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Does PvP now warrant serious commitment?
devorasx
Member Posts: 693
From the developers?
To start I want to present a huge thanks to our revolutionary Sargon. Havent it been for you, this newfound interest in pvp would never have taken place. I too want to thank Borticus and Brandon for showing their interest and supporting us from Cryptics side. Heck I wouldnt even dare write this post if the evidence I will now write about didnt present itself... as it did.
So...
Yes yes I know, its an old topic, debated, dicussed and beaten to death over and over. But NOW my pvp friends on both sides, we have come to a turning point, to our Stalingrad. Thanks to the pvp Boot Camp, we the community have finally spoken. Long ago a certain dev gave in to despair and wrote the following, i quote:
"Before I was given PVP I had other day to day and week to week tasks that filled out my schedule. I had STF's and other stuff. That other stuff is being moved off of my plate to other new content designers. Which by the way is a answer to another question I noticed earlier, the fact that we now have a few more people in the design department is a direct result of PWE. If we didn't have additional staff, this wouldn't be happening.
Oh and for the record... I asked to be given PVP, it wasn't forced on me. I personally think it has a great deal of potential, it just needs attention."
"Right now because PVP is in such bad shape we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way."
End quote.
Well well, do I got a newsflash for you!
If we exclude the current active to semi active pvp population, we have in this thread the hard evidence. There are more then 200 applicants ALONE who says pvp MATTERS to them. And this thread is growing and growing and still very fresh! So I ask and that very zealously: Does the Senior Devs still think pvp isnt worth commiting resources towards when we the paying customers show such a huge interest in pvp exist?
If you ask me its about due time! 2 bloody years of neglect, that now more devoted time and hard resources should be commited towards this aspect of the game. In the end it was we, the PLAYERS of this wonderful game that managed to demonstrate that we WANT a functional and developed pvp. Whats sad is that the game developers who are suppose to promote their game in all apsects, both pvp and pve, failed at this. Still there is room to forgive and improve, to realize that the pvp aspect of the game is now on the move. We refuse to be neglected no longer.
So what say ye?
To start I want to present a huge thanks to our revolutionary Sargon. Havent it been for you, this newfound interest in pvp would never have taken place. I too want to thank Borticus and Brandon for showing their interest and supporting us from Cryptics side. Heck I wouldnt even dare write this post if the evidence I will now write about didnt present itself... as it did.
So...
Yes yes I know, its an old topic, debated, dicussed and beaten to death over and over. But NOW my pvp friends on both sides, we have come to a turning point, to our Stalingrad. Thanks to the pvp Boot Camp, we the community have finally spoken. Long ago a certain dev gave in to despair and wrote the following, i quote:
"Before I was given PVP I had other day to day and week to week tasks that filled out my schedule. I had STF's and other stuff. That other stuff is being moved off of my plate to other new content designers. Which by the way is a answer to another question I noticed earlier, the fact that we now have a few more people in the design department is a direct result of PWE. If we didn't have additional staff, this wouldn't be happening.
Oh and for the record... I asked to be given PVP, it wasn't forced on me. I personally think it has a great deal of potential, it just needs attention."
"Right now because PVP is in such bad shape we (the developers) have to decide if we think we can turn this problem around. Participation in PVP-related activities is so low on an hourly, daily, weekly, and monthly basis that we could in fact just completely take it out of STO and it would not impact the overall number of people [who] log in to the game and play in any significant way."
End quote.
Well well, do I got a newsflash for you!
If we exclude the current active to semi active pvp population, we have in this thread the hard evidence. There are more then 200 applicants ALONE who says pvp MATTERS to them. And this thread is growing and growing and still very fresh! So I ask and that very zealously: Does the Senior Devs still think pvp isnt worth commiting resources towards when we the paying customers show such a huge interest in pvp exist?
If you ask me its about due time! 2 bloody years of neglect, that now more devoted time and hard resources should be commited towards this aspect of the game. In the end it was we, the PLAYERS of this wonderful game that managed to demonstrate that we WANT a functional and developed pvp. Whats sad is that the game developers who are suppose to promote their game in all apsects, both pvp and pve, failed at this. Still there is room to forgive and improve, to realize that the pvp aspect of the game is now on the move. We refuse to be neglected no longer.
So what say ye?
Co-founder of The Spanish Inquisition TSI - Cause no one expects it!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Post edited by devorasx on
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For most players pvp is something you do while waiting for pve cooldowns.
these arent all the people currently playing ether, a great many of them could be the teachers. from what i saw a large number of those signing up have a 1 by their experience. they would like to pvp, but its unapproachable to them, until now.
pvp needs attention from the devs, and it will be played. especially if a slew of new players will soon be equipped with the knowledge needed to compete. just look at the STF revamp, content that was hardly touched turned into the most played thing in game.
This. This right here. This is the crux of the problem. There aren't enough rewards associated with PvP activity. From a resource-gathering standpoint, there's zero reason to do PvP over PvE. It doesn't even reach parity. I don't even think you can reach your daily refining cap off of what's offered for PvP. If you can, then you probably can't do it every day. . .because there's some sort of weird time-gating system with a few of the missions that makes them disappear for 3-4 days at a time.
Want to revitalize PvP? Attach some real effing rewards onto it. Make the 'Ship Killer' mission against the Feds into a 20-30 ship count mission and boost the reward to 1k/1.5k dilithium. Give us specific ship kill missions (kill 10 science ships, 10 cruisers, 10 escort, w/e). Establish a decent system of rewards, and you'll see a lot more people trying their hand at it. That, combined with efforts like the Boot Camp, and other efforts by helpful PvPers, will help make PvP something relevant to the game at large.
Another suggestion would be this: Establish an in-game ranking system, tied with the factions at large. I.E., every time a KDF player defeats a Federation player in space, add a point onto the KDF side. Vice versa for Feddies. Also establish an individual-level system, so that players can compare and contrast the amount of kills they have and compete over that.
Fix Ker'rat so it's not a buggy POS (complete with stretching Borg ships, Borg and player ships getting stuck in the environment, etc) and increase the user capacity of each zone. While you're at it, add more spawnpoints and get rid of the moronic 'restart spawning Federation and Klingon players at the same point'.
There's no shortage of ideas as to what could be done, and I'll bet they would make PvP a lot more appealing to players who want more of a challenge, but don't see the point of doing PvP due to lack of rewards.
It's a curious thing, imo, how normally I would suggest that the PvP itself is reward enough for and from the PvP...
I generally believe that. I kind of prefer that - in casual PvP games. In more...I hate to use the term hardcore...pressing PvP games, where you're fighting for territory - your city - etc, etc, etc - literally, not just faction - but if you lose, you lose big... well, there are those additional rewards, etc, etc, etc.
However, I can't really make that argument in this case - not for STO the way it currently is (especially now during the Winter event as well).
So I'm running four toons.
Now each of these of these has different time requirements...
But I'm running four toons.
And I'm grinding:
EC to pay for Rep stuff.
Dil for items that I've gotten and I'll eventually get from the Rep stuff.
Romulan Marks (as if a Red Alert will ever work for me again).
Omega Marks (only doing Infected Elite (others regular), because I'm not risking my time on failing other ESTFs).
I'm also DOFFin'.
I'm doing the daily race for the Chel Grett.
I'm doing the FE Reruns (because stupid me has a stupid tendency to delete my stupid toons).
During this time, I'm also working on their builds - doing replays for different gear, buying more DOFFs to try different things, buying gear to try different things, etc, etc, etc.
Before S7... even with rerollitis, it took no time to level (have done it too many times, so it's fast) and then a night of STFs to at least be able to 2+2, 3, 4, or maybe even a decent 2+2, etc, etc, etc. Most of my time was therefore spent over in PUGland in the queues or hanging out in Ker'rat. The PvP was it's own reward.
There's just no time for PvP to be it's own reward at this point...meh.
I actually spent an hour in Ker'rat tonight - I got lucky with some drops I sold that meant I didn't have to do the EC farming bit. Course, it put me a little behind on my Marks and Dil farming... but I needed a break. It was a blast.
It's just not a blast that time really allows for these days...
...maybe in another week, I might do it again.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
How many of them just take part to get the free respecc or the Accolade? STO has more accolade hunters than PvP'ers ;-)
To get more casuals in the queues we need:
a) more advertising on the main page. Something like the 101 dilithium but for PVP.
b) more rewards (MARKS and EC). So that a casual player doesn't have to decide between the Tau Dewa Daily, an STF or PvP. Grinding is more enjoyable when you can decide where to grind xD
BUT you have to remind that STO has a rather small playerbase! Many of them are here to play something that feels like StarTrek. They want to phew phew with a big cruiser. A lot of them are so casual gamers that they even struggle with the NSC winter race :-)
This reminds me of my girlfriend. She is a huge Tolkien fan since ever and has a lifetime abo for LotRO. Has only one max lvl char. Is seldom in a instance. AND NEVER HAS TRIED PVP. And never will. Reason: she just wants to hang out in Middleearth with her elf hunter ;-)
They had for Beta one million subscriber. After that the number felled to ~100.000.
Which isn't really bad for such a small clich? MMO like STO. I'm sure they are now very profitable.
I know getting hard numbers on MMO's is hard . This is the best I could find in a short time.
http://hailingfrequency.com/boards/news-and-announcements/star-trek-online-struggles-with-only-100k-subscribers!/
http://mmodata.blogspot.com/
It is just that only a rather small percentage of a MMO's playerbase is interested in PvP. With a small playerbase it gets rather hard to have a lot of people in the queues.
The problem is that we have a self fullfilling prophecy here. Without proper rewards, advertisement, new content, bug eliminating PvP will decline. With declining usage of PvP content Cryptic can't justify spending money on it ...
They must also invest ressources and hope that it increase revenues. Because only PVP'lers really need respecs, doffs, P2W consoles etc. ... PVE players would be more in love with new clothes, pets and shipsskins.
I hope that they will concentrate on PVP AFTER they added more story content ;-) (Sorry, but I like PVP only as a casual xD)
Yep, the long waiting times for space PVP with my Klingon are turning me off from casual PVP. And the OPVP 10vs10 matches are always when I doing something else xD
But new content means news posts on the main page. Which would always generate a spike in new players.
You are right that something new every season is more useful than have a big update once every 2 years xD
I still think that the "101 How to PVP" on the main page every month would get a big increase in the PVP queues. Thats a lot of advertisement for a low cost.
My thought.
On the one hand it would help to get more rewards for PvP (more Dilithium, any kind of marks), on the other hand as more rewards you get for it, the more Leechers you will have on PvP maps again. I have the feeling that since Season 7 there are less leechers around on PvP Maps.
And the problem concerning the number of players on Space PvP is nothing compared to the numbers on Ground PvP. If you take a UTC+0 Point of View, there are only enough players at the evening hours. The other 18hrs of the day, there is not one single match starting.
What is definietly needed, are more maps and the removal of this invisible cubes embracing the buildings at Shanty Town. For weeks now, you are always running into invisible walls. These invisible cubes are about a meter more expanding than the building itself.
On the other hand, balancing a f2p game with a pay to win cash shop for PvP while not massively pissing lots of people off is almost completely impossible.
So if they do develop PvP more, you should probably never expect it to be even marginally close to a well balanced affair. I think some folks need to come to terms with that.
It won't do anything to the queues.
Face it - you need to PvE a LOT, or even more just to be able to copete in endgame PvP. No new player will stay in PvP in the current state of the game cause they will NOT be able to compete with old(er) players. Not because of lack of skill and experience. Because lack of equipement, crew (DOFFs), passives, P2W stuff. End of story.
After s7 they could really delete PvP. Won't make huge difference for new players if PvP is here or not. It's pretty much unplayable from their perspective. If PvP stays it's only because either:
a) it will cost more to kill it then to leave it alone,
b) those old PvPers are spending more money on P2W and ships/lockboxes then PWE can save by killing PvP.
Harsh? Yeah, but I think how it is now. So I would not count on PvP getting any attention or getting any better. For this to happen they would need to turn the game upside down to the point of creating game mechanics from scratch. I doubt anything less can be made to the game without upsetting the PvE players which are, currently, the main revenoue source.
They will never be able to compete because of new content/abilities that will be added in the future and the skill difference. And PvE time needed to gain newer and newer skills. More PvE = less PvP and this equals less time to learn how to play. Which also means that those newbs will be unable to compete with old players. Ever. Either no time to catch with equipment/abilities or with skill.
Me being example I thought I will roll a new toon and play a little. But as soon as I glimpsed the new changes to the skill/passives/sets, and compared the time needed to be competitive in PvP with what I'm willing to spent in game it was like: the best leveling option is /uninstall. And I'm pretty "old" PvP player, at least when it comes to experience (not necessarily skill) so less time to cross the gap.
And the rewards - if you are a casuall player spending few hours weekly in game and you need to compete with more experienced players with better stuff that you will be able to get in some reasonable time then why bother? Can get the same with less time in PvE and in more friendly environment (AI is the same to everyone).
Exactly! And the AI does not talk trash on the chat!
Even now it takes a lot of time to keep all toons up to date, with this farming for Rep-System. The PvE is so much time consuming, often there is not even enough time to play PvP.
Yep, I've never been a fan of the shiny sticker for participation that turns PvP into AFKfests or losing premades or... yeah, never been a fan of that. It's a dangerous route to offer rewards in PvP - because the "efficiency" crowd will find a way to ruin it.
Cryptic you should know that I am trying to help you. I am not whining or complaining or ******** . I want this game to do well and be fun, I think it is going the other way.
When I would queue for PVP back in the day most of the matches were pretty one sided. Sometimes you would win, but most of the time, you would get steamrolled by premades, and really it just got to a point that I didn't want to queue anymore. There needs to be some teamwork in PVP otherwise you end up focus fired by premades and you just resent ever queuing up for it.
Sargon I think is doing an excellent thing in trying to get those of us (Like me) who don't typically PVP into matches by education and workshops. Perhaps after all this is said and done people will begin to work together instead of flying off in separate directions.
I signed up for it, and hopefully I can learn a thing or two as well as find people like me who can band together and bring some more balanced battles into the PVP queues. As for all the dedicated individuals who are giving up their free time to help us PVP noobs out I salute you. I'm really looking forward to the challenge and really hope everyone can start to better enjoy this long neglected aspect of STO.
I also think that people should get more involved in the OrganizedPVP channel. There are some really talented PVPers in there who have a wealth of information to share and learning a thing or two from them could really help.
Anyway that's just my thought on it. I'm looking forward to the event and cant wait to see what the community can make of it. Good job to everyone!
Fly in Ker'rat. Bring friends. Keep your finger on your defensive buffs.
It's still kind of funny how Ker'rat goes depending on the time.
There could be 10 KDF and 2 Feds.
There could be 10 Feds and 2 KDF.
Rarely do I ever see 2 and 2 or 10 and 10.
There's still the folks that also switch sides - which is kind of funny on the KDF side, since they're going Fed when the Feds outnumber the KDF so they can get their KDF Captain killing.
Ker'rat is...broken - broken on so many levels - and it has been for so long. The only thing they've addressed with it was making it so folks couldn't quickly AFK farm the Dil... the rest? Yeah, I wouldn't hold my breath. Stretchy, hidden, restart respawn, side switching, and all the rest... yeah, wouldn't hold my breath.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
if you haven't played pvp for 2 years, you have no right to say anything about balance. pvp is about 80-90% balances, with few things that are overpowered, spamy TRIBBLE unfortunately.
your placing way to much impotence on factors that effect things the least. all mkx, green, blue equipment, they will work fine. if i ran all white version of what i run now, i would proboly only kick 10-15% less TRIBBLE, that would still be over kill most of the time.
there is no reason to spend a fortune on purple mk XII anything. if you have blue mkxi everything, you are still extreamly competitive. any short coming at that point is in piloting.
the most important thing in pvp is timing, not spaming so you have a constants high dps. the right damage at the right time is what kills. wait for, or create openings and your gear will be the least relivent part of the equation. all the gear you NEED is easy to get, it was stf related, now its the reputation sets. some fleet equipment is good too.
There's a pilot on here who has Youtube clips of him/herself successfully flying in white common equipment
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
I honestly don't mean this in any insulting way possible, but the kind of player who'd only do PvP for material rewards isn't the kind I'd want queueing. The queues have already suffered the latest horde of dil farmers, if you're not queueing for a love of the game you're not being fair to your teammates.
If you absolutely must bribe people, at least tie a win condition in to the rewards or something.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Oh and it is 3 years, not 2 years that we have been waiting on even a single PvP map!
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
And it's definitely one thing for some of us to acknowledge that we need the better gear because of that shortcoming - it's another thing to think that's the case for all.
Even decked out in Mk XII Purps - there are folks that would annihilate me with Mk X Whites...meh.
Some people can't accept that about themselves... I think they'd have more fun if they were to recognize their limitations, accept them, do what they can about it, and just try to have fun.
I would say... "was" easy to get. To an extent, it's still easy to get - it just takes a lot longer. So yeah, it's still "easy" to get, just not as "quick 'n easy" - eh?
Gear matters. DOFFs matters. Passives matters. Lockbox ships matters. Of course you need to know how to use them. So piloting matter to.
And that is told by someone who has never entered endgame PvP with ship equipped with anything else then what can be bought in exchange, no P2W/lockbox ships, no DOFFs used. There were no passives when I left the game, but I would not use those either. And I was told, straight in the face, on this forum, thatn ot using DOFFs puts me on severe disadvantage. I had my fun, sure. Could compete in PuGs from time to time and had nice duels in Ker'rat with some Klings. One on one could compete even with guys from OPvP fleets.
But I felt that my ship, compared to other players was underpowered. It is that simple. No good stuff = you are weaker. Skill or not, the equipement matters.
A person with Mk XII that can't keep his guns on the target will lose to the guy with Mk X that can.
A person with a build for Ship X that's flying Ship Y will lose to the person built for Ship Z that's built for Ship Z.
The guy that's using autofire is likely to lose to the guy that's bound his weapons for greater efficiency with BOFF abilities.
If you take two equally skilled pilots and give one better gear, then yes - the gear will matter.
If you give somebody that has no clue what they're doing the best gear and somebody that can play with their pinky toes while eating Cheetos lesser gear - the gear won't matter.
Gear can compensate to an extent, but it's not a fix-it-all.
Where the P2W stuff and all the rest come into play...is that you're going to lose to the equally skilled player. You're definitely going to lose to the more skilled player. You might even lose the slightly less skilled player. You've still got the chance to beat the guy you're more skilled than...
Even if you break out some major cheese on somebody and get them - if they're a better pilot, they're going to adapt - see what you're doing and frag you the next time.
Take a racecar driver and your average daily commuter. Take them to a curvy track. Give the racer a Toyota Yaris. Give the commuter a F12berlinetta. The racer's going to win. The commuter's going to have get another job or two to pay off the burning husk he made of a beautiful car.
There's a world of difference between just having gear - and - knowing how to use that gear.
Again, no doubt - if you take two racers and give one a Yaris - the guy in the Ferrari will win... gear will matter. Obviously in the case of our racer and commuter...not in the least.
Most folks will fall in between those two. Many folks can accept where they sit on the skill hierarchy - they realize just who better gear will give them an edge over and who it won't give them an edge over...
...some folks simply cannot accept this, though.
Even though...
...it's irrefutable.