And why post on the forums of games you don't like when you can play games you do?
Oh wait.
Ohh my entire logic structure has collapsed and i am defeated, i bow to you with your superior logic and wit of awesomeness....
Oh wait......
I still hang around the forums because....
1) I still like to remain informed about STO's progress, lack of progress, nerfs and so on.
b) the flame wars on the forums amuses me, it's great free entertainment that i don't have to grind the same few missions for an assload of dilithium for....
4) i still jump into the game on occasion, when i said "i moved on" i didn't mean "i quit"... two completely different things...
Boo ya, consider yourself countered, put that in your pipe and smoke it
Ohh my entire logic structure has collapsed and i am defeated, i bow to you with your superior logic and wit of awesomeness....
Oh wait......
I still hang around the forums because....
1) I still like to remain informed about STO's progress, lack of progress, nerfs and so on.
b) the flame wars on the forums amuses me, it's great free entertainment that i don't have to grind the same few missions for an assload of dilithium for....
4) i still jump into the game on occasion, when i said "i moved on" i didn't mean "i quit"... two completely different things...
Boo ya, consider yourself countered, put that in your pipe and smoke it
If you change STO to Jenny, that would be considered stalking. :cool:
And it's still more stuff in a year than we got in a year and a half under Atari.
Perspective, that's what it's all about.
In which case your perspective is wrong .
If we compare the first year of F2P , w/the first year of STO under Atari -- Atari comes out light years ahead in terms of story , pvp , stf's , kdf , FE's , you name it .
That was the year that the Dev creativity & enthusiasm made the game shine .
But hey , if mindless grind is your game , then who knows , maybe then you are right .
Now go gather some more stuff . Go go go . 'Cause hey ... it's "free" right ? :cool:
"Free" like the Borg more like it .
If we compare the first year of F2P , w/the first year of STO under Atari -- Atari comes out light years ahead in terms of story , pvp , stf's , kdf , FE's , you name it .
But hey , if mindless grind is your game , then who knows , maybe then you are right .
Now go gather some more stuff . Go go go . 'Cause hey ... it's "free" right ? :cool:
"Free" like the Borg more like it .
We don't like facts around here, chum. Now please hate on the game for not being tailored to you like you're supposed to.
Actually we do like facts around here , and all I have said can be backed up by the Engineering Reports of 2010 .
And yes , while I admit that The Year oh Hell was largely not Cryptic's fault , what we had before it and what we got after it were two vastly different things .
You enjoyed the lump of Tholian flavored grind so much that you were happy to get a second serving of Romulan flavored grind (?) -- and all of this spread across your Starbase grind ?
Bon appetite .
Me ?
I likes me some new STF every few months , along w/maybe a pvp map , a new FE , a Klingon mission now and then , along w/constant upgrades and fixes .
Same EP . Same company . Different owner . Vastly different game development .
Let me guess , you already forgot the shock we were in when D'Angelo came out with the "one FE per year , maybe two" announcement ?
Or the "Dilithium will become THE currency to ease & replace all this crazy number of other currencys ..." . :rolleyes:
A bitter reminder of the removal of the first 20-some levels of KDF play.
That was a sad day for me, indeed.
However, I'm glad STO's still around. Glad to see so many familiar faces on the boards, in game, and in OPVP chat. Glad to see the new blood, as well.
Hopefully, the worst is behind us, the best is yet to come, and the KDF content will come back to us and re-spark the fires of the KDF that have been smoldering in angst far, far too long.
That smart alec comment was so smart it got right by me .
Care to explain ?
snip
There is a reason why the FE don't work on their own....by the time they added new FE we get them done in a few hours, then what we are back at square one yelling for more.
PVP well Cryptic does not want to support PVP, and having some bootcamp which was done by the players is not really backing pvp, no one should have to take an wannabe Online college course for Pvp to enjoy it....we do need new maps and new stuff, but under both PWE and Atari they don't want to deal with that. Till I see actual dev time put into pvp then I will see that Pvp is actually getting real Cryptic backing.
Just because it's not the content you want does not mean it's not content, I don't know any MMO that does not have grind, because if they did not have some sort of grind well then you will be done and never log back in again. This game has soooo much more to do now then when it started.
And it's still more stuff in a year than we got in a year and a half under Atari.
Perspective, that's what it's all about.
I was no big fan of Atari, but we got 4 FE under their reign (3 of them within 6 months)
So it's kind of ...
6 Months Atari = 3 FE (15 Missions with rich Story Content, and even some side Missions like Breen Dailys)
vs.
1 Year PWE = 10-20 short Missions to grind yourself to Death and 5 short Cutscenes
[C-Store / Lobi - Stuff stayed pretty much the same, except we got less CStore and more Lobi/Lockbox - Stuff]
Of course there was the year of fail, but that pretty much happened because of the transition from Atari to PWE .... STO was floating dead in Space between Atari and PWE (if you get the picture)
In a Perfect World (*chuckle*) Atari would have kept STO and we might have like 10-20 Featured Episode Series by now ... not trying to say here Atari keeping STO was on the table, but just don't see the "We got way more stuff from PWE than Atari" argument ... the PWE Model might be necessary to keep STO alive ... but we didn't get more stuff ...
Imho the PWE-Stuff just looks big, because it takes longer to grind through it... but it really isn't ... so yes ... Perspective, thats what it's all about ...
There is a reason why the FE don't work on their own....by the time they added new FE we get them done in a few hours, then what we are back at square one yelling for more.
And it took me like 2h of Epohh Tagging to get to Romulan T5, would have preferred just ONE Episode of a FE instead ... still yelling for more (Story) Content ... pretty much done chasing bunnies, playing Skyrim instead :P till I get that One-Of Anniversary FE
Season 8 with "at least one FE", is pretty much my last hope, for enjoying this game for more like 10min/day ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
People seem to be forgetting that under PWE we've also had an entire format and business model change, three very large, very unpopular changes (Lockboxes, lobi store, and Season Six) and one very mixed results change (Season Seven and Reputation), four events, two STF's, half a dozen dailies, 40+ ships, new gear, a Featured Episode Series, a one off Episode, most of which was highly experimental and likely to (and often did) fail.
But! Failure is good! That means that the Devs are in a situation where they are confident enough to take risks! And that ladies and gentlemen is what we should hope for. Because the moment the Devs stop taking risks, and stop making stupid mistakes is the moment they're afraid to innovate.
People seem to be forgetting that under PWE we've also had an entire format and business model change, three very large, very unpopular changes (Lockboxes, lobi store, and Season Six) and one very mixed results change (Season Seven and Reputation), four events, two STF's, half a dozen dailies, 40+ ships, new gear, a Featured Episode Series, a one off Episode, most of which was highly experimental and likely to (and often did) fail.
But! Failure is good! That means that the Devs are in a situation where they are confident enough to take risks! And that ladies and gentlemen is what we should hope for. Because the moment the Devs stop taking risks, and stop making stupid mistakes is the moment they're afraid to innovate.
And that's when the game dies.
Agreed, whilst we may not have had the same amount of mission content, the amount of new systems and gameplay methods can easily dwarf what Atari allowed in.
Atari wanted to play it safe, PWE is prepared to take risks for a profit, stuff like DOffs, Starbases, Reputation Systems are big changes to the game, factor in that, the Dilithium store, the complete restructuring of the story missions, lockboxes and the events system along with the restructuring of the economy and ingame currencies (Yes, we are better off with currencies now than we were before F2P) and it shows that they want to take risks with the franchise.
Star Trek has done many things over the years that were big risks at the time, killing Spock in WoK, Star Trek V, redesigning the Klingons, moving from a spaceship with a new alien of the week format to a space station with more long term storylines and Q.
Without those risks, Star Trek wouldn't be the series it is today, we wouldn't have the fond memories most of us have of Scotty (She canna take any more cap'in), Bones (Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor not a _____), Picard (Make it so Number One), Sisko (Not on my station), Quark (Did someone say latinum?) and even Janeway (Set a course for home).
You may not like what's been added, but this game stands more of a chance of being the best game it can be now than it ever did under Atari because PWE is prepared to allow Cryptic to take the risks it needs to take to get there.
Atari wanted to play it safe, PWE is prepared to take risks for a profit, stuff like DOffs, Starbases, Reputation Systems are big changes to the game, factor in that, the Dilithium store, the complete restructuring of the story missions, lockboxes and the events system along with the restructuring of the economy and ingame currencies (Yes, we are better off with currencies now than we were before F2P) and it shows that they want to take risks with the franchise.
Are you serious ... how is copy pasting the F2P Model from like every other MMO out there (grind grind grind), a bigger risk than introducing FE's, Foundry etc, which are/were kind of the only thing being unique about STO
I might agree with you on the DOFF System, but the bad news here is ... they started working on this during Atari ... just like the last FE ... it just HAD to be finished and was pretty late, probably because PWE had other priorities ...
PWE is pretty much playing the Safe Card, to make the best profit ... which might be necessary none the less ... just look at the Gaming Industry ... noone is taking risks for profit, it's just not how it works ... besides Kickstarter perhaps, but well it's not risky if you have the money upfront ... all the other guys stick with "Call of Duty - Part 42 - Innovation Gone" and stuff like this, just like STO now ...
Patch Notes : Resolved an Issue, where people would accidently experience Fun.
It's the most fun F2P game currently. It's not perfect; no game is. But it's FUN.
Don't tell that to those over at PWI as I use to play it.
I started in closed beta in day one and was not a fan of pay to play as most games are going this to mico trans.I recreated my Tac after 2 years and knew that this would go this way eventually.
To all the naysayers this game would of died if it didn't go free.You could read the old threads about this over at V.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Age StarTrek-Gamers Administrator
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer Star Trek Gamers
Are you serious ... how is copy pasting the F2P Model from like every other MMO out there (grind grind grind), a bigger risk than introducing FE's, Foundry etc, which are/were kind of the only thing being unique about STO
I might agree with you on the DOFF System, but the bad news here is ... they started working on this during Atari ... just like the last FE ... it just HAD to be finished and was pretty late, probably because PWE had other priorities ...
PWE is pretty much playing the Safe Card, to make the best profit ... which might be necessary none the less ... just look at the Gaming Industry ... noone is taking risks for profit, it's just not how it works ... besides Kickstarter perhaps, but well it's not risky if you have the money upfront ... all the other guys stick with "Call of Duty - Part 42 - Innovation Gone" and stuff like this, just like STO now ...
So including systems like Reputation and Fleet Starbases, both of which have been slammed pretty heavily isn't a risk?
So including systems like Reputation and Fleet Starbases, both of which have been slammed pretty heavily isn't a risk?
Nope because it already works in like 500 other MMOs ... besides Fleet Starbases and Reputation is kind of the same system (so ZERO risk from A to ... everything gets slammed in a way on the Internet, must be your first day in an MMO Forum ;P ... Atari was slammed all the time, so what is your point here exactly ??
Most of the "Internet-People" will tell you COD is a piece of garbage as well, but it was the most successful PC-Game none the less, earning 1 Billion in 8 days
The whole point of the F2P Model is to reduce risks btw [a lot more people paying (and probably playing) less, instead of few people paying more] ... thats why most of the Sub-MMOs had to change ... they went down the F2P path, probaly because they HAD to ... not because they wanted to, believing it's the newest most innovative business model out there, and noone else has ever done it ...
That's like saying grocery shopping is riskier, than flying to the moon ...
There is a reason why the FE don't work on their own....by the time they added new FE we get them done in a few hours, then what we are back at square one yelling for more.
That is only partially true .
The "grind" was the missing element in STO, but if what we got in the past year is any indication of STO's future , then the grind will be the predominant element from now on .
"We look forward to adding more Reputations systems" (Al Rivera)
And I don't want the grind to take the front seat .
And it's ok for me to say so .
PVP well Cryptic does not want to support PVP,
Then how come the first talk about PVP after PWE took over was "PWE is very much into PVP and want's to see that developed in STO" (DStahl) ?
And how about "we're putting one of our top Dev (Gozer) on it" (DStahl) ?
What exactly happened to all that ?
(yes , I know what happened ... well as much as we know anything that goes on in the "transparent" place that Cryptic is these days -- the point is they left us hanging ... again . You'd think that after The Year of Hell they'd show us a little more respect in that regard ... .)
and having some bootcamp which was done by the players is not really backing pvp,
Agreed , but it's still a step in the right direction (by the fans) , in a vacuum where Cryptic seems to take no meaningful steps at all .
If things continue this way , I expect to see some form of STO PVP Turnaments (hopefully "pro" and "casual") organized by fans , so that both casual PVP players and the "PVP Fleets" will have something to "joust" for .
I'd be willing to donate prizes 4 that !
we do need new maps and new stuff, but under both PWE and Atari they don't want to deal with that.
Errr , didn't we get like 2 maps under Atari ?
I know we got zero maps under PWE ... . :mad:
Just because it's not the content you want does not mean it's not content,
That's fair , but from my perspective , I'm not being irrational .
I'm not asking for the moon , nor am I asking for a ship with 19 nacells and 15 saucers .
What I am asking for is some of the stuff we've gotten from the same company , and the same EP . It's not "impossible" until you buy the company line and think it's "suddenly impossible" -- as in "it's suddenly imposible to make FE's and quality STF's that tell a story and don't rely on high difficulty as a crutch" .
Asking for new PVP maps or Kdf content is not asking for the moon either ... , until you believe it is -- which some forum goers now seem to believe.
Now suddenly "it's too expensive" .
Funny, and here i was thinking that they were making more money then before .
Silly me .
This game has soooo much more to do now then when it started.
When it started or when it went F2P ?
Because as of when it went F2P ... , well , I'll just let another poster tell what I think :
6 Months Atari = 3 FE (15 Missions with rich Story Content, and even some side Missions like Breen Dailys)
vs.
1 Year PWE = 10-20 short Missions to grind yourself to Death and 5 short Cutscenes
(snip)
Imho the PWE-Stuff just looks big, because it takes longer to grind through it... but it really isn't ...
People seem to be forgetting that under PWE we've also had an entire format and business model change, three very large, very unpopular changes (Lockboxes, lobi store, and Season Six) and one very mixed results change (Season Seven and Reputation), four events, two STF's, half a dozen dailies, 40+ ships, new gear, a Featured Episode Series, a one off Episode, most of which was highly experimental and likely to (and often did) fail.
But! Failure is good! That means that the Devs are in a situation where they are confident enough to take risks! And that ladies and gentlemen is what we should hope for. Because the moment the Devs stop taking risks, and stop making stupid mistakes is the moment they're afraid to innovate.
And that's when the game dies.
I'm pretty sure the last innovations this game had (Bridge Officers who accompany you on missions/quests, and Space/Planetside gameplay) occured firmly under the Atari dynasty.
Agreed, whilst we may not have had the same amount of mission content, the amount of new systems and gameplay methods can easily dwarf what Atari allowed in.
Atari wanted to play it safe, PWE is prepared to take risks for a profit, stuff like DOffs, Starbases, Reputation Systems are big changes to the game, factor in that, the Dilithium store, the complete restructuring of the story missions, lockboxes and the events system along with the restructuring of the economy and ingame currencies (Yes, we are better off with currencies now than we were before F2P) and it shows that they want to take risks with the franchise.
Star Trek has done many things over the years that were big risks at the time, killing Spock in WoK, Star Trek V, redesigning the Klingons, moving from a spaceship with a new alien of the week format to a space station with more long term storylines and Q.
Without those risks, Star Trek wouldn't be the series it is today, we wouldn't have the fond memories most of us have of Scotty (She canna take any more cap'in), Bones (Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor not a _____), Picard (Make it so Number One), Sisko (Not on my station), Quark (Did someone say latinum?) and even Janeway (Set a course for home).
You may not like what's been added, but this game stands more of a chance of being the best game it can be now than it ever did under Atari because PWE is prepared to allow Cryptic to take the risks it needs to take to get there.
Not sure what you mean by risks (lockboxes?) but trust me, if Cryptic doesn't march to PWE's tune, they'll shut them down faster than a transwarp drive.
Some facts, it didn't fail as a Sub model, if it had Atari would have turned it into F2P a lot sooner (CO went F2P after just over a year), it was simply that PWE uses the F2P model on all their other games and wanted STO to be the same.
Also the currencies before F2P were a lot worse, there were marks for every rank of play (a different mark for each rank) and no way to gain or convert marks of lower ranks. I believe there were 15 different currencies at one point. Besides, currencies are a necessary evil in MMOs to regulate the equipment and keep things fair, (i.e. those who work harder get bigger and better things).
The promises the devs made before F2P haven't been forgotten just because the devs don't talk about them, and as for the rest, people want more customisation, and I still don't know where all these complaints about crippling server lag is coming from, I play for 4-6 hours a day on average and never see any connecting from the UK.
Some truths. It did fail as a sub, that's why Atari was so hot to unload it. You know why WOW still has a sub? Because it's still viable to all Blizzard's shareholders as a sub. In other words, it still makes money. STO got a cookie cutter Romulan grind zone, WOW got panda land, complete with playable pandas. PWE was hot for STO, because it was to be their crown jewel. Problem is, even if you're the rat king, you're still a rat.
Yes the original currencies were confusing. That's why Cryptic had the brainstorm to get rid of them all, save ECs, and introduce Dilithium, and Latinum, which were supposed to be all the game needed. Presently, Latinum, a currency most races in Trek value universally, and which most Ferengi would set themselves on fire for, is as worthless as 80s era junk bonds, (unless you're a hologram collector) replaced by Cryptic's uncannon, brainfart, Lobis, and they continue to add more currencies, with every "expansion" they release. Why is latinum worthless? Because it's readily available in-game, and thereby unsuitable to the F2P model.
If you don't suffer from the lag that most players do, you're one of the lucky ones. Lucky, in that you have a playable, cash grab, grindfest, at your disposal. Enjoy it while it lasts, eventually the ageing servers will catch up with you, too.
Atari wasn't hot to sell off STO because the subscription plan was failing. Atari was hot to sell off Cryptic (as well as shutting down pretty much all of their non-phone/web app properties) because Atari was in deep, deep, debt and poor management was driving them even further down the tubes. STO was pretty much the only thing Atari had of ANY VALUE, and they were too deep in the hole to dig themselves out of it with only one real asset. Any thing they couldn't sell, they just shut down and closed shop on.
Now, aside from that, subscription plans for MMOs are an outdated, archaic pay plan that was bound to fall someday at any rate. With subscription plans, there's not enough room in the market for people to shill out a regular fee for a game that they're not going to be constantly playing every hour of the day (and if your're paying a subscription for a game and not playing it every hour of the day, then every hour you're not playing that game is an hour that you're throwing money away). Newer games that released with subscriptions in general were not surviving, primarily because of that pay structure. People wouldn't join because of the barrier to entry, and would especially refuse to pay ANOTHER subscription when they're already paying one (or enough that trying out another game was "out of their budget"). If people aren't at least trying new games, they're not supporting new games, and the new games fail, and then the industry as a whole fails. And it was failing.
I think the past year's releases have shown that people are not putting up with subscriptions any more. There is more diversity in online games, more diversity in gamers, and people are more free to try out games and invest their time and money in the ones they like without being "shackled" to a subscription or feeling like they're wasting their money when they're not able to play for the entire period that their subscription paid for.
Atari wasn't hot to sell off STO because the subscription plan was failing. Atari was hot to sell off Cryptic (as well as shutting down pretty much all of their non-phone/web app properties) because Atari was in deep, deep, debt and poor management was driving them even further down the tubes. STO was pretty much the only thing Atari had of ANY VALUE, and they were too deep in the hole to dig themselves out of it with only one real asset. Any thing they couldn't sell, they just shut down and closed shop on.
Now, aside from that, subscription plans for MMOs are an outdated, archaic pay plan that was bound to fall someday at any rate. With subscription plans, there's not enough room in the market for people to shill out a regular fee for a game that they're not going to be constantly playing every hour of the day (and if your're paying a subscription for a game and not playing it every hour of the day, then every hour you're not playing that game is an hour that you're throwing money away). Newer games that released with subscriptions in general were not surviving, primarily because of that pay structure. People wouldn't join because of the barrier to entry, and would especially refuse to pay ANOTHER subscription when they're already paying one (or enough that trying out another game was "out of their budget"). If people aren't at least trying new games, they're not supporting new games, and the new games fail, and then the industry as a whole fails. And it was failing.
I think the past year's releases have shown that people are not putting up with subscriptions any more. There is more diversity in online games, more diversity in gamers, and people are more free to try out games and invest their time and money in the ones they like without being "shackled" to a subscription or feeling like they're wasting their money when they're not able to play for the entire period that their subscription paid for.
Here's the deal. If STO had been half as popular as WOW, or EVE, which, are still solvent under the sub model, it would still be an Atari holding. Last year's crop of MMOs didn't do well as subs, because they were basically WOW clones, and "me too" efforts. You're right in the regard that people are reluctant to leave time, and money investments, to start over in something that is, essentially, the same. Most gamers aren't adverse to paying for an enjoyable experience. Most of the STO playerbase are "Johnny Come Lately" F2Pers. For them, the older, episodic, content, is still new, and exciting, especially for a freebie, that basically gives away, the whole game. Most older players, that have done everything 10 times over, like me, find STO, in it's current state, a boring, tepid, grindhouse, cash grab. Many have left for greener pastures. Ergo, simple formula, if all thats left are people who aren't going to spend money on the game (and let's face it, you really don't have to, the whole thing is free, and you can level to the end, without buying a single shiny) and you're not charging subs, eventually, when the F2Pers get bored, the game will die.
Here's the deal. If STO had been half as popular as WOW, or EVE, which, are still solvent under the sub model, it would still be an Atari holding.
How much money Cryptic was bringing in to Atari is a matter of public record. It was in fact around half the total revenues of CCP, makers of EVE. So, assuming the vast majority of revenues for Cryptic were from STO, your "if this had happened, that would have happened" is kind of misplaced since the "this" happened.
CCP's costs were smaller, since their game requires much less infrastructure and they were spending a lot less on other projects than Atari was.
Atari's problem was they went into debt to fund game development, expecting WoW-like numbers. When they got EVE-like numbers from one game and much worse from others, they decided getting out of the MMO market completely and sending their debt with it was a better move than trying to figure out how to do it right.
PWE has experience doing it right.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
How much money Cryptic was bringing in to Atari is a matter of public record. It was in fact around half the total revenues of CCP, makers of EVE. So, assuming the vast majority of revenues for Cryptic were from STO, your "if this had happened, that would have happened" is kind of misplaced since the "this" happened.
CCP's costs were smaller, since their game requires much less infrastructure and they were spending a lot less on other projects than Atari was.
Atari's problem was they went into debt to fund game development, expecting WoW-like numbers. When they got EVE-like numbers from one game and much worse from others, they decided getting out of the MMO market completely and sending their debt with it was a better move than trying to figure out how to do it right.
PWE has experience doing it right.
I concede on the Atari thing. However, I still feel that if Cryptic doesn't get their act together, STO isn't going to last long after the current crop of F2Pers level, and realize there's nothing to do, except chase epohhs around, and wait for the next feature series. They need to fully integrate the top tier Foundry missions into the game. Give players meaningful rewards for completing them. They need to increase the social aspects of the game. Have more events. But not stupid grinds that players need to do a gazillion times with each of their 9+ toons. Give away more bank space as prizes, or even Zen points. They need to let players customize their ship interiors with items they can buy with latinum, the still largely, static, currency in the game. They need to let players promote Boffs to captain, and send them off on duty assignments in their lower tier ships. They want to make everyone a Fleet Admiral, so let them do admiral stuff, which doesn't include rounding up small, furry, animals. The game would be so cool with a strategic level meta-game where you could give orders to your captain, "Go blockade this planet", "Go investigate this planet", and so forth. Well, we'll see, if PWE can do it right, or not.
They need to fully integrate the top tier Foundry missions into the game. Give players meaningful rewards for completing them.
This I agree with, and it would add a ton of content in and require very little work on Cryptics part.
But with the fleet marks and dil rewards for the repeatable, which you can do every 30 minutes. You get a pretty decent reward as is.
They need to increase the social aspects of the game. Have more events.
Social aspects are best done by giving people areas for social events and letting the players do what they wish with them. Between the Starbase, Embassy and such, there's more then enough areas for social stuff.
Give away more bank space as prizes, or even Zen points.
Giving away stuff like that won't keep people around.
They need to let players customize their ship interiors with items they can buy with latinum, the still largely, static, currency in the game.
This would require a fairly massive amount of work. They've said many times they'd like to do something like this but it's a ton of work.
They need to let players promote Boffs to captain
Turning the whole game into a even larger version of the Doff system isn't the way to go.
But is the larger point being missed in all these discussions of mechanics? Zoom out and think "big picture".
Even three years of STO, there is still a very large disconnect between what the hardcore Trek fans want (a full-blown, expansive, immersive Trek experience...think "the love child of Bridge Commander and Elite Force, on steroids") and what STO has decided to be and has decided is profitable (a standard F2P MMO with a passable Star Trek skin).
STO is currently straddling the line between the two, built on a foundation of the former with gameplay and almost all future development decidedly favoring the latter. Season 5 was the point the game pivoted, and many of the hardcore Trek fans from 2010 don't enjoy the F2P aspects. That's why you see the F2P players complaining that the Trek fans always complain, and why the Trek fans can't understand why the F2P players are happy with the status quo.
After three years, I wonder if both Star Trek Online and I have changed and fundamentally outgrown each other?
Delta Rising is the best expansion ever and the players love it! No, seriously! ...Why are you laughing so hard?
Now, aside from that, subscription plans for MMOs are an outdated, archaic pay plan that was bound to fall someday at any rate. With subscription plans, there's not enough room in the market for people to shill out a regular fee for a game that they're not going to be constantly playing every hour of the day (and if your're paying a subscription for a game and not playing it every hour of the day, then every hour you're not playing that game is an hour that you're throwing money away). Newer games that released with subscriptions in general were not surviving, primarily because of that pay structure. People wouldn't join because of the barrier to entry, and would especially refuse to pay ANOTHER subscription when they're already paying one (or enough that trying out another game was "out of their budget"). If people aren't at least trying new games, they're not supporting new games, and the new games fail, and then the industry as a whole fails. And it was failing.
This train of thought is why it cost MORE to play MMO's today compared to just a few years ago. So called F2P games cost magnitudes more to play than sub based models. With sub based models, you pay XX amount, then sub for 2yrs while the next exp is in development, rinse repeat. Total cost around XX + (MO rate * 24)
F2P you pay for everything with little to no new content, and praise the GODS when they patch something that has been broken for 3 yrs. What little new content you fet in F2P, is gone through like ****E through a goose.
Keep your F2P model, id rather pay a sub to a company that keeps it word and does what it says.
This train of thought is why it cost MORE to play MMO's today compared to just a few years ago. So called F2P games cost magnitudes more to play than sub based models. With sub based models, you pay XX amount, then sub for 2yrs while the next exp is in development, rinse repeat. Total cost around XX + (MO rate * 24)
F2P you pay for everything with little to no new content, and praise the GODS when they patch something that has been broken for 3 yrs. What little new content you fet in F2P, is gone through like ****E through a goose.
Keep your F2P model, id rather pay a sub to a company that keeps it word and does what it says.
Unlike most games you don't need to spend money on this game at all, so I don't see how you're spending a magnitude of money in STO unless you want everything now, and want lockbox stuff that you don't need ASAP.
So called F2P games cost magnitudes more to play than sub based models.
This is completely untrue.
So far I've paid a grand total of $40 since starting to play STO as a F2P game. That would get me, about 3 months of subscription, and I've been playing for a lot longer then 3 months.
The only reason you to spend money in a F2P game, is for vanity items, or because you want something and don't want to spend the time it takes to grind what ever is required to buy it.
I bought a Odyssey, and some zen to buy costumes. I've also done the Dil grind and converted that into zen.
There are currently 2 sub based games out there, WoW and EVE. But to compare the two is hardly accurate IMO. EVE players are not your typical MMO types, and spend as much if not way more playing EVE on top of their sub as any F2P game.
WoW... Well WoW has always been the exception, and the only reason it's making it as a sub is because most people playing it either don't know about the F2P options out there, or are so tied to WoW that playing something else is not an option.
Comments
Ohh my entire logic structure has collapsed and i am defeated, i bow to you with your superior logic and wit of awesomeness....
Oh wait......
I still hang around the forums because....
1) I still like to remain informed about STO's progress, lack of progress, nerfs and so on.
b) the flame wars on the forums amuses me, it's great free entertainment that i don't have to grind the same few missions for an assload of dilithium for....
4) i still jump into the game on occasion, when i said "i moved on" i didn't mean "i quit"... two completely different things...
Boo ya, consider yourself countered, put that in your pipe and smoke it
If you change STO to Jenny, that would be considered stalking. :cool:
In which case your perspective is wrong .
If we compare the first year of F2P , w/the first year of STO under Atari -- Atari comes out light years ahead in terms of story , pvp , stf's , kdf , FE's , you name it .
That was the year that the Dev creativity & enthusiasm made the game shine .
But hey , if mindless grind is your game , then who knows , maybe then you are right .
Now go gather some more stuff . Go go go . 'Cause hey ... it's "free" right ? :cool:
"Free" like the Borg more like it .
You mean the first month got it.
We don't like facts around here, chum. Now please hate on the game for not being tailored to you like you're supposed to.
That smart alec comment was so smart it got right by me .
Care to explain ?
Actually we do like facts around here , and all I have said can be backed up by the Engineering Reports of 2010 .
And yes , while I admit that The Year oh Hell was largely not Cryptic's fault , what we had before it and what we got after it were two vastly different things .
You enjoyed the lump of Tholian flavored grind so much that you were happy to get a second serving of Romulan flavored grind (?) -- and all of this spread across your Starbase grind ?
Bon appetite .
Me ?
I likes me some new STF every few months , along w/maybe a pvp map , a new FE , a Klingon mission now and then , along w/constant upgrades and fixes .
Same EP . Same company . Different owner . Vastly different game development .
Let me guess , you already forgot the shock we were in when D'Angelo came out with the "one FE per year , maybe two" announcement ?
Or the "Dilithium will become THE currency to ease & replace all this crazy number of other currencys ..." . :rolleyes:
That was a sad day for me, indeed.
However, I'm glad STO's still around. Glad to see so many familiar faces on the boards, in game, and in OPVP chat. Glad to see the new blood, as well.
Hopefully, the worst is behind us, the best is yet to come, and the KDF content will come back to us and re-spark the fires of the KDF that have been smoldering in angst far, far too long.
A toast! To the undiscovered country . . .
There is a reason why the FE don't work on their own....by the time they added new FE we get them done in a few hours, then what we are back at square one yelling for more.
PVP well Cryptic does not want to support PVP, and having some bootcamp which was done by the players is not really backing pvp, no one should have to take an wannabe Online college course for Pvp to enjoy it....we do need new maps and new stuff, but under both PWE and Atari they don't want to deal with that. Till I see actual dev time put into pvp then I will see that Pvp is actually getting real Cryptic backing.
Just because it's not the content you want does not mean it's not content, I don't know any MMO that does not have grind, because if they did not have some sort of grind well then you will be done and never log back in again. This game has soooo much more to do now then when it started.
I was no big fan of Atari, but we got 4 FE under their reign (3 of them within 6 months)
So it's kind of ...
6 Months Atari = 3 FE (15 Missions with rich Story Content, and even some side Missions like Breen Dailys)
vs.
1 Year PWE = 10-20 short Missions to grind yourself to Death and 5 short Cutscenes
[C-Store / Lobi - Stuff stayed pretty much the same, except we got less CStore and more Lobi/Lockbox - Stuff]
Of course there was the year of fail, but that pretty much happened because of the transition from Atari to PWE .... STO was floating dead in Space between Atari and PWE (if you get the picture)
In a Perfect World (*chuckle*) Atari would have kept STO and we might have like 10-20 Featured Episode Series by now ... not trying to say here Atari keeping STO was on the table, but just don't see the "We got way more stuff from PWE than Atari" argument ... the PWE Model might be necessary to keep STO alive ... but we didn't get more stuff ...
Imho the PWE-Stuff just looks big, because it takes longer to grind through it... but it really isn't ... so yes ... Perspective, thats what it's all about ...
And it took me like 2h of Epohh Tagging to get to Romulan T5, would have preferred just ONE Episode of a FE instead ... still yelling for more (Story) Content ... pretty much done chasing bunnies, playing Skyrim instead :P till I get that One-Of Anniversary FE
Season 8 with "at least one FE", is pretty much my last hope, for enjoying this game for more like 10min/day ...
But! Failure is good! That means that the Devs are in a situation where they are confident enough to take risks! And that ladies and gentlemen is what we should hope for. Because the moment the Devs stop taking risks, and stop making stupid mistakes is the moment they're afraid to innovate.
And that's when the game dies.
Agreed, whilst we may not have had the same amount of mission content, the amount of new systems and gameplay methods can easily dwarf what Atari allowed in.
Atari wanted to play it safe, PWE is prepared to take risks for a profit, stuff like DOffs, Starbases, Reputation Systems are big changes to the game, factor in that, the Dilithium store, the complete restructuring of the story missions, lockboxes and the events system along with the restructuring of the economy and ingame currencies (Yes, we are better off with currencies now than we were before F2P) and it shows that they want to take risks with the franchise.
Star Trek has done many things over the years that were big risks at the time, killing Spock in WoK, Star Trek V, redesigning the Klingons, moving from a spaceship with a new alien of the week format to a space station with more long term storylines and Q.
Without those risks, Star Trek wouldn't be the series it is today, we wouldn't have the fond memories most of us have of Scotty (She canna take any more cap'in), Bones (Damnit Jim, I'm a doctor not a _____), Picard (Make it so Number One), Sisko (Not on my station), Quark (Did someone say latinum?) and even Janeway (Set a course for home).
You may not like what's been added, but this game stands more of a chance of being the best game it can be now than it ever did under Atari because PWE is prepared to allow Cryptic to take the risks it needs to take to get there.
Are you serious ... how is copy pasting the F2P Model from like every other MMO out there (grind grind grind), a bigger risk than introducing FE's, Foundry etc, which are/were kind of the only thing being unique about STO
I might agree with you on the DOFF System, but the bad news here is ... they started working on this during Atari ... just like the last FE ... it just HAD to be finished and was pretty late, probably because PWE had other priorities ...
PWE is pretty much playing the Safe Card, to make the best profit ... which might be necessary none the less ... just look at the Gaming Industry ... noone is taking risks for profit, it's just not how it works ... besides Kickstarter perhaps, but well it's not risky if you have the money upfront ... all the other guys stick with "Call of Duty - Part 42 - Innovation Gone" and stuff like this, just like STO now ...
Don't tell that to those over at PWI as I use to play it.
I started in closed beta in day one and was not a fan of pay to play as most games are going this to mico trans.I recreated my Tac after 2 years and knew that this would go this way eventually.
To all the naysayers this game would of died if it didn't go free.You could read the old threads about this over at V.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
Star Trek Gamers
So including systems like Reputation and Fleet Starbases, both of which have been slammed pretty heavily isn't a risk?
Nope because it already works in like 500 other MMOs ... besides Fleet Starbases and Reputation is kind of the same system (so ZERO risk from A to
Most of the "Internet-People" will tell you COD is a piece of garbage as well, but it was the most successful PC-Game none the less, earning 1 Billion in 8 days
The whole point of the F2P Model is to reduce risks btw [a lot more people paying (and probably playing) less, instead of few people paying more] ... thats why most of the Sub-MMOs had to change ... they went down the F2P path, probaly because they HAD to ... not because they wanted to, believing it's the newest most innovative business model out there, and noone else has ever done it ...
That's like saying grocery shopping is riskier, than flying to the moon ...
PS : What he said ... ... but just because something HAD to change, I don't need to like it, and it's not automatically "better" ...
That is only partially true .
The "grind" was the missing element in STO, but if what we got in the past year is any indication of STO's future , then the grind will be the predominant element from now on .
"We look forward to adding more Reputations systems" (Al Rivera)
And I don't want the grind to take the front seat .
And it's ok for me to say so .
Then how come the first talk about PVP after PWE took over was "PWE is very much into PVP and want's to see that developed in STO" (DStahl) ?
And how about "we're putting one of our top Dev (Gozer) on it" (DStahl) ?
What exactly happened to all that ?
(yes , I know what happened ... well as much as we know anything that goes on in the "transparent" place that Cryptic is these days -- the point is they left us hanging ... again . You'd think that after The Year of Hell they'd show us a little more respect in that regard ... .)
Agreed , but it's still a step in the right direction (by the fans) , in a vacuum where Cryptic seems to take no meaningful steps at all .
If things continue this way , I expect to see some form of STO PVP Turnaments (hopefully "pro" and "casual") organized by fans , so that both casual PVP players and the "PVP Fleets" will have something to "joust" for .
I'd be willing to donate prizes 4 that !
Errr , didn't we get like 2 maps under Atari ?
I know we got zero maps under PWE ... . :mad:
That's fair , but from my perspective , I'm not being irrational .
I'm not asking for the moon , nor am I asking for a ship with 19 nacells and 15 saucers .
What I am asking for is some of the stuff we've gotten from the same company , and the same EP . It's not "impossible" until you buy the company line and think it's "suddenly impossible" -- as in "it's suddenly imposible to make FE's and quality STF's that tell a story and don't rely on high difficulty as a crutch" .
Asking for new PVP maps or Kdf content is not asking for the moon either ... , until you believe it is -- which some forum goers now seem to believe.
Now suddenly "it's too expensive" .
Funny, and here i was thinking that they were making more money then before .
Silly me .
When it started or when it went F2P ?
Because as of when it went F2P ... , well , I'll just let another poster tell what I think :
So I hope you really liked those cutscenes ... .
I'm pretty sure the last innovations this game had (Bridge Officers who accompany you on missions/quests, and Space/Planetside gameplay) occured firmly under the Atari dynasty.
Not sure what you mean by risks (lockboxes?) but trust me, if Cryptic doesn't march to PWE's tune, they'll shut them down faster than a transwarp drive.
Some truths. It did fail as a sub, that's why Atari was so hot to unload it. You know why WOW still has a sub? Because it's still viable to all Blizzard's shareholders as a sub. In other words, it still makes money. STO got a cookie cutter Romulan grind zone, WOW got panda land, complete with playable pandas. PWE was hot for STO, because it was to be their crown jewel. Problem is, even if you're the rat king, you're still a rat.
Yes the original currencies were confusing. That's why Cryptic had the brainstorm to get rid of them all, save ECs, and introduce Dilithium, and Latinum, which were supposed to be all the game needed. Presently, Latinum, a currency most races in Trek value universally, and which most Ferengi would set themselves on fire for, is as worthless as 80s era junk bonds, (unless you're a hologram collector) replaced by Cryptic's uncannon, brainfart, Lobis, and they continue to add more currencies, with every "expansion" they release. Why is latinum worthless? Because it's readily available in-game, and thereby unsuitable to the F2P model.
If you don't suffer from the lag that most players do, you're one of the lucky ones. Lucky, in that you have a playable, cash grab, grindfest, at your disposal. Enjoy it while it lasts, eventually the ageing servers will catch up with you, too.
Now, aside from that, subscription plans for MMOs are an outdated, archaic pay plan that was bound to fall someday at any rate. With subscription plans, there's not enough room in the market for people to shill out a regular fee for a game that they're not going to be constantly playing every hour of the day (and if your're paying a subscription for a game and not playing it every hour of the day, then every hour you're not playing that game is an hour that you're throwing money away). Newer games that released with subscriptions in general were not surviving, primarily because of that pay structure. People wouldn't join because of the barrier to entry, and would especially refuse to pay ANOTHER subscription when they're already paying one (or enough that trying out another game was "out of their budget"). If people aren't at least trying new games, they're not supporting new games, and the new games fail, and then the industry as a whole fails. And it was failing.
I think the past year's releases have shown that people are not putting up with subscriptions any more. There is more diversity in online games, more diversity in gamers, and people are more free to try out games and invest their time and money in the ones they like without being "shackled" to a subscription or feeling like they're wasting their money when they're not able to play for the entire period that their subscription paid for.
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Forums are a tiny percentage of the player base, and skew negative because happy people play the game instead of posting on the forums.
Here's the deal. If STO had been half as popular as WOW, or EVE, which, are still solvent under the sub model, it would still be an Atari holding. Last year's crop of MMOs didn't do well as subs, because they were basically WOW clones, and "me too" efforts. You're right in the regard that people are reluctant to leave time, and money investments, to start over in something that is, essentially, the same. Most gamers aren't adverse to paying for an enjoyable experience. Most of the STO playerbase are "Johnny Come Lately" F2Pers. For them, the older, episodic, content, is still new, and exciting, especially for a freebie, that basically gives away, the whole game. Most older players, that have done everything 10 times over, like me, find STO, in it's current state, a boring, tepid, grindhouse, cash grab. Many have left for greener pastures. Ergo, simple formula, if all thats left are people who aren't going to spend money on the game (and let's face it, you really don't have to, the whole thing is free, and you can level to the end, without buying a single shiny) and you're not charging subs, eventually, when the F2Pers get bored, the game will die.
We have quite a bit of new content and there is many things to do.
How much money Cryptic was bringing in to Atari is a matter of public record. It was in fact around half the total revenues of CCP, makers of EVE. So, assuming the vast majority of revenues for Cryptic were from STO, your "if this had happened, that would have happened" is kind of misplaced since the "this" happened.
CCP's costs were smaller, since their game requires much less infrastructure and they were spending a lot less on other projects than Atari was.
Atari's problem was they went into debt to fund game development, expecting WoW-like numbers. When they got EVE-like numbers from one game and much worse from others, they decided getting out of the MMO market completely and sending their debt with it was a better move than trying to figure out how to do it right.
PWE has experience doing it right.
I concede on the Atari thing. However, I still feel that if Cryptic doesn't get their act together, STO isn't going to last long after the current crop of F2Pers level, and realize there's nothing to do, except chase epohhs around, and wait for the next feature series. They need to fully integrate the top tier Foundry missions into the game. Give players meaningful rewards for completing them. They need to increase the social aspects of the game. Have more events. But not stupid grinds that players need to do a gazillion times with each of their 9+ toons. Give away more bank space as prizes, or even Zen points. They need to let players customize their ship interiors with items they can buy with latinum, the still largely, static, currency in the game. They need to let players promote Boffs to captain, and send them off on duty assignments in their lower tier ships. They want to make everyone a Fleet Admiral, so let them do admiral stuff, which doesn't include rounding up small, furry, animals. The game would be so cool with a strategic level meta-game where you could give orders to your captain, "Go blockade this planet", "Go investigate this planet", and so forth. Well, we'll see, if PWE can do it right, or not.
This I agree with, and it would add a ton of content in and require very little work on Cryptics part.
But with the fleet marks and dil rewards for the repeatable, which you can do every 30 minutes. You get a pretty decent reward as is.
Social aspects are best done by giving people areas for social events and letting the players do what they wish with them. Between the Starbase, Embassy and such, there's more then enough areas for social stuff.
Giving away stuff like that won't keep people around.
This would require a fairly massive amount of work. They've said many times they'd like to do something like this but it's a ton of work.
Turning the whole game into a even larger version of the Doff system isn't the way to go.
Even three years of STO, there is still a very large disconnect between what the hardcore Trek fans want (a full-blown, expansive, immersive Trek experience...think "the love child of Bridge Commander and Elite Force, on steroids") and what STO has decided to be and has decided is profitable (a standard F2P MMO with a passable Star Trek skin).
STO is currently straddling the line between the two, built on a foundation of the former with gameplay and almost all future development decidedly favoring the latter. Season 5 was the point the game pivoted, and many of the hardcore Trek fans from 2010 don't enjoy the F2P aspects. That's why you see the F2P players complaining that the Trek fans always complain, and why the Trek fans can't understand why the F2P players are happy with the status quo.
After three years, I wonder if both Star Trek Online and I have changed and fundamentally outgrown each other?
This train of thought is why it cost MORE to play MMO's today compared to just a few years ago. So called F2P games cost magnitudes more to play than sub based models. With sub based models, you pay XX amount, then sub for 2yrs while the next exp is in development, rinse repeat. Total cost around XX + (MO rate * 24)
F2P you pay for everything with little to no new content, and praise the GODS when they patch something that has been broken for 3 yrs. What little new content you fet in F2P, is gone through like ****E through a goose.
Keep your F2P model, id rather pay a sub to a company that keeps it word and does what it says.
Unlike most games you don't need to spend money on this game at all, so I don't see how you're spending a magnitude of money in STO unless you want everything now, and want lockbox stuff that you don't need ASAP.
This is completely untrue.
So far I've paid a grand total of $40 since starting to play STO as a F2P game. That would get me, about 3 months of subscription, and I've been playing for a lot longer then 3 months.
The only reason you to spend money in a F2P game, is for vanity items, or because you want something and don't want to spend the time it takes to grind what ever is required to buy it.
I bought a Odyssey, and some zen to buy costumes. I've also done the Dil grind and converted that into zen.
There are currently 2 sub based games out there, WoW and EVE. But to compare the two is hardly accurate IMO. EVE players are not your typical MMO types, and spend as much if not way more playing EVE on top of their sub as any F2P game.
WoW... Well WoW has always been the exception, and the only reason it's making it as a sub is because most people playing it either don't know about the F2P options out there, or are so tied to WoW that playing something else is not an option.