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Fairness in PvP
scurry5
Member Posts: 1,554 Arc User
This is just something that came up on my mind once, and I thought I would like to see people's opinions on the topic.
I have heard people say that they enjoy PvP as long as it's fair. So, what do you count as fair in PvP?
For example, things like siphon builds and Danube spams are generally considered unfair from what I've seen on the forums. However, people seem to be much more divided on things like AMS or Graviton Pulse, whereas TBR in its current state, tric mine crits from cloaked B'Rels and Isometric Charge are generally okay.
So, what's your criteria for considering something fair/unfair? Having a legitimate counter that can be used solo/by a team? Not going above a certain amount of damage that seems ridiculous?
And what's your response to someone who is doing something unfair in your opinion? Do you ignore the person? Say something in chat? Scold him? Make him a priority target? Or even (God forbid) warp out?
And finally, given common agreement on something being unfair, what role can the devs play in mitigating it?
Just one last thing, though. I would much rather this thread not turn into a flame war or anything and get closed, so please bear in mind that no one person may necessarily be absolutely right. This thread is simply to solicit others' opinions on the subject, and for rational discussion.
I have heard people say that they enjoy PvP as long as it's fair. So, what do you count as fair in PvP?
For example, things like siphon builds and Danube spams are generally considered unfair from what I've seen on the forums. However, people seem to be much more divided on things like AMS or Graviton Pulse, whereas TBR in its current state, tric mine crits from cloaked B'Rels and Isometric Charge are generally okay.
So, what's your criteria for considering something fair/unfair? Having a legitimate counter that can be used solo/by a team? Not going above a certain amount of damage that seems ridiculous?
And what's your response to someone who is doing something unfair in your opinion? Do you ignore the person? Say something in chat? Scold him? Make him a priority target? Or even (God forbid) warp out?
And finally, given common agreement on something being unfair, what role can the devs play in mitigating it?
Just one last thing, though. I would much rather this thread not turn into a flame war or anything and get closed, so please bear in mind that no one person may necessarily be absolutely right. This thread is simply to solicit others' opinions on the subject, and for rational discussion.
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Now, were the PvP about territory control - attacking an enemy base, defending your base - etc, etc, etc - something where the outcome of the fight actually mattered... then it's no longer about pew pew phun! In that case, TRIBBLE the fair fight. It's about winning - as long as one is not cheating, exploiting bugs, etc, etc, etc.
Two different animals...
...the pew pew phun from fair fights - is pretty much missing in STO at this point.
That said I personally try to play as cleanly and as fairly as possible. I think most of us know when we're using unpleasant or "cheesy" loadouts, those people likely don't need reminding.
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[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
[Combat (Self)] You lose 6549 (7572) Cold from the torment of the underworld.
In-game handle @Janetza
The faster people learns that pvp is not about fairness the better.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
Cryptic doesn't understand how balance in this game works, but that doesn't mean that we have to intentionally make the game worse by using all the stupid consoles.
I agree. Sadly though, the majority of players in the q's seem all to willing to defend their right to use broken mechanics.
Things tend to change in relation to how many in a given group are using something. AMS is okay if 1/5 have it and use it, but anymore then 3 and it makes PVP a chore.
Such things would not be needed of course if Cryptic would pull their thumbs out and stop releasing things that personify cheese/unfair/OP abilities, weapons and ships. Season 7's handful that includes the Vesta and rep system abilities have actually made me NOT look forward to a STO season. That's never happened before. Again, very sad.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Feds complained about BoP's being OP because of their superior maneuverability and versatile BoFF layout. Then Feds got a Defiant and the complaints stopped.
Klinks complained about AMS, then they got it and now hardly ever comes up anymore.
Feds complained about Klink Carrier spam, then they got the Atrox.
To me, Siphon Drones are the annoyance equivelant of the Danubes yet both sides still complain about em. Sounds pretty fair to me. Both are getting reworked in S7.
Then there are some things that are only available to either the lucky or the elite like the Jem Bug and SNB Doffs.
Overall, PvP was at it's most enjoyable prior to C-store consoles, Doffs, 2 and 3-piece set bonuses. The inclusion of these things just makes it too easy for a pre-made to exploit their collective effectiveness.
Now while you do get advantages with lockbox/zen stuff or simply with good weapons from the exchange you can still be successful in pvp with the free stuff. But I suppose that is mainly because the skill lvl of many random players is very low.
Now back to the topic. For a single ship I would consider the use of nearly everything in this game ok unless it is truly broken. Like drain carriers or abusing tbr now with 4 part gen consoles and a tac captain. I can live with sc sci spamming tbr at the moment and it will be fixed soon, so it is not that bad.
The problem begins when teams combine stuff. Like 5 ams. I can live with one ams on the enemy team but if they truly begin to spam it is really annoying.
I can live with someone running 1 sub nuc doff but if you start stacking them with your whole team...
My point is mainly advantages with consoles and p2w ships are ok. In the queue you will never really have a fair fight due to different skill lvls and also group setups. There is nothing in the matchmaking to ensure each group as a healer, or an escort. You get groups of 5 escorts without heal and 5 cruiser who can't kill anything. Also I don't think a raptor with ams is worse than a bug. But people rather accept ships than consoles, I don't know why.
For myself I try to use only stuff which I am ok fighting against. So for example while I do use a leech (since it does not stack anymore and I don't care if an enemy shoots me with it) but I do not use ams (because I really hate getting amsed). For premade fights I remove all p2w consles if that is agreed on, I have no problem with that. Also I might add my KDF chars now own an ams since it is pretty cheap in the exchange. I have not used it so far but I carry it with me and if meet an enemy team with 5 ams I might use it myself against them.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
What we wish for is all good and dandy, but there is a realism out there that people will do anythign to get an advantage.
OFFCOURSE i want fairness and a fun game, but when you have Cryptic not doign something concret, then what can we do?
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
True enough. But in a boxing match they would not make me face an enemy like Klitschko. Because that would be very boring to watch and I might not even survive his punch.
We have no matchmaking in this game. There is premade vs pug, there is veterans vs noobs and there are 5 cruisers without dmg in a team. Yes the most interesting and the most exciting matches are when both teams are equals. And I would like more of these matches.
But consoles are only one of many things that might create an imbalance. Actually they could even make things more interesting (in theory) by giving the weaker team a fighting chance. Also ships can be an equal if not greater advantage than consoles yet people all seem to fly what they want.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
tbr's
syphon drones
and danoobs are just boring
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Incorrect. This is a generalization and you know it.
There are some, like TRH that will call it a handicap to go up against an opponent using P2W. In fact, this example was taken from YOUR fleet. Long before Yoda became a target caller in TRH, long before Delta, Draco, Hank, Chorkswald, or any of the current TRH roster. I took this example and began a long journey. This journey is now complete, and this fleet now employs a deterrence factor when it comes to Sub Nuke Doffs and a Handicap attitude towards those that use P2W.
Setting example sets the bar for competition. When you ask "what can we do?" it seems almost as though you were never around for the days when TSI refused and influenced this community not to use P2W.
I'm glad TRH doesn't share your attitude. I stand by what Hilbert said, don't give boxers guns before they enter the ring.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I've got nothing against TSI and they have done good for PvP generally speaking. Still, they had members who would not only use P2W, they'd also take advantage of known exploits and bugs from time to time in the queues.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter
An example of something that makes perfect sense in meaningful PvP and something that's just tedious in casual PvP.
One can look at it as there are folks that have played meaningful PvP in the past and just do not know how to adjust to the casual environment...
...or one can look at it as the bullying hierarchy thing - something where people feel kind of small in their real lives and they're going to grab for anything that might give them a chance of not feeling so small. Often this means chest bumping after shooting fish in a barrel...
...or heck, one could look at it as a simple quest for tears - that sustenance some thrive upon and get the most joy out of: the more they can do things to make folks complain, the warmer and fuzzier they feel on the inside.
Is it fun to be destroyed on spawning ?
Is it fun to not have a counter available to
Something costing you the game ?
It is all real simple anything that causes the opposing
Player to not have fun or to cry out that's not
Fair or balanced is probably unfair and unbalanced
The main lesson is that if both sides arnt having fun
Only one side will play. That's fact
Our pvp ques prove this day I'n and day out
If it isn't fun they won't play
To be fun it must be balanced
Saphire.. Science ground......Ko'el Romulan space Tac
Leva........Tactical ground.....Koj Romulan space Eng
JJ-Verse will never be Canon or considered Lore...It will always be JJ-Verse
So I see one of the most common viewpoints is the fact that PvP in MMO queues is inherently unfair to some degree. We certainly can't do anything about that one.
I do realize that it is impossible to have a hard blacklist that many agree on, as some of you mentioned earlier. That's why I wanted to discuss this and just see what everyone thought in general, not to find out who's right.
Another one I see is the matter of degree. Some abilities, if used by one, are fine, but if the entire team uses them, it becomes tedious and unworkable for their opponents.
And finally, there are some abilities/tactics which most recognise as broken, which leave a bad taste in the mouth if used.
Oh, yes, and try not to name names for anyone who you believe is purposefully using broken stuff. Those tend to turn into thread-derailing/thread-closing arguments
This is very true. It's impossible, in any MMO, to create a fair PVP system, even if you put two players with the same ship and loadout, it won't be 'fair' as one side tends to have more experience than the other which results in it being 'unfair'.
That said I know our fleet, if we come across a poor PUG team will tend to sit out a player or two so that it's at least 'fun' if not 'fair'
You have a unique sense of what is 'deemed' fair.
Sad Pandas, Critz, TSI all host a very experienced roster.
TRH does not have an as experienced roster, yet we compete.
Doing things correctly, with coordination, and having pregame communication does not require "experience". This is the fundamental problem with people that do not PvP, they give up like you, and give answers that comforts them the most. In this case, for you it's "Oh they're just more experienced".
None of my guys thought they would be where they are today. Majority of them began when free to play started.
Let me give example of what a well versed pug group can do. It wasn't experience that won them this match, it was communication. The guy recording the match (sorry Hank) doesn't have an engineering commander ability on his tray! Despite this they had an incredible performance in the face of "experience" you have crowned.
Communication/Coordination is the King of PvP.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zew7j_IuAiE
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
So Pax and everyone else, in case of the so-called "fairness": Was it really nessecary for them to use all that p2w, when they kinda knew before the match even started that they would win without breaking a sweat?
Simple answer is simply yes. Why not? It gives them the purchased advantage coupled with existing broken or exploitable mechanics availble. It boosts their ego and shows them high numbers after the match. Good for them! Bad for us.
So the next question would be: Would they for next time play fair? Again, why should they?
They payed good money to stay on top and with the best ships and equipment out there, and no self-righteous player is going to tell them what they cant do!
So comes the problem how one is going to enforce "fairness" when people are so hopelessly dependent on the p2w, that they will fight tooth and nail to defend it.
So in all REALISM, people would do themselves a huge favour to not mix pvp and fairness in the same sentence, cause pvp is not about being fair. Is about winning and having fun! Even if that fun is on the expense of the opponents.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
With TBR being what it currently is, you could say "now" then...
It's just not feasible to go into an arena, get tossed around like a beach ball by the other team and told after you should have been prepared. With some going in with 2+ copies of TBR you'd need to go in with that sole thing in mind, and that's just madness. It can be said if you end up against a team of carriers stocked up with spam, or a pack of escorts etc. At the end of the day unless you know what you can expect to face, it's a gamble.
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I guess you don't play Golf.
There is something called a handicap in the game of Golf. Where you give an advantage to your opponent in the interest of having a more challenging match.
We all paid good money. They paid good money. I can tell you this about TRIBBLE, they are not using SN Doffs on us, know why? They ACKNOWLEDGE and RESPECT the vindictive nature of the SN Doff. They are using P2W because they can and want to. Which is fine, we employ strategy to undo P2W. If you are in a fleet that uses P2W and you dislike P2W, and would like to win against P2W without the use of P2W, then TRH is your fleet.
As for TRIBBLE. if this entails them using P2W and "god knows what" then so be it. The attitude employed at TRH is allowing a crutch for those that need that to level the playing field. TRH has played TRIBBLE. on several occasions, sure it's been rough and stressful but it's a challenge nonetheless. Does TRH have good relations with TRIBBLE. and the answer is YES! Why? They're people to play the game with, as opposed to people who simply "give up" or go to other games.
A win against P2W, coordination undid their P2W:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5M9Vg8gqNM
The realism behind it is that Hilbert is disgusted with P2W and finding it difficult to find a group of people who employ the same attitude as him. We back you 100% Hilbert. Coordination beats P2W, that's the bottom line. Coordination does lose to OP, example: SN Doffs. Which is why we use our deterrence policy on that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The handicap shouldnt really be there in this game. This game should be about utlizing the skills and abilities every player is given for free without using money, and then sow something together to make a good team, e.g like in GW2. P2W disturbes that balance sorry to say.
As for the extra crutch that might be so, but I dont see the need to go overboard with it, and use it all for all its worth. Now SOB was not meant as a target to be hanged out, if they interpreted it that way I apologize, but it served as a bloody good example.
Fair enough. You guys can show off how to win against fleets who use extensivly P2W, but the problem is that core pvp fleets need to do the same before any change can occure. If only a few is going to do it, the rest will just freeload by using P2W, have the same coordination and still come on top most of the times, because of said advantage.
Cryptic in all its infinite wisdom isnt exactly helping out on this issue, especially when they introduce new ships, new consoles etc (Vesta being the lastest).
Worst part is that most folks will buy it too! *sigh*
The realism still persist that pvp and fairness dont go hand in hand, although i wish sometimes it did. If Hilbert feels disgusted, then im appaled and I directly loath P2W. Ive expressed that early and on most occassions on the fourms and ingame, to the point people are tired of my "complaining". Most of the old core of TSI left STO for the sole reason that P2W has ruined the game. Era refuses to return, Aythani refuses, Faithborn refuses, Linty refuses and im on the verge on quitting alltoghether. For all I know I want this game reseted back to 1.2 where skill meant something, and where people didnt achieve easy wins by paying themselves to victory.
SHEESH! :mad:
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
I'm not saying the solution isn't teamwork, it's just that no one really disagrees there and it's a moot point.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
+1 Perhaps the OP can take items from these responses and make a generalized list (which is the first step). Perhaps Borticus will kindly sticky this thread if the OP creates a list in his first post?
1) I know that many big fleets out there will not use SNB doffs (yes, even post nerf) unless they are being used on them.
2) TBR is definitely broken and and is a no-no in fair play
3) "Danoob" shuttles
Those are to get the list started (at least until Tuesday for one of them)
While no one can stop people from using exploits, broken items and the like, at least the knowledge can be increased and culminated into a "community endorsed" list to show cryptic what is wrong about their balancing.
Make this thread serve multiple purposes.
I AM NOT A FAN OF PWE!!!!
MEMBER SINCE JANUARY 2010
Throw away your RMC, Lockbox Ships, universal consoles, Mk XII purples, Mk XII [acc]x3, 1000 day vet ship, pre-order bonuses, and pretty much anything that you had to stick with the game to acquire in the first place.
Don't get me started on the latest i7, Naga and what not.
Balance won't come from us not using danoobes, SNB doffs or whatever FOtM happens to rock someones boat. I m sure that s not what you wanted to hear, but after seven seasons this has become painfully obvious, imv.
instead of going with a sportsmen like attitude, as they do with CO pvp, befitting the IP , cryptic wants OP toys to fuel greed and impulse buys. They either don;t understand the concept of powercreep (which would make them very very bad at their jobs) or they don't care. While we're at it this is cryptic's game, not PWE's, or atari's, or the liberal media's, or whatever scape goat the CDF likes to raise.
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Make no mistake, if we were in the interest of "showing off" we wouldn't be making videos with our most sacred secret, our target calling.
We want the competitive nature of PvP to be enhanced by our knowledge of coordinated PvP. This can only be demonstrated in our videos.
I have said what I needed to say on the subject matter. I have posted a video disproving the argument about P2W being the be all end all. I have posted a video disproving experience being the be all end all as well. These posts should act as encouragement to those who desire to build a PvP team/fleet.
Because at the end of the day, it is in these videos that demonstrate one thing. A group of guys, just talking in a video on which ability use, when, how, and why. If these videos are deciphered by people enthusiastic about competitive PvP, then they will use these useful videos as "playbooks" or "guides" like in any sport.
We aren't here to gloat. If that were the case I would be posting uninformative screenshots of final scores vs other premades. We posted videos of obstacles that were met and overcome, that's all.
Thanks for your time.
Enter "Turkish RP Heroes" on youtube for more of our videos.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Starting w/your last point, I think there are ways to adjust builds to counter things fairly quickly in a match. But, espcially when pugging if you don't have the varients preset than it can be more trouble than it's worth. If I don't have a varient preset I'll often just eat my loses. Eg, I usually will have a CRF varient on one tray and a CSV varient on another tray, so I just switch a boff and a tray from 1-3 to say 1,2,4.
Imo, ever since a Dev annouced TBR wasn't being calculated properly and a fix was in the pipeline anyone who used it was a exploiting if they knew it or not. If they are aware you could report them for using known exploits (I know nothing may come of it). Exploits should be treated differently than imbalances and or P2W setups. This is on Cryptic to ban reported people from PvP if people are found to knowingly exploit mechanics in PvP.
As Havam implied P2W is ubiquitious now. It's not like 1-2 items and 1-2 ships are P2W. There are even degrees of P2W now, lotto ships/fleet ships generally >>> early C-Store ships. Further, there are abilities which are unbalanced which are not P2W, eg Tech Doffs. For every 1-2 things people rightly complain about in any given match, I could probably find another 6-12 things people are using in the match which are P2W and or unbalanced.
Personally, I have various P2W items/ships I use regularly and a couple I don't use except to counter annoy someone, eg I won't use AMS unless someone is abusing an exploit like TBR or Spamming a TRIBBLE ton of siphons or AMS. But, what I may concider abusive someone may not and vice versa. Trying to get 2 people to agree would take awhile. Trying to get all PvPers to agree would be futile.
I'm at the point where I just try to point out the really abusive potential of some things, and clarify if something is working as intended or broken.
Random Quote from Kerrat
"Sumlobus@****: your mums eat Iced Targ Poo"
C&H Fed banter