Agreed. There is not an MMO in existence that has no grind. It just doesn't happen. It could happen, but for the 20 or so years the genera has been around there has been grind, even going back to the old MUDs.
Is the grind enjoyable or is it misery? Is the reward at the end of the grind worth it or is it marginal? Some game systems hide the grind extremely well and some, like STO's reputation system, do not hide it all all -- it even goes out of it's way to show you how much of an artificial sink it is. That's the difference.
Is the grind enjoyable or is it misery? Is the reward at the end of the grind worth it or is it marginal? Some game systems hide the grind extremely well and some, like STO's reputation system, do not hide it all all -- it even goes out of it's way to show you how much of an artificial sink it is. That's the difference.
To be fair, very few of them hide it well - people actually pay a monthly fee to grind in WoW, and it's not hidden at all there. In STO now at least there is a finite end to the grind - in a month I will be done with the Reputation grind, and anything more I want to do with it will be because I want to use it to make Dil for something else. Before S7, the grind went on until you were lucky enough to get the drop you needed - which is how most MMOs have traditionally worked.
To be fair, very few of them hide it well - people actually pay a monthly fee to grind in WoW, and it's not hidden at all there. In STO now at least there is a finite end to the grind - in a month I will be done with the Reputation grind, and anything more I want to do with it will be because I want to use it to make Dil for something else. Before S7, the grind went on until you were lucky enough to get the drop you needed - which is how most MMOs have traditionally worked.
Only for the Mk XII STF ground and space sets.
What people seem to be ignoring is that all the other stuff (that didn't require a grind and wasn't at the whim of the RNG) is now locked behind the rep system.
Even playable mission content i.e. the New Romulus missions.
Before the rep system I could get the complete Borg Mk XI set in as little as 8 Elite STFs (or 2 hours of gameplay) - and now..?
You could get the Mk XII ones in as little as 45 minutes, you would just have to be really lucky. You would have to be lucky to get all 3 of the Mk XI ones in two hours as well. It took me about 50 runs to get all three Mk XI pieces, over the course of three weekends, which really isn't much more time than it is going to take the average person logging in nightly to do the grind for marks and Dil and get them; taking the randomness out of the equation just does one thing - make it less random.
You could get the Mk XII ones in as little as 45 minutes, you would just have to be really lucky. You would have to be lucky to get all 3 of the Mk XI ones in two hours as well. It took me about 50 runs to get all three Mk XI pieces, over the course of three weekends, which really isn't much more time than it is going to take the average person logging in nightly to do the grind for marks and Dil and get them; taking the randomness out of the equation just does one thing - make it less random.
Umm - read again? Borg Set - as in 15 EDCs, as in 4 x 4 EDCs on double EDC days? (and yeah, it should've been 4 Elite STFs over an hour).
And regarding the Mk XI MACO/KHG/Omega - yeah - it was 40 EDCs a piece so a minimum of 30 Elite STFs were necessary for a complete Space or Ground Mk XI set (or course, you could've already gotten Rare/Proto Tech whilst you were doing those STFs).
And again, the only thing that was random was the Proto Tech (well, and the Salvage but that dropped pretty regularly). The new system may have eliminated the random aspect, but that alone doesn't make it 'better' - in fact (as I previously mentioned), time and resource gating story content behind the reputation system just made the game worse.
Yeah, sorry, missed that. But you also need to remember how hard it used to be to get that set before they split the STFs. I always thought it was too easy to get them in that system, and that they were too good for that little effort. It devalued the Aegis set, which was much more "grindy" to get but about the same usefulness and less perks. Also remember that the version we had pre-S7 unlocks at Tier I, and that if you do Elite STFs you can get the marks to get the items pretty quickly. I think the amount of effort to unlock them at this point is about right for the level of gear you get as a reward.
I think the other thing to remember is that most people didn't do Elite STFs; I got my Mk XI Borg and MACO sets doing normal ones because I didn't feel right dragging everyone down with a weak build - and honestly I wish more people would think that way - especially now. Elite STFs are just plain awful on the weekends now.
Only if you are vain enough to be seen in the latest lockbox ship, or wanna become james bond lookalike with the formal attire set, or you want to deck out your entire ship with all the available unique consoles out there, then you gotta pay. Makes perfect sense doesn't it? Want more? Pay up.
+100
You don't need to pay anything to play STO to the full potential. Other MMO's out there? Not so much. SWTOR is a horrible F2P model, and its not even a MMO its a single player game that happens to be hosted on their servers basically.
In STO now at least there is a finite end to the grind - in a month I will be done with the Reputation grind, and anything more I want to do with it will be because I want to use it to make Dil for something else. Before S7, the grind went on until you were lucky enough to get the drop you needed - which is how most MMOs have traditionally worked.
Yup, now with Season 7 there is a defined end to grinds, so with Season 6's fleet star bases, once its done, its done.
Before Season 6 there really was not enough end game content, now the fleets and the new Season 7 stuff can keep us busy for a while longer, even if it is all just a "grind".
I predicted that SWTOR was going to end up like this the moment I read this:
"If there is even a question about whether the game is Pay to Win, you have failed".
It just showed beyond any doubt that they had no idea what they were doing. To make money on a F2P game, you need to give the free players everything that subscribers got (minus a few small things), and then give them incentives to spend money. In DDO, it was buying the weapons and armor for your class so you didn't have to grind a dozen missions to get it. In STO, it's giving the players cool ships that are only marginally better than the ones you can get for free, but enough to make it worth the money. Yes, it's "pay to win", but not by such a margin that it makes the free players go "this sucks, I can't compete - I quit".
SWTOR went with the other F2P philosophy, "we will give you a taste and you will want to subscribe." It doesn't work that way - you end up with two really big problems. First, you end up with veterans who won't play with new players because the new players don't have the gear needed to keep up, and second you end up with new players who get frustrated because they are not getting that feeling of advancement that all MMOs need to convey to keep people playing. Add those two factor together and you have a death spiral, not a game.
What they don't understand is that f2p isn't for convincing people the game is worth subscribing -- that's what a trial is.
F2p is for players who are quite willing to spend money on the game, but not in the same way or rate as a subscription. (I've spent a lot of money on free games)
STO's zen/dilithium system is genius, because it gets countless people who reject the idea of paying to work at below minimum wage to provide resources that other people will pay cash for.
Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
STO's zen/dilithium system is genius, because it gets countless people who reject the idea of paying to work at below minimum wage to provide resources that other people will pay cash for.
You got that right. Way below minimum wage. It's brilliant.
I'll sell you some weapons from New Romulus. Never fired, only dropped once.
Comments
Is the grind enjoyable or is it misery? Is the reward at the end of the grind worth it or is it marginal? Some game systems hide the grind extremely well and some, like STO's reputation system, do not hide it all all -- it even goes out of it's way to show you how much of an artificial sink it is. That's the difference.
To be fair, very few of them hide it well - people actually pay a monthly fee to grind in WoW, and it's not hidden at all there. In STO now at least there is a finite end to the grind - in a month I will be done with the Reputation grind, and anything more I want to do with it will be because I want to use it to make Dil for something else. Before S7, the grind went on until you were lucky enough to get the drop you needed - which is how most MMOs have traditionally worked.
"Star Wars" is one of the most annoying and brainwashing franchises to exist.
If I had the opportunity, I would pay god to erase "Star Wars" from existence.
Only for the Mk XII STF ground and space sets.
What people seem to be ignoring is that all the other stuff (that didn't require a grind and wasn't at the whim of the RNG) is now locked behind the rep system.
Even playable mission content i.e. the New Romulus missions.
Before the rep system I could get the complete Borg Mk XI set in as little as 8 Elite STFs (or 2 hours of gameplay) - and now..?
Umm - read again? Borg Set - as in 15 EDCs, as in 4 x 4 EDCs on double EDC days? (and yeah, it should've been 4 Elite STFs over an hour).
And regarding the Mk XI MACO/KHG/Omega - yeah - it was 40 EDCs a piece so a minimum of 30 Elite STFs were necessary for a complete Space or Ground Mk XI set (or course, you could've already gotten Rare/Proto Tech whilst you were doing those STFs).
And again, the only thing that was random was the Proto Tech (well, and the Salvage but that dropped pretty regularly). The new system may have eliminated the random aspect, but that alone doesn't make it 'better' - in fact (as I previously mentioned), time and resource gating story content behind the reputation system just made the game worse.
I think the other thing to remember is that most people didn't do Elite STFs; I got my Mk XI Borg and MACO sets doing normal ones because I didn't feel right dragging everyone down with a weak build - and honestly I wish more people would think that way - especially now. Elite STFs are just plain awful on the weekends now.
+100
You don't need to pay anything to play STO to the full potential. Other MMO's out there? Not so much. SWTOR is a horrible F2P model, and its not even a MMO its a single player game that happens to be hosted on their servers basically.
Yup, now with Season 7 there is a defined end to grinds, so with Season 6's fleet star bases, once its done, its done.
Before Season 6 there really was not enough end game content, now the fleets and the new Season 7 stuff can keep us busy for a while longer, even if it is all just a "grind".
Jim
"If there is even a question about whether the game is Pay to Win, you have failed".
It just showed beyond any doubt that they had no idea what they were doing. To make money on a F2P game, you need to give the free players everything that subscribers got (minus a few small things), and then give them incentives to spend money. In DDO, it was buying the weapons and armor for your class so you didn't have to grind a dozen missions to get it. In STO, it's giving the players cool ships that are only marginally better than the ones you can get for free, but enough to make it worth the money. Yes, it's "pay to win", but not by such a margin that it makes the free players go "this sucks, I can't compete - I quit".
SWTOR went with the other F2P philosophy, "we will give you a taste and you will want to subscribe." It doesn't work that way - you end up with two really big problems. First, you end up with veterans who won't play with new players because the new players don't have the gear needed to keep up, and second you end up with new players who get frustrated because they are not getting that feeling of advancement that all MMOs need to convey to keep people playing. Add those two factor together and you have a death spiral, not a game.
F2p is for players who are quite willing to spend money on the game, but not in the same way or rate as a subscription. (I've spent a lot of money on free games)
STO's zen/dilithium system is genius, because it gets countless people who reject the idea of paying to work at below minimum wage to provide resources that other people will pay cash for.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
You got that right. Way below minimum wage. It's brilliant.
Hey, what works works. It keeps the lights on, no?