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A couple of ideas for tanking in PVP
gthaatar
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
Now, before I share my idea, I'd just like to point out that I don't PVP that much, but that I've played enough to get the general idea of how certain setups tend to be treated and how those setups affect an actual match.
Anywhoo, my idea for making the concept of a tank actually matter in PVP (in virtually every PVP I've been in, Tanks were only there to give Tac's and Sci's something to do while the other Tac's and Sci's respawned) is to redesign Threat Control to actually work in PVP.
And how it could be done is to introduce a low chance (lets say, 1-5%) of each beam or cannon volley automatically re-targeting the tank rather than the players actual target. This way, a Tank with 9 in Threat Control could actually tank and matter, rather than tank and not matter at all. A tank, I would think, should have its role in PVP defined as the player that draws and absorbs all the fire and helps keep the fire off of their teammates, but as it stands now, targeting a tank when a Tac or a Sci is still alive tends to be wasted effort. So in this way, now the tank has to be taken out before the Tac's and Sci's can be taken down, but this would also have to be in tandem with defending against the Tac/Sci players. A good strategy would revolve around destroying the tank while disabling or mitigating the others.
This would certainly give Engineers more of a defined and purposeful role, even in PVE, as well as promote more focused team work.
And as far as actually explaining how this would actually work canon wise, we could say it was a new ship system that generates some kind of space magic field that draws energy to it. Perhaps it something that out of combat would be used to collect and harness energy from space. We could also potentially use this same concept to devise a new Boff power that could convert the incoming energy from Drawn attacks into Weapons power, giving Cruisers more of a bite the more they draw fire from their teammates.
Of course naturally the tanking abilities of the other careers would have to be reduced alongside this (so that individual, undedicated tanking ability doesn't overshadow dedicated tanking, like it does now), and my idea for that would be a 5th Power Level, ie, Emergency Power, that all engineering abilities could run off of.
As it stands now, a lot of Engineering abilities don't require any power at all, and the few that do (Namely the Aux 2 abilities) aren't the bread and butter of tanking. If Emergency Power to Shields was tied to a power level that on Tac and Sci ships would be very low, then Tac's an Sci's would not be as overwhelmingly powerful as they are without an Engineer to back them up.
But anyway, those are my ideas. Feel free to dash them and for-shame me as you please.
Anywhoo, my idea for making the concept of a tank actually matter in PVP (in virtually every PVP I've been in, Tanks were only there to give Tac's and Sci's something to do while the other Tac's and Sci's respawned) is to redesign Threat Control to actually work in PVP.
And how it could be done is to introduce a low chance (lets say, 1-5%) of each beam or cannon volley automatically re-targeting the tank rather than the players actual target. This way, a Tank with 9 in Threat Control could actually tank and matter, rather than tank and not matter at all. A tank, I would think, should have its role in PVP defined as the player that draws and absorbs all the fire and helps keep the fire off of their teammates, but as it stands now, targeting a tank when a Tac or a Sci is still alive tends to be wasted effort. So in this way, now the tank has to be taken out before the Tac's and Sci's can be taken down, but this would also have to be in tandem with defending against the Tac/Sci players. A good strategy would revolve around destroying the tank while disabling or mitigating the others.
This would certainly give Engineers more of a defined and purposeful role, even in PVE, as well as promote more focused team work.
And as far as actually explaining how this would actually work canon wise, we could say it was a new ship system that generates some kind of space magic field that draws energy to it. Perhaps it something that out of combat would be used to collect and harness energy from space. We could also potentially use this same concept to devise a new Boff power that could convert the incoming energy from Drawn attacks into Weapons power, giving Cruisers more of a bite the more they draw fire from their teammates.
Of course naturally the tanking abilities of the other careers would have to be reduced alongside this (so that individual, undedicated tanking ability doesn't overshadow dedicated tanking, like it does now), and my idea for that would be a 5th Power Level, ie, Emergency Power, that all engineering abilities could run off of.
As it stands now, a lot of Engineering abilities don't require any power at all, and the few that do (Namely the Aux 2 abilities) aren't the bread and butter of tanking. If Emergency Power to Shields was tied to a power level that on Tac and Sci ships would be very low, then Tac's an Sci's would not be as overwhelmingly powerful as they are without an Engineer to back them up.
But anyway, those are my ideas. Feel free to dash them and for-shame me as you please.
Post edited by gthaatar on
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PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
like in dark age of camelot theycould block for team members to protect them, they could do decent dmg when skilled in 2h weapons or with an expension they actually had bodyguard making their target immune to melee weapons as long as the protected didnt move and stayed close.
in swtor tanks could use taunt to debuff an enemy. the debuff reduced the dmg severly unless the enemy attacked the tank. also there was a guard option which split the incoming dmg between the protected and the tank
now forcing an enemy to attack a certain target is not good a option i think. also setting a ship up to simply soak dmg and having everyone attack it... its not so much fun. target switches and baiting buffs is what makes pvp interesting.
to make engies in a cruiser more viable they should either have better support abilities, like additional heals not only for themselves but for others as well, or they should have something to increase their dmg.
also something like an extend shields that actually shares dmg might be interesting. that alone would make the self heals more viable.
My stomach is clear and my mind is full of bacon!
Well thats the point. It should have use in PVP.
As for Dalnar, I don't think you read my entire post. Its not just about tanks, but also tanking in general.
Problem i have with this is that it offers way too much CC for engineers and pretty much "steals" the sci captains role. Another issue i have with it is that such a tank cruiser would justify using RSP more, and have multiple copies which i oppose outright. A third is CC/buff/debuff misfire which can literaly TRIBBLE of people majorly if target all off a sudden changes.
PaxOttomana: gawd mirror event is like fighting a tsi premade, they keep comin and comin!
It's used by some for the additional defense it provides. Obviously not because it draws aggro.
when it added better hull resist. check tribble for yourslef. put 6 points into hull check resist. put 3 points into hull and threat and check resist again. you will see the 3 and 3 gives a bump to resist. just a .6. example 6 hull 24.0 3 threat 3 hull 24.6.
Perhaps on pets... not on players. And the player should be able to redirect the pets easily if they're paying attention.
If Cruisers could more effectively protect other ships within their sphere of influence, then their threat level would go up, they would become more high-priority targets, and the ability to resist damage would be more critical.
THAT's what Cruisers should be designed and balanced around.
The only Engineering ability I can think of that can protect multiple ships is Extend Shields and it's not Cruiser-specific.
I think Cruisers need a specific, innate ability to extend some kind of protection to other ships. Something to clarify and improve their intended role in the game other than being damage sponges.
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Make MW and RSF usable on allies, give it 6 months to settle, then see if Engi's still need a tweak.
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe
I'll say what I said in the other thread:
Make EPS_PT a drain field instead of a ST EPS buff.
Make NI an AoE drain resist buff instead of a ST drain buff.
Make MW launch a support platform that launches drones.
No special taunts needed that break gameplay, No placates needed that break gameplay
R.I.P
Positional tanking would be much easier on the ground than in space. Besides, what you describe - doesn't that sound more like some sort of sensor dampening field that a Sci ship might use - "cloaking" what's on the other side of it?
I was thinking literally allow the Cruisers to be able to block LOS and absorb incomming fire to help protect other vessels as a "living shield"
R.I.P
Cruisers are too slow to "shield" things in that sense on a 3D map. We also have the issue that - generally - there's no collision detection on things outside of their intended targets.
Speaking of the shield aspect though, it's one of the things I mentioned in an older one of these threads. Eng can drop out a Cover Shield on the ground... in Space though - it's a C-Store item. Definitely think that should have been an Eng innate or an Eng Space BOFF ability.
I always figured that EXS was the space version of a cover shield.
The ideas of a Taunt seem unfair as it takes the play out of being a player by making me do soemthing I would not against my will, change targets.
The idea of placate is unreasonable since the game already has Placate abilities in play, mainly the AMS, SS and JS and soon to be adapted KHG shield.
The Cruiser may just have to settle on the role of "Tank" meaning hard to kill as oppossed to "living shield that draws all agro"
R.I.P
I think this points more to a healing problem than anything else, eh?
If one pictures a 1v1 with the following:
Low Damage - High Tank vs High Damage - Low Tank
One could easily say that each has a 50-50 chance of winning that battle. The damage and tank would balance out against each other. The LD-HT guy might survive long enough to kill the HD-LT guy or the HD-LT guy might kill the LD-HT guy before dying himself.
When you add in healing based around high damage - the low damage guy has become useless. The high damage guys might squeak in that attack that kills the target. The low damage guys are not going to do that.
Have to wonder if they looked at balancing it in that way - just the HD-LT vs LD-HT - while ignoring the effects healing would have on that fight.
A upward spiral of ever increasing imbalance thats at the base of all the imbalance brought by consoles,doffs,equipment sets,special ships,etc.
R.I.P
Draw Fire (Space)
Redirects a percentage of the damage the target is taking to your own ship.
Level I: 20%, 5 second uptime
Level II:30%, 10 second uptime
Level III: 40%, 15 second uptime
If you make it an engineering ability and tweak percentages and uptime, it would be an interesting doing something like 'Extend Shields' at a certain cost to yourself (the damage you take).
Or, make it an AoE field where a certain percentage of all weapons fire coming from enemy ships within the field OR hitting friendlies within the shield is redirected to you instead. I can't remember, but I think I saw this ability in one of the Armada games or something.
Just my two cents, assuming that more tanking is needed in PvP.
huh???
I see you've bought into the escorts are OP argument when no serious top level pvp teams field more than two due to the liability to the teams welfare. How much more effectively would you like cruisers to be able to protect ships? THAT'S exactly what cruisers are designed and balanced around...
Perhaps you mean engineers?
It wouldn't work like that. The chance of fire absorption actually occurring, balance wise, would be low enough that you'd still, ~95-85% of the time be firing on your intended target. The essential idea is to give tanks an AOE DPS reduction while at the same time making the fact that they're tanks actually have purpose in PVP beyond just being damage sponges that don't become actual targets until the Tac's and Sci's are already dead. Plus the effect would also have a limited range, say, 5-7 KM (exactly, mind you. Under 5km and you're too close for it to work quickly enough, over 7km and you're too far away) from the tank for fire absorption to occur.
With fire absorption, tanks now don't have to work so hard to be more like Tac's to be worthwhile in PVP (In my experience, only tanks that are just a short way from being outright Tac DPS ships/players, only ever really matter in a PVP match. All others just get ignored until everyone else is dead) and can focus more on their intended healing purposes.
Teamwork becomes more important as now each career becomes an equal oppurtunity target, and as such teams have to decide which ships to focus fire on. Does your team hammer through the fire absorption and take out the Tac's and Sci's or does it break the tank outright and deal with the rest after? Does your team split up and and attack the Tac's and Sci's from the rear while the tank and one or two others takes the brunt of the assault? Do you Grav well them to oblivion and back and AOE them to death, taking advantage of the absorb's limited range? Divide and conquer or nuke the lot? Etc etc.
And as for placate, personally I'd rather see that get nerfed significantly (it should be an extremely rare occurrence) or have an actual defense against critical damage occurence introduced. For instance, say Kinetic resistence now also increases (at a far less rate than the normal Kinetic resist) resistance to Critical chance. Call it reinforced structural integrity or something.
I never said escorts are OP... One-on-one, a cruiser can effectively stand up to anything an escort can dish out.
I'm saying that cruisers can't effectively protect any ship besides themselves in PvP, so they're not good at the traditional "tanking" role. They can't soak damage on behalf of another ship and they're not a big enough threat to distract escorts from making their attack runs and focusing fire.
Whereas escorts have an innate advantage in damage even without BOFF abilities, cruisers do NOT have any innate advantages in protecting other ships... their ability to protect their allies is completely dependent on BOFF abilities -- many of which can not affect more than one ally at a time and are then subject to cooldown. And those are at least partly offset by the BOFF abilities of the escort class to boost damage output.
The only advantage a cruiser might be said to have is the ability to soak up a little more damage while they're buffing up their teammates. But using their BOFF's to heal up teammates means those defensive powers might not be available to keep themselves from going kaboom. It really only makes a big difference when cruisers are reinforcing other cruisers. Otherwise, one cruiser can only really defend one ship at a time. You'd basically need at least one cruiser for each of any other kind of ship... not necessarily a bad thing except that you have to sacrifice manuverability and DPS to do it.
I wish Roach's suggestion about blocking LOS could be effectively incorporated into the game. It might solve some of the issues. It could be sort of a "poor man's" Extend Shields in a way that's not too overpowered and let cruisers play to their real strength at soaking up damage and get out in front of the weaker ships.
I do agree that "taunt" is a bad mechanic for STO PvP combat and there are enough of those kinds of CC abilities that we don't need one more flavor.
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in pugs, lone cruiser can more or less protect himself fine with a good build, but cant do much more then that. theres not enough team work and cross healing so lone cruisers often fall prey to escorts easily, leading to complaint threads about how much they suck.
It's really Cryptic's own fault for taking too much of the cruiser's role away and giving it to silly ships like the Recluse. Yes, that's been the trend for all of the lockbox ships really, but the cruiser's the only one who got the shaft by not getting a cruiser lockbox ship so much as a science one that happened to do the snoozer's job better.
I actually really like Roach's LoS idea though, trouble is that I don't know if it'd be feasible. STO moves pretty fast.
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The fact you cant run ES and RSP at eh same time now should keep that from being to powerful.
You didn't exactly say escorts are OP, but you did say:
I guess I'm not sure what you meant by "escort dominated" and cruisers being low priority targets, slow and limited in their ability to protect.
QFT, except I'd add that kills can be accomplished by proc's as well
Everyone knows that a good heal boat is very hard to kill. This frees up heals so you don?t have to use them on yourself. Then you can focus on healing the person being attacked and make a weak target much much stronger.
If the heal boat does fail to protect the other ships then they will still have heals for themselves when the damage gets put back onto them. Hopefully you can live long enough for the other team to use their buffs trying to kill you. That way they have no buffs and your team is back fully buffed.
What is hard about doing it this way is you have to be fully committed to healing. You have to start every match thinking that you will have the lowest damage but the highest heals. Not just your team both teams and you should try to even beat or match your healing with the highest damage of the other team.
Think of tanking not as how much damage you can take but how much you can counter.
true, yet three healboats going through the motions of repeated alphas will survive. However, they won't score a kill either. So the best an eng heavy team can hope for is a stalemate.
I was thinking the other day about reviving the crew mechanic, to make sure 45min matches can result in 15 kills. I'm not yet sure how to apply the numbers, but basically on top of what we currently have affecting crew, it should become mechanic that simply tics over time, after e.g. 45 min cruisers pressure dmg, combined with their large crew, would get a significant boost, over escort burst damage, which would suffer the most from the crew based penalty.
If your burst ain't strong enough, you should die. Currently, you only die to procs (on both sides) or to your healing cycle getting screwed (aka falling asleep at the keyboard), we need a "penalty" for burst ships, not doing their job good enough that results in a kill.
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