Does anyone know the SB DOff project requirements in S7?

blackjackwidow

Much has been said about the unfairness of the new dilithium sink into General Recruitment and Reassign Underperforming Personnel, so I don't want to start another thread about that. However, I think the costs in common duty officers for the Embassy is probably a tell as to how the "conversion" to all common DOff requirements in the Starbase Projects is going to go.

The patch notes said most of the uncommon or better DOff requirements will change to common: "All Green, Blue and Purple quality requirements on Duty Officers were reduced to White quality requirements. These changes in quality and relative value haves led to many requirements increasing in number of items required, but not in overall cost.

So, what IS the "overall cost" of 200 Rare non-civilian duty officers in common non-civilian duty officers? How about the equivalent in commons for 1 Very Rare Department-Specific or Race-Specific Duty Officer.

I think that making it cost to get commons is certainly directly related to "reducing" the requirements to all common duty officers. And oh btw, it now costs 10,000 common non-civilian officers instead of 100 rares.

Please someone tell me I'm wrong. Anyone know what the conversion rate is at any of the tiers? Or will this be a surprise tomorrow?


This sounds like the fleet DOffs to me all over again. First "We gave you an opportunity to use fleet marks to get the DOffs you need for starbase projects" Then "There's a bug and they can't be used for fleet projects anymore" Then "We fixed the the starbase DOffs, but had to take away all dilithium rewards for dismissing all DOffs in order to let you do that. But hey, you asked to be able to submit Fleet Doffs, and we gave you what you asked for."

borticuscryptic

"Overall cost" refers to a mostly-internal metric we use to measure the relative value of different items within the Holdings system. Every Project is assigned a target "overall cost" and the Design team determines what requirements to place on the Project in order to meet that cost.

For the recent changes, the value given to a White Doff in these calculations was increased to about 166% its previous value. Green Doff relative value went up to about 133% of its previous. But at the same time, we shifted most quality requirements down to White. Since a Blue or a Purple was previously (and still is) valued higher than a White, the number of inputs required had to increase in order to meet the targeted "Overall cost" for the projects that were altered.

Does that clarify at all? Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.

pwecanbiteme

A roundabout way of saying, the numbers are big? Big enough to cause your small fleet to fold, coupled with crippling dilithium and mark generation.

kalani

Are we still gonna have projects that require us to buy say 7500 shield generators or will it use something we can buy less of to spend the same amount. I don't mind dropping the EC on the project but I don't like taking 20 min to drop the EC on the project and buying 7500 of anything 50 at a time is just ridiculous and it still we be even when we can buy them 100 at a time. I'm referring to one of the T3 military projects btw.

blackjackwidow

borticuscryptic wrote: »

"Overall cost" refers to a mostly-internal metric we use to measure the relative value of different items within the Holdings system. Every Project is assigned a target "overall cost" and the Design team determines what requirements to place on the Project in order to meet that cost.

For the recent changes, the value given to a White Doff in these calculations was increased to about 166% its previous value. Green Doff relative value went up to about 133% of its previous. But at the same time, we shifted most quality requirements down to White. Since a Blue or a Purple was previously (and still is) valued higher than a White, the number of inputs required had to increase in order to meet the targeted "Overall cost" for the projects that were altered.

Does that clarify at all? Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.

Clarifies what is meant by cost, but still doesn't really say what it is. So white's are now 166% of their previous value; ok, I get that. So how many whites=1 green, or 1 blue, or 1 purple, etc.

Although Purples may be valued higher in your metrics, even if you only change the project requirements to the direct substitution, (let's say 10 whites to 1 green kind of value), the result will make white DOffs that much more desirable, expensive, and increase the likelihood of paying dilithium for general recruitment cadres and zen for doff packs. So... I see the logic from the business standpoint, but I don't think many players have really thought about what this could mean.

Can you share any or all of the following?

1. The metric itself in terms of DOff's values (10 whites = 1, 1 green = 10 blue, 1 blue = 10 purple?)
2. For the starbase project requiring 100 blue non-civilian DOffs today, how many common DOffs will it be tomorrow?
3. For the starbase project requiring 15 purple civilian DOffs today, how many common DOffs will it be tomorrow?

So, brew another pot of coffee and get back to me when you've finished. I can't do percentages without my first pot of coffee - and I'm just finishing mine.

nicha0

This post is a bit confusing, the patch notes said all SB projects were changed to white quality Doffs, borticus is saying most projects where changed to white. So which ones still have higher quality Doff reqs?

The change to white Doffs really only made sense for the daily missions and not so much the upgrades.

f8explorer

borticuscryptic wrote: »

"Overall cost" refers to a mostly-internal metric we use to measure the relative value of different items within the Holdings system. Every Project is assigned a target "overall cost" and the Design team determines what requirements to place on the Project in order to meet that cost.

For the recent changes, the value given to a White Doff in these calculations was increased to about 166% its previous value. Green Doff relative value went up to about 133% of its previous. But at the same time, we shifted most quality requirements down to White. Since a Blue or a Purple was previously (and still is) valued higher than a White, the number of inputs required had to increase in order to meet the targeted "Overall cost" for the projects that were altered.

Does that clarify at all? Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.

Basically ... Small to mid-sized fleets remain frakked.

wesleycrasher

More importantly, will doff generation ever be equalized by department, or will they still be generated based on specialization, TRIBBLE over Tactical, Engineering, and Medical doffs?

nicha0

They are generated by Doff power actually, which is why security officer rate is so abysmal and the dozen warfare specialists just never stop coming.

blackjackwidow

genhauk wrote: »

Basically ... Small to mid-sized fleets remain frakked.

I think any size fleets will be ... overwhelmed ... with the cost in common DOffs. Agree with another poster regarding the need to change the requirements. Personally, I can fill all the purple requirements myself if need be. Anyone in a small-to-mid-sized fleet could as well, if they are willing to do DOff missions for a bit. There are plenty of missions that reward purple duty officers.

I believe we are going to see some massive amounts of required common duty officers, especially for those just hitting the Tier III projects. That's why I am trying to find out - do I spend dilithium now and break down all my purples for the next 20 hours or so, before it's going to cost me ridiculous amounts of dilithium to 'recruit' duty officers (side note - doesn't it seem odd captains should have to pay dilithium to Starfleet in order to get unknown and untested new graduates?).

Or, as has been hinted, will some of those projects retain the purple quality duty officer requirements. I don't know which would be worse or make me unhappiest - breaking down all my extra purples to find out that they were needed, or turning in loads to convert to purple just to find out that I need to break them down (at a loss of 2 DOffs at a time).

If one upgrading one of the Tier 1 Embassy projects requires 400 common civilians, and a Tier III SB project requires 120 uncommon (green) - then how many common non-civilians will we need for that project after tomorrow? What about the 100 rare (blue) needed to upgrade each arm to Tier IV?

I shudder to think. Everyone is (rightly) concerned about the Omega conversion, I think this change PLUS charging dilithium to GET the commons, on top of the dilithium needed for the projects, is going to hit harder for - those in fleets, anyway.

bareel

borticuscryptic wrote: »

"Overall cost" refers to a mostly-internal metric we use to measure the relative value of different items within the Holdings system. Every Project is assigned a target "overall cost" and the Design team determines what requirements to place on the Project in order to meet that cost.

For the recent changes, the value given to a White Doff in these calculations was increased to about 166% its previous value. Green Doff relative value went up to about 133% of its previous. But at the same time, we shifted most quality requirements down to White. Since a Blue or a Purple was previously (and still is) valued higher than a White, the number of inputs required had to increase in order to meet the targeted "Overall cost" for the projects that were altered.

Does that clarify at all? Sorry, haven't had my coffee yet.

So if a project required 120 doffs valued at 100 points that would be 12000 worth of doffs required and then divide that by 166 and you gets 72 white doffs should be the new requirement for said project.

As for green req dropping to white the projects that took both did a 2:1 ratio of white to greens mostly so I would assume that will stay the same.

TLDR Tier 3 project 72/73 doffs Tier 2 project half that. If I understood him properly.

f8explorer

blackjackwidow wrote: »

I think any size fleets will be ... overwhelmed ... with the cost in common DOffs. Agree with another poster regarding the need to change the requirements. Personally, I can fill all the purple requirements myself if need be. Anyone in a small-to-mid-sized fleet could as well, if they are willing to do DOff missions for a bit. There are plenty of missions that reward purple duty officers.

I believe we are going to see some massive amounts of required common duty officers, especially for those just hitting the Tier III projects.

--snip--

I think one of the biggest problems (and I'll point back to Bort's earlier detailed post) ... I think sometimes the live so much in equations and formulas that they forget the human equations of the burdens being placed on already taxed and stretched players.

ADDITIONAL: I know the devs are nose down trying to get it all done and throw their hearts into this, but I worry still about tunnel vision.

maarkean

genhauk wrote: »

I think one of the biggest problems (and I'll point back to Bort's earlier detailed post) ... I think sometimes the live so much in equations and formulas that they forget the human equations of the burdens being placed on already taxed and stretched players.

ADDITIONAL: I know the devs are nose down trying to get it all done and throw their hearts into this, but I worry still about tunnel vision.

I agree. I like math and numbers. But in the end, this is a game. If it feels like work, you failed as a game designer, no matter if the requirements are mathematically fair.

pantsmaster916

maarkean wrote: »

I agree. I like math and numbers. But in the end, this is a game. If it feels like work, you failed as a game designer, no matter if the requirements are mathematically fair.

There's no such thing as "mathematically fair." If you fail on the math, your economy potentially erupts into uncontrolled chaos, filled with crazy exploits, incorrect values and earnings loopholes.

pwecanbiteme

pantsmaster916 wrote: »

There's no such thing as "mathematically fair." If you fail on the math, your economy potentially erupts into uncontrolled chaos, filled with crazy exploits, incorrect values and earnings loopholes.

One could be absolutely correct with the math (although I strongly disagree this is the case here, math isn't one of Cryptic's strong points), but still fail the human equation... in which case you then have to deal with the very real math of player loss.

mellestadsto

So, why not just make it so you can still submit greens/blues/purples to a job, but just make them worth 5/10/20 common doffs or whatever?

borticuscryptic

To answer a few earlier questions, and expound on what I said in an earlier reply:

Players can use the amount of Fleet Credits they receive in return for donating an item as a judgement of its "value" to the system.

Before the changes referenced in this thread, White Dept-specific Duty Officers would return 150 Fleet Credits per Doff that was donated.

After these changes, they now give 250 Fleet Credits per Doff.

This is where we derive the 166% figure I originally quoted. (250/150=166%)

This same figure is a relative measurement to what we use internally to determine a Project's targeted cost.

So if a project previously required 1000 White Dept-Specific Duty Officers, it now only requires 600. (1000*150)/250=600

For reference, here are the Fleet Credit rewards previously granted in return for Duty Officer contributions (with updated values in parentheses, if they are still in use):

White-Unrestricted = 75 (250)
White-Dept = 150 (300)
White-Spec = 300
Green-Dept = 300
Green-Spec = 600
Blue-Dept = 500
Blue-Spec = 1000
Purple-Dept = 1000
Purple-Spec = 2000

Using these figures, you should be able to quickly figure out how many Duty Officers are now required for a particular project.

For example:
A project that previously required 15 Purple Astrometrics (Spec) Duty Officers (T5 Transwarp Facility upgrade), will now require x# of White Science Dept Officers instead. To determine the amount:

(15*2000) = 30000/300 = 100 Duty Officers

Sometimes the math doesn't work out to be so pretty, and in those cases we've either rounded the new Doff values or altered the Dilithium cost (since Duty Officers are given a Dilithium value in the Holdings system, for determining project cost) to make the final values work out to a nice round figure.

borticuscryptic

mellestadsto wrote: »

So, why not just make it so you can still submit greens/blues/purples to a job, but just make them worth 5/10/20 common doffs or whatever?

Our current Holdings system does not allow for this sort of "or" statements in terms of relative inputs & outputs. We could allow you to input Green+ quality doffs into the system, but we cannot modify the output (Fleet Credit / Progress) based on what was donated, so regardless of what you donated you'd always get the same result as if you'd input a White.

It may be something we can do in the future, but not at this time.

blackjackwidow

borticuscryptic wrote: »

<snipped>
For example:
A project that previously required 15 Purple Astrometrics (Spec) Duty Officers (T5 Transwarp Facility upgrade), will now require x# of White Science Dept Officers instead. To determine the amount:

(15*2000) = 30000/300 = 100 Duty Officers

Sometimes the math doesn't work out to be so pretty, and in those cases we've either rounded the new Doff values or altered the Dilithium cost (since Duty Officers are given a Dilithium value in the Holdings system, for determining project cost) to make the final values work out to a nice round figure.

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the answer, let's see if I can figure this out.

Upgrade Starbase to Tier IV previously required 100 (non-spec) blue duty officers.
(200*500) = 100,000/75 = 1333 common duty officers (probably rounded to 1350)

Upgrade Shipyard to Tier IV previously required 100 blue Tac or Sec
(100*500) = 50,000/150 = 333 common tac or sec duty officers (350-ish)

Not as bad as I thought, still a lot of commons to hold/come up with.

So - are ALL projects going to common duty officers, or are some still going to require purple?

maxxina

blackjackwidow wrote: »

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for the answer, let's see if I can figure this out.

Upgrade Starbase to Tier IV previously required 100 (non-spec) blue duty officers.
(200*500) = 100,000/75 = 1333 common duty officers (probably rounded to 1350)

Upgrade Shipyard to Tier IV previously required 100 blue Tac or Sec
(100*500) = 50,000/150 = 333 common tac or sec duty officers (350-ish)

Not as bad as I thought, still a lot of commons to hold/come up with.

So - are ALL projects going to common duty officers, or are some still going to require purple?

You got numbers wrong . its 250 for first. 75 used to. it will be 250 or 300 .)

pwecanbiteme

blackjackwidow wrote: »

Not as bad as I thought, still a lot of commons to hold/come up with.

Given that you really can't do anything with a white doff other than throw them at a holding (dismissal already being nerfed to the ground and grinding up is too expensive to be viable), they should be really cheap on the AH in a few weeks (even cheaper if a lot of small/med guilds just quit the holding scheme altogether).

diogene0

borticuscryptic wrote: »

Our current Holdings system does not allow for this sort of "or" statements in terms of relative inputs & outputs. We could allow you to input Green+ quality doffs into the system, but we cannot modify the output (Fleet Credit / Progress) based on what was donated, so regardless of what you donated you'd always get the same result as if you'd input a White.

It may be something we can do in the future, but not at this time.

Even the same output would be appreciated, we need some high quality doff sinks to make the doff system worth playing it on the long term. Currently, with such low prices on the exchange it's not. Massive amounts of purple doffs get on the game and just never go away, an when you have 350-400 purple doffs - and you need months to get that - you can craft engines and shields to get poorer rewards than those you get from any episode.

leviathan99

If it was a huge priority, you probably could have DOff grinder assignments that allow you to turn a green of a particular profession into a white bundle of the same profession.

Hypothetically:

Greens produce 3 whites OF THE SAME PROFESSION. Blues produce 15. Purples produce 50.

For the rarer profession DOffs, make it something like: 2, 10, and 25. But a guaranteed same profession as the input DOFF from a Project Downgrinder.

Effectively, more efficient downgrinding. This could even help justify the addition of the up grinding costs to players since downgrinding would provide guaranteed results, making high quality BOffs more valuable given the higher cost of obtaining one. Which means those DOffs people get from paying high dilithium upgrinding costs would at least have TONS of value as downgrinding fodder.

mellestadsto

stoleviathan99 wrote: »

If it was a huge priority, you probably could have DOff grinder assignments that allow you to turn a green of a particular profession into a white bundle of the same profession.

Hypothetically:

Greens produce 3 whites OF THE SAME PROFESSION. Blues produce 15. Purples produce 50.

For the rarer profession DOffs, make it something like: 2, 10, and 25. But a guaranteed same profession as the input DOFF from a Project Downgrinder.

Effectively, more efficient downgrinding. This could even help justify the addition of the up grinding costs to players since downgrinding would provide guaranteed results, making high quality BOffs more valuable given the higher cost of obtaining one. Which means those DOffs people get from paying high dilithium upgrinding costs would at least have TONS of value as downgrinding fodder.

Ooo, assign them to the academy as instructors!