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I'd like some advice please...
bortjinx
Member Posts: 397
Hi guys,
I'm fairly new to PvP, and have only taken part in a couple of matches. In those matches, I did a considerable amount of damage compared to the other players (approx 500k in a 15 kill match and around 750k in a 20 kill match), but I don't have any idea if that is good or not because I've only played against a very small group of people. I think it's good, but for all I know I'm really just a mediocre player who happens to have been playing against some really bad players. No idea, which is why I'm looking for some perspective.
So, part one of my post is asking, in an average 15 kill match, how much damage do you usually come out with?
Second, I'd also like someone who knows about PvP to look over my build and tell me if any improvements can be made. I'm not really looking for console advice - I like my current crazy console setup, more abilities and other gear.
I'm flying the Defiant-R (from way back when you still got free ships without Vet rewards upon hitting VA). My setup looks like this:
Fore: 3x Antiproton Mk12 DHCs (Pre-S7 Borg gear); 1x Mk12 Quantum Torpedo Launcher (Pre-S7 Borg gear)
Aft: 3x Antiproton Mk12 Turrets (again, Pre-S7 Borg gear)
Engine/Deflector/Shield: All Mk 11 Borg
Consoles:
Subspace Jumper,
Assimilated Console,
Impulse Capacitance Cell,
Cloak,
Isometric Charge,
Point Defense System,
Automated Defense Turret,
Graviton Pulse (Beam?),
Theta Radiation Field.
Skills:
Tactical:
TT1&2, T:HY2, T:Sp3, C:RF3, C:SV2, AP:D1, AP:B1.
Engineering:
ET1, RSP1
Science:
ST1, PH1
Note, the numbers on the skills may not be entrely correct, but I'm writing this at work, and trying to do it from memory.
Thanks for any input guys
I'm fairly new to PvP, and have only taken part in a couple of matches. In those matches, I did a considerable amount of damage compared to the other players (approx 500k in a 15 kill match and around 750k in a 20 kill match), but I don't have any idea if that is good or not because I've only played against a very small group of people. I think it's good, but for all I know I'm really just a mediocre player who happens to have been playing against some really bad players. No idea, which is why I'm looking for some perspective.
So, part one of my post is asking, in an average 15 kill match, how much damage do you usually come out with?
Second, I'd also like someone who knows about PvP to look over my build and tell me if any improvements can be made. I'm not really looking for console advice - I like my current crazy console setup, more abilities and other gear.
I'm flying the Defiant-R (from way back when you still got free ships without Vet rewards upon hitting VA). My setup looks like this:
Fore: 3x Antiproton Mk12 DHCs (Pre-S7 Borg gear); 1x Mk12 Quantum Torpedo Launcher (Pre-S7 Borg gear)
Aft: 3x Antiproton Mk12 Turrets (again, Pre-S7 Borg gear)
Engine/Deflector/Shield: All Mk 11 Borg
Consoles:
Subspace Jumper,
Assimilated Console,
Impulse Capacitance Cell,
Cloak,
Isometric Charge,
Point Defense System,
Automated Defense Turret,
Graviton Pulse (Beam?),
Theta Radiation Field.
Skills:
Tactical:
TT1&2, T:HY2, T:Sp3, C:RF3, C:SV2, AP:D1, AP:B1.
Engineering:
ET1, RSP1
Science:
ST1, PH1
Note, the numbers on the skills may not be entrely correct, but I'm writing this at work, and trying to do it from memory.
Thanks for any input guys
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by bortjinx on
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please read this, and then come back to us.
have fun kill bad guys
May Hilbert guide you.
Thanks for the link.
I've been to look at it, and have a question... Why TSS? I know PvP is a team activity, but as an escort captain, shouldn't I be concentrating on blowing up the enemy and keeping myself alive?
Also, the BOff layout is different. My ship has an extra Tactical ensign slot, and no ensign Engineering slot. How would you change your BOff abilities to reflect this?
Read my siglink for even more useful info.
Jesus... Wanna try putting some actual consoles in there maybe?
TT1 CRF1 APO1 CRF3
TT1 THY2 APO1
THY1
EPTS1 EPTS2
HE1 TSS2
But seriously sort out those consoles. You're both hurting your build, and ****ing off everybody you play against.
They are "actual" consoles, and with all of them, my ship is great fun to fly. I might be losing out on a little survivability and damage with them, but all the little tricks they offer me makes up for that I think.
As for ****ing off the people I am flying against, why not? The more attention they are forced to spend on keeping track of me and what I am doing means that less attention is on my teammates. Besides, annoyed people make mistakes.
Hilbert's Guide page is an interesting read, and I think between his page and your BOff skills you have listed, I can see a couple of small changes I'm going to make to my build.
While the criticisms about my build are appreciated, what I really want here is perspective. I'm getting that I have an unusual build, but rather than just say something like 'Get some new consoles' (and I assume you mean stack damage consoles, resists, and shield strength), tell me, how does your ship perform in PvP? In an average 15-kill match, how much damage do you do? (Yes, I know damage isn't everything, but DPS is my primary purpose as an Escort, so I think it applies over healing here).
Also, why does no-one use RSP in their builds? I find that combined with TT, it can fully recharge my shields in a matter of seconds. That should be more effective than EPtS, surely?
"Try not to think in terms of a glass cannon" lol. That was some advice I was offered after my first few matches, and from that I have picked up ET and ST to try to improve my survivability. I didn't think you could use TSS on yourself?
Having a quick look at your siglink, it appears most of the posts on you have linked on there are about cruisers, and only the Beginner's Guide to Escorts and maybe a few of the threads shown on the listof contents link may apply (but I'll have a proper look at those later, after work when I have a chance togo through them properly).
Yeah but the thing is that knowing about different ship types can impact your understanding of the game in general. It can help you as an Escort when you're attacking. The more familiar you are with different builds the better you can plan your attack.
Ah, I see. This makes sense now. Thanks
This is true. Currently, I'm trying for a 'One Nuke Blasts All' approach, but you may well be onto something here. Perhaps tonight I will go study your links after all...
Umm, a 20-kill match? I take it that this was a Cap-n-Hold? Also, what damage parser were you using? Different parsers on different settings can give very different damage levels. Given your console setup, you're losing out on something like a 100% damage boost from tactical consoles alone, so these damage figures are decidedly odd.
If you were going by the scorelist at the end, how long did the battles last? Our total damage per match varies significantly depending on how long the match lasted.
We can't really compare notes until we know we're using the same measuring sticks. Bear in mind, up to a certain point, low healing = low damage, as you will end up dying more often, and thus losing out on damage time. So, how often did you die during the match?
Yes, TSS can definitely be used on yourself.
This tends to be a bit difficult, as ET and ST will trigger global cooldown on TT when used. The lack of shield redistribution during the cooldown may thus lead to trouble for you. HE1 and EPtS1 are good replacements, HE1 for hull resist, HoT and clearing hazards, and EPtS1 for the power and res boost.
The matches lasted around 10-15 mins, and I was using the scorecard that is displayed at the end of the match to get my numbers. Oh, and not a Cap/Hold match. Straight deathmatch, or whatever they are called in STO. The ones where you pick a map, the number of kills, and the team to get that many kills first wins.
Edit: When you say 'odd' do you mean odd in a good way (as in higher damage than I should have) or in a bad way (as in I've badly nerfed myself)?
There was one guy from my first match, who came out ever so slightly ahead of me on damage. He was using AP Mk 11s with a full rack of damage consoles. I think he got something like 5k more damage than me over the course of the battle.
Ummm, don't remember off the top of my head. I died more in the 15-kill match than the 20-kill though. We lost the 15-kill, and I think I died 6 or 7 times. The 20-kill we won, and I think I died 4 or 5 times. I'll have a look a the screenshots I have at home and find out when I finish work.
Edit: How's about when I finish work, I'll post the links to the scorecards so you guys can see them for yourself?
This is good to know. I didn't realise that before. It seems a bit silly though.
"Quick, Number One. Transfer shield strength."
"Onto which target Captain?"
"Ourself."
"So, Captain, you want us to transfer strength from our shields to... our shields?"
"Yes, Number One. Make it so."
The global cooldown is the only problem I have with having 2xTT, 1xET, and 1xST. From the comments about people's builds made earlier in the thread, there are a few options for rearrangig powers to get around this. HE1 is a power I've been looking at for a while now, looking for a way to pick that up instead of one of my others.
Ok first how much dmg does an average escort do in 15 kill arena? I would say there is no good answer because it depends. If your enemies don't really use any healing and just die instantly you can't do much dmg. If it's a long game your dmg can be pretty high. In the end you should run a combat log parser if you are truly interested in a meaningful number.
Ok a few tipps from me:
First Boffs:
Tac: Beta might be a bad choice for pvp. The problem is, it is cleared by tac team and everyone has tac team. If you find players that do not at least have one copy of tac team you could probably kill them without any buffs anyway. If you time ir right and fight an enemy with only one TT it might still be useful, or combined with a subnuc but generally I would go with delta or omega.
You could try something like:
TSP1
TT1 Delta1 THY3
TT1 CSV1 Omega1 CRF3
Eng:
You are right, most people will recommend you EPtS. With 2 copies you can keep it running permanently. That gives you some resist, and also shield power which gives you shield resist too. RSP is an emergency button that can save you after a subnuc, but it will help for a short time only. If you don't have any other resists you are going to die. That RSP gives you are a few sec but without EPtS you will watch your respawn button most of time against a skilled opponent.
Now the problem is you only have 2 eng slots. So either take EPtS1 and 2 or get yourself a doff for the recharge reduction. In that case you could run EPtS1 and RSP1. I am not sure how high the proc chance on the doff was, you might have to look how many you need in what quality to make this work.
Sci:
ST1 might be nice against some debuffs but it shares a CD with TT. And you already have two copies of TT. TSS on the other hand can be used on yourself and an ally. It also provides healing and resistance.
Gear:
Your engine and deflector are fine but i would change the shield. The proc is good and the TB as well but the shield is really bad. The cap is pretty low so a good escort mith rip through your shields ald kill you before you realize what is happening. I would go for the MACO shield.
Consoles:
If you truly want to be good at pvp you should consider some changes.
1. You need dmg consoles in your tac slots. They do make a huge difference. Put 4 antiproton consoles in there, your dmg will be laughable otherwise.
2. You might want to consider a field generator. It gives you more shield cap and allows you more time to react against an enemy alpha.
3. Turn rate can be nice but other than in a duel you won't need it. You can consider it though. If you want special consoles take a look at the lobi one. It gives turn rate and crit.
4. Resists. A neutronium can really help to survive if you have problems- It can work without one but consider it if you die too fast.
5. The automated defense turret is this little thing that randomly shoots stuff pretty close to you? And does not really do any dmg? It might be nice against the mine spam but in general I would say it is just a wasted consoles slot.
6. Some special consoles can be buffed with skills. If I am not mistaken Isometric charge is boosted with particle generators. That means if you really want this to be useful you need to invest some skill points and you might want to consider boosting it with part gen consoles.
In the end it is up to you. If you have fun with your build... go ahead. But consider that it is far from optimized and will probably get torn apart against a good player. We all play this game to have fun but I would advice you to experiment a bit, try some other stuff and combine your toys with some normal consoles.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Hehe, you're quite right there. But let's not forget reconfiguring your ship weapons for an extra bit of damage.
There we go. Now we know how I'm getting unusual results from PvP without damage consoles... It's my Super Tac Teams!!!
Just keep it simple and run two EPTS. If you want to use RSP use a Patrol Escort or a Jem'Hadar attack ship.
First of all, thanks for the post
I keep meaning to look into installing the combat log parser, but always forget to.
The build I have currently is also the one I use for PvE. That is why I have AP:B. Well, that and I didn't know TT removed it. I had already been considering dropping AP: D for AP:O to free up my PH slot, but Imay have to look at replacing AP:B now instead.
I always looked at EPtS and didn't think much of the regen buff it gives, but here everyone is saying it is all but essential for a decent PvE build. Knowing now that it also offers shield resists makes it sound a lot more worthwhile.
Nice explanation on why people prefer it over RSP too. Thanks
Knowing TSS works on myself as well as others makes it look infinitely better than ST, simply because of the global cooldown on my transporter room. This is one change I am certainly making.
I have the MACO Mk10 shield which I used to use with the other pieces of the Borg set, but when S7 started, I wanted to see if they had made using the complete Borg set worthwhile. I'm guessing the answer to that is still 'No'.
Thanks for the advice here. A lot better than simply 'Jesus, do something about your consoles', lol.
The ADT was the deluxe edition console. I find it works pretty well at picking off incoming heavy plasma torps and the like. That is why I still have it on my ship.
Some of my other consoles are pretty new - picked them up from the Exchange - so I've only really got them fitted to try them out currently. I used to also have the Grappler fitted to my ship (from the NX ship in the C-Store), but swapped that out for the Subspace Jumper.
This is why I am here. My current build is great fun, but in the few PvP matches I have played, I've been coming out with some very respectable damage compared to the other people in the match. Maybe not quite as much survivability as I'd like, lol, but lots of damage. Only really having PvP'ed a few times against a very small selection of players, I have no idea how effective my build actually is. As you said, for a more accurate idea of how I am doing, I should really install the combat log parser.
You guys have already offered me a great deal of advice for changing some BOff abilities round, so thanks. I'll come back to this thread later when I'm at home and have the scorecard screenshot links.
Yeah, it seems like it's pretty high, if we're going by the standard 15-minute match. I got a little confused, as I've only seen Arenas go up to 15 kills. I'd sure like to see those scorecards!
In-game, the explanation is that they're transferring power from the deflector fields to shields. Yeah, they're apparently two different things. IIRC, the deflector field is what stops stuff punching holes through your hull at significant fractions of c/warp speed, while shields protect you from weapons fire. Screwy, I know.
Good. Higher than expected damage is always good. Well, when I'm the one dishing it out at least, lol. They might have been Arena matches. I'm not too sure tbh. Like I said, it was two teams, whichever got the highest kill count won. I do know that you can change the number of kills needed for victory though.
I'll post the links to the scorecards when I get home. I don't have them here
Hmm, that makes about as much sense as Super Tac Team, lol.
"Our aft shields are failing, we need to distribute our shield power!"
"But... The console to do that is way over there... can't you just beam me there?"
"No, transporter needs to recharge."
"Well... guess we die then."
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Actually, I think beaming people around the ship is a good idea. I just think it is silly that it takes time to clear the transporter room before you can let your next team in. I mean, you beam all of your scientists to where they need to go. Really, how long does it take to get your Tactical staff in position before you can beam them out too?
If I was that transporter chief, I'd have races.
"Science Team away. Come on people move! First person ready on the pad I'll buy a drink for after the fight."
Match 1
Match 2
In case you hadn't guessed from my forum name, I'm Jinx.
Dieing 5x w/o a single repair is gonna annoy your PuGmates.
To your original question I've had as low as under 200k to over 1 million in arena using the same set up. There's too many variables based on who you're teamed w/and who you're fighting to look for a set amount.
For example your 1st volley could strip away a target's shield while a BO crit from an ally takes the target out before your 2nd volley lands. In this case you've been productive, but the damage isn't counted.
Also, I've had lolz transphasics builds w/a sci b'rel which do a lot of damage, but don't kill often. It's decent pressure damage at times, but really it's not as valuable as the scoreboard indicates.
Imo, the only scoreboard chasing you should do is who won and did you have fun while doing it.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
They didn't really mind my lack of repairs - it was my fleet introducing me to PvP. They suggested I picked up a few self heals, which I did, but am not happy with and will be changing based on feedback in this thread.
I thought the damage counts would include shield damage, but if not, I see what you mean about damage being circumstantial. Thanks for explaining that part to me
INTERNATIONALPVP.TYPEFRAG.COM:62245
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
It's impossible to put a number on 'how much damage do you do in a 15 kill arena' because exactly 0 arenas are the same as another arena.
And yes, by sort your consoles I mean put all damage type consoles of whatever your cannon damage type is. sci and eng are less important, but you are genuinely doing it wrong as an escort without all damage consoles in tac.
Nobody uses rsp without a spare slot to put it in because it's a ridiculously bad opportunity cost power, especially with no resist powers at all elsewhere in your build. I would only slot rsp in my build if there was literally nothing else to put there.
To put numbers on it. RSP is 10 seconds immunity and a 0 resist heal every minute and a half or 2 mins (I can't remember) in addition to being a subnuke magnet, as opposed to epts, which is 20-30% resists on your shileds for 30 seconds and has 100% uptime if you have 2 copies.
A ship can have a low damage output according to the parser and the scorecard, but you could have a high kill count.
That means you either just helped someone else kill a target and didn't do that much damage, or you killed them faster than they could be healed.
If you have a high scorecard damage or high overall damage from the parser, but your kill count on the scorecard is low, it means you dished out a lot of damage, but lacked the power to finish off your target.
Damage on the scorecard is determined by damage to the hull, not shields. The parser will tell you the damage to the shields and hull. But, the parser doesn't keep track of the number of kills you had (not from the one I use, anyways).
So, look at them both and determine your effectiveness.
For instance, there is a certain infamous PvPer that likes to brag about how much damage he does in the Arenas with his Sci ship, but if you look at his kill count it is usually very low. Most likely, he was using DEM to increase his hull damage, but he did not have the capability to actually kill very many targets.
If by 'common decency' and 'self-respect' you mean 'Stick only to builds and tactics approved by the self-appointed PvP Masters' then, no, why should I? PvP is the competitive side to STO. Fun, yes, but competitive. So why not take advantage of what my ship can do and make my opponent's job that little bit harder?
"Genuinely doing it wrong"? Rofl... It's a GAME!!! How do you do it 'genuinely wrong' if what you are doing is successful? And I'd say contributing to 19 out of 20 kills with over 700k damage dealt is pretty successful. Maybe I didn't get the killing blow, maybe I did. That isn't the point. PvP arenas are a team effort. I'll grant you that maybe my build could have been 'more right', but I think 'genuinely wrong' is a little harsh just because I don't follow standard conventions.
As it is, following some of the advice in this thread, I have swapped out some of my skills (including RSP), and have been trying to identify which of my 'genuinely wrong' consoles I can remove to replace with damage ones. Three of them don't get used too often, or don't contribute that much to my play style, so I think I can lose the Isometric Charge, the Theta Radiation Vents, and the Graviton Pulse consoles and still be considered an annoyance by my enemies. Will 3 damage bonus consoles allieviate your feelings of me doing it 'genuinely wrong'? I will admit, I am kinda curious how much of a boost these damage consoles will give me.
My new skill setup is as follows:
Tactical:
2x TT1, TS1, 2xAP:O1, 1xCRF3, 1xCSV2, 1xTHY2
Engineering:
EPtS1&2
Science:
EH1, TSS2
I've not had a chance to try it out in PvP yet, but it does seem to make my ship nigh on immortal in PvE. The only trouble I had surviving in PvE was being swamped by a fleet of ships in the No Win Scenario, and being targeted by the gate in ISE. Even the gate probably wouldn't have been too much of a problem had I been paying attention, but I don't yet have the keybinds set up that was suggested in a post linked to earlier on in this thread since I wanted to get a feel for my new build instead of just automating a load of it.
Thanks Paxottoman
If I can find time in those hours, I'll pop on to visit you, but I am in the UK, and am usually at work during those hours.