Me personally all escorts need more hull reduction along with their shield modifier being nerfed at a .50 factor, they can keep the high dps for which they were designed to do, but when a escort can tank like a cruiser and turn on a dime plus deliver the woopass than you totally defeat the purpose and usefullness of almost every cruiser you try to sell off as some great ship you just gotta have and buy. Basically you ruin sales on your own store ships by making them unfavorable to most people.
Are you seriously basing your entire justification on one combat situation where the escort is deliberately trying not to destroy the cruiser?
Secondly, that thing you're calling a cruiser from Sac of Angels? It's a Jem'Hedar Dreadnought. You know, one of those ships that you already need a swarm of hornets to kill.
What makes me sad is:
People still don't realize there are 3 archtypes of ships and 3 classes - and they have nothing to do with each other.
Cruiser, Escort, Science Vessel on one hand.
Tactical, Engineer, Science Captain on the other.
You can be a Science Captain in an Escort and blow stuff up
You can be an Engineering Captain in an Escort and blow stuff up
You can be a Tactical Captain in an Escort and blow stuff up.
As well as all other combinations.
Rocket science once again.
All I see is people whining that the high dps class in a high dps ship deals high dps.
It's called "arithmetics" - they figured it out thousands of years ago.
Hm. Let us look at some Star Trek battle. Ideally, a big one where lots of ships of different kinds fight alongside one another. Sacrifice of Angels, part 1 and 2. A combined Federation and Klingon fleet vs the combined Dominion and Cardassian fleet. Nicely made publicly viewable here:
The actual battle starts at about 04:50 minutes. You will see lots of cruisers shooting at cruisers.
There is a situation in that battle where the Defiant destroys a cruiser. It is at about 08:30 minutes. But the Defiant isn't alone as the only "escort" to attack that Jem'Hadar Dreadnought. At least two other ships of the same class join it.
In fact, I have been rewatching the whole DS9 series for some time now, and I see the Defiant sucessfully destroy lots of other "escorts"/"small and agile warships" or whatever you might call them. But cruisers, alone? Nope. And neither the other way round (although the battle vs the Lakota was quite unbalanced in the Defiant's disfavor, but that was due to newer equipment... the Lakota had just been refitted, and thus had, in STO-speak, weapons, shields and armor of a higher Mk number... it seemed like a balanced battle at the beginning).
So I would say a system where each type of ships is best at fighting its own is perfectly Star Trek. You obviouly have a different impression. Could you explain where it comes from and how the scenes you have in mind rule out a "each class best fights its own first"? That would be helpful. Thanks. .
Not a good idea to base your system off of one battle in a 7 year series. Second, you must have missed the episode where Sisko had to help the Cardasians send practically half their military to hunt down the Defiant when the Maquis stole it, or when the Defiant took on a Vor'cha, or when the Defiant went up against a Neghvar and won (albeit it was the Mirror Universe). Don't cherry pick your stats. I say that because you conviently ignored completely the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, which destroyed how many of the prominent Alpha Quadrant cruiser classes?
So in your above "I am fighting a cruiser" example, the escort coming to your help might add 25% to your cruiser vs. cruiser damage but, well, yes, you will have to do most of the work yourself. Still, the help of the escort will be help. But in a fight vs a cruiser, the cruiser captain will be the hero of the three, and the tac escort will just be support.
Likewise, in an escort vs escort fight, a cruiser would add perhaps 25% to your escort's damage, but the actual work of defeating that escort will be the tac escort's job.
I'll put it like this: What if I made a tank game where tank destroyer are best effective only against other tank destroyer? It will be pretty dumb if the 128mm on my Jagdtiger was poor in fighting a Sherman only because he is not in my class.
A better example: making a game about PT Boats where they are only effective against other PT Boats. Let's see how far that game would get.
Same principle: I hit an escort with a broadside of purple Mk XII gear, I expect to do some damage. He is an escort with weaker shields and poorer side armament than me. As it stands now, I can hurt him (dependeing on his consoles and mine, of course). In your system, I couldn't do that.
Escorts only really have higher DPS because they can mount cannons. put beam arrays on an escort and you wouldn't have this issue (primary reason for fail builds in the early days of STO), but that negates the Escorts role; a quick strike platform.
Also, you haven't discussed the Klingons, with no science ships and a somewhat unique Raider (BoP) and Raptor classes. How will these factor in.
I have seen people just blowing up all the nanite probes in time to still win the optional. Guess what kind of ships did that.
My point is is that in the current the game's current state Cruisers and Science vessel do have a role if the players choose to use it in such. A science vessel in capable hands can roflstomp any inexperienced captain in an escort, no matter the escort's build.
In my opinion, the idea of a damage-dealing class is "unfair", if that word isn't too strong... I would prefer "not a good idea".
What's unfair about a DPS class? It's not like this is new concept in RPGs. A class meant to hammer the enemy, but must have some support sense it can't take much damage. With some decent team mates, the lack of survivability is not an issue. The point is to encourage team play. Failing to play as a team is the fault of the player base, not the system.
How boring is PvP when only one ship type is effective at actually defeating other ships at all?
The thing is, an experienced player with a decent build has no issue destroying other ships. I've destroyed escorts with my Odessey. My issue has always been the ships with fleet and borg consoles. In that respect, I've seen a Galaxy-X with a borg gear rip unsuspecting escorts to shreds. You don't change the rules/game mechanics because some people can't play.
I've been the hero in my Wells Class, my Odyssey class, my Armitage class, my Chimera class, my BoP, and my Raptor heavy destroyer (can't remeber the last two class names)
I know my limits, I know what I can and can't do. I know what my ship can and can't do. And the only things I ever blame the game for are the Borg one shot instant deaths. I.E. I don't blame game mechanics because I'm dumb enough to take a cruiser into a one on one fight against an escort in PvP without a mutually supportive teamate.
And, IIRC, you haven't outline in much detail how PvE would be affected. Some battles take long enough as it is. Your system stands the chance of unneccessarily prolonging some already decent length fights.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
I find it hilarious that people here think escorts can "tank like a cruiser". It's not the high damage everyone (especially the OP) seems to have a problem with, it's the survivability.
Before I go on my (short) explanation, I'll preface this by saying I do not care one iota about PvP, and will not go down that road. PvP has no place in Star Trek, so whether an escort can survive a rather short encounter with another player is of no concern to me.
Escorts cannot take the damage a cruiser can. They simply cannot load up enough heals (or powerful enough heals) to do so. When playing Elite STFs, escorts WILL die if they dish out too much damage at a time. In fact, Cryptic put in NPCs specifically meant to kill escort pilots to make sure they didn't dominate the field the whole time. (I'm referring to Donatra, Assimilated Neg'vars, spheres with their incessant shield drains, etc.)
I have a highly optimized escort, and I still die on average once or twice per STF. The reason for that is I deal *TOO MUCH* damage, and gain the aggro of NPCs around me for far longer than I should. It's a bit ridiculous when I can stop firing at a target, and they're still shooting at me 30 seconds later, when the rest of my team finally manages to kill them.
I'm currently flying a Steamrunner, and I can load more heals than I ever could before. I've got 2x EPtS, 2x Aux2Strut, 1x HE, and 2x Tactical Team (not strictly a heal, but auto-distributing shields faster than clicking them keeps me alive); that's not including APO, APD, etc. Even with all that, I still die.
Cruisers get more (and higher-tiered) engineering slots for heals and damage resistance. They also get more hull and (usually) a higher shield modifier. Any cruiser captain who dies in an STF is just ignorant to their survival potential.
And that is precisely the debate we could avoid with a system like the one proposed. ^^
... no. You missed the point I was making. Escorts are not the all-powerful, must-have ships of the line. They fulfill a role, nothing more. You're asking for cruisers to become the go-to ship, and for escorts to get nerfed into oblivion.
Yes, I've read the entire thread, including all your very misguided (but passionate) arguments for your proposal. It's still nothing but over-zealous cruiser-love.
STO is fine as-is. Escorts dish damage, cruisers tank/heal, and science vessels crowd control. Once you understand that system, and build your ship accordingly, you will do quite well in the game. Any time you start trying to mix/match those attributes, bad things happen. I watched it happen in Tabula Rasa, I watched it happen in Star Wars Galaxies, I watched it happen in A!on (to an extent), and I've heard of it happening in WoW (an MMO I will never in my life even contemplate playing).
The only thing that matters with STO is what kind of playstyle you prefer. You wanna be a healing escort? fine. DPS science boat? be my guest.
Want to run a rainbow boat in a STF? Be my guest. I really don't care what you do, so long as you don't TRIBBLE everyone over by attacking the wrong thing at the wrong time.
Well, I mentioned two directly, and have matched many since. But let us take more examples, so we can get to a consensus about the nature of space battles in the Trek universe.
The Cardassian military was using cruisers. Naturally, they needed several of those to get an escort. This fits perfectly, I would say?.
Which goes to show the power of that one Defiant-class; the Cardassians had to send several cruiser take out one ship, which given what we've seen, could easily dispatched a Galor cruiser.
When no other ships were available. Let us look at the battle of the USS Oddyssey (Galaxy class) vs three Jem'Hadar attack ships, while the Oddyssey was only supported by two runabout shuttles:
What do we see here? Three Jem'Hadar attack ships have no choice to stop the Oddyssey from escaping by sacrificing one of theirs. The three would have won the battle (hence the Oddyssey's retreat), but it would have taken them too long, so the Odyssey would have reached the Alpha quadrant had they not used such a suicidal tactic.
Again, it works nicely under a "each class is best at fighting their own class" assumption. No contradiction to Star Trek canon here.
Again, you are cherry picking. CDR Sisko theorizes the Jem'haddar rammed the Oddyssey to demonstrate how far the Dominion is willing to go for asbsolute victory. Given what we've seen of the Jem'Haddar, a suicide run just to prove a point isn't far fetched. Besides, the Dominion was trying to get a Vorta agent into the Alpha Quadrant, which is why the retreat was allowed. Allow the agent to infiltrate, while spreading fear.
But for a game, that would be rather not a good decision, don't you agree?
Why not, we have that now and the only complaint so far is that, given certain abilities and consoles, Escort can do a minor tanking role and get away with it. A slight nerf to escorts will fix that, not a drastic reworking of game mechanics.
A game is not supposed to be realistic in the first place. For an established-ip game like STO, what we want is twofold, I woul say: The game should be a) true to the sources, and b) fun to play.
It is true to sources, and I find it fun to play, as do thousands of others (since they keep plunking down money for things).
No, I couldn't. In your system, I am now ineffective against anything else but another cruiser, and that escort wouldn't be effective against me. We would get into a drawn out battle.
Not entirely. I have put beam arrays on escorts and fought many battles with such designs -their dps is lower than that of DHC escorts, but still significantly higher than that of a beam cruiser, carrier, or science ship. It's only natural: More tactical consoles, more tactical bridge officer powers to increase the damage.
The damage output is higher, but not significantly higher. A beam escort will not dominate (without help) other ships. For escorts, DPS is the name of the game. If you are not maximizing DPS, you shouldn't be playing in an escort.
Escorts, under the current system, are designed to be the damage dealer, and that they are. Even an escort with 7 turrets will be a better damage dealer than a star cruiser with 8 turrets. And rightly so - that's what they are designed to be.
That is an interesting question! How would the Klingon empire's fleet operate under such circumstances? I believe they would have less anti-sci potential, thus needing more time to defeat science ships (or fleets that have many of them, like Starfleet or the Gorn's navy).
Which sort of fits with what we know about the Klingon-Gorn war and the Klingon-Federation war.
Sure it is not new. But it is always and everywhere a source of discontent for some, which is a pity. When coming up with the idea from the OP, I was trying to find a way out of this phenomenon. You know the forums. There are lots of debates about how the dps classes (tactical captains and escorts) are sort of the rulers of all (and you and I do even agree on that). As someone else wrote in the thread where this one originated: Where there is smoke, there is fire.
Yes, Escort do dominate because they are the damage dealers, which is the point in any MMO. The tanks can soak up all the damage they want, and the healers can heal all they want, but eventually someone has to quickly dispatch the the enemy, which is how the DPS supports the team; quickly destroying the enemy to prevent the tanks and healers from exhausting themselves. At the same time, escorts wouldn't dominate if teamamtes than provide buffs and heals.
So, if the damage dealing class is such a source of grief for so many, in an environment that is specifically designed to be fun... how can one change the design so that it does what it is supposed to do, that is, entertaining everybody?
The customer is not always right. But he is still the customer. I believe people want happy customers in the entertainment business. So, how do we make everybody happy?
Well, but shouldn't you think about the game mechanics when a sizable portion of the player base is unhappy with them?
If you try to make everyone happy, you end up making no one happy. This isn't a new concept in game design. Partly why a game like Eve has lasted so long; it doesn't make everyone happy and doesn't pretend to, nor does it try to.
Same principle. The game mechanics are what they are. Anyone wanting to enjoy the game needs to learn the mechanics as they are. The mechanics aren't perfect, and need a tweak here and there. What you are advocating is something I've seen in World of Tanks: basically nerfs and buffs their are done based on which tanks have the highest win percentages, which leads to a dumb system of never ending nerfs and buffs. Same principle here; you are basically nerfing escorts becasue most of the player base seems to enjoy them and like to kill things.
Your system, while trying to "make everyone happy" (which is impossible) would alienate the Escort captains
Hm. How is that dumb? 1v1 fights are a staple of Star Trek.
I would be an idiot to take a cruiser into a 1v1 fight against an escort in the current system, anyone that has been playing for more than a day knows that (unless you are absolutly sure of your skill and ship build). I've been shredded by escorts in my cruiser. On the other hand, I have shredded escorts with less than optimal builds and less capable captains.
Hm. I am once again mystified - how would battles be prolongued? I can perfectly see all ships removing 33% of the opposition from the game in the same time that escorts (one third of the ship population, in theory) remove 100% now.
In your system, classes are only effective against like classes. You seem to think that people would only fight their equivalent class. Doesn't work like that in game. At some point, I will take on other ships (especially true in PUG PvP). Your system would prolong those battle.
Now, if you are into solo mission play, and are in a tac escort, obviously you will need more time than now. But as a cruiser or science ship captain, you will need less.
And that demonstrates the issue people are having; you did nothing but switch the cruiser to the main damage dealer. And even if that weren't the case, many of the solo engagements involve a few waves of escorts so now cruisers would be in an even longer engagement than needed. And since Klingons lack science ships, the Science vessels are screwed over with an even longer engagement time.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Kind of an odd sentiment given the wargames and pitched battles that take place in all the series, but to each his own, I guess.
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Kind of an odd sentiment given the wargames and pitched battles that take place in all the series, but to each his own, I guess.
Ships didn't spontaneously combust (warp core breech) in the wargames, and by the TNG era, it was all but abandoned. Picard and crew were rather reluctant to participate in one, considering it barbaric and archaic.
The Federation has plenty of enemies to test themselves without needing to resort to useless and senseless violence amongst themselves. As for the Klingons, well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
Ships didn't spontaneously combust (warp core breech) in the wargames, and by the TNG era, it was all but abandoned. Picard and crew were rather reluctant to participate in one, considering it barbaric and archaic.
The Federation has plenty of enemies to test themselves without needing to resort to useless and senseless violence amongst themselves. As for the Klingons, well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
It's a game dude. Think of it as an elaborate computer simulation.
Off topic: Also the lack of war exercises might explain why the Federation got its butt handed to it in the early statges of the Dominion War; a lack of experience and training. Common sense must prevail; fleets need to practice and simple border skirmishes won't cut it. It isn't "sensless violence" if it's just an exercise. Fleets and militaries need to practice at some point. Just think of Fed v Fed PvP as such; fleets practicing for actual combat in a simulation (something that is done by modern day militaries, complete with virtual ships manned with people sitting behind computers being "blown up").
which many people just don't like (enter your average "cruisers are underpowered" thread)? Why not make a better solution the actual problem: Entertaining people by allowing them to be starship captains.
Serious question: are you new to MMOs? Someone will ALWAYS think something is overpowered or underpowered. People think the Borg on elite STF are OP, others don't. There are some out there that think science vessels are OP, other don't.
A general rule is to take any "ship X is OP" thread with a grain of salt (same with any "ship y is UP" thread).
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
Star Trek: The Original Grind
Star Trek: The Next Grind
Star Trek: Deep Space Grind
Star Trek: Voyage to the Grind
Thinking about my original post, and about what some people misundertsood about it, I think I want to modify the concept slightly:
So, all ships do the same damage, as modified by weapon type, energy levels and skills. Now, the captain abilities, bridge officer abilities and consoles of a given area change:
Tactical captain abilities, bridge officer abilities and consoles provide bonuses to accuracy (per weapon type) and Defense.
Science captain abilities, bridge officer abilities and consoles provide bonuses to shield damage resistance, and shield damage resistance penetration
Engineering captain abilities, bridge officer abilities and consoles provide bonuses to hull damage resistance (armor) and hull damage resistance penetration.
I think that is is a better version - as it does not give anyoneone higher base numbers, but achieves what I have in mind. What do you think?
No, because you're STILL asking for cruisers to become the new high damage dealers (since they can, in this new proposal, deal the most damage through hull resists) *AND* still keep the highest defense in the game.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Your proposal would make everything but cruisers virtually worthless to fly because cruisers get the best defense and the best net damage output. What good is extra accuracy if you can just fly a brick with armor-splitting beams of doom? Why crowd-control or ECM someone when, again, you can just be a flying brick with pew pew lazors? :rolleyes:
Uh, highest Defense would derive from tactical consoles, tactical bridge officer abilities and tactical captain abilities... I don't see how cruisers would have an innate advantage in that area? Please explain how you get to your conclusion?
Tactical captain abilities, bridge officer abilities and consoles provide bonuses to accuracy (per weapon type) and Defense.
Engineering captain abilities, bridge officer abilities and consoles provide bonuses to hull damage resistance (armor) and hull damage resistance penetration.
Hull damage resistance is the best way to tank in the game currently. Hull tanking is a PvP favorite (can't believe I'm going down this road :mad:) because hull heals have greater effect than shield heals. It's also easier to stack hull resists than it is to stack shield resists, and there are more hull heals and hull resists currently in the game than shield heals and shield resists. In addition, there's several abilities designed to strip away shields (or reduce their regen rate) including power drains, science abilities, weapon procs, etc., but the only way to strip away hull is to deal direct damage to it.
You're basically handing the best damage output (hull penetration, to get around the best resist in the game) and the best defense (hull resist) to one single ship type, which also happens to be your pet favorite ship type.
I can't imagine you're ignorant enough to not realize we can all see right through this facade, so I have to ask why you persist in insisting that you're not heavily favoring cruisers, to the detriment of the other ship types?
ONow, with that misunderstanding out of the way, what do you think about the general idea?
It's not a misunderstanding, it's a fundamental flaw in your idea. But since you don't want to focus on that, I'm instead going to just address your question.
The system we have currently is not broken; in fact, it works quite well. You are proposing a very radical change to that system in order to suit your personal tastes. I could speculate (probably accurately) on why that is, but I won't. Instead, I will just point out that you want to replace a properly functioning system with a brand new system that doesn't have the benefit of several YEARS of patches, updates, tweaks, fixes, feedback, etc. Doesn't that seem rather like a bad idea?
At the speed Cryptic fixes bugs, we'd be left with a very buggy new "starship trinity" for probably 3 years before it finally resembled anything close to the level of polish we have currently. Do you really want to play a much buggier version of space combat for the next 3 years or so just so your pet cruisers can be the end-all, be-all of starship combat? :rolleyes:
And what would that flaw be? Obviously it cannot be about "who gets more", since it is supposed to be with numbers chosen so that everybody gets the same.
The flaw is assuming players are unhappy. The flaw is assuming everyone wants to fly cruisers. The flaw is assuming that the game design is broken and needs improvement. The flaw is assuming players agree with your concept of what is "right" for STO. There's so many things wrong with your proposal that I am ill-equipped to explain them all.
It boils down to the fact that there's a REASON nearly all MMOs are designed with the same general trinity - it's easy to develop, easy to understand, and easy to tweak. The only players who have animosity towards the "damage dealers" are the players who haven't maximized their own character's potential. Not everyone has to be (or should be!) the "damage dealers". Healers, tanks, crowd control, etc. are all necessary parts of the game.
You can run into an STF with 5 escorts, and if they all know what they are doing, it will be "fast and easy"... until the high damage NPCs show up. Then, the escorts either die, or they have to start rotating out of combat to stay alive. Meanwhile, even a moderately-well built cruiser can sit in the battle the whole time, not only keeping themself alive, but also healing one or two ships around them. They become a "base of operations", so to speak, for the rest of the group.
Science ships are similarly useful for their crowd control abilities. Power drains, AOEs, etc. all make it much easier to kill NPCs. Science ships best compliment escorts with their gravity wells, tyken's rifts, etc. which bunch the NPCs up into one neat little bundle for maximum AOE potential.
There's nothing broken in this system. It has been carefully crafted and balanced to ensure each ship has a role, and each role is useful. If you are not having fun playing a cruiser, you need to fly a different ship, not demand cruisers be changed to fit your personal preferences in play-style.
And unlike with the Damage Dealer/ Healer /Crowd Controler-Trinity (or any others of that taste), it is pretty much a matter of comparing raw numbers to see if it is balanced or not.
Nope, you're just shifting the placement of the raw numbers, and your new configuration very obviously heavily favors cruisers. It equally obviously is meant to make escorts near-worthless.
Then how do you explain that there are so many people either unhappy with Escorts Online, or switching to commanding an escort, or demanding cruisers with more tactical ability slots, or "warships" that are basically cruisers with an escort boff and console layout?
I don't see anyone but PvPers complaining about escorts. I do see players trying to fly cruisers and science ships as-if they were escorts, but those players are always the first to die or ruin a group mission (such as an STF). I don't care what the PvPers think, and I'm not going to waste my time with newbies. PvPers account for SINGLE DIGIT PERCENTAGES of the player base in nearly every MMO, and STO is no exception. There's plenty of other players who are ready and willing to coach the newbies. Everyone else, who make up the vast majority of the playerbase, know what they want to fly and how to set it up properly.
You're deliberately cherry-picking through the playerbase in an attempt to support your misguided ideas.
You are still not really answering the question about the general idea.
No one expects that a concept like this will actually be implemented. Everybody knows it is just a gedankenexperiment. Why don't you dare to join me on it, and then see what comes out of it in your mind? Why not do some thorough concluding?
No, I did answer the question, you just apparently lack general reading comprehension. Here it is in simple form: I do not support, in any way, shape, or form, your idea. As I and others have repeatedly stated, it is nothing more than a very thinly veiled and poorly thought-out attempt to nerf escorts and super-buff cruisers. The 5 pages of disagreement with you should have been enough to convince you that no one here really wants what you're proposing, nor do they want anything that resembles it.
It's also obvious that you expect changes based on the "framework" of your proposal. You want to see cruisers deal the most damage while still retaining their status as the best available tanks. You want to see escort damage drastically reduced in order to protect your cruiser from being beaten up in PvP. I've already thought about your idea quite thoroughly, and I'm not willing to entertain it any further. It would ruin my chosen playstyle (PvE) by making it much harder across the board to kill NPCs. Fast, agile escorts would no longer be able to bring significant damage potential where it is needed in a timely manner, and slow lumbering cruisers would arrive to engagements too late to be of any real use.
That's not even mentioning how PvP would become nothing but a cruiser slough-fest, but I already know that's exactly what you're hoping for.
In other words: How would you build your ship under such a system, and what kind of fights would you expect to come out of it? After having answered that for yourself, you could, for example, decide you don't like the result, and explain why you don't. Or you could find out that you'd like it, and then explain why you do.
I wouldn't play if such a thing were to occur. I would walk away from the game and never look back. I have a lifetime subscription that I purchased when the game was still in BETA. It has paid for itself at least twice over by now, so I stand to lose nothing but my characters and the time invested. Since I've already been through that with SWG, to a much greater degree, it would not bother me in the slightest. I'm already disenchanted with PWE and the blatant monetization of the game, changing its core mechanics would just be the final nail in the coffin.
I'm not the only person who would do this, either. Space combat is by and far the most loved part of the game. Change it, and people will leave in droves. This is not "doom is nigh" talk, you can quite easily prove it just by asking the players around you.
By the way, I am done discussing this with you. It is obvious you are on a witch hunt, with a solution desperately looking for a problem to apply it to. You have not listened to 5 pages of reason, so I don't expect you to listen to me either.
I'll amuse myself by reading your responses, but you'll get no further discussion from me.
My engi cruiser is the hero, it tanks anything and everything while still out-dpsing your average non tanky cruisers and failscorts. It even has limited debuff abilities!
My Sci cap in a Sci Vessel is more of a supervillain, what with toying with the fundamental laws of the universe to suit her fancy and then shoving torps and mines down the NPC's throats.
If someone isn't making their ships the HERO that is their own choice in building poorly. I have to say this thread has no purpose other than try to alleviate people's need to learn the current system to make their ship's as good and heroic as they can be.
I actually think this is one of the current system's greatest strengths. You don't HAVE to use any specific ship/class combination to be both successful and an important contributing member of any group content. You DO need to know how to use the basics and build around what you're trying to do though. Of course, an escort specced tac can still be fun and effective in a large sci vessel/carrier, it just requires the player to alter their game play a little.
I totally agree with you.
I have seen so much evidences that cruisers can actually pump some serious damage that i came to the conclusion that the only reason some players complain their cruisers are bad are because they are simply bad players who do not understand all the game mechanics and how weapon power, buffs and debuffs and all else work in game.
And like you said, one of the system greatest strength is the possibility for players to endorse any role they wish in game simply by changing ship class, modifying BO skills in your BO seats depending of what you wanna do and equipping your ship properly.
For exemple, all my klingon characters are currently piloting a Kar'Fi carrier ( to me it remains one of the best all around ship in game ) and they all do great in them no matter what their profession is. Their class skills only bring a nice variation on the overall ship offense and defenses capability but it would very hard to say that any of them really is better than the others.
Sure, if all you know to do with your zombie cruiser is to equip hull/shield heal skills then do not expect to be a great damage dealer, you'll be a damage soaker. But if you want to build your cruiser for offense, there are plenty BO skills that can turn your cruiser into a potent damage dealer. You might not have access to all the nifty escort tactical abilities but if you can keep all your arrays at full power with buffs, they will do damage. Without counting that with 8 weapon slots, you can also carry mines, torpedoes and other special weapons over all that.
My Odyssey equipped with 6 Spiral Wave arrays, the 180 quantum torp and a aft trico mine can definitely harm pretty much anything in game and soak alot of dmg. It is not as bursty as an escort rapid fire but FAW is not to be neglected when your weapon power is buffed to the roof.
The game is not perfect, there are issues but i really believe that the rumor claiming that Cruisers are totally outclassed in dmg by most escorts is grossly exagerated. Sure, they come second but really not far behind when you closely look at the numbers.
The only thing that matters with STO is what kind of playstyle you prefer. You wanna be a healing escort? fine. DPS science boat? be my guest.
Want to run a rainbow boat in a STF? Be my guest. I really don't care what you do, so long as you don't TRIBBLE everyone over by attacking the wrong thing at the wrong time.
You make a really straight to the point argument and i tend to agree with you. The game as it is currently leaves room for lot of versatility, customization of roles, hybridization and i personally like it. Pigeonholing players into immuable roles is incredibly boring IMHO.
If you know what you are doing, you are helpful and you help get the job done by any mean you can, then it is good enough for me in my book.
Then how do you explain that there are so many people either unhappy with Escorts Online, or switching to commanding an escort, or demanding cruisers with more tactical ability slots, or "warships" that are basically cruisers with an escort boff and console layout?
As I stated before, some people will always be unhappy, no matter what the developer does.
Part of the issue may be the fan base. People see the Enterprise-D and the Voyager in combat and want to do those things, forgetting that the mechanics need to be balanced, meaning that since Crytpic went the route of the holy trinity, everything needs to balance out as such (IMHO they need to work a little bit more on balancing, especially with the power creep and the c-store ships and lock-box consoles but that is another debate).
Again, cruisers need to know their role. If you can make a damge dealing cruiser (as I've seen on multiple occasions) more power to you. OTOH, I don't want people to expect me to do anything else in my escort but kill things, and my team mates are right to expect me to crowd control with my science vessel (although with a dual chroniton beam, dual antiproton beam, and a chroniton torpedo launcher in the foward arc expect me to take some pot shots at the enemy )
How the Devs see Star Trek, apparently:
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Praetor of the -RTS- Romulan Tal Shiar fleet!
Secondly, that thing you're calling a cruiser from Sac of Angels? It's a Jem'Hedar Dreadnought. You know, one of those ships that you already need a swarm of hornets to kill.
People still don't realize there are 3 archtypes of ships and 3 classes - and they have nothing to do with each other.
Cruiser, Escort, Science Vessel on one hand.
Tactical, Engineer, Science Captain on the other.
You can be a Science Captain in an Escort and blow stuff up
You can be an Engineering Captain in an Escort and blow stuff up
You can be a Tactical Captain in an Escort and blow stuff up.
As well as all other combinations.
Rocket science once again.
All I see is people whining that the high dps class in a high dps ship deals high dps.
It's called "arithmetics" - they figured it out thousands of years ago.
He's dead, Jim.
Not a good idea to base your system off of one battle in a 7 year series. Second, you must have missed the episode where Sisko had to help the Cardasians send practically half their military to hunt down the Defiant when the Maquis stole it, or when the Defiant took on a Vor'cha, or when the Defiant went up against a Neghvar and won (albeit it was the Mirror Universe). Don't cherry pick your stats. I say that because you conviently ignored completely the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship, which destroyed how many of the prominent Alpha Quadrant cruiser classes?
I'll put it like this: What if I made a tank game where tank destroyer are best effective only against other tank destroyer? It will be pretty dumb if the 128mm on my Jagdtiger was poor in fighting a Sherman only because he is not in my class.
A better example: making a game about PT Boats where they are only effective against other PT Boats. Let's see how far that game would get.
Same principle: I hit an escort with a broadside of purple Mk XII gear, I expect to do some damage. He is an escort with weaker shields and poorer side armament than me. As it stands now, I can hurt him (dependeing on his consoles and mine, of course). In your system, I couldn't do that.
Escorts only really have higher DPS because they can mount cannons. put beam arrays on an escort and you wouldn't have this issue (primary reason for fail builds in the early days of STO), but that negates the Escorts role; a quick strike platform.
Also, you haven't discussed the Klingons, with no science ships and a somewhat unique Raider (BoP) and Raptor classes. How will these factor in.
My point is is that in the current the game's current state Cruisers and Science vessel do have a role if the players choose to use it in such. A science vessel in capable hands can roflstomp any inexperienced captain in an escort, no matter the escort's build.
What's unfair about a DPS class? It's not like this is new concept in RPGs. A class meant to hammer the enemy, but must have some support sense it can't take much damage. With some decent team mates, the lack of survivability is not an issue. The point is to encourage team play. Failing to play as a team is the fault of the player base, not the system.
The thing is, an experienced player with a decent build has no issue destroying other ships. I've destroyed escorts with my Odessey. My issue has always been the ships with fleet and borg consoles. In that respect, I've seen a Galaxy-X with a borg gear rip unsuspecting escorts to shreds. You don't change the rules/game mechanics because some people can't play.
I've been the hero in my Wells Class, my Odyssey class, my Armitage class, my Chimera class, my BoP, and my Raptor heavy destroyer (can't remeber the last two class names)
I know my limits, I know what I can and can't do. I know what my ship can and can't do. And the only things I ever blame the game for are the Borg one shot instant deaths. I.E. I don't blame game mechanics because I'm dumb enough to take a cruiser into a one on one fight against an escort in PvP without a mutually supportive teamate.
And, IIRC, you haven't outline in much detail how PvE would be affected. Some battles take long enough as it is. Your system stands the chance of unneccessarily prolonging some already decent length fights.
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Before I go on my (short) explanation, I'll preface this by saying I do not care one iota about PvP, and will not go down that road. PvP has no place in Star Trek, so whether an escort can survive a rather short encounter with another player is of no concern to me.
Escorts cannot take the damage a cruiser can. They simply cannot load up enough heals (or powerful enough heals) to do so. When playing Elite STFs, escorts WILL die if they dish out too much damage at a time. In fact, Cryptic put in NPCs specifically meant to kill escort pilots to make sure they didn't dominate the field the whole time. (I'm referring to Donatra, Assimilated Neg'vars, spheres with their incessant shield drains, etc.)
I have a highly optimized escort, and I still die on average once or twice per STF. The reason for that is I deal *TOO MUCH* damage, and gain the aggro of NPCs around me for far longer than I should. It's a bit ridiculous when I can stop firing at a target, and they're still shooting at me 30 seconds later, when the rest of my team finally manages to kill them.
I'm currently flying a Steamrunner, and I can load more heals than I ever could before. I've got 2x EPtS, 2x Aux2Strut, 1x HE, and 2x Tactical Team (not strictly a heal, but auto-distributing shields faster than clicking them keeps me alive); that's not including APO, APD, etc. Even with all that, I still die.
Cruisers get more (and higher-tiered) engineering slots for heals and damage resistance. They also get more hull and (usually) a higher shield modifier. Any cruiser captain who dies in an STF is just ignorant to their survival potential.
... no. You missed the point I was making. Escorts are not the all-powerful, must-have ships of the line. They fulfill a role, nothing more. You're asking for cruisers to become the go-to ship, and for escorts to get nerfed into oblivion.
Yes, I've read the entire thread, including all your very misguided (but passionate) arguments for your proposal. It's still nothing but over-zealous cruiser-love.
STO is fine as-is. Escorts dish damage, cruisers tank/heal, and science vessels crowd control. Once you understand that system, and build your ship accordingly, you will do quite well in the game. Any time you start trying to mix/match those attributes, bad things happen. I watched it happen in Tabula Rasa, I watched it happen in Star Wars Galaxies, I watched it happen in A!on (to an extent), and I've heard of it happening in WoW (an MMO I will never in my life even contemplate playing).
The only thing that matters with STO is what kind of playstyle you prefer. You wanna be a healing escort? fine. DPS science boat? be my guest.
Want to run a rainbow boat in a STF? Be my guest. I really don't care what you do, so long as you don't TRIBBLE everyone over by attacking the wrong thing at the wrong time.
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Kind of an odd sentiment given the wargames and pitched battles that take place in all the series, but to each his own, I guess.
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Ships didn't spontaneously combust (warp core breech) in the wargames, and by the TNG era, it was all but abandoned. Picard and crew were rather reluctant to participate in one, considering it barbaric and archaic.
The Federation has plenty of enemies to test themselves without needing to resort to useless and senseless violence amongst themselves. As for the Klingons, well, I'll leave that to your imagination.
It's a game dude. Think of it as an elaborate computer simulation.
Off topic: Also the lack of war exercises might explain why the Federation got its butt handed to it in the early statges of the Dominion War; a lack of experience and training. Common sense must prevail; fleets need to practice and simple border skirmishes won't cut it. It isn't "sensless violence" if it's just an exercise. Fleets and militaries need to practice at some point. Just think of Fed v Fed PvP as such; fleets practicing for actual combat in a simulation (something that is done by modern day militaries, complete with virtual ships manned with people sitting behind computers being "blown up").
Back on topic:
Serious question: are you new to MMOs? Someone will ALWAYS think something is overpowered or underpowered. People think the Borg on elite STF are OP, others don't. There are some out there that think science vessels are OP, other don't.
A general rule is to take any "ship X is OP" thread with a grain of salt (same with any "ship y is UP" thread).
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No, because you're STILL asking for cruisers to become the new high damage dealers (since they can, in this new proposal, deal the most damage through hull resists) *AND* still keep the highest defense in the game.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Your proposal would make everything but cruisers virtually worthless to fly because cruisers get the best defense and the best net damage output. What good is extra accuracy if you can just fly a brick with armor-splitting beams of doom? Why crowd-control or ECM someone when, again, you can just be a flying brick with pew pew lazors? :rolleyes:
Hull damage resistance is the best way to tank in the game currently. Hull tanking is a PvP favorite (can't believe I'm going down this road :mad:) because hull heals have greater effect than shield heals. It's also easier to stack hull resists than it is to stack shield resists, and there are more hull heals and hull resists currently in the game than shield heals and shield resists. In addition, there's several abilities designed to strip away shields (or reduce their regen rate) including power drains, science abilities, weapon procs, etc., but the only way to strip away hull is to deal direct damage to it.
You're basically handing the best damage output (hull penetration, to get around the best resist in the game) and the best defense (hull resist) to one single ship type, which also happens to be your pet favorite ship type.
I can't imagine you're ignorant enough to not realize we can all see right through this facade, so I have to ask why you persist in insisting that you're not heavily favoring cruisers, to the detriment of the other ship types?
It's not a misunderstanding, it's a fundamental flaw in your idea. But since you don't want to focus on that, I'm instead going to just address your question.
The system we have currently is not broken; in fact, it works quite well. You are proposing a very radical change to that system in order to suit your personal tastes. I could speculate (probably accurately) on why that is, but I won't. Instead, I will just point out that you want to replace a properly functioning system with a brand new system that doesn't have the benefit of several YEARS of patches, updates, tweaks, fixes, feedback, etc. Doesn't that seem rather like a bad idea?
At the speed Cryptic fixes bugs, we'd be left with a very buggy new "starship trinity" for probably 3 years before it finally resembled anything close to the level of polish we have currently. Do you really want to play a much buggier version of space combat for the next 3 years or so just so your pet cruisers can be the end-all, be-all of starship combat? :rolleyes:
The flaw is assuming players are unhappy. The flaw is assuming everyone wants to fly cruisers. The flaw is assuming that the game design is broken and needs improvement. The flaw is assuming players agree with your concept of what is "right" for STO. There's so many things wrong with your proposal that I am ill-equipped to explain them all.
It boils down to the fact that there's a REASON nearly all MMOs are designed with the same general trinity - it's easy to develop, easy to understand, and easy to tweak. The only players who have animosity towards the "damage dealers" are the players who haven't maximized their own character's potential. Not everyone has to be (or should be!) the "damage dealers". Healers, tanks, crowd control, etc. are all necessary parts of the game.
You can run into an STF with 5 escorts, and if they all know what they are doing, it will be "fast and easy"... until the high damage NPCs show up. Then, the escorts either die, or they have to start rotating out of combat to stay alive. Meanwhile, even a moderately-well built cruiser can sit in the battle the whole time, not only keeping themself alive, but also healing one or two ships around them. They become a "base of operations", so to speak, for the rest of the group.
Science ships are similarly useful for their crowd control abilities. Power drains, AOEs, etc. all make it much easier to kill NPCs. Science ships best compliment escorts with their gravity wells, tyken's rifts, etc. which bunch the NPCs up into one neat little bundle for maximum AOE potential.
There's nothing broken in this system. It has been carefully crafted and balanced to ensure each ship has a role, and each role is useful. If you are not having fun playing a cruiser, you need to fly a different ship, not demand cruisers be changed to fit your personal preferences in play-style.
Nope, you're just shifting the placement of the raw numbers, and your new configuration very obviously heavily favors cruisers. It equally obviously is meant to make escorts near-worthless.
I don't see anyone but PvPers complaining about escorts. I do see players trying to fly cruisers and science ships as-if they were escorts, but those players are always the first to die or ruin a group mission (such as an STF). I don't care what the PvPers think, and I'm not going to waste my time with newbies. PvPers account for SINGLE DIGIT PERCENTAGES of the player base in nearly every MMO, and STO is no exception. There's plenty of other players who are ready and willing to coach the newbies. Everyone else, who make up the vast majority of the playerbase, know what they want to fly and how to set it up properly.
You're deliberately cherry-picking through the playerbase in an attempt to support your misguided ideas.
No, I did answer the question, you just apparently lack general reading comprehension. Here it is in simple form: I do not support, in any way, shape, or form, your idea. As I and others have repeatedly stated, it is nothing more than a very thinly veiled and poorly thought-out attempt to nerf escorts and super-buff cruisers. The 5 pages of disagreement with you should have been enough to convince you that no one here really wants what you're proposing, nor do they want anything that resembles it.
It's also obvious that you expect changes based on the "framework" of your proposal. You want to see cruisers deal the most damage while still retaining their status as the best available tanks. You want to see escort damage drastically reduced in order to protect your cruiser from being beaten up in PvP. I've already thought about your idea quite thoroughly, and I'm not willing to entertain it any further. It would ruin my chosen playstyle (PvE) by making it much harder across the board to kill NPCs. Fast, agile escorts would no longer be able to bring significant damage potential where it is needed in a timely manner, and slow lumbering cruisers would arrive to engagements too late to be of any real use.
That's not even mentioning how PvP would become nothing but a cruiser slough-fest, but I already know that's exactly what you're hoping for.
I wouldn't play if such a thing were to occur. I would walk away from the game and never look back. I have a lifetime subscription that I purchased when the game was still in BETA. It has paid for itself at least twice over by now, so I stand to lose nothing but my characters and the time invested. Since I've already been through that with SWG, to a much greater degree, it would not bother me in the slightest. I'm already disenchanted with PWE and the blatant monetization of the game, changing its core mechanics would just be the final nail in the coffin.
I'm not the only person who would do this, either. Space combat is by and far the most loved part of the game. Change it, and people will leave in droves. This is not "doom is nigh" talk, you can quite easily prove it just by asking the players around you.
No, it really isn't. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" That includes investigating pointless "alternatives" to what already works well.
I'll amuse myself by reading your responses, but you'll get no further discussion from me.
I totally agree with you.
I have seen so much evidences that cruisers can actually pump some serious damage that i came to the conclusion that the only reason some players complain their cruisers are bad are because they are simply bad players who do not understand all the game mechanics and how weapon power, buffs and debuffs and all else work in game.
And like you said, one of the system greatest strength is the possibility for players to endorse any role they wish in game simply by changing ship class, modifying BO skills in your BO seats depending of what you wanna do and equipping your ship properly.
For exemple, all my klingon characters are currently piloting a Kar'Fi carrier ( to me it remains one of the best all around ship in game ) and they all do great in them no matter what their profession is. Their class skills only bring a nice variation on the overall ship offense and defenses capability but it would very hard to say that any of them really is better than the others.
Sure, if all you know to do with your zombie cruiser is to equip hull/shield heal skills then do not expect to be a great damage dealer, you'll be a damage soaker. But if you want to build your cruiser for offense, there are plenty BO skills that can turn your cruiser into a potent damage dealer. You might not have access to all the nifty escort tactical abilities but if you can keep all your arrays at full power with buffs, they will do damage. Without counting that with 8 weapon slots, you can also carry mines, torpedoes and other special weapons over all that.
My Odyssey equipped with 6 Spiral Wave arrays, the 180 quantum torp and a aft trico mine can definitely harm pretty much anything in game and soak alot of dmg. It is not as bursty as an escort rapid fire but FAW is not to be neglected when your weapon power is buffed to the roof.
The game is not perfect, there are issues but i really believe that the rumor claiming that Cruisers are totally outclassed in dmg by most escorts is grossly exagerated. Sure, they come second but really not far behind when you closely look at the numbers.
You make a really straight to the point argument and i tend to agree with you. The game as it is currently leaves room for lot of versatility, customization of roles, hybridization and i personally like it. Pigeonholing players into immuable roles is incredibly boring IMHO.
If you know what you are doing, you are helpful and you help get the job done by any mean you can, then it is good enough for me in my book.
As I stated before, some people will always be unhappy, no matter what the developer does.
Part of the issue may be the fan base. People see the Enterprise-D and the Voyager in combat and want to do those things, forgetting that the mechanics need to be balanced, meaning that since Crytpic went the route of the holy trinity, everything needs to balance out as such (IMHO they need to work a little bit more on balancing, especially with the power creep and the c-store ships and lock-box consoles but that is another debate).
Again, cruisers need to know their role. If you can make a damge dealing cruiser (as I've seen on multiple occasions) more power to you. OTOH, I don't want people to expect me to do anything else in my escort but kill things, and my team mates are right to expect me to crowd control with my science vessel (although with a dual chroniton beam, dual antiproton beam, and a chroniton torpedo launcher in the foward arc expect me to take some pot shots at the enemy
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