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Subsystem Repair VS Viral Matrix Math with Pax
paxottoman
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Alright, so we ran some tests in accordance with what Borticus said about Subsystem repair.
A) We found that human passive +20 to subsystem trait does not work.
Viral Matrix indeed does in fact countered by points in Sub system repair.
C) Completed a test with the following results:
Six points aka 84 points into subsystem repair gave a 15 second clearance from a Viral Matrix with 84 points and no additional modifiers to the Viral matrix.
Without points into Subsystem repair, the Viral lasted for a total of 22 seconds.
We calculated the diminishing returns on subsystem repair in the event it was at 99 points.
Find "S" subsystem repair with 99 points in it.
Z={84x2)-69
Z=(168)-69
Z=99
Y=99/168
Y=0.59
Y=59%
X=17.75seconds/30seconds
X=0.59
X=59%
15seconds off is 84 points
S=15+(15-17.25)
S=15-2.25
S=12.25 off Viral with 84 points in it.
S=12.25 seconds to clear Viral with 6 points. A total of 9.75 or just say 10 seconds off the effects of Viral Matrix in terms of comparing to someone that does not have points in subsystem repair.
We also found out that the viral doff that procs, adds an additional 2 seconds to the viral matrix effect. We did not have time to test the effects of subsystem repair, but I would guess it scales the same way minus the decompiler effect.
All tests were conducted with 100% crew.
We concluded that in order to add more of a dynamic feel to it, and without making viral over powered as it appears on these findings we suggest the repairing the human passive "+20 to Subsystem Repair." It is also not recommended to spec into sub system repair if you're running an escort in a team setting as your crew is dead majority of the time and you will not benefit from the points.
Relying on your team mates for engineering team is ideal, but may not be enough with the new spread to other ships doffs.
We ran a test on that as well, but it was more of an organic flow. As in we did not stop and check things as we did with the subsystem repair. However, during the match which was frapsed, vs 3 science ships using the new doffs green quality, I was viraled for 40% of the match duration. Our team ran 2 copies of Engineering team, with their respective doffs to reduce cool downs.
I'm interested in everyone's conclusion in TRH's findings.
Thanks
A) We found that human passive +20 to subsystem trait does not work.
Viral Matrix indeed does in fact countered by points in Sub system repair.C) Completed a test with the following results:
Six points aka 84 points into subsystem repair gave a 15 second clearance from a Viral Matrix with 84 points and no additional modifiers to the Viral matrix.
Without points into Subsystem repair, the Viral lasted for a total of 22 seconds.
We calculated the diminishing returns on subsystem repair in the event it was at 99 points.
Find "S" subsystem repair with 99 points in it.
Z={84x2)-69
Z=(168)-69
Z=99
Y=99/168
Y=0.59
Y=59%
X=17.75seconds/30seconds
X=0.59
X=59%
15seconds off is 84 points
S=15+(15-17.25)
S=15-2.25
S=12.25 off Viral with 84 points in it.
S=12.25 seconds to clear Viral with 6 points. A total of 9.75 or just say 10 seconds off the effects of Viral Matrix in terms of comparing to someone that does not have points in subsystem repair.
We also found out that the viral doff that procs, adds an additional 2 seconds to the viral matrix effect. We did not have time to test the effects of subsystem repair, but I would guess it scales the same way minus the decompiler effect.
All tests were conducted with 100% crew.
We concluded that in order to add more of a dynamic feel to it, and without making viral over powered as it appears on these findings we suggest the repairing the human passive "+20 to Subsystem Repair." It is also not recommended to spec into sub system repair if you're running an escort in a team setting as your crew is dead majority of the time and you will not benefit from the points.
Relying on your team mates for engineering team is ideal, but may not be enough with the new spread to other ships doffs.
We ran a test on that as well, but it was more of an organic flow. As in we did not stop and check things as we did with the subsystem repair. However, during the match which was frapsed, vs 3 science ships using the new doffs green quality, I was viraled for 40% of the match duration. Our team ran 2 copies of Engineering team, with their respective doffs to reduce cool downs.
I'm interested in everyone's conclusion in TRH's findings.
Thanks
Turkish RP Heroes
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by paxottoman on
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vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
i have found it really helps cut down the phaser proc times, just like shimmer said.
gotta give a heads up to my man Justin@broken1981 (i hope i got that right) for the heads up on that great find.
have fun kill bad guys
was there ever any doubt? i wont believe for a second this does anything until its actually listed as a space trait
so your nurse doff works? wtf mine never works. but yeah this is the reason on my escourt ide put 6 points into sub rep. the nurse ( when woriking) is awesome.
hell, i even mentioned you.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
www.divisionhispana.com
yes i know that part and ty capt. but the day after it came out there was a patch and she stoped regening my crew. do you mean to tell me she regens your crew? i dont see mine in combat going back up. when it did work for me i loved this doff. maybe its not insta regen anymore and just regens slowly? ill have to look. but it used to be the regen was so fast that in 2 secs i was at 75% crew with a blue.
I think I originally got the idea from you a long while back Broken, so I do owe you my thanks.
I've noticed that the DOff has been buggy lately too, it started about the same time a few weeks ago when I just straight up couldn't equip my blue onto Active Space. Like... the DOff was there, and it was definitely (?) the space nurse, but she just would not budge. My first guess is that they've accidentally flagged it the wrong way around with one of the latest stealth patches, so the regen procs outside of combat rather than inside.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
and what i can say, is that it does have an impact. both is tac team effectiveness, and cutting down phaser proc duration.
lower crew = slower subsys repair. the mechanic i believe is off, depending on the patch.
someone get some testing on this. so im sure im not drunk talking out my TRIBBLE.
only if the big red jedi were here......
hilbert?
pax?
someone get on it!
have fun kill bad guys
I have a bad habit of taking threads wildly off topic.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Well thats why when the space doff first came out i had to pm capt as fast as i could. i told him about it because it would keep tt up. i then asked him if it would help verse phaser procs. we did hit the ques (not together) and i was telling him how i was getting max 2 sec pahser procs. this was not the norm since they lasted around 5-7 secs. drunk posted pics of this actually. but this 1 doff no 1 really cares much about has saved my ship a number of times when phaser procs was at its worse. just sad people knock it as an rp doff. i used to use 2 tt doffs a blue space nurse and 2 sdo when people thought its much better to have 3 sdo. and i did test 3 sdo with 2 tt doffs. truth is the nurse with 2 tt and 2 sdo kepted me alive longer. aslo this nurse makes it so skilling sub rep isent wasted points. its the main reason in pug vm never bothered me. and i see why now. ty bort for the heads up on a messed up tool tip. its the reason i wondered why when i respeced with 0 points into sub rep vm was lasting longer. never knew why till bort said it.
My question is, how does that really help? There are severe limitations as to what someone can spec against. I don't think it's possible for someone in an escort/raptor/BoP to spec against all possible methods of attack, not without seriously gimping their tactical abilities (i.e., the reason the ship classes exist).
Unless you can predict ahead of time what someone is going to be running, and can afford the ridiculous 500 zen per respec. . .this information doesn't help that much. It's still gonna be considered a low-priority system over, say, power-boosting or shield/hull recovery skills.
I think they intentionally disabled it because the klingons have no such space trait... all they get are letheans. If they did not intentionally disable it because of that, then fix it, but also give it to klingon boffs as well (+20 subsystem repair)
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
sub rep has never been usless. its just that less crew makes the points in it seem usless. when phaser procs was op to hell i had to spec it. but during a match thoes points were wasted. then space nurse came along and made sub rep awesome. now i can say for a fact that turk heroes are corect when they say sub rep reduces the duration of vm. i noticed that when i had no points vm lasted longer. i thought it got a duration buff lol. but when bort cleared up the tool tip error and i put 6 into sub rep vm just isent as bad as it was. but again space nurse is broke, its not doing crew regen like it should. so if your deciding on specing sub rep and have like 50-100 crew just know thoes points are usless 6 min into a match.
http://www.stoacademy.com/tools/skillplanner/index.php?build=mybuildhere_0
i have a spec to guard against everything but ss. if you want points into sencors take 3 out of hull, so u only have 3 in theat 3 in hull 3 in sencors. but putting points into sencors in my opion is wasted.
So in talking about the "feel" of things - I really don't "feel" like it's working on the KDF side the same way it's working on the Fed side. I could be totally off there, like I said - it's just the way it "feels" like it is not working the same.
EFF. BFM, & Nurse vs. EFF, BFM, & Medic... w/ or w/o SubRep - just does not "feel" the same.
Most of my "experience" with that on different ships on both sides admittedly comes from PvE (I've got a reroll addiction, man - it's bad) - but the passive hull healing on the Fed side is noticeable compared to the passive hull healing on the KDF side... because the Fed crew's almost always near 100% while the KDF crew's almost never above 75% (usually closer to 40-60%).
But it's just a "feeling" - could be something else going on that I'm totally missing...
edit: Course, I could have just looked at the crew recovery rate on the ship while in combat to see that it does not appear to be working...meh.
edit2: I'm an idiot - sort of. I forgot that I run better quality Nurses than Medics. Medics are damn expensive compared to Nurses.
edit3: Still though - the Fed's showing 6.8% recovery in combat while the KDF's showing 10.1% recovery. The Fed rarely if ever drops below 80%+ (outside of Theta...meh) while the KDF's almost never above 20-40%. I rarely have to do a hull heal on my Fed while I'm always topping off the KDF. In extended fights it makes a difference - whether I use that heal for me or somebody else...and just outright survivability.
i do know some things work better for me, and those are the things i suggest to people that i think may have a similar playstyle to mine.
so much of this game, and most team based mmo's is positioning and timing. and i think much of the player base just needs coaching on that topic alone.
have fun kill bad guys
Such a shame that one console completely nuters this..
But who in their right mind uses Vent Theta Radiation.............It's not like it's such a vastly used console.. right? :P
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
again.....space nurse when she does work. thats another reason i loved that doff when it would work. ide get thetat all day on my ship and bam!!!!! 2 sec later 75% crew. really hope cryptic fixes the space nurse so she will regen in comabt again.
So I tested this (medic and nurse) and it may or may not work as you think.
Out of combat on my bug, I have a 50%/min crew recovery rate
In combat on my bug, I have a 5%/min crew recovery rate (because all crew is at battlestations)
When the very rare nurse or medic kicks in when my alive crew drops below 75%, that simply means that I get 15%/min crew recovery rate.
So, if you are in an escort that has a 50 man crew and you are down zero crew while still getting pounded by kinetic damage, your crew, while recovering more quickly, is still going to hover around zero because of the BFI cooldown that will prevent those who are recovering from being lost again.
IMO, it is better to equip a biofunction monitor, the jem shield, or emergency forcefield console rather than rely on this DOFF (if you even care at all)
Unfortunately, the crew death does not scale appropriately to the total crew compliment even though subsystem repair is based on the percentage of able crew. What I mean is.. I believe the kinetic damage and it's affect on able crew is global. So it appears that if a borg plasma torpedo takes out 50 crew on a cruiser, it will also take out 50 crew on a defiant, which means that the defiant will not have any able crew.
I think this latter point needs adjustment.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
200 crew - you lose 50.
100 crew - you lose 50.
50 crew - you lose 25.
edit: It's a "feel" thing - but it definitely "feels" like it doesn't work this way. The Mirror Assault has 1000 crew and the Mirror Vor'cha has 1500 crew. I have the same EFF on each of them, but man - the Vor'cha bleeds crew like crazy. For the testing I did below, I had to work to get below 75% on the Assault - I was below 75% in a blink of the eye on the Vor'cha. I mentioned it earlier in the thread (when I was running different ships), and I'm still wondering if anybody's noticed something the same...
As for the DOFFs themselves, the description needs work.
Base recovery out of combat is 50%. That's what the white DOFF shows. However, if you're sporting a blue BFM - you're out of combat is 67.5%. The white DOFF will show 67.5%.
The green DOFF is double - 100%. It will show 135% if you've got a blue BFM.
Your in combat recover is 10% of your out of combat recovery. In my case, that 67.5% becomes 6.8%.
I tested it with two guys (a Fed with a green Nurse and a KDF with a white Medic). The DOFF description numbers do not change for combat. 67.5% and 135% stay the same.
In combat - the number on the character sheet shows as:
@100%:
Green - 6.8%
White - 6.8%
<75%:
Green - 13.5%
White - 10.1%
So yeah, that fits in with what you said about the Purple being 3x.
White 1.5x
Green 2.0x
Blue 2.5x
Purple 3.0x
The description for the Nurse/Medic really should just say that. Because when the white one says 67.5% - it's wrong, both in saying that it's 67.5% and even if one were to take 10% of that (in combat) at 6.8%...because it's not that. It's 1.5x whatever it would be (5% or 6.8% with the blue BFM). The green on the other hand, is just wrong in that it's not 135% - it's 13.5%. Its description is not as broken as the white one...meh.
It's like looking at the blue one. It's +150%. That +150% is an additional 150% of what you've got - not +150%. That's simple enough. That's the 2.5x, right? If you've got 50% OOC - 5% IC - then you should be looking at 12.5% IC when below 75%. The purple on is +200% - so 300% of 5%...15%.
+50%, +100%, +150%, +200%
1.5x, 2.0x, 2.5x, 3.0x
All good, right?
Slot a blue BFM (+35%).
+67.5%, +135%, +202.5%, +270%
Yeah... those numbers? Yeah... no.
10% them, and you'd think you'd have:
6.8%, 13.5%, 20%, 27%
It's not though - not in the least.
10.1%, 13.5%, 16.9%, 20% (w/o blue BFM - 7.5%, 10%, 12.5%, 15%).
^--- those are the numbers.
It's trippy the white shows no bonus, the green is fine, the blue shows the purple, and the purple shows a +300%/4.0x bonus when you have the blue BFM slotted. Mind boggling...meh.
Heh, what's also mind boggling is the recent run on KDF Medics... those things skyrocketed in price on the exchange after this thread was posted. As I post this:
Nurse
- White: 46k
- Green: 56k
- Blue: 200k
- Purple: 5.25m
Medic
- White: 65k
- Green: n/a now (but as I started to type this post, there was one for 300k)
- Blue: 1.2m
- Purple: 9.95m
Still though, the reason I started to look at the Nurse/Medic was to free up a console slot - replacing the BFM with a DOFF...given the change to the SDO/BFI DOFF and wanting to slot the new Romulan console.
It's basically a case of 6.8% vs. 7.5%/10%/12.5%/15% <75%. It definitely seemed worth it before the prices went to Hell.
so that's what I mean by it is not scaling correctly.
I know for a fact that my able crew has gone below 50% with an STF borg plasma weapon. I've seen my able crew go down to 30% or even less if I don't have BFI up... that's just not right with VM in the game these days and trying to repair my subsystems. ET, most of the time, is not viable on an escort unless it is a higher end escort or hybrid.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I used to lean toward current, but I'm wondering if it is total.
It might explain certain things - ie, the 50 crew situation. If it's -50% (-25), then it would be wham bam - 0 crew. As opposed to 50-25=25-13=12-6=6-3=3-2=1-1=0.
Then again, that it works one way for Fed and one for KDF - might explain what I'm seeing. Who knows, eh?
Still, if it's based on total - using a Rapid Trans 8s recharge with a 50% to -20 or -20% against the two ships I'm currently dorking around with... (minus any consoles/resist):
MAC - RT proc (-20 crew/8s) & 7 crew recovery/8s
MVB - RT proc (-20 crew/8s) & 10 crew recovery/8s
That's in combat above 75% crew.
To hit 75% (given a 100% proc instead of 50%), it should take the following lengths of time:
MAC - 152-160 seconds
MVB - 296-304 seconds
That's if it is always based on total crew (both the proc (fudged to 100%) and the recovery).
Add in a Nurse/Medic (again, basing this on the total as opposed to current):
White
MAC - 10 crew/8s
MVB - 15 crew/8s
Green
MAC - 13 crew/8s
MVB - 20 crew/8s
Blue
MAC - 17 crew/8s
MVB - 25 crew/8s
Purple
MAC - 20 crew/8s
MVB - 30 crew/8s
So if it is based on total and not current, the MAC would require a Purple Nurse to hang around 75% while the MVB would require a Blue Medic to hang around 75%.
If you've got 50 crew in this case, where you're losing 10 crew/8s and the best you can get from a Nurse/Medic is 1 crew/8s... well, it doesn't make much sense to run a Nurse/Medic.
Yes, it's not a 100% proc rate - but then again, it's not a case that somebody's going to be just firing a single RT at you, eh?
It takes 1000 crew vs. 100% proc to have the Purple balance out against that -20 to keep you around 75% crew.
1500 requires a Blue, 2000 requires a Green, 3000 requires a White.
Again, that's if it works off of total. Crew Recovery makes sense to work off of total. The loss though, should work off of current - no? You can't lose more crew than you have. That being the case, it should take even longer to reach to that 75% and in turn the value of the Nurse/Medic should increase in a "real" combat situation.
Still though, in the end - I'm not sure any of it's actually working - and I'm pretty sure that it's even more broken going from Fed to KDF.
My Fed has a Green Nurse. My KDF has a White Medic. Both have a blue BFM and both have a blue EFF. The White Medic on the Mirror Vor'cha should give me a better crew recovery rate in combat versus the Green Nurse on the Mirror Assault.
But...
I farm Archer in Tau Dewa. I run it five times for the daily. I farm it for gear to sell while waiting on CDs for fleet/STF.
The MAC runs great. The MVB bleeds crew like crazy.
It's not just a case of one run and saying something's up. I'm running Archer a Hell of a lot - enough for that clear pattern to appear. It was the same when I was doing it in an Advanced Escort and a Negh'Var. Which is mind boggling, because the White Medic should have worked awesome with the 2500 crew of the Negh'Var versus the Green Nurse with only 150 crew on the Advanced Escort.
That was not the case. The Negh'Var bled crew even faster than the Mirror Vor'cha does. The Advanced Escort stayed above 75% better than the Mirror Assault does.
None of this makes any sense to me. Maybe I'm being an idiot, maybe I'm massively overlooking something or doing something massively wrong in the calculations. Maybe one of the previous devs hated the KDF and secretly coded something to increase the proc rate against KDF vessels...lol - I don't know. Only know what I've experienced...
...and I'm not sure any of it's working.
Crew Loss Proc Rate? Don't think it's working.
Base Crew Recovery? Don't think it's working.
Nurse/Medic? Don't think it's working.
Fed & KDF the same? Don't think it's working.
Imagine if you were in a Carrier of all things.. The Vor'quv, Recluse, and Atrox I think all have like 5k Crew?
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Hull Repair Rate - my active Fed & my active KDF
Both have 104 Hull Repair skill. Neither has Techie. Neither has any passives boosting it.
On stripped ships (only a Mk I Impulse Engine equipped).
Fed
Light Cruiser: 10947 Hull, 200 Crew, 119.4% Hull Repair
Light Science: 10947 Hull, 80 Crew, 119.4% Hull Repair
Escort: 16421 Hull, 50 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Heavy Escort: 23948 Hull, 100 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Tactical Escort: 31218 Hull, 50 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Advanced Escort: 40301 Hull, 150 Crew, 99.5% Hull Repair
Mirror Assault: 50701 Hull, 1000 Crew, 143.3% Hull Repair
KDF
Norgh: 19158 Hull, 75 Crew, 119.4% Hull Repair
K't'inga: 28737 Hull, 800 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Vor'cha: 37461 Hull, 1500 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Negh'Var: 50701 Hull, 2500 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Mirror Vor'cha: 46801 Hull, 1500 Crew, 131.3% Hull Repair
Neither Hull nor total Crew affect the Hull Repair rate that. It's based off of a percentage of crew remaining. 100% crew = 100% hull repair rate, etc, etc, etc.
Different ship classes have a different modifier to that hull repair rate. This isn't something that I've seen on STOwiki - nor is it anything I've really seen discussed on the forums (though it's likely, people discuss all sorts of things).
So two things come to mind with this...
First - is there some ship modifier (hidden) for the subsystem repair as well?
Second - is about the value of crew recovery in relationship to ship type and the effectiveness of a Nurse/Medic. Given the previous crew loss proc information depending on crew size and given the ship modifiers to hull repair - if you're in an Escort with 99.5% hull repair (100% crew) and sporting that small starting crew size... meh, what's the point, eh? Compare that to a Cruiser with the 143.3% and a larger starting crew. Then compare that to a Battle Cruiser, where it might have a larger crew - but it's got a smaller modifier from that crew.
Depending on how that loss proc and crew recovery actually work (and depending on if there's a hidden subsystem repair modifier) - well, there's certain ships where it doesn't make sense to use a Nurse/Medic...right?
I'm trying to think what could explain the following I mentioned earlier:
The Advanced Escort had the best chance of keeping the most crew and needing the least amount of hull heals - even better than the Mirror Assault.
The Mirror Vor'cha with the same modifier but fewer crew - bleeds crew less than the Negh'var.
Defense, eh? More misses on the Advanced Escort than the MAC? More misses on the MVB than the Negh?
Heh, maybe if I were a skilled pilot and the testing wasn't done in PvE where I pretty much sit there facing the target while watching TV...lol. Still, it might explain it... trying to be honest here, and that's a viable possibility to explain those.
Still, is there a hidden subsystem repair modifier based on ship type like there's a hull repair modifier? How exactly does the loss proc and crew recovery work? With things like that answered, it should be easy enough for anybody to look at the ship they're flying to see whether they should bother with a Nurse/Medic...and whether they should shell out for the better quality or spend that money elsewhere first - picking up the better DOFF as money allows.