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PVP: Play your class, by horizon
thishorizon
Member Posts: 1,158
heyo pvpr's!
with the new league going on, and some fire under that belly, and boot camp getting started... i wanted to reach out to the readers, not so much the posters.... and get some info flowing.....
there are such great threads if you just search for them. mav's cruiser build threads, kai's sci threads..... naz's threads... they all give great info, but i really want to start off with the basics here.
in pvp, rule #1, stay alive.
1 person dies, and you will see the rest follow quickly, because of pure numbers game. to defeat this everyone should start off their builds running 2 copies of epts, and 2 tac teams. or max that out however you can based on layout. this is raw defense folks, its the base. you can pull away from this once you have learned the system, but until then, run it.
rule #2, play your class.
scis....your main weapon is your subnuke/scan combo. it needs to be full aux. find a way to work it in. you need your front 45 on a target to get the nuke in, so... play in an agile ship.
tacs, its all about apa for you, and how you can roll in the go down fighting... 4 dual heavy cannons and rapid fire get the job done the best right now, start off there before you go to torps or beam overloads. you need timing and situational awareness to pull those off right now. get your piloting and distance run times nailed using 4 DHC before moving forward with anything else.
engies. im going to say this softly (bieber and era hold your tongue) damage is not your concern. keeping your escorts and scis alive is. you need extends, and you need team heals. ectends, plus he1, tss2, goes a long way in a fight.... get good with those before thinking about damage.
rule #3, look at your team's buff bars
whether in voice comm or just pugging it, if you look at the 3 paragraphs above, a team dynamic should be clear to you. spike damage on the guy being subnuked, heal the guy being killed. what you should do in any ship for any situation, is be aware of what your teammates are running, and when.
the rest, is piloting, and situational awareness my friends.
so, get out there, and have fun killing bad guys.
but start with the basics....... play your role in battle.
with the new league going on, and some fire under that belly, and boot camp getting started... i wanted to reach out to the readers, not so much the posters.... and get some info flowing.....
there are such great threads if you just search for them. mav's cruiser build threads, kai's sci threads..... naz's threads... they all give great info, but i really want to start off with the basics here.
in pvp, rule #1, stay alive.
1 person dies, and you will see the rest follow quickly, because of pure numbers game. to defeat this everyone should start off their builds running 2 copies of epts, and 2 tac teams. or max that out however you can based on layout. this is raw defense folks, its the base. you can pull away from this once you have learned the system, but until then, run it.
rule #2, play your class.
scis....your main weapon is your subnuke/scan combo. it needs to be full aux. find a way to work it in. you need your front 45 on a target to get the nuke in, so... play in an agile ship.
tacs, its all about apa for you, and how you can roll in the go down fighting... 4 dual heavy cannons and rapid fire get the job done the best right now, start off there before you go to torps or beam overloads. you need timing and situational awareness to pull those off right now. get your piloting and distance run times nailed using 4 DHC before moving forward with anything else.
engies. im going to say this softly (bieber and era hold your tongue) damage is not your concern. keeping your escorts and scis alive is. you need extends, and you need team heals. ectends, plus he1, tss2, goes a long way in a fight.... get good with those before thinking about damage.
rule #3, look at your team's buff bars
whether in voice comm or just pugging it, if you look at the 3 paragraphs above, a team dynamic should be clear to you. spike damage on the guy being subnuked, heal the guy being killed. what you should do in any ship for any situation, is be aware of what your teammates are running, and when.
the rest, is piloting, and situational awareness my friends.
so, get out there, and have fun killing bad guys.
but start with the basics....... play your role in battle.
Post edited by thishorizon on
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Just kiddin, nice thread, indeed, when u try to follow your teammates buffs/debuffs u can save him, e.g. if u are sci and your team mate is nuked, send him ST etc. etc..
Tactical
Self
Attack Pattern Alpha: +Dmg, +CrtH, +CrtD, +Turn
Go Down Fighting: +Dmg (based on hull)
Target
Fire on My Mark: -DR, -Stealth
Team
Tactical Fleet: +Dmg, +Def, +Acc
Tactical Initiative: Reduce Recharge Tac BOFFs
Engineer
Self
Miracle Worker: +Hull Heal, +Shield Heal, +Subsystem Repair
Nadion Inversion: +Power Drain Resist
Rotate Shield Frequency: +Shield Regen, +Shield DR
Self/Ally
EPS Power Transfer: +Power, +PTR
Team
Engineering Fleet: +DR, +Hull Repair Skill, +Warp Core Potential Skill
Science
AoE Enemy
Sensor Scan: -DR, -Stealth
AoE Friendly
Scattering Field: +Energy DR
Other
Photonic Fleet: Summon Holographic Pets
Self
Sensor Scan: +StealthSight
Target
Subnucleonic Beam: Buff Strip, -Recharge Speed
Team
Science Fleet: +Shield DR, +Shield Emitters Skill, +Power Insulators Skill
Those five abilities are all that separate each of the Careers in Space. It's important to look at those, in any discussion about a player playing their class (imho).
Tactical is obvious. It's a damage career/class. Whether they're buffing their own damage, the teams damage, or making the target less resistant to damage - they're about damage. Their damage potential in any ship is going to be higher than the other two careers/classes whether in PvE or PvP.
I'm going to skip Engineer for a moment to look at Science. Science is a bag of tricks, eh? Buffs and Debuffs - they're weakening the enemy and strengthening the team. It's the middle career/class between the offensive and the defensive. With SNB's 90 degree arc, they're going to want to be in a ship where they can get the target in that arc. They bring some goodies for the team whether in PvE or PvP.
Engineer. Engineer. Engineer. Engineer's broken in my opinion. There's no other way to state it (politely) without saying that they're broken. We have Tac buffing the offense. We have Sci buffing offense/defense. We have Eng buffing defense. BUT - we don't. We have Eng buffing their own defense, but they're not buffing the team defense.
The Engineer comes off looking like a tank (in Space - on Ground, it's a different story entirely). With no need for a tank in PvP, slap them in a cruiser/Recluse and you've got your healer. But you're no longer really playing the class - you're playing the boat now. The Engineer's just "tankier" in that boat than a Tac or a Sci would be.
You could put a Tac in a healing boat. They'll be able to heal just as well as the Eng. They'll do more damage than the Eng while they're at it as well. The Tac in a healboat would bring more to the team than an Eng in a healboat would... except the Tac's going to be squishier than the Eng. So that healboat will pop. AND - the Tac loses potential.
You could put a Sci in a healing boat. They'll be able to heal just as well as the Eng. They'll do more damage than the Eng while they're at it as well. The Sci in a healboat would bring more to the team than an Eng in a healboat would... except the Sci's going to be squishier than the Eng. So that healboat will pop. AND - the Sci loses potential.
There's some play between putting a Tac in a Sciboat or a Sci in a Tacboat. That play does not exist for putting the Eng in a Sciboat or a Tacboat (outside of the Sciboats/Specials that sport the Eng BOFF layouts).
So given the nature of Eng in space, what Tac or Sci would lose (as well as being squishier while doing it) - the Eng is the healer (because there's no need for a tank).
Cryptic needs to fix Engineers. They should be more like they are on the ground while in space. Much like the Sci brings a mix of offensive and defensive support; the Eng should bring a mix of defensive and offensive support (or even defensive support).
The forums is the place to address this issue with Cryptic. Sending them feedback is the way to address the issues with Engineers in Space...
...making your team suffer because you want to ignore the way Cryptic has botched the Engineer and play your way...
...well, that fits in with the broken and selfish nature of Cryptic's Engineers in Space I guess.
So definitely make sure to offer feedback every chance you get to Cryptic about how Engineers are broken - but do it on the forums - or do it via feedback to customer service - etc, etc, etc.
If you're going to play an Engineer with the way it currently is, then play the Engineer as it currently is - you're going to be the "tanky healer" - you're not going to be the debuffer nor the damage dealer. Unlike Tac or Sci, you're going to be incomplete without the right ship.
It sucks... but that's STO (as it currently stands).
thanks man.
have fun kill bad guys
May as well post your build, dude.
I flew an Engi/Escort for a loong time before the Skill change..
Honestly some where in the Skill change, something changed for Engineers.
Originally they could deal damage and absorb damage quite well. Making them a good fit for any ship. Escorts was nice because they could help the Escort Survive longer and their powers could help bring out some damage potential.
But all that changed when they tweeked the skill trees. Now Tacs Deal Superior Damage (As they should) Scis do their Debuff/All hail the all mighty Sub Nuc..
Engi..something changed.. I don't know if maybe there isn't enough skill interaction with their abilities. If perhaps their powers really were the way they are now, but we never noticed it before because perhaps the other classes weren't performing as well as they should have. Or if Engi really does just need to be given some form of a buff.
The skill tree change did bring about improvements and ease of managing and improving defensive Boff skills while the Miracle worker isn't quite as useful as it used to be (Remember when it used to almost heal you to full all the time if you had those skills maxed?)
As a suggestion, perhaps the following should be done for Engineers to improve their capabilites while in Space. Note some of the suggestions may be slightly Biased in appearance, but they are not ment to be.
1: Give EPS a small innate universal buff for weapon Damage, Shield resistance, Speed, and Stealth sight for each Power level that goes above 100. If it would go above 125 then perhaps double said bonus. (For example if it's just +5 at 100, if it gives more then 125 it would go to +10) This would also give reasons to run Powers in conjunction with it, like Energy Siphon, Aux to Battery, or other less used Emergency Power to Bridge officer powers. This would also aid other team mates and give a new way to provide buffs for other players based on what their power settings are at when EPS is applied.
2: Increase Miracle Worker's heal by another 15%, or Perhaps make the Shield heal based on Shield power level and the hull heal based on Aux Power level and have it Scale based on those making it useful to use Miracle Worker while under EPS for example.
3: Perhaps allow Engineering Fleet to scale it's resistance buff along side points spent in either Hull Plating, Armor Reinforcements, or Starship Threat control. The more in which ever skills would be linked, the higher the resistance bonus could get, but still keeping Team play in mind of course.. We don't want to introduce 5 man Engi teams using Rolling Engineering Fleets and removing their shields to prove they don't need them of course.
Those are just off the top of my head. And yet more suggestions that come from me when I'm tired. Really should probably stop coming around here so late.. lol.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Excellent points.
I would also like to interject that the classic Engineering ship, the cruiser, has no innate advantages to anything besides Rule #1: "Protect Thyself".
You can call them healboats, but the only characteristic they have that permits them to be a healboat is the fact that they have more and higher level Engineering bridge stations. ALL of a cruiser's ability to protect other ships comes ONLY from BO's.
And the fact is that there aren't that many Engineering powers that are useful on allies. You can "double up" with I, II, and III versions but you still have shared cooldown to deal with.
So to sum it up, you have a "selfish" class -- the Engineer, in a "selfish" ship -- the Cruiser. I'm not saying they aren't useful in PvP and team PvE, but they aren't really optimized for the role they're being forced into.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
While I'm harping on this, I'd like to make the observation that the Steamrunner comes with a "Team Fortress" ability that sounds like it's made to order for protecting other ships... and they gave it to an Escort.
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Oh no a good heal cruiser is not selfish. For a true healer you want a combination of eng and sci, which you can get with an oddy and maybe some fleet cruiser. Or maybe a carrier like the recluse.
Engineering has 2 truly amazing heals, aux to struct and extend. Also you get ET which need to clear some stuff like VM and it's a good hull heal.
But let's look at a heal oddy which has actually the perfect setup:
TT1 FAW2 or Delta1
EPtS1 Extend1 ET3 AtS3
EptS1
ST1 TSS2 TSS3
HE1 HE2
Now thats just an example. You can move some stuff around but it is pretty powerful healer. The only ability in carries that is selfish would be EPtS and everybody should have that.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Which version of the Oddy has that bridge officer configuration again? Not sure if you're referring to the "plain" version or one of the C-Store optimized versions. I'd like to try a setup like that on my vanilla oddys -- I've never run with a pure healer build.
I did not mean to imply that all cruisers are "selfish" or that cruiser captains are selfish, only that most cruiser configurations don't seem to be optimized for healing/protecting/defending and that the Engineering powers are mostly self-buffing.
I'm a long, long way away from getting a Recluse, if ever
Link: How to PM - Twitter @STOMod_Bluegeek
Same, except when I get in a pug match with all cruisers as teammates :eek: This is why I prefer to use it when I can team with friends that I know can deal some damage. I'd rather not to take 5 minutes to kill a single ship.
@DevolvedOne
I hear you, man. I've been in matches where I have to go full weapons power just to give a chance to my team to kill anything in my healer. It's worse when the enemy team are nothing but heal cruisers, it's just snoozefest city.
Then I'll just keep rotating target subs and pelt everyone with quantums or chronitons.
Now for me, that's having fun and keeping my boys alive.
The forced into thing, is kind of key, imo. It's what it's come down to - in a sense.
Force a Tac into a healing role - you're losing out on something.
Force a Sci into a healing role - you're losing out on something.
Force an Eng into a healing role - well, there's not really anything to lose out on.
The Eng is the last kid picked for the team sort of thing that's given the task nobody else wants. The Eng is not the first kid picked for the team because they are so awesome at doing what they do.
Even in regard to the Eng being less squishy than the Tac or the Sci - blow those CDs and they are even squishier than a Tac or a Sci because of the length of those CDs in comparison.
You run multiple healboats or throw in crosshealing - and - it starts to look like you're losing out by having that Eng there.
If an Eng specs threat, drops themselves in a cruiser, and they take on the role of a "Tank" pretty well. The combination of those abilities with a pocket healer... and - you've got a "Tank". But I've failed to see where anybody has ever said that STO needs that kind of "Tank"...
On the Ground, they're not "selfish" in the least. They're a great team support career. It's a shame that's not the case in Space. It's a shame they tried to pull this "Tank" thing out of leftfield. It's a shame...
I just wish they'd stop giving insanely strong layouts to boats that don't belong in Starfleet
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Engineer BOFFs:
AtS, ES, ET
Science BOFFs:
HE, ST, TSS
Engineer has EFleet - bonus to Hull Repair skill.
Science has SFleet - bonus to Shield Emitter skill.
EBOFFs can attempt to reduce incoming damage with AB, BP, & EWP.
SBOFFs can attempt to reduce incoming damage with ES, GW, JS, PS, SS, TB, TBR, TR, & VM.
Engineer can attempt to reduce incoming damage with...er...EFleet.
Science can attempt to reduce incoming damage with PF, SNB, SF, SFleet, & SS (DOFF'd).
Lends itself to either a Sci in a Sci or an Eng in a Sci... or either in a Recluse, eh?
Wait.. that might actually entail abit of work....We need to suggest an easy fix, right? Move some Boff powers to the Engineering side maybe?
Nah that won't work either..
What can I say..I know there's alot of work that probobly needs to be done, but I have no good suggestion personally on where it should start, and where it should end right now.. Because I'm far from a Numbers addict or a Math wiz when it comes to STO or other games. I leave that stuff up to the betters of my peers.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
Couple such a skill with knowledge of how the game works and you will find your game improve.
Its something I myself am wishy-washy at it but others whom have it on point are among the best in PvP.
R.I.P
read the last few lines of my opening post old friend!
you know where my head is at, situational awareness. its even more key for tac escorts.
have fun kill bad guys
yeah man, wish i had that recluse on my engie. i dont play him much, but that layout is sick.
i like my engie in an intrepid mostly. ablative for o.snap #1....and miracle for o.snap #2
and sometime during o.snap #3 someone else better be healing my TRIBBLE because we are getting a whole lot less defensive if i die.
have fun kill bad guys
I missed that bit. Evidently reading comprehension is second to SI. :P
If PvP was a religion and the top PvP'ers in STO priests there of it, then I would most likely be one of those little brown robed acolytes that pitches out the occassional "yes line" after the priests say something all religiousy.
This Horizon, " Play to your roles. Be not egotistical and go your own path. "
Accolytes, " Everyone likes a shared heal " (except in that really cool gregarian chant way)
R.I.P
The definition fits becuase characters in STO are divided by classes of expertise.
Horizon starting this thread is not inflamatory or trolling and it is filling up with lots of good advice.
My advice is read the Key binding for Dummies thread and learn to use it even if you do not rely on keybinds as they can help the average player inch upwards towards above average and once that happens self confidence rises and more fun happens.
Target calling is cruicial as well though I have always sucked at it. Here is a simple key bind that can help. It will call target on your current target I believe.
T "team Target: >> $target <<"
R.I.P