shots at half wp cost for a acc penalty and a 1-2min cooldown. BO is a single powerful beam shot at the cost of huge wp energy, two different concepts.
Ships aren't inferior, but the average captain skills required to fly a cruiser dealing some DPS is superior to the one required to fly an average escort.
Anyway people asking to get a buff to beams are asking to get a bit of everything, dps, tanking, without any flaw, and tend to ignore the concepts of teamwork. They want the perfect ship to solo endgame team content and that's it. They are the kind of guys who enjoy having directed energy modulation instead of extend shields and thus fly worthless ships in elite instances. If they played their roles as healers there would be NO dps issues, anywhere, because escort captains could slot more dps abilities.
Fine in theory, but most of this game is played solo by the majority of its players; and even where teams are required, you can never be certain that you will have a balanced party unless you use a pre-made team. What use is a party of healers? For that matter, what use is a party of pure dps ships with no heals? You want everyone to just stop PUGing or soloing? Not happening.
anyone who moans about weapons power of 8 nrg weapons is taking too many drugs, for a start there is a reason that there are torpedo's its just a shame such a low number of ppl are aware of the actual dmg torps do i only use 4 nrg weapons on a tac setup, dual beam, 2 turrets and a single beam on the rear and i do more dps than anyone iv met about 10k per volley and thats with just 1 torpedo. I suggest instead of moaning about stuff that isnt sto's problem and is actually your own lack of intelligence that you do something about it by using different weapons setups and learning what stuff really does. Iv even used 1 single beam array on a sci ship and still brought it tank style demolishing everything in my path. Its not the weapons dude... its you Even after the last patch i find the weapons are ok and to be honest they should be left exactly how they are dmg wise. who uses 8 beams anyway except for beginners
My first problem comparing DHCs/DCs/DBBs to arrays are arcs. The first set are all forward arc weapons, and fire down the same arc that a forward torp would. Meanwhile, arrays are "optimized" for the 70 degree broadside arcs, unfortunately the "standard" torpedo 90' arc is outside this broadside arc, requiring the loss of rear-array DPS while a torp is being brought to bear, launched, and then the return to broadside position.
Note - the Regent's 180' torpedo has 35' of arc within the broadside arc, so it's only slightly more challenging to keep a target on the "full 8 weapons" (using 3 arrays / 180 torp fore 4 arrays rear) than it is keeping a target within the 45' DC/DHC lethal cone...
Secondly, these tests almost never seem to compare the range breaks - It seems the comparisons are always "up close and personal" so that the DHCs are at max damge, never see indications that beams might be more damaging than the standard cannon build at longer ranges - If I understand correctly, the range breaks are 2km (optimal cannon), 5km (beam array's first drop?) 9km (borderline range).
These two facts, to me, might go a long ways to gathering "more accurate" average DPS numbers, etc. and then appropriate changes can be considered...
Actually that info is out of date. Cannons loose damage at 1m. But at max range they still deal 40% of their damage while beams deal 60%. While that does look like beams would be better in reality due to their energy drain mechanics combined with bad boff abilities and lower base DPS a DHC/Turret will out damage BA/BA even at maximum range. Speaking of boff abilities did you know beam abilities throw all accuracy bonuses out the frelling window? Nice to know eh?
So if I am to understand all of this correctly, SOME people here want the Beam Arrays to do as much DPS as a DHC but they want it to keep the firing arc... which would make the BA completely overpowered when placed on a Cruiser. You would have a BA doing the DPS of a DHC on a 250' firing arc.. you want to talk abot AFK'ers being bad now? Just wait until they do what DHC does, with 8 BA broadsiding.
Think about what you're recommending. Please.
If I can tank 90% as well as a cruiser with an escort why is it out of the question for a cruiser, or beam boats in general, to deal 90% of an escorts damage?
And having double the optimum arc while less than half the turn rate makes that improved arc a wash. Not to mention I find it much more enjoyable to have the enemy in my arc right off the bat at the beginning of an engagement than having to maneuver around to get them there. Finally I also find it easier to stay away from say the gate in ISE while keeping my guns on target by going forward/backward than flying in circles. It also helps to keep my weapons firing on a single shield facing of the target the entire time instead of a new one every ten seconds.
Comments
Your opinion is dualy noted, as it is just an opinion. I use beam arrays on every ship, even escorts have at least 1 dual forward and 1-2 rear and i destroy enemies quite easily in elite stf's. So saying someone with beam arrays is about useless or a waste of time is being very biased.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Escort tank is fine as a cruiser? Yeah a cruiser with a bad setup and a bad pilot. But then again, cruiser can do easily more damage than an escort. An escort flown by a bad pilot with a bad layout.
They should be equal........ Period
Many escorts can turn so quickly the firing arc limitation is not a limitation
Cannons get Double chances for Procs with Cannon rapid fire
Beams should also have a rapid fire mode to get equal chances to proc
( Beam rapid fire ) the same as cannons
Raise the power drain on cannons to equal Beams is the most logical answer
Balencing/Fixes should work on lowering DPS in the game if possible because players are so overpowered verses the NPCs as it is
Beams and torpedos in turrets At the current DPS of the cannons in turrets
Why are cannons so favored ? Cryptic !
Cannons = Less power requirement More damage plus turrets are all cannons benifiting from cannon special attacks,Cannons also fit in most if not all escorts The fastest most nimble ships in the game .
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
Simply give them a cooldown like torpedos - cannonically (uggh), you see the enterprise, ect take a moment to draw the power to fire, so why not use that as an excuse to introduce a cooldown mechanic (faw, of course disables this briefly so all shots can be fired at once, with the normal drain)
that way beam array power doesn't drop as it does now, thus you do more damage on all beam arrays but at the same time is more sustained than the burst effect of the array fire as it is
In other words, beams become sustained, constant damage (as the next beam only fires when the first beam is discharged, ie the contents of the capacitor (in effect only one beam is fired at a time no matter how many are used), (thus for a 900dps beam you'd have 900-900-900-9.. ) as opposed to cannons burst potential where everything is fired quickly then has a lull before firing again (ie, 900900900-pause-900900..)
That way, dhcs and cannon retain overwhelming spike damage while beams become the defacto sustained DoT weapons that do more damage over time but can bring the hurt constantly, while also having potential via fire at will for CSV styled aoe and spike damage via beam overload
Just a thought, mind..
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The idea doesn't sound overly to bad, what i'm gathering is a suggested timed chain firing effect or ladder effect as where one beam fires than the next and so on. It would solve some of the wp drain, as it would cause the beam arrays to act more like only a single beam being fired at any given moment. While a sound idea it would cause lengthy delays between beam shots, which could inadvertently hurt overall dps numbers. And also you would still have to deal with distance issues being a factor for those dmg numbers. I find i do fine with the way they are now, not that a newer boff ability or some slight dmg increase wouldn't hurt. Maybe if they devised a new boff skill, like concentrate beam fire allowing for all beam arrays aimed at a single target to gain a fire rate boost+half wp drain for a accuracy penalty and a 1-2min cooldown. There can be all sorts of ideas, it's just if the devs would allow or incorporate such ideas is the problem.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Nope, you're putting words in my mouth, then using your own opinion to support your rather poor attempts to twist my words.
Beams are for ships that don't turn fast. That's cruisers. (Science vessels also mostly use beams, but they turn faster. Their point, however, is crowd control, not DPS. They should be using gravity well, tyken's rift, sensor scramble, etc. instead of trying to maximize DPS.)
Tanking is also quite useful in this game. When someone in a cruiser successfully pulls aggro and starts taking the incoming fire for me, I (as an escort pilot) am able to focus less on trying to survive, and more on actually killing things. Don't try to tell me tanks are not needed. Try running Cure Elite or Hive Elite in an escort of your choice and tell me tanks are unnecessary. You'll change your tune after you blow up a couple times while watching the nearest cruiser shrug off the same amount of damage seemingly effortlessly.
So you would be of the opinion that Beams and Cannons need a balance pass...
I see why your DPS is so low and why mine is fine with my eng/galor! Do you want me to show you in game how a good cruiser build works?
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Yeah, a ladder effect - thats what I was thinking... Maybe then how about, like the embassy consoles, each ba/dbb comes with, say, a 2% modifier for all matching beam weapons when used in 'ladder mode' (I'm just pulling numbers at random, not suggesting)
So say you have 6 beam arrays/dbbs, each doing x damage naturally
then as you have 5+one firing, you get an 10% modifier - so on the firing beam array, you have 1100dpv instead of 1000 - due to the ladder, each shot having this 1100 dpv value, making up for dps lost by making it a ladder
(it'd also help guide newbies from rainbows...bonus!
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Proper tanking is about 3 factors.
1- Damage Avoidance, or how much damage can you not be hit by. In STO that is bonus defense and escorts pack the most.
2- Damage Mitigation, or how much you reduce the damage of each hit by. In STO shield tanking is what is done and shield resist can be taken to the cap easily by any ship class. No ship has an advantage here.
3- Sustain, or how much you heal/restore by self only heals or regen. Ironically Sci Vessels win out here (hence why the orb weaver is by numbers when min/maxed the strongest tank). Cruisers do regen 10% more passive shield but that is it and the bonus defense will avoid more damage than the regen will provide.
Conclusion? Cruisers are tanks because their is nothing else for them to do. They do not have any mechanical reasons to be tanks. The PvP community is for the most part intelligent enough to realize this and tasks them as healers which they can perform as although once again not as good as a Sci Vessel that has a touch of Engineering Boffs. In high level PvP it is no easier or difficult to kill an escort as it is a cruiser. Both need their defensive capabilities stripped before the rewarding boom.
Strangely enough in PvP the cruiser/escort differences in tanking, or defensive capabilities, work out very well in a equal via different method way. It is sad the same cannot be said for the offensive capabilities of the ships in PvE.
with chained high energy buffs
vs.
a Turret Cruiser, 7 Turrets + 1 Torp
witch chained rapid fire/scatter volley
because i feel that my Bortas'qu with Turrets and rapid fire is doing really really nice while my Odyssey with Beams... is taking it's time to destroy stuff.
i'm not a DPS numbers counter, i play by feel, if it feels good it works for me, if not then i need to change stuff.
Last I checked, I was able to use extend shields on myself when I flew a carrier... :cool:
Like i said before these are not bad ideas in general, some advise is to pay close attention to wp management, and not necessarily by using boff skills to always do so as it does cut down on the ammount of healing capacity to your own ship.
Limiting the ammount of beam arrays focused on a target can make those arrays stronger dps wise for the ammount of time they are firing. Also it doesn't hurt to get up close and personal with a beam ship, as all energy weapons become more affective at closer ranges.
You may notice an increase in dmg ammounts by doing so, effectively if firing multiple beam arrays tends to drain you below 75-90wp before next cycle than to many are being used.
Also consider a dual beam uses the same ammount of wp as a single when fired with other weapons, that's why escorts can get away with dhc's mixed with turrets as they both counteract each others weapon power drain.
These are some examples when fired with other weapons, DHC-12, DC-10, C-10, Turret-8, DBA-10, BA-10.
So effectively 6BA's and a cutting beam would in a sense drain -58wp if all fired together, where as 4dhc's and 3-4 turrets would in a sense drain -60-68wp depending on if there is a 4th rear capable slot.
While these are not to be considered as true numbers, they are just examples to give you a baseline idea of how weapons in firing rotations affect one another, and your wp number.
Also don't forget than when using CRF it does cause each bolt fired to do less dmg, than if they were fired without it.
It's an exchange of faster firing capability for a bit less dmg per shot, scatter volley gets away without the loss of each bolt being lessened for flinging bolts in an aoe with, accuracy to single target being the draw back.
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Note - the Regent's 180' torpedo has 35' of arc within the broadside arc, so it's only slightly more challenging to keep a target on the "full 8 weapons" (using 3 arrays / 180 torp fore 4 arrays rear) than it is keeping a target within the 45' DC/DHC lethal cone...
Secondly, these tests almost never seem to compare the range breaks - It seems the comparisons are always "up close and personal" so that the DHCs are at max damge, never see indications that beams might be more damaging than the standard cannon build at longer ranges - If I understand correctly, the range breaks are 2km (optimal cannon), 5km (beam array's first drop?) 9km (borderline range).
These two facts, to me, might go a long ways to gathering "more accurate" average DPS numbers, etc. and then appropriate changes can be considered...
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I think he has his power setting to 25, and is just trying to incite a rage-fest.
Move along, Troll.
Think about what you're recommending. Please.
That's the problem: they have thought about this. Quite a bit.
This is just another in a long line of "nerf escorts and buff cruisers!" threads because cruiser captains don't like being inferior to smaller ships. :rolleyes:
The thing about cannons is, when they are really dealing out the damage, they aren't generally firing at their normal rate; which makes the differences between the weapon types seem much more pronounced. While I suspect that the weapon types could do with a balance pass (what couldn't really?), I wonder if one of the biggest problems isn't the abilities that can be used on them.
Actually I'm a sci in a sci boat that torps and mines but from personal experience of just watching, the fact an escort with dhcs and turrets can do more damage than a cruiser with eight arrays broadsiding (which is a lot harder than 'point straight at opponent, hit buff keybind') is a little off balance
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And why should they be inferior? I'm not saying ba's should be as powerful as cannons, all i did was suggest different weapons layouts and maybe an idea for future boff skills. But since you bring the subject up, yes escorts could use a shldstr and hull nerf impo.
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You do realize that such a power already exists and is called "beam overload"? :rolleyes:
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
Ships aren't inferior, but the average captain skills required to fly a cruiser dealing some DPS is superior to the one required to fly an average escort.
Anyway people asking to get a buff to beams are asking to get a bit of everything, dps, tanking, without any flaw, and tend to ignore the concepts of teamwork. They want the perfect ship to solo endgame team content and that's it. They are the kind of guys who enjoy having directed energy modulation instead of extend shields and thus fly worthless ships in elite instances. If they played their roles as healers there would be NO dps issues, anywhere, because escort captains could slot more dps abilities.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
I'm starting to think dbb is the way to go with cruisers.
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There is nothing wrong with broadsiding, just don't let that be your only source of dmg. The effectiveness of a broadside with multi arryays firing is mostly a tac advantage to drain an enemies shields a bit quicker. But relying on broadside alone is never a good idea, as cruisers tend to manuever slower thus keeping a single shield at a vunerable angle, and prevents in most cases a viable opening for a torpedo to slip in and cause some dmg.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
No, 'Beam Overload' is just a single, more powerful hit; like a torpedo that sucks a giant lump out of your weapon energy. If there were a 'Cannon Overload', it would not be the same thing as 'Cannon Rapid Fire' (or even be similar to it).
Read a little further into the before mentioned idea of focused fire beams, it was a suggestion for a new boff ability allowing all facing beam arrays to focus rapid beam shots at half wp cost for a acc penalty and a 1-2min cooldown. BO is a single powerful beam shot at the cost of huge wp energy, two different concepts.
Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Fine in theory, but most of this game is played solo by the majority of its players; and even where teams are required, you can never be certain that you will have a balanced party unless you use a pre-made team. What use is a party of healers? For that matter, what use is a party of pure dps ships with no heals? You want everyone to just stop PUGing or soloing? Not happening.
Actually that info is out of date. Cannons loose damage at 1m. But at max range they still deal 40% of their damage while beams deal 60%. While that does look like beams would be better in reality due to their energy drain mechanics combined with bad boff abilities and lower base DPS a DHC/Turret will out damage BA/BA even at maximum range. Speaking of boff abilities did you know beam abilities throw all accuracy bonuses out the frelling window? Nice to know eh?
If I can tank 90% as well as a cruiser with an escort why is it out of the question for a cruiser, or beam boats in general, to deal 90% of an escorts damage?
And having double the optimum arc while less than half the turn rate makes that improved arc a wash. Not to mention I find it much more enjoyable to have the enemy in my arc right off the bat at the beginning of an engagement than having to maneuver around to get them there. Finally I also find it easier to stay away from say the gate in ISE while keeping my guns on target by going forward/backward than flying in circles. It also helps to keep my weapons firing on a single shield facing of the target the entire time instead of a new one every ten seconds.