ho by the way, hereticknight.. just why do you call the dreadnought cruiser a failnaught?
i would really like to known.
i am sure it can't be because it is gimp...no it can't, it is good as it is, as all cruiser are.
so i really want to known why you calling it that.
If you guys don't think the cruisers should get a bump from a 6 turn rate to an 8 then , what do you think will happen when you fight against the new Chal Grett Cruiser with its 13 point base turn rate, Commander and LT Commander Tac BOFF slots, and console slots of an escort? Your broadsiding won't do TRIBBLE to a ship like that.
So, its essentail a Fleet Armitage with one more gun and one less hangar and a weaker turn rate. They have the same hull hp can load dhc. The Chal Grett is in similar terms to the Fleet Armitage and the Chimera. Treat it as such, its not going to heal itself very well so keep on wailing at it. The Breen ship isnt the end of the world for Fed' cruiser captains.
I've been able to take down PvP Raptors and Vor'cha, The Chal Grett won't be that much different than the difference of those two.
If you fly assualt cruisers or excelsior class, they don't come with the over slow 6 point turn rate. The Excelsior comes with an 8 point turn rate so if you flying that, you can't complain. Everybody don't want to fly the same type of ship just to get a reasonable turn rate. Now there are more super ships comming out, there needs to be a balance to that or the fabric of tha game will fall apart. If the ship has a turn rate of 6 in needs an upgrade to be competetitive.
I have a feeling that even if you gave an Odyssey an 8 point turn rate, you'd still be upset. It still won't turn like the Excel' because its inertial value is worse. You could give the Ody' a 10 turn rate and my Excel' would still out turn it.
1) the odyssey DAES have 6 degree base turn rate.
Check the cstore information or stowiki for that
And dont come here telling me that i should do better with the strenght of my ship when you dont even know the turnrate of your ship.
2) read my post carrefully, and re read it again, where did you see i want a ship as nimble as a negvar? 6+0.5= 6.5 exactly where did you see that as nimble as 8?
3) you find your odyssey to turn good? Fine so do i, just like i said in my precedent post
4) +0.5 degree turn rate= god ship? Is that a joke?
Cruiser are meant to be good tank, yes but some of them can have theeth also, see some klingons cruiser for that, and even the recently exelsior, regent, dkora.
It is not white and black in this world and so it is in this game.
So stop with your false preconsive idea, just like an other forumer told you recently, lately you lost the plot big time my friend.
Klingon cruisers are supposed to have firepower. They are KDF. Secondly, ok fine, you're right, the Oddy has a base turn rate of 6, even though last I checked it was 5. So either it changed and nobody told me, or the Wiki was wrong to begin with and somebody fixed it. And to your final point, .5 turn rate is HUGE for a cruiser. Add in skills and engines, that .5 can turn into a good 2 or 3 degrees. So no, not a joke.
Lastly, that bit about telling you to do better with your ship was a simple observation. I was just pointing out that cruisers aren't meant to really move around or turn. They are meant to be tanks. And last I checked, the tanks job was to take it's beating and be perfectly fine. Nowhere is a tank described as being highly mobile. At least not as games go (cuz tbh the Sherman tank was pretty nimble). And besides, you can't have it all. You need to sacrifice to gain. In this case, one can EASILY get their AC/SC/Odyssey to turn like a beast, and move like one too. But you will sacrifice survivability to do it. And I would rather keep my live forever over moving around thanks much.
Tbh, I just see this thread as a waste of time for the simple reason that they won't change anything, despite what we want/say/complain about. But I will say, this is an improvement over the majority of OPs other threads, since he actually posted up possible solutions instead of just complaining. Now if he wasn't so demanding, I think we'd have real progress here.
Not trying to start anything, just pointing out that despite what you said there is a major problem here. The breen ship makes all fed cruisers with offensive setups like the regent and excelsior pointless to use, which are both popular ships. A lot of fed players don't like using non-starfleet ships, I know a lot of people that don't want to use the breen ship because its not starfleet. Why should we have to suffer for liking the feel of Star Trek as it was in the shows and movies when the name of the game is Star Trek Online? Kinda defeats the purpose.
Is the Chel'gret from Star Trek? Yes. Was it one of the nastiest ships ever encountered by Starfleet? Yes. Was it one of the fastest and most maneuverable large ships ever encountered by Starfleet? Yes. Was it highly offensively oriented and a very effective combat ship in the show? Yes. Where is the in game version diverging from the show?
Nobody is forcing you to fly it. And it's not a very optimal tank. In fact, it's not even a cruiser. It's a warship. That's why it's called the Breen Chel'Gret WARSHIP. It's designed for combat, killing, ruining other people's lives. If you want to fly your Starfleet ships, go right ahead. There are still better combat ships than the Chel'gret, and there are still better tanks. It's just an effective hybrid, nothing else.
ho by the way, hereticknight.. just why do you call the dreadnought cruiser a failnaught?
i would really like to known.
i am sure it can't be because it is gimp...no it can't, it is good as it is, as all cruiser are.
so i really want to known why you calling it that.
I call it the failnaught because it's one of three fed non-escort ships that can use DHCs and DCs, and it's turn rate is abysmal. The ship is not aesthetically pleasing, and even though it has great potential, it's ruined by the fact it's a galaxy class. It's tactical BOffs are severely lacking for a ship that's supposed to be an attacker, and overall, it's just not a great ship. I call it a failnaught most specifically because I usually just see them failing. Players try to turn them into cannon boats, and get boned by someone just getting behind them and laughing as they only have to face turrets.
It's what is called an opinion. You know, those things people have? That may or may not be facts, but it's how they see things? Yeah. Those.
P.S. It's rude to call others noobs, especially not to their face unless you have specific and accurate information showing they are (which you don't), others who feel that way (which you probably do, but tbh I just can't be bothered to care, and I know many people who would disagree with that), and actual real hard evidence (like screenshots, videos, those kinds of things, which again I know you don't have). Also, what does the word "daes" mean?
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Is the Chel'gret from Star Trek? Yes. Was it one of the nastiest ships ever encountered by Starfleet? Yes. Was it one of the fastest and most maneuverable large ships ever encountered by Starfleet? Yes. Was it highly offensively oriented and a very effective combat ship in the show? Yes. Where is the in game version diverging from the show?
Nobody is forcing you to fly it. And it's not a very optimal tank. In fact, it's not even a cruiser. It's a warship. That's why it's called the Breen Chel'Gret WARSHIP. It's designed for combat, killing, ruining other people's lives. If you want to fly your Starfleet ships, go right ahead. There are still better combat ships than the Chel'gret, and there are still better tanks. It's just an effective hybrid, nothing else.
I never said anyone is forcing me to fly it, I never said it is an optimal tank (although not optimal it can be made very hard to kill if you know how) and the whole point is that yes, I can fly starfleet ships and yes some are still effective, but the Breen ship still makes the offensive Starfleet cruisers obosolete in many ways, the only thing left is that they have a better boff setup for survival instead of damage, yet in pve you really don't need a whole lot of heals and defense buffs.
Yes it is from Star Trek, but as you also mentioned it has been encountered by Starfleet before, and now the availibility in the game implies that Starfleet has complete access to it, therefore why wouldn't they be able to adapt the technology that makes it so maneuverable from it to give exsiting cruisers a higher turn rate? Plus you miss the fact that in the show any ship outfitted for war was considered a warship (the Galaxy class Enterprise D was called a warship by other factions although by Starfleet designation it was a cruiser) and the npcs in the game are named Breen Chel'grett Cruiser, so where is this warship class coming from? That would imply that it is either not a warship or that it is not the original from the series, so the point is invalid.
I also decided to read some of your other posts, and saw that you are obviously in favor of OP ships and other players comment on the matter and you return with something saying that you spent a lot of time on it and refuse to view it as OP. So I see no more point in discussing the matter with you.
The whole thing has also become rather off topic from the thread, so I will not make any further reply on the matter.
When the cheese starts dropping, there's a clear advantage.
Now, in no-cheese matches - I'd say the Feds have the advantage.
Shame that's how Cryptic went about trying to balance KDF ships against Fed ships, eh?
You speak as if there is not enough cheese on both sides feed all the mice that will ever exist.
Yeah, I'm rather amused by that. It's like they don't see their superior escorts, their entire science ship class, and their uber tanking/healing cruiser builds. Not to mention they have their own console exclusives as well, which they almost never suggest giving to the KDF in exchange.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
First, i should not be force to choose a faction because they happen to have the best cruiser.
I don't want to play klingons! So stop with your " hey sorry pal! You want a cruiser that rock? You better change faction!"
So much for the flexibility!
I think you choose a faction because you like their ideology if i may say or spirit.
The excuse and argument to have a faction with better ship is a nonsense and if it were made to get more people play klingons side, the numbers proove that this is a magistral fail attemp.
Now, no battlecruiser in fed side? What did you call the galaxy x then?
A ship that has been refit and equip with canon, cloack,a third nacelle to be on part with new ships of that times, and a spinal phaser lance.... A PEACE EXPLORATION CRUISER?
And don't respond to me this is not a battleship it a dreadnought!
This is a war ship!!
Mind you i dont want it to have to much turn rate, i do like the feeling of it slow turn, but here it just getting ridiculous, i bielieve that +0.5 turn rate and better inertia should do the trick, dont worry negvar pilote are safe with their 8 degree turn rate.
For other cruiser a buff should be apply intelligently in relation to the design role of the ship
Even if a better turn rate would do good to a star crruiser, here it is absolutly not neccesary, it not a dps ship, it would be a waste.
Same for odyssey, this ship dont need a buff, he can already turn better than gal x if you equip the 3 consoles.
So in the end only the tactical oriented cruiser should have a buff in turn rate, and this buff can even be done so that they stay less agile as klink cruiser.
But the gap should be reduce.
And I dont wish to give every small advantage we KDF have to a bunch of spolied fed players who feel thier being cheated because outside of a scripted enviroment thier fancy cruiseships are not the warships every backwater race they encountered in thier travels said they where.
Just because its fed does not mean its always the best.
If memory serves the Neghvar of the AGT timeline was considered nimbler than the Galaxy of the sametime line.
The best thing to do to make all the Cruisers fans happy is just offer the new Breen cruiser setup in a plethora of fed cruiser styles and be done with it. Sell it in the cstore. Finally the feds who want a Tactical superior ship to anything KDF can finally have exactly the fan favorite Enterprise clone though want from what era they want and this can stop.
Just because its fed does not mean its always the best.
There really shouldn't be a best on either side over the other side.
The constant bickering back and forth by both Feds (primarily) and KDF about this...doesn't really reflect an attitude by either side for any sort of balanced gameplay.
I agree completely that the newer line of ships such as the breen ship having the hull of a cruiser while functioning as an escort makes it way OP. I am in a regent and personally have no problem broadsiding enemies and the wide angle torp launcher is real good for that, but there is still the problem that the breen ship makes all other cruisers pointless; an engineer could make it hard to kill with their class heals and buffs, therefore they are doing the damage of an escort with the hull of a cruiser and the heals/buffs of an engineer, defeating the purpose of all other cruisers, unless you want a heal boat which outside of pvp is kinda useless.
Now a good reason for cruisers to have better turn rate other than to balance things, is that with the new omega and romulan torps having a 90 degree arc they are near useless on a cruiser since you by the time you turn to use it and then turn back to broadsiding with beams you will probably lose dps and get tired of having to constantly turn to use them. I am perfectly aware that the wide angle quantum torp was meant for this and works great, but why should cruisers lose out on 2 new weapons (and the set bonuses that go with them) that you work so hard to get? I got the omega torp 2 days ago and feel a mix of sadness that I can't effectively use my new weapon and straight up anger.
So here is the solution: make the romulan and omega torps wide angle too (they really should be anyway since they are unique weapons that should be usable to all playstyles), and either increase current cruiser turn rate or lower the breen ship's turn rate.
I do plan to get the breen ship, but I love the starfleet feel of the regent and its fun to broadside with beams, so why should I and others lose out for trying to get the greatest joy from my favorite game?
Yeah, I'm not really looking forward to picking Breen ships out of my teeth after everyone gets theirs. Every fedbear and their uncle will be flying the effing things, as if KDF players didn't have enough overall disadvantages to fight against (decent sci ships, superior escorts, unkillable zombie tanks, etc).
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
There really shouldn't be a best on either side over the other side.
The constant bickering back and forth by both Feds (primarily) and KDF about this...doesn't really reflect an attitude by either side for any sort of balanced gameplay.
The eluding to the KDF being equalized to the feds via cheese.
Its well known to most fans that on a flat level basis the feds have a better choice of ships but the cheese is spread thick ever where in STO.
Cheese is cheese and the KDF did not corner the market on it.
I agree on the bickering too. One more fed post on how the Fed cruoser is really a battleship and STO is disrespecting it has driven over the edge.
Battlecruisers are the only thing KDF has left that makes them unique..If you want a battlecruiser, go KDF.
One faction having everything another faction does makes for an excessively boring game. Feds have CVs now, soon Feds will have CBs, what's next?
Fed-captured Bortas.
Wait, that'd be hilarious. Because nobody would use it.
Yeah, I can think of about 2 things that really distinguish the KDF from the Federation in terms of ship style. The BoP, and the battlecruisers. The built-in cloak is a possible 3rd, but it's not OP like certain fedbears would like to claim.
The BoP has great turnrate, the universal boffs, and the battlecloak. The universal boffs aren't as unique, now, due to Cryptic throwing universal boffslots every which way now, the turnrate doesn't mean quite as much in the face of Defiants and Jem bugs chaining Pattern Omegas, evasive maneuvers, and other speed/turn boosters, and the battlecloak is useful in the right hands. The Fed whiners STILL call it OP (or something to that effect) and complain about the hit-and-run tactics that the battlecloak (and hence the BoP) are naturally suited for.
The battlecruisers. . .well, that's what this thread is about :P
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
There really shouldn't be a best on either side over the other side.
The constant bickering back and forth by both Feds (primarily) and KDF about this...doesn't really reflect an attitude by either side for any sort of balanced gameplay.
You don't balance gameplay by making both factions identical. That just screws things up, and negates the whole point of having two factions. You balance gameplay by giving each faction unique advantages that are roughly equivalent in usefulness. More and more, however, the KDF faction has been LOSING its advantages, while the Federation retains their or gains some. That's not balanced. . .but I don't see feddies whining about all the advantages their faction has/gets. All I see is them demanding more and more stuff that's supposed to be KDF exclusive. I still see fedbears making posts about battlecloaks, there's threads like this about 'balancing' the cruisers, and so on and so forth, etc, etc.
The problem is, Cryptic listens to the Fedbears, and generally neglects the KDF faction. The feddies open their wallets, and Cryptic gives them what they want. . .balance be damned. I would honestly not be surprised if they eventually gave the Feddies a battlecloak (perhaps in the guise of a lockbox Romulan ship or some such thing) and actual battlecruisers. It's not like they ever really gave a damn about the KDF faction, anyhow.
My PvP toon is Krov, of The House of Snoo. Beware of my Hegh'ta of doom.
so why should I and others lose out for trying to get the greatest joy from my favorite game?
Ive been slinging the same logic about KDF gameplay for a while now. Do you really want ise it to justify this fed change?
I just ask because us KDF fans would like that same question answered.
As much this idea could have possibilites...the merits of it more factually based in reality.
FACT--A World War 2 PT boat has a better truning rate to a destroyer of that time.
FACT--A today's modern Aircraft Carrier needs a mle or so, to come to a complete stop.
FACT--A person on rollerblades may be able to turn better on a difficult corner, than on a person on a motorcycle.
The common factor with all three examples, is size, speed and how much control of turning one has from the first two factors. The smaller the craft/ship/vehicle is, the more speed one can attain, the biggger it is, is quite the opposite, but you will have more control, but less speed.
This is commonly known in the field of science...but yes, this is a video game, such things in reality should not apply.
Now that they keep introducing more cruiser/escort hybrids, they need to consider revamping the turn rates for the existing cruisers. The Breen Chel Gret Cruiser is larger than the Excelsior and as wide as a Galaxy, yet they are giving it the base turn rate of a Chimira? I'm not going to even touch on the other Uberness of the ship, because that's a different subject. When it's base turn rate is 13, after adding player's skill tree, other consoles, and special engines, the ship will be just as fast and manuverable as a defiant. With the Galaxy, Odyssey, Catian Carrier, and Vo'Quv turning at rate of 6, it makes alot of the new cruisers look like they are on a sugar high. A turn rate of 8 at the least would be helpful in making these slow behemoth ships more competitive in PVP and n PVE.
so why should I and others lose out for trying to get the greatest joy from my favorite game?
Ive been slinging the same logic about KDF gameplay for a while now. Do you really want ise it to justify this fed change?
I just ask because us KDF fans would like that same question answered.
Well the thread seemed to be originally based on fed cruisers needing a turn rate increase, but some of the larger kdf ships do indeed need the same, just not most of the battle cruisers like some have said, they are fine (i've seen plenty turn as well escorts), its just the big ones like the vo'quv, bortas, ect.
Also, yes I personally would use that to justify the fed change, since I also support the same for KDF gameplay, I love playing KDF too, just fed is more fun because of the fact that they have a broader content. In addition, last I heard KDF gameplay is the next project, if not then it is coming sooner than most think. I don't remember the name of the post, but it was definitely announced that KDF content is being worked on and will most likely be the next season, I don't know if this has changed though.
As much this idea could have possibilites...the merits of it more factually based in reality.
FACT--A World War 2 PT boat has a better truning rate to a destroyer of that time.
FACT--A today's modern Aircraft Carrier needs a mle or so, to come to a complete stop.
FACT--A person on rollerblades may be able to turn better on a difficult corner, than on a person on a motorcycle.
The common factor with all three examples, is size, speed and how much control of turning one has from the first two factors. The smaller the craft/ship/vehicle is, the more speed one can attain, the biggger it is, is quite the opposite, but you will have more control, but less speed.
This is commonly known in the field of science...but yes, this is a video game, such things in reality should not apply.
I would be fine with fed cruisers having a slow turn but fast spin rate versus the KDF having a faster turn versus but slower spin rate.
I'd like to know which one can turn with escorts, because my Flor'Kaht doesn't and it's one of the better-turning battlecruisers..
My fleetmate was using a fleet tor'kath, 1 RCS console and turned almost as well my fleet qin heavy raptor that had no RCS consoles at 1/4 impulse speed, both using KHG Mk XII engines. It also depends if you have any skill points in thrusters.
The eluding to the KDF being equalized to the feds via cheese.
I can see where it might have come off like that. It was really more about how it appeared that Cryptic took that route early on. Rather than giving KDF ships balanced against Fed ships on their own right...they added "stuff" to try to reach that balance. When they started breaking out the cross-ship console stuff earlier in the year...yeah...and well, it's kind of mind-boggling.
You don't balance gameplay by making both factions identical.
Never said that was the way to balance things. At the same time, there are just going to be certain things that both sides will have.
Carriers? The Federation is made up of how many different planets?
Battle Cruisers? The Federation is made up of how many different planets?
Consider the KDF... Nausicaan, Orion, Gorn, and even Fek'Ihri influence are right there along with the Klingon stuff.
Kind of like the Romulans and the Hirogen, eh?
If you go to participate in a car race, you don't complain that other folks showed up with...cars...too, right? Are all those cars going to be the same? Nope, there's going to be various differences to them (all while keeping within whatever rules apply to the race).
I come from the school of opportunity cost.
Say we're designing a ship, eh? For it to be balanced against other ships, you take a look at the stats you want to give it.
Take X ship first. It's got high health, mediocre damage, low turn.
Say we want Y ship to turn faster. In turning faster, we're likely also going to be increasing the damage it does. So we're going to have to drop the health to balance Y against X.
Sometimes Cryptic does that - sometimes they don't. Sometimes it looks like they're going to do that, and then they go off on a tangent.
It's kind of weird, because we've got our little power sliders there. We move one up, the other three drop down - unless we've locked them or there's no room for them to go down further...in which case we can't increase that one any more.
Yet when you look at the ships...yeah, there's no sliders. There's no balance of X vs. Y.
I'm not sure they really ever will. They're going to continue throwing toys at the Feds in the hope they buy them - they're going to continue throwing cross-faction toys out in the hope that some Feds and KDF will buy them.
Given the differences between the Ody and Bortas, I'm really curious what the 3rd Anniversary ships will be, eh?
Hard to tell if they're actually going to do the Ambassador for the Feds there or not - kind of leaning toward that with the mention of the FE and all the rest playing on the Romulan stuff. So what does that mean for the KDF? Will they drop out some sort of pseudo cruiser for the KDF? Will it be a ship "balanced" against the Ambassador, will it be a ship balanced against some other Fed ship, or will it just be another BoP? I'm trying to remember that episode. So what, K'Vort Battle Cruiser/BoPs?
Meh, I'm done with this thread... I disagree that Cruisers need better turn. I just think that certain ships have way too high of a turn - they're basically turning like fighters, like I said earlier in the thread.
My fleetmate was using a fleet tor'kath, 1 RCS console and turned almost as well my fleet qin heavy raptor that had no RCS consoles at 1/4 impulse speed, both using KHG Mk XII engines. It also depends if you have any skill points in thrusters.
So he had to console/skill it to turn that well, it didn't do it by default.
I can think of consoles I'd rather use then RCS consoles..
Your Raptor still turned better, despite his sticking RCS consoles on, while you had none.
That in no way means battlecruisers turn with escorts..
The Flor'Kaht is maneuverable for a cruiser, but it's still nowhere near as maneuverable as, say, an HEC...
I never said anyone is forcing me to fly it, I never said it is an optimal tank (although not optimal it can be made very hard to kill if you know how) and the whole point is that yes, I can fly starfleet ships and yes some are still effective, but the Breen ship still makes the offensive Starfleet cruisers obosolete in many ways, the only thing left is that they have a better boff setup for survival instead of damage, yet in pve you really don't need a whole lot of heals and defense buffs.
Yes it is from Star Trek, but as you also mentioned it has been encountered by Starfleet before, and now the availibility in the game implies that Starfleet has complete access to it, therefore why wouldn't they be able to adapt the technology that makes it so maneuverable from it to give exsiting cruisers a higher turn rate? Plus you miss the fact that in the show any ship outfitted for war was considered a warship (the Galaxy class Enterprise D was called a warship by other factions although by Starfleet designation it was a cruiser) and the npcs in the game are named Breen Chel'grett Cruiser, so where is this warship class coming from? That would imply that it is either not a warship or that it is not the original from the series, so the point is invalid.
I also decided to read some of your other posts, and saw that you are obviously in favor of OP ships and other players comment on the matter and you return with something saying that you spent a lot of time on it and refuse to view it as OP. So I see no more point in discussing the matter with you.
The whole thing has also become rather off topic from the thread, so I will not make any further reply on the matter.
Subject terminated.
"Subject terminated." Right. So because you have that lifer tag under your name and you don't agree with someone, you just terminate the subject? Leaving no room for someone to answer is an immature and straight out sad thing to say and do. So I will ignore what you said and answer anyways.
Now to answer your post. Yes, it makes some fed cruisers obsolete, but that doesn't matter. You can still fly them all you want. Which is what you were getting at before, since it seems like you were implying due to the difference in ability, you would be forced to use the Breen warship, and I was simply stating that you didn't have to.
And as for your second point, starfleet only has access to it at Q's pleasure. And the way the Breen get that kind of maneuverability from their ships is easy. If you read Memory Alpha and other Star Trek technical manuals, you will see what the Breen did is not special kind of technology. They just position the engines on their ships further apart than on most federation and klingon ships, and they use MORE THAN ONE ENGINE. This gives them huge speed and turn capabilities, which is reflected by the breen warship in this game.
However that doesn't entirely answer your question as to why doesn't Starfleet use that same tech? It's simple. They do use the same technology. But they don't maximize their ship designs the same way the Breen and other species do. Starfleet is notorious for having ships that are incredibly modular and adaptable, but not maximized for any particular role. The Chel Grett was designed with combat solely in mind. It's like the Undine Nicor, Klingon Vor'cha, Hirogen Hunter Escort, Romulan Mogai, Andorian Shran Class, and most Dominion ships. It's a combat ship, nothing else. Most Starfleet ships are multi-pupose ships. They aren't maximized for fighting, moving, or anything. They can do them, but tend to not specialize in them. The only ship that was in Canon designed by starfleet solely for combat was the Defiant and her class. But if you look at where her engines, more specifically impulse manifolds are located? They are on the "wings", the outer edge of the ship. Further from the center than any previous design. Which if you know how engines work, makes their maneuverability skyrocket. Look at a Chel Grett. Same design. Engines located FAR from the center mass of the ship. Same result.
I will grant you that as time went on, Starfleet started to build more ships that were combat oriented (like the Sovereign and subsequent designs), but for the most part, they tended to follow the usual engine designs of the previous models, with the impulse manifolds basically directly behind center mass, which meant that turning was harder on the ship, and would happen more slowly as a result.
And for your next point about the warship as opposed to cruiser designation? That is actually a legitimate question. Allow me to answer.
Remember! Captains who participate in the "Fastest Game on Ice" event 25 times during the 35+ days of the Winter Event will skate their way to a FREE Breen Chel Grett Warship! Stats on the ship have been posted here.
Straight from the dev blog (link). And wait, there's more!
... Breen Chel Grett is a formidable Warship, and it is extremely maneuverable for its size...
As you can see, it's a Breen Chel Grett WARSHIP. Hell that second page introducing the ship is even titled as such. It's not a cruiser. The BOff layout alone says that. There is no cruiser (not even on the KDF side) that doesn't have a Cmdr Engineering slot. And yet the Chel Grett doesn't. There is no cruiser with a Cmdr Tactical slot. And yet the Chel Grett has one. Sorry buddy, not a cruiser.
If you even look at the NPCs in game, you will see them under the cruiser class yes. But that's what ALL ships that size are. Escorts and Science ships fall under that same category. You don't believe me? You say you do KDF TRIBBLE all the time. If you do the Pi Canis Sorties, check the class of the science ships and escorts they have you fight. They are obviously not cruisers, but they will usually fall under that same class.
Now as for your final paragraph, which I see as interesting and rather informative of how far back you actually look and how well your sense of balance isn't tuned, I will simply state that yes, a lot of things I posted were silly. But as I got more used to this game, the posts became a little less hot-headed and silly, and actually became viable and legitimate. Most of my cruiser threads were rage threads since I was getting heavily out-damaged by escorts and was looking at canon. It took me a while to figure out this game was anything but canon, and I had to change my perspective. Which I have done. I also learned how to maximize my cruisers performance to the point where it's no longer being left in the dust by escorts, and I am no longer wishing for too many buffs.
And back on topic? Yeah, I probably overreacted to your first post, for which I apologize. But I kind of get annoyed at OP and anyone who agrees outright with him, since I don't really like his methodology or a lot of his ideas. And I am sorry you were subject to it. However what I really feel is that yes, cruisers could use a little bit more of a turn buff, and could probably use with a do-over completely, at least as PvE is concerned. I have been told and I have found out they work wonderfully in PvP, but since this game is 90% PvE, that is the perspective I am forced to look from the majority of the time.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
Here's a simple idea that everyone here can feel free to ignore:
Why not give the Fleet versions of all these ships (and the flagships), the turn rate buff?
I mean, a good portion of ships have a Fleet version. Everything from the Excelsior to the B'rel.
Maybe not to the escorts and BoPs, but at least all the cruisers and sci ships. Perhaps it could be an 'efficiency' thing in a way? The lower the base turn, the more it gains? Now it wouldn't be an 'equalizer', it wouldn't allow a Fleet Negh'var turn as well as the Fleet Vor'cha, but it would help a lot.
In turn, some cruisers like an Excelsior would get a nice bump up to turn more, without going over the top.
Then everyone gets what they want pretty much on BOTH sides, and it also adds a bit more incentive to get a fleet ship (or the flagships) as well if you know you are going to have the turn rate buff.
I remain empathetic to the concerns of my community, but do me a favor and lay off the god damn name calling and petty remarks. It will get you nowhere.
I must admit, respect points to Trendy for laying down the law like that.
Here's a simple idea that everyone here can feel free to ignore:
Why not give the Fleet versions of all these ships (and the flagships), the turn rate buff?
I mean, a good portion of ships have a Fleet version. Everything from the Excelsior to the B'rel.
Maybe not to the escorts and BoPs, but at least all the cruisers and sci ships. Perhaps it could be an 'efficiency' thing in a way? The lower the base turn, the more it gains? Now it wouldn't be an 'equalizer', it wouldn't allow a Fleet Negh'var turn as well as the Fleet Vor'cha, but it would help a lot.
In turn, some cruisers like an Excelsior would get a nice bump up to turn more, without going over the top.
Then everyone gets what they want pretty much on BOTH sides, and it also adds a bit more incentive to get a fleet ship (or the flagships) as well if you know you are going to have the turn rate buff.
This wouldn't affect lockbox ships at all though.
I rather like this idea. Say a 10-20% buff for fleet versions? I mean it does state that fleet versions are basically maximized ships are they not? The only catch here would be that the Odyssey and Bortasqu (the ships that would benefit the most from this) won't get it, since they don't have fleet versions. Or you could finally have a reason to get those pieces of trash in the fleet store over the c-store ones. Or not. But good idea.
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once.
And I'll say the same thing that I likely say to any feddie wanting the equivalent of a battlecruiser: USE A KDF TOON!!! Stop suggesting that you be given cruiser traits that are more in line with the KDF, and just effing use a KDF toon. Buy a Vor'cha, and maneuver your heart out. Or fly a gimped Qin raptor (which Cryptic refuses to fix) that flies like a cruiser.
Enough with these god@mn threads asking for buffed cruiser turnrates.
I agree completely that the newer line of ships such as the breen ship having the hull of a cruiser while functioning as an escort makes it way OP. I am in a regent and personally have no problem broadsiding enemies and the wide angle torp launcher is real good for that, but there is still the problem that the breen ship makes all other cruisers pointless; an engineer could make it hard to kill with their class heals and buffs, therefore they are doing the damage of an escort with the hull of a cruiser and the heals/buffs of an engineer, defeating the purpose of all other cruisers, unless you want a heal boat which outside of pvp is kinda useless.
Now a good reason for cruisers to have better turn rate other than to balance things, is that with the new omega and romulan torps having a 90 degree arc they are near useless on a cruiser since you by the time you turn to use it and then turn back to broadsiding with beams you will probably lose dps and get tired of having to constantly turn to use them. I am perfectly aware that the wide angle quantum torp was meant for this and works great, but why should cruisers lose out on 2 new weapons (and the set bonuses that go with them) that you work so hard to get? I got the omega torp 2 days ago and feel a mix of sadness that I can't effectively use my new weapon and straight up anger.
So here is the solution: make the romulan and omega torps wide angle too (they really should be anyway since they are unique weapons that should be usable to all playstyles), and either increase current cruiser turn rate or lower the breen ship's turn rate.
I do plan to get the breen ship, but I love the starfleet feel of the regent and its fun to broadside with beams, so why should I and others lose out for trying to get the greatest joy from my favorite game?
The problem is that the Chel Grett is not a new line of ships. It is as old as any other ship in the DS9 series. If you going to turn one cruiser into a giant escort, you might as well do the same justice to the rest, or at least give them the option to counter balance it.
No, seriously. I can only imagine this is their way of introducing the next tier of ship. Like the free Ody was the introduction to fleet ships the breen not-a-cruiser is the way they introduce the next tier that will come after fleet ships. Not "technically" more powerful but sporting boff layouts and weapon configs that were kept separate before. They need to release new things for us to buy not upgrade things we've already paid. Personally I dislike it as much as anyone but I cannot imagine why else they would release what is in essence a giant escort in a the guise of a cruiser. It even has a Tac CMDR station.
That's actually their philosophy overall in respect to dealing with the KDF. They get better consoles and better Dil sources. I think its a poor way of handling it that only fosters resentment and bitterness.
They could sell us Boff Slot and console slots like ships. That i would save and spend money on.
Comments
i would really like to known.
i am sure it can't be because it is gimp...no it can't, it is good as it is, as all cruiser are.
so i really want to known why you calling it that.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=528931&page=271
Very true. Very true.
So, its essentail a Fleet Armitage with one more gun and one less hangar and a weaker turn rate. They have the same hull hp can load dhc. The Chal Grett is in similar terms to the Fleet Armitage and the Chimera. Treat it as such, its not going to heal itself very well so keep on wailing at it. The Breen ship isnt the end of the world for Fed' cruiser captains.
I've been able to take down PvP Raptors and Vor'cha, The Chal Grett won't be that much different than the difference of those two.
I have a feeling that even if you gave an Odyssey an 8 point turn rate, you'd still be upset. It still won't turn like the Excel' because its inertial value is worse. You could give the Ody' a 10 turn rate and my Excel' would still out turn it.
Klingon cruisers are supposed to have firepower. They are KDF. Secondly, ok fine, you're right, the Oddy has a base turn rate of 6, even though last I checked it was 5. So either it changed and nobody told me, or the Wiki was wrong to begin with and somebody fixed it. And to your final point, .5 turn rate is HUGE for a cruiser. Add in skills and engines, that .5 can turn into a good 2 or 3 degrees. So no, not a joke.
Lastly, that bit about telling you to do better with your ship was a simple observation. I was just pointing out that cruisers aren't meant to really move around or turn. They are meant to be tanks. And last I checked, the tanks job was to take it's beating and be perfectly fine. Nowhere is a tank described as being highly mobile. At least not as games go (cuz tbh the Sherman tank was pretty nimble). And besides, you can't have it all. You need to sacrifice to gain. In this case, one can EASILY get their AC/SC/Odyssey to turn like a beast, and move like one too. But you will sacrifice survivability to do it. And I would rather keep my live forever over moving around thanks much.
Tbh, I just see this thread as a waste of time for the simple reason that they won't change anything, despite what we want/say/complain about. But I will say, this is an improvement over the majority of OPs other threads, since he actually posted up possible solutions instead of just complaining. Now if he wasn't so demanding, I think we'd have real progress here.
Is the Chel'gret from Star Trek? Yes. Was it one of the nastiest ships ever encountered by Starfleet? Yes. Was it one of the fastest and most maneuverable large ships ever encountered by Starfleet? Yes. Was it highly offensively oriented and a very effective combat ship in the show? Yes. Where is the in game version diverging from the show?
Nobody is forcing you to fly it. And it's not a very optimal tank. In fact, it's not even a cruiser. It's a warship. That's why it's called the Breen Chel'Gret WARSHIP. It's designed for combat, killing, ruining other people's lives. If you want to fly your Starfleet ships, go right ahead. There are still better combat ships than the Chel'gret, and there are still better tanks. It's just an effective hybrid, nothing else.
I call it the failnaught because it's one of three fed non-escort ships that can use DHCs and DCs, and it's turn rate is abysmal. The ship is not aesthetically pleasing, and even though it has great potential, it's ruined by the fact it's a galaxy class. It's tactical BOffs are severely lacking for a ship that's supposed to be an attacker, and overall, it's just not a great ship. I call it a failnaught most specifically because I usually just see them failing. Players try to turn them into cannon boats, and get boned by someone just getting behind them and laughing as they only have to face turrets.
It's what is called an opinion. You know, those things people have? That may or may not be facts, but it's how they see things? Yeah. Those.
P.S. It's rude to call others noobs, especially not to their face unless you have specific and accurate information showing they are (which you don't), others who feel that way (which you probably do, but tbh I just can't be bothered to care, and I know many people who would disagree with that), and actual real hard evidence (like screenshots, videos, those kinds of things, which again I know you don't have). Also, what does the word "daes" mean?
I never said anyone is forcing me to fly it, I never said it is an optimal tank (although not optimal it can be made very hard to kill if you know how) and the whole point is that yes, I can fly starfleet ships and yes some are still effective, but the Breen ship still makes the offensive Starfleet cruisers obosolete in many ways, the only thing left is that they have a better boff setup for survival instead of damage, yet in pve you really don't need a whole lot of heals and defense buffs.
Yes it is from Star Trek, but as you also mentioned it has been encountered by Starfleet before, and now the availibility in the game implies that Starfleet has complete access to it, therefore why wouldn't they be able to adapt the technology that makes it so maneuverable from it to give exsiting cruisers a higher turn rate? Plus you miss the fact that in the show any ship outfitted for war was considered a warship (the Galaxy class Enterprise D was called a warship by other factions although by Starfleet designation it was a cruiser) and the npcs in the game are named Breen Chel'grett Cruiser, so where is this warship class coming from? That would imply that it is either not a warship or that it is not the original from the series, so the point is invalid.
I also decided to read some of your other posts, and saw that you are obviously in favor of OP ships and other players comment on the matter and you return with something saying that you spent a lot of time on it and refuse to view it as OP. So I see no more point in discussing the matter with you.
The whole thing has also become rather off topic from the thread, so I will not make any further reply on the matter.
Subject terminated.
Domination of just PuGs is not enough.
R.I.P
You speak as if there is not enough cheese on both sides feed all the mice that will ever exist.
R.I.P
Yeah, I'm rather amused by that. It's like they don't see their superior escorts, their entire science ship class, and their uber tanking/healing cruiser builds. Not to mention they have their own console exclusives as well, which they almost never suggest giving to the KDF in exchange.
Battlecruisers are the only thing KDF has left that makes them unique..If you want a battlecruiser, go KDF.
One faction having everything another faction does makes for an excessively boring game. Feds have CVs now, soon Feds will have CBs, what's next?
Fed-captured Bortas.
Wait, that'd be hilarious. Because nobody would use it.
And I dont wish to give every small advantage we KDF have to a bunch of spolied fed players who feel thier being cheated because outside of a scripted enviroment thier fancy cruiseships are not the warships every backwater race they encountered in thier travels said they where.
Just because its fed does not mean its always the best.
If memory serves the Neghvar of the AGT timeline was considered nimbler than the Galaxy of the sametime line.
The best thing to do to make all the Cruisers fans happy is just offer the new Breen cruiser setup in a plethora of fed cruiser styles and be done with it. Sell it in the cstore. Finally the feds who want a Tactical superior ship to anything KDF can finally have exactly the fan favorite Enterprise clone though want from what era they want and this can stop.
R.I.P
Hrmmm...where do I say anything like that?
There really shouldn't be a best on either side over the other side.
The constant bickering back and forth by both Feds (primarily) and KDF about this...doesn't really reflect an attitude by either side for any sort of balanced gameplay.
No!. You can't tell me what to do!
-goes to pout in a corner-
Yeah, I'm not really looking forward to picking Breen ships out of my teeth after everyone gets theirs. Every fedbear and their uncle will be flying the effing things, as if KDF players didn't have enough overall disadvantages to fight against (decent sci ships, superior escorts, unkillable zombie tanks, etc).
The eluding to the KDF being equalized to the feds via cheese.
Its well known to most fans that on a flat level basis the feds have a better choice of ships but the cheese is spread thick ever where in STO.
Cheese is cheese and the KDF did not corner the market on it.
I agree on the bickering too. One more fed post on how the Fed cruoser is really a battleship and STO is disrespecting it has driven over the edge.
I apoligise Virusdancer.
R.I.P
Yeah, I can think of about 2 things that really distinguish the KDF from the Federation in terms of ship style. The BoP, and the battlecruisers. The built-in cloak is a possible 3rd, but it's not OP like certain fedbears would like to claim.
The BoP has great turnrate, the universal boffs, and the battlecloak. The universal boffs aren't as unique, now, due to Cryptic throwing universal boffslots every which way now, the turnrate doesn't mean quite as much in the face of Defiants and Jem bugs chaining Pattern Omegas, evasive maneuvers, and other speed/turn boosters, and the battlecloak is useful in the right hands. The Fed whiners STILL call it OP (or something to that effect) and complain about the hit-and-run tactics that the battlecloak (and hence the BoP) are naturally suited for.
The battlecruisers. . .well, that's what this thread is about :P
You don't balance gameplay by making both factions identical. That just screws things up, and negates the whole point of having two factions. You balance gameplay by giving each faction unique advantages that are roughly equivalent in usefulness. More and more, however, the KDF faction has been LOSING its advantages, while the Federation retains their or gains some. That's not balanced. . .but I don't see feddies whining about all the advantages their faction has/gets. All I see is them demanding more and more stuff that's supposed to be KDF exclusive. I still see fedbears making posts about battlecloaks, there's threads like this about 'balancing' the cruisers, and so on and so forth, etc, etc.
The problem is, Cryptic listens to the Fedbears, and generally neglects the KDF faction. The feddies open their wallets, and Cryptic gives them what they want. . .balance be damned. I would honestly not be surprised if they eventually gave the Feddies a battlecloak (perhaps in the guise of a lockbox Romulan ship or some such thing) and actual battlecruisers. It's not like they ever really gave a damn about the KDF faction, anyhow.
Ive been slinging the same logic about KDF gameplay for a while now. Do you really want ise it to justify this fed change?
I just ask because us KDF fans would like that same question answered.
R.I.P
FACT--A World War 2 PT boat has a better truning rate to a destroyer of that time.
FACT--A today's modern Aircraft Carrier needs a mle or so, to come to a complete stop.
FACT--A person on rollerblades may be able to turn better on a difficult corner, than on a person on a motorcycle.
The common factor with all three examples, is size, speed and how much control of turning one has from the first two factors. The smaller the craft/ship/vehicle is, the more speed one can attain, the biggger it is, is quite the opposite, but you will have more control, but less speed.
This is commonly known in the field of science...but yes, this is a video game, such things in reality should not apply.
Well the thread seemed to be originally based on fed cruisers needing a turn rate increase, but some of the larger kdf ships do indeed need the same, just not most of the battle cruisers like some have said, they are fine (i've seen plenty turn as well escorts), its just the big ones like the vo'quv, bortas, ect.
Also, yes I personally would use that to justify the fed change, since I also support the same for KDF gameplay, I love playing KDF too, just fed is more fun because of the fact that they have a broader content. In addition, last I heard KDF gameplay is the next project, if not then it is coming sooner than most think. I don't remember the name of the post, but it was definitely announced that KDF content is being worked on and will most likely be the next season, I don't know if this has changed though.
I'd like to know which one can turn with escorts, because my Flor'Kaht doesn't and it's one of the better-turning battlecruisers..
I would be fine with fed cruisers having a slow turn but fast spin rate versus the KDF having a faster turn versus but slower spin rate.
R.I.P
My fleetmate was using a fleet tor'kath, 1 RCS console and turned almost as well my fleet qin heavy raptor that had no RCS consoles at 1/4 impulse speed, both using KHG Mk XII engines. It also depends if you have any skill points in thrusters.
I can see where it might have come off like that. It was really more about how it appeared that Cryptic took that route early on. Rather than giving KDF ships balanced against Fed ships on their own right...they added "stuff" to try to reach that balance. When they started breaking out the cross-ship console stuff earlier in the year...yeah...and well, it's kind of mind-boggling.
Never said that was the way to balance things. At the same time, there are just going to be certain things that both sides will have.
Carriers? The Federation is made up of how many different planets?
Battle Cruisers? The Federation is made up of how many different planets?
Consider the KDF... Nausicaan, Orion, Gorn, and even Fek'Ihri influence are right there along with the Klingon stuff.
Kind of like the Romulans and the Hirogen, eh?
If you go to participate in a car race, you don't complain that other folks showed up with...cars...too, right? Are all those cars going to be the same? Nope, there's going to be various differences to them (all while keeping within whatever rules apply to the race).
I come from the school of opportunity cost.
Say we're designing a ship, eh? For it to be balanced against other ships, you take a look at the stats you want to give it.
Take X ship first. It's got high health, mediocre damage, low turn.
Say we want Y ship to turn faster. In turning faster, we're likely also going to be increasing the damage it does. So we're going to have to drop the health to balance Y against X.
Sometimes Cryptic does that - sometimes they don't. Sometimes it looks like they're going to do that, and then they go off on a tangent.
It's kind of weird, because we've got our little power sliders there. We move one up, the other three drop down - unless we've locked them or there's no room for them to go down further...in which case we can't increase that one any more.
Yet when you look at the ships...yeah, there's no sliders. There's no balance of X vs. Y.
I'm not sure they really ever will. They're going to continue throwing toys at the Feds in the hope they buy them - they're going to continue throwing cross-faction toys out in the hope that some Feds and KDF will buy them.
Given the differences between the Ody and Bortas, I'm really curious what the 3rd Anniversary ships will be, eh?
Hard to tell if they're actually going to do the Ambassador for the Feds there or not - kind of leaning toward that with the mention of the FE and all the rest playing on the Romulan stuff. So what does that mean for the KDF? Will they drop out some sort of pseudo cruiser for the KDF? Will it be a ship "balanced" against the Ambassador, will it be a ship balanced against some other Fed ship, or will it just be another BoP? I'm trying to remember that episode. So what, K'Vort Battle Cruiser/BoPs?
Meh, I'm done with this thread... I disagree that Cruisers need better turn. I just think that certain ships have way too high of a turn - they're basically turning like fighters, like I said earlier in the thread.
Have fun, all...
So he had to console/skill it to turn that well, it didn't do it by default.
I can think of consoles I'd rather use then RCS consoles..
Your Raptor still turned better, despite his sticking RCS consoles on, while you had none.
That in no way means battlecruisers turn with escorts..
The Flor'Kaht is maneuverable for a cruiser, but it's still nowhere near as maneuverable as, say, an HEC...
"Subject terminated." Right. So because you have that lifer tag under your name and you don't agree with someone, you just terminate the subject? Leaving no room for someone to answer is an immature and straight out sad thing to say and do. So I will ignore what you said and answer anyways.
Now to answer your post. Yes, it makes some fed cruisers obsolete, but that doesn't matter. You can still fly them all you want. Which is what you were getting at before, since it seems like you were implying due to the difference in ability, you would be forced to use the Breen warship, and I was simply stating that you didn't have to.
And as for your second point, starfleet only has access to it at Q's pleasure. And the way the Breen get that kind of maneuverability from their ships is easy. If you read Memory Alpha and other Star Trek technical manuals, you will see what the Breen did is not special kind of technology. They just position the engines on their ships further apart than on most federation and klingon ships, and they use MORE THAN ONE ENGINE. This gives them huge speed and turn capabilities, which is reflected by the breen warship in this game.
However that doesn't entirely answer your question as to why doesn't Starfleet use that same tech? It's simple. They do use the same technology. But they don't maximize their ship designs the same way the Breen and other species do. Starfleet is notorious for having ships that are incredibly modular and adaptable, but not maximized for any particular role. The Chel Grett was designed with combat solely in mind. It's like the Undine Nicor, Klingon Vor'cha, Hirogen Hunter Escort, Romulan Mogai, Andorian Shran Class, and most Dominion ships. It's a combat ship, nothing else. Most Starfleet ships are multi-pupose ships. They aren't maximized for fighting, moving, or anything. They can do them, but tend to not specialize in them. The only ship that was in Canon designed by starfleet solely for combat was the Defiant and her class. But if you look at where her engines, more specifically impulse manifolds are located? They are on the "wings", the outer edge of the ship. Further from the center than any previous design. Which if you know how engines work, makes their maneuverability skyrocket. Look at a Chel Grett. Same design. Engines located FAR from the center mass of the ship. Same result.
I will grant you that as time went on, Starfleet started to build more ships that were combat oriented (like the Sovereign and subsequent designs), but for the most part, they tended to follow the usual engine designs of the previous models, with the impulse manifolds basically directly behind center mass, which meant that turning was harder on the ship, and would happen more slowly as a result.
And for your next point about the warship as opposed to cruiser designation? That is actually a legitimate question. Allow me to answer.
Straight from the dev blog (link). And wait, there's more!
(link)
As you can see, it's a Breen Chel Grett WARSHIP. Hell that second page introducing the ship is even titled as such. It's not a cruiser. The BOff layout alone says that. There is no cruiser (not even on the KDF side) that doesn't have a Cmdr Engineering slot. And yet the Chel Grett doesn't. There is no cruiser with a Cmdr Tactical slot. And yet the Chel Grett has one. Sorry buddy, not a cruiser.
If you even look at the NPCs in game, you will see them under the cruiser class yes. But that's what ALL ships that size are. Escorts and Science ships fall under that same category. You don't believe me? You say you do KDF TRIBBLE all the time. If you do the Pi Canis Sorties, check the class of the science ships and escorts they have you fight. They are obviously not cruisers, but they will usually fall under that same class.
Now as for your final paragraph, which I see as interesting and rather informative of how far back you actually look and how well your sense of balance isn't tuned, I will simply state that yes, a lot of things I posted were silly. But as I got more used to this game, the posts became a little less hot-headed and silly, and actually became viable and legitimate. Most of my cruiser threads were rage threads since I was getting heavily out-damaged by escorts and was looking at canon. It took me a while to figure out this game was anything but canon, and I had to change my perspective. Which I have done. I also learned how to maximize my cruisers performance to the point where it's no longer being left in the dust by escorts, and I am no longer wishing for too many buffs.
And back on topic? Yeah, I probably overreacted to your first post, for which I apologize. But I kind of get annoyed at OP and anyone who agrees outright with him, since I don't really like his methodology or a lot of his ideas. And I am sorry you were subject to it. However what I really feel is that yes, cruisers could use a little bit more of a turn buff, and could probably use with a do-over completely, at least as PvE is concerned. I have been told and I have found out they work wonderfully in PvP, but since this game is 90% PvE, that is the perspective I am forced to look from the majority of the time.
Why not give the Fleet versions of all these ships (and the flagships), the turn rate buff?
I mean, a good portion of ships have a Fleet version. Everything from the Excelsior to the B'rel.
Maybe not to the escorts and BoPs, but at least all the cruisers and sci ships. Perhaps it could be an 'efficiency' thing in a way? The lower the base turn, the more it gains? Now it wouldn't be an 'equalizer', it wouldn't allow a Fleet Negh'var turn as well as the Fleet Vor'cha, but it would help a lot.
In turn, some cruisers like an Excelsior would get a nice bump up to turn more, without going over the top.
Then everyone gets what they want pretty much on BOTH sides, and it also adds a bit more incentive to get a fleet ship (or the flagships) as well if you know you are going to have the turn rate buff.
This wouldn't affect lockbox ships at all though.
I rather like this idea. Say a 10-20% buff for fleet versions? I mean it does state that fleet versions are basically maximized ships are they not? The only catch here would be that the Odyssey and Bortasqu (the ships that would benefit the most from this) won't get it, since they don't have fleet versions. Or you could finally have a reason to get those pieces of trash in the fleet store over the c-store ones. Or not. But good idea.
Too, bad.
The problem is that the Chel Grett is not a new line of ships. It is as old as any other ship in the DS9 series. If you going to turn one cruiser into a giant escort, you might as well do the same justice to the rest, or at least give them the option to counter balance it.
They could sell us Boff Slot and console slots like ships. That i would save and spend money on.