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Dual Cannons & Dual Heavy Cannons: too powerful?
undyingzero
Member Posts: 313 Arc User
In most games, usually, the slow weapon tends to deal more damage, while the faster weapon tends to deal LESS damage. The idea is that slow weapons are there for raw damage, while fast weapons are there for things like critical hits or burst damage.
However, this balance is thrown out the window in STO, with the Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons not only dealing more damage, but shooting faster.
Why? Cannons are the most destructive starship weapons in the game, due to RoF/DPS and raw damage, which I find baffling, while beams are just... beams. They're OK, but they'll never have the punch of cannons, which I find somewhat odd. Couple this with the fact that Dual Cannons and Dual heavy cannons can only be equipped on Escorts, and usually Tactical officers fly Escors, and they usually have Damage boosting skills PLUS a skill that makes you shoot FASTER, it's overkill. I think the fact that cannons are SO devastating is the primary reason why Tactical captains are so horribly devastating. After all, you seldom see an Escort with Beams or Dual Beam Banks, for a good reason.
So, why not up Beam damage and lower cannon damage, but give cannons an inherent CritH bonus to make 'em potentially devastating?
However, this balance is thrown out the window in STO, with the Dual Cannons and Dual Heavy Cannons not only dealing more damage, but shooting faster.
Why? Cannons are the most destructive starship weapons in the game, due to RoF/DPS and raw damage, which I find baffling, while beams are just... beams. They're OK, but they'll never have the punch of cannons, which I find somewhat odd. Couple this with the fact that Dual Cannons and Dual heavy cannons can only be equipped on Escorts, and usually Tactical officers fly Escors, and they usually have Damage boosting skills PLUS a skill that makes you shoot FASTER, it's overkill. I think the fact that cannons are SO devastating is the primary reason why Tactical captains are so horribly devastating. After all, you seldom see an Escort with Beams or Dual Beam Banks, for a good reason.
So, why not up Beam damage and lower cannon damage, but give cannons an inherent CritH bonus to make 'em potentially devastating?
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Which honestly doesn't mean much when the ships that can equip them have really good turn rates and at least 2 skills off the top of my head that increase turn rate temporarily, not to mention RCS consoles work better on Escorts.
Which also doesn't matter when you can buff your resists to high heaven and still tank nearly anything in the game since total health is meaningless. Only resists and ability to restore said health matter.
125% vs 100% in damage
DHCs have 45? firing arc, Cannons have 180?
25% vs 100% in arc
I don't think they are overpowered.
Yes, a Tac with DHCs/Turrets in an Escort deals ludicrous amounts of damage in one direction but there are drawbacks in survivability and a need for mobility.
They are powerful, but if you were to put Cannons on that ship it would only lose 25% dps and lose most of its need for mobility (thanks to 180? firing arc).
That seems pretty reasonable on paper at least.
He's dead, Jim.
My character Tsin'xing
Resists due to skills can be nullified via skills like Subnucleonic Beam. Again, resistance matters little when ships can destroy your shields in one pass, then tractor beam you in place and shoot at your exposed side.
It's easy to ignore tractor beams, tho, and if the target hits Evasive Maneuvers or comparable on top of his Attack Pattern Omega you'll be lucky if the targets still in range within one weapons cycle.
The chances for the same shield facing still being pointed towards you are minuscule.
He's dead, Jim.
DHCs are fine. Its beam arrays that need thier drain mechanic adjusted so they do not kill thier effectiveness when used.
Dual cannons are a whole different issue as they are only marginally more damaging than beam arrays with a restrictive firing arc.
Oh,and on a side note. The old standby for escorts is 2 DHCs, 1 DBB and a torp. Its layout many still use today.
R.I.P
Which is another thing Cruisers and Science vessels have better resist stacking choices of ingame. Both faster and larger heals if they wish to use them.
If the Devs nerf DHC or Tacs we end up with Cruisers that cant be killed again because healing and resist stacking will still be way high.
Another aproach is needed to bring parity to the game other than nerfing a class into being as useless as many think cruisers currently are ingame.
Do we really need to do to Tacs what was done Science so we end up with all broken classes?
There has got to be better way than all this pettiness that has been happening.
R.I.P
Again, correct me if I am wrong
Elite Defense Stovokor
There have been many threads written covering every side of the story. What amazes me is that after all this time and all the posts Cryptic continues to let the status quo exist. Just deal with the fundamental problems with cruisers and sci (the real problems, not the 'make cruisers dps like escorts' bull) and you will cut the complaining on the forums by a third.
I may be wrong but the only two real attempts Cryptic has made to address this problem are: (1) the creation of +-Th consoles, and (2) the Vesta and maybe the Wells. I'm sure ppl are going to jump all over me for what I just said but that's ok since that's what the forums are for.
Uh, no. I just noticed something about cannons that I thought was odd and defied most gaming design conventions. I'm not a big lover of playing Cannon Escorts, which is why I find playing on my KDF character incredibly boring.
Don't DHCs fire MORE shots per cycle, though? Plus, their damage is already higher than a Beam Array's.
Simply: No.
Yes DHC are powerful and Tac/Escort captains can deliver powerful alpha strikes. I'm sorry you can't do the same amount of damage in your beam boat, but those Tac/Escorts aren't tanking/healing/disabling anywhere near what you are doing either. You want to do Tac/Escort damage in your cruiser and have loads of HP and shields and healing to boot, does that make any sense at all?
Unbuffed DHCs only fire 2 shots/cycle compared to 4 shots/cycle other unbuffed energy weapons fire. There are different unbuffed rates of fire (RoF) as well as rythms (for DHCs iirc it's 2 shots/1 sec than 2 seconds nothing).
Iirc DBB has the highest base damage (not positive though been awhile since I ran a BO build).
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
I don't even fly cruisers, so this isn't a thread about Cruisers. You'd know this if you, y'know, READ the thread. I never even mentioned dealing the same damage as an Escort. All I was trying to get across was the WEAPONS themselves, not the Escorts or the Cruisers or anything. Please do the research (Read the thread) before replying.
Fedside weapons and ship types are inherently connected, people have been trying to make the case lately that beams are inferior and should be buffed in an attempt to circumvent the usual "cruisers wanting to be unkillable death dealers from far away" vibe. Its not working. Weapons type and ship type are connected, different weapon types are designed to work in ships with specific parameters. I truly wish Fed cruisers could mount DHCs. Their short range and tight firing arcs coupled with the slow turning inherent in cruisers would make them all try it out once and then go back to broadsides while orbiting their target.
But if you insist on looking at just the weapons be aware that firing arcs and range matter as well as whatever the final DPS turns out to be.
Have you ever flyied an escort?
I fly both cruisers and escorts, and yes... cruisers have less dps but with beam arrays you can fire in a 360? arc, moreover cruisers have also much more hull, shields and healing abilities. Still 4500 dps (using 8 beam arrays) for a tactical cruiser is not difficult.
Escort only fire in a 45? arc, and even if they have good turn rate they have to spend a lot of time in turning around and trying to front the opponent. Escorts also have much less hull and shield and healing abilities... if you use a rcs console you sacrifice an eng console slot ( so one plate less)...
However people often forget that cruiser are not attack ships, they are support ones (tanking and healing is their role)... do not use a ship for a role tha is not the right one.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
Yes, well said, beams just need to have their drain lessened.
Also I just switched to that 2 DHC, 1 DBB, 1 torp fromt he usual 3 DHC 1 torp layout on my Fleet Defiant and Fleet Hoh'sus, still works great.
This argument would be more persuasive if it weren't the fact that the highest DPS weapons, the ones with the smallest firing arcs and shortest effective range, weren't the exclusive domain of the most agile ship class; to whom range and firing arc mean the least.
...250 degrees...
If you're going to look at multiple weapons, then compare 2 beam arrays to 2 turrets which really DO have 360 degree firing capability and better options for tactical abilities.
People often forget that rigidly class-based gameplay via crippling overspecialization is strategically inflexible and boring.
if you equip beam arrays both in the front and in the rear of your ship, you can fire at any target in a 360 degree arc. And there are position that let you fire using all of the 8 beam arrays you can mount in a cruiser.
So for example you can activate a BO and if the opponent is in the range one beam surely will fire at it.
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
DHCs and DCs do suffer from range degradation issues, and they also suffer from tiny firing arcs. And yes, the ships that usually use them are very maneuverable, but what if your target is above you? And is using BAs? You're kinda boned. You will have turrets, but because this game limits your pitch to about 60 degrees, you will have a heck of a time killing your target with DHCs. I know, because I have seen beamscorts slaughter cannonscorts by simply getting above them and staying there. 6 BAs beat out 3 turrets any day of the week.
As for beams? Yeah, they are hella weak, but they also have the second best firing arcs in the game. 250 degrees is nothing to sneeze at. That's a 35 degree spillover in which you can broadside a target. The only negative is you are semi-forced to use the 180 degree quantum torp as a fed cruiser. Now I will agree that BAs, considering they are the primary weapon of most of one of the ships in a certain class, are still weak. But the ONLY buff I would support would be the restoration of the 20% damage they lost a few seasons back. And a slight increase in accuracy. Nothing more than 10%, preferably more like 5%.
Another thing that needs to be taken into consideration, one of the things Bareel said that I agreed with is that there are too many abilities that synergize too well with DCs and DHCs. Granted there are 3 BA based abilities, and only 2 cannon based abilities, but if you look at their actual capability, the abilities for cannons are somewhat better.
Cannons:
Cannon Rapid Fire: single target f*** you button.
Cannon Scatter Volley: multi target f*** you button.
Beams:
Beam Fire At Will: "shoot EVERYTHING!" "But sir..." "I SAID EVERYTHING. NAO!!!" aka disco ball
Beam Overload: single target f*** your shield button and then give up all your weapons power.
Beam Target X: single target possibly TRIBBLE a subsystem ability
The thing is, the CD and the fact you can't really aim it well makes BFAW not as good as it could be. Granted if you get to use it and only have one target to hit, it's wonderfully amazingly devastating (especially on tac cubes), but overall, it just draws too much attention. Then you have Beam Overload. You get a massive hit (minimum of 600%), but it nukes your weapons power. And I mean you literally EMP your own weapons with this ability. Then you have SST. Most commonly found on Science ships, but every so often I run into a cruiser using this. It's a wonderful ability, but due to it's CD, it's not really ideal for cruisers. Science ships use it because they get it for free (and I abuse it badly with my FRSV), but if you actually have to use a tactical slot for it, it's usefulness is unchanged, but it's idealness drops spectacularly.
Now let's look at cannon abilities. Cannon Rapid Fire screws a single target. And then screws it more. And then screws it more. Downside? Slightly less damage per shot, slightly higher energy drain. Cannon Scatter Volley? You basically blast everything in a large cone in front of you. Downside? Only 70% damage per shot.
Comparing the two, and then adding in the damage of DHCs compared to BAs, you will see that beams get the short end of the stick here.
So it makes you wonder wtf I am getting at after this wonderful exposition? Well I am just saying both have their upsides and downsides. It just seems that cannons have fewer downsides. But they do exist. So you cannot show cannons being a perfect weapon, because they aren't. Whereas beams, despite a few weaknesses, are not as gimped as some people would have you believe. Just a little weaker.
TL;DR
Beams are a little weaker, but are better in some situations. Cannons are far more powerful, but suffer from weaknesses that beams don't. If you absolutely must do something, don't nerf DHCs or DCs. I would say remove the 20% debuff on beams, and give a slight accuracy buff. And also look at the BOff abilities that affect the two, and might want to do some revamping there.
I specifically and preemptively addressed this point in the post you replied to.
If you're broadsiding, you're effectively sacrificing any chance of bringing projectile weapons to bear. Contrary to popular belief, more guns =/= more firepower.
but cruiser's role is support, not damage. People thinking to fly a cruiser and having a high dps are simply making it wrong!
In a team I expect that a cruiser will support an escort tanking, healing, protecting...
Moreover cruisers are slow and have a low turn rate.... it's not the best ship for torpedoes
Playing STO spamming FAW is like playing chess using always the computer's suggested moves
I support this. Updated with modern technology ofc. 2 DHCs/DCs, 1 Experimental Romulan Beam Array and a Romulan Hyper Plasma Torpedo.
Hull melt is a beast and well worth the difference between a DBB and an Array. Plus its less power drain cos the ERBA doesnt drain weapon power and only drains 35 with Beam Overload instead of the usual 50.
Not exactlly. Could always run 3x Cannons + 1x 180degree quantum front with 4x Turrets aft. Kinda broadsides if necessary and, at close range, probably out damages beam builds.
This is the game we have. After 3 years of people asking for the Devs to make Beam BO skills as competitive as Cannon BO skills they have done nothing of the sort. There is no reason to believe they ever will.
I too wish they would. But then there are lots of things I wish they would do that would improve the game but they would rather spend the time on Neverwinter and ignore STO.
I personally use this setup as well... I have two purple con doffs so only need 1 Tact Team... so a Beam Overload I... can provide a last punch for the last shot of my pass..
^This right here, so many people build their cruisers for DPS...
Can you can deal a solid amount but, its not your primary role..
Threat Control 9 + FAW = The Escorts on the team can tear things up w/o exploding.
If you're a Cruiser that can mount DHC even better... you can hold aggro and still deal a great deal amount of damage....
When I flew my D'kora on my main.. I'd park my ship right next to a tact cube.. Tank and fire my cannons and turrets.. he's an Engineer so power levels was never an issue.
Okay, so.. their "role" is to tank, which means
* it's going to take them five times longer to do any non team based combat because they're relying on people who aren't present to do damage.
* spending skill points and equipment slots on things that only increase threat instead of increasing firepower or survivability.
* any team that isn't composed of the proper 4-escort/1-cruiser ratio is probably at a disadvantage because all-escorts usually (not always) dies a lot and more than one dedicated tank just slows things down needlessly
Versus,
* Every ship should be able to stay alive and do damage to an equal extent if using their varying abilities at an equally proficient level.
... Call me crazy, but that second seems a lot more like good game design.
Getting rid of any class or ship type uniqueness would be horrible game design. Why not just have everyone fly the exact same ship with the exact same weapons and the exact same skills? If you buff escorts to have the durability of cruisers and utility of science, buff cruisers to have the damage of escorts and the utility of science, and buff science to have the damage of escorts and durability of cruisers... why even have the 3 types of ship?!?!
The problem lies not within the ship types or the balance. The problem is in the content that is provided, it favors DPSing too greatly.
Some of the Borg Elite content begins to address this issue by providing some extreme damage that escort pilots, especially tac captains, can not mitigate for long if targeted, even in a ship with a few extra tricks. The missing component of this however is the ability for anyone attempting to tank to effectively and constantly draw the aggro. They can try to heal the folks that did draw aggro, but it can be frustrating to heal people in a pug who fly off, don't distribute shields (thank god for TT), and don't have anything invested in hull resists. I heal elites in my fed eng recluse and its still amazingly fun though.
The one thing I would give cruisers was an inate ship ability, just like science vessels have the targeting abilities and escorts have bonus defense (cruisers do already have +20 extra bonus power instead of +15 btw) is a toggleable ability that actually and genuinely massively increased threat generation. Don't make us give up a console slot for it, that stings too much, make it just an ability you can turn on and off. Maybe there would need to be a draw back such as a very small power drain or better yet a 5~10% damage penalty but generating two or three times as much aggro.
Finally, as icing on the cake, make some Gear/Dilithium PVE content where healing/tanking counts toward the match ranking and there you have it... addressed the issue that causes cruiser/science whatever pilots to constantly take to the forums and ask to be like escorts.