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Threat generation + "taunt" ?
straden0
Member Posts: 78 Arc User
Forgive me if this topic has been brought up before, but I was having an in depth discussion with regards to why the escort captains were having a hard time dealing with losing the 2 piece borg + maco shield build.
Essentially, the Cruiser Captains are happy that they are needed again in terms of tanking, and that the glass cannons shouldn't be able to solo Cubes, to which I can understand, because diversity and teamwork in the game is a good thing.
But here's the jist of it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but 99% of the time the person doing the most damage is the one that is ultimately targeted, and hence the term of "glass cannon", don't last long.
Now the argument can be made with regards to doing sweeps, hit and runs, etc etc, all of which could be validated, but the problem I see remaining is the fact that the tanks cant/don't absorb the damage they should because the Tactical Cube is too busy spanking the guy who is hitting him the hardest.
Now, Cryptic implemented the whole "threat generation" skill, to which I dont know many people who would pump any skill points into that when they could put it into something more useful. I get what they had in mind there, but it was only half of the cake.
Some sort of taunt feature or an ability for those who are willing to soak up the damage so the escorts can do their job would be ideal, in my opinion.
Or if there is one, and I'm not aware, disregard this post, but as far as I know, I haven't seen one.
Essentially, the Cruiser Captains are happy that they are needed again in terms of tanking, and that the glass cannons shouldn't be able to solo Cubes, to which I can understand, because diversity and teamwork in the game is a good thing.
But here's the jist of it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but 99% of the time the person doing the most damage is the one that is ultimately targeted, and hence the term of "glass cannon", don't last long.
Now the argument can be made with regards to doing sweeps, hit and runs, etc etc, all of which could be validated, but the problem I see remaining is the fact that the tanks cant/don't absorb the damage they should because the Tactical Cube is too busy spanking the guy who is hitting him the hardest.
Now, Cryptic implemented the whole "threat generation" skill, to which I dont know many people who would pump any skill points into that when they could put it into something more useful. I get what they had in mind there, but it was only half of the cake.
Some sort of taunt feature or an ability for those who are willing to soak up the damage so the escorts can do their job would be ideal, in my opinion.
Or if there is one, and I'm not aware, disregard this post, but as far as I know, I haven't seen one.
Post edited by straden0 on
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I am a Science captain, So I don't get the skills of an engineer for keeping my ship alive, and I don't have the skills of a tactical captain to kill the things threatening my ship before they kill it. Now hear is the thing:
I fly escorts. I use the full MACO set and I solo elite cubes. Hear is the other thing. I do that with a skill build that is not ship or ability specific. A general purpose skill build. Hear is the final thing. I solo elite cubes whilst single handedly keeping probes, from my side of KA Space elite, making it to the temporal gate.
The three peace Borg set + MACO shield combo is over rated. If you know how to pick your bridge officer abilities and how to handle your ship you are often better off with other equipment.
The MACO shield + borg set combo is used by people who understand STOs abilities and stats and make the most of the combo for their purpose and their play-style. These people are unlikely to be too bothered about loosing the combination because they have the knowledge to find the new flavour of the month before it even becomes such.
The MACO shield + borg set combo is also heavily used by people who don't understand STOs abilities and stats. These are the people who are upset. They use the combo because they have been told too by others. Since being told about it they have found they survive a little better then they did before, but once it is no longer available to them they wont know what to equip instead. Some of them will have it hard for a month or two until a new 'best set' becomes common knowledge.
Imposing the trinity (Healer + Tank + DPS) on STO is a bad idea. Space ships should be multi-role. Especially in the Star trek universe. As it stands cruisers can fill the tank role pretty well, if their captain is willing to select bridge officer abilities and player skills which are less then effective for solo work. Cruisers can also heal very well under the same circumstances. And believe it or not Escorts can tank better then many think as well.
STO is all about BOFF abilities. If silver players had a few extra boff slots more people would experiment with different combinations of abilities and we might see more ships using abilities better suited to group work. As things stand most players just use the same abilities in groups that they use solo.
Most cruiser captians can't hold agro because
They do not invest I'n threat generation
You get approx 10 resistance for a full row of skill
Points
Seems pretty lame to sacrific so much for so little
That actually benefits the cruiser Captian . It defines
His ( role ) however most don't want or spec for the role
I'n the first place, I don't blame them
If threat generation benifited the cruiser caption more
Than other areas can I think they would spec for it
But not as lame as it is
If it gave the cruiser a 10 to 20% increase I'n firepower
I think most would take it and fulfill there role but not like
It's currently set up.
10 resistance isn't a bargain
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I as a Tac in a Tac oddy/bortas'que without the skill draw enough aggro and can keep it anyways. Keeping aggro on a single tank is not always a sound strategy, there are times when "ping ponging" the aggro is the better route.
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People can generate threat quiet nicely without it, and that bonus to defense is lousy. Better to invest in real systems like power boosts.
neither is able to solo an elite cube mind you, but both can handle large groups of most everything else without much trouble on their own.
Me playing UT2k4 (red guy) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz0DnP7wXnU
There really is no need for Tanknam Style since the enemies have no strategy except swarm you and blow you up with that invisible Plasma Torp that does 99999999999999999999999999999% DMG, and there is NO defense against that except maybe kiting the thing, which everyone does anyways. You're a HUGE Fool if you gonna park next to a cube going toe to toe with a High Threat Gen spec, "farewell pretty lady I feel for you, for I shall never see you again."
Get a wolfpack of Escorts and see the massive destruction ensue in less that 10 minutes - You get my drift.
So do not waste points on Threat Gen and use those points on other skills that will prove most beneficial, like armor plating reinforcement or something.
Sorry, but only stupid flying gets you killed by the Plasma Torps. You know that you can get under or over the Tac Cube where it doesn't shoot Torps at you?
Tanking is useful. My Engie in the Cruiser does it most of the time. At my next respec I will get 4 points in Treat Control so that even good Tacs in Escort won't be bothered by cubes, Donatra, Gates etc
The issue really is with the Threat Gen spec, which to me is utter TRIBBLE and useless. You can Tank with or without it, and tanking is only useful in an STF while Escorts kite.
In regards to Donatra, 5.5k to 7k distance is all thats needed with occasional kiting - the reason she claoks and re-heals is because of the dummies that get in her face. Its another flawed gameplay mechanic.
Now if this game was Terra Online, WoW, or even TOR and their boss fights, then tanking is of the outmost importance, same with Guildwars.
yeah, that is true. Only thing is you can then forget any PUG forever, unless you actually got a tank and/or dedicated healer.
with a taunt ability you could ping pong aggro. In my opinion or idea, cryptic should get rid of enemies focusing on one target and any form of aggro therefore. let them distribute the firepower equally to players around the boss. No spike dmg, but more torp spreads or fire at will. fighting a boss should be more an endurance contest than a evade or heal out spike dmg.
Give us more content like that and just watch threat control become insanely useful.
Something more usefull? The threat skill validates the whole concept of a cruiser as a damage sponge! If you DON?T see how a tanking cruiser?s uber defences make this skill a must have... I don?t know what to tell you. If a captain is jsutpiloting a cruiser to try something new and is not interested in long term tanking then I can see skipping this skill, but my engi cruiser captain certainly has it.
Thats where players like me get in a quandary. I frequently rotate between cruisers and escorts with my tactical officer (and engineer). If I was only cpataining cruisers and the skill gave a better benefit, I would be more apt to get it. If I was to put points in "threat generation" and use my escort, there would be precious few cruisers that could take aggro off of me and I would be even worse off than before.
Edit: We don't even need new "combat stances" (except maybe on ground), we already have that in the form of power distribution.
No idea how hard it would be to tie the skill together with power distribution and the different effect it would have based on what system gets the most power
i skilled Threat Control all the way up to 9,
no NPC ever shot at me...
only when i was the only ship in the 10km range
that was true for STFs and Fleetmark missions...
and that is part of the reason i just don't like SCI ships, you can't do any damage, and you can't even utilize many of your tanking skills because nobody ever shoots at you,
even with Threat Contr. maxed out the Feedback Pulse ability can't work at all.
In PvP players stop shooting at you as soon as they see the Feedback Pulse FX, i don't do damage with it. And NPCs only bother with you if you are the last one standing.
Threat Control = FAIL
will never use that thing again
But they should give a "eng captains that learn 6 can teach taunt or provoke" some kinda extra treat for them.
This is right on. Hate needs to be generated by more than damage. Most mmo's everything has enmity tied to it. Heals and usin abilities. Also they should have consoles that have +threat bonuses to help peeps that wanna tank to tank.
Also using subsystem targeting should generate alot. You shut a targets engines down they will probably want to destroy that ship.
While the threat control skill is great for a cruiser, it feels almost like a punishsment if i decide to fly something else .
Yes, while a tac, or sci captains can do pretty well in a cruiser without changing their skills, a cruiser captain specced in threat control, wanting to fly an escort or sci ship will have more difficulties with almost every npc on the map firing at him...because of the lesser resistance of the ship.
If the respec was free, i wouldn't complain, but the fact is that it cost 500 zen.
I have a few ideas about this :
-add a new proc, having a 70/100% of generating threat to your target (so that the threat goes to you in 10/12 seconds when loaded with these weapons)
-or add a new weapon modifier, that add +X points to your threat control skill.
This way, i think it's fair for everyone.
I hope this things in the skill tree will get changed, because right now, i only use escorts/destroyers for endgame content. well i sometime take a cruiser out of the shipyard to play solo mission....because while it takes longer, the trek feel is much more here than in this tiny escort blowing things in 3 seconds.
PS : Also, i think that cruiser could do, with a FAW ability that fire only on your active target...
I happen to think the idea with having subsystem attacks draw aggro is a good one, same with consoles to help those who are willing to soak up the damage, do so.
I'm not opposed to the idea of escort captains just learning how to kite properly, but when it comes to the point where you're only good for one alpha, it just becomes tedious.
Also, to the post regarding us being delegated to roles (tanking, dps etc), I dont like it much either, but thats the direction they seem to be pulling STO towards.
Excellent debate so far, great suggestions.
For instance if you drop shields there should be extra hull dmg or crew dmg because of say secondary explosions.
Its never going to happen but changing how threat is generated and increasing dmg with beam abilities. Not just beams. But their abilities. Will also help cruisers and sci's get hate.
What about having battle stances? Either use the power distribution settings (which could produce soem pretty weird TC effects.
Or add a toggle to each ship, that switches the effect of Threat Control skill from + to -.
I use plasma beams and torps, the burn effect on them adds to your aggro, so I get aggro for shooting at them, but also an over time aggro building due to the fire/burn.
And I've been hit by that mega torp on elite... and looked and wondered why people moan about it, as it does kinetic damage and I have a very high resist to it. It did about 40% damage to me, nothing I could not heal back up before the next one.
Highest for torpedoes, negative mod for certain weapons. All affected by threat control skill.
If you want to end escort tanking (and I'm not saying I do), here's how you do it. Increase the recharge time (cool down) on cannons so an escort has to choose between sitting there taking damage when they can't shoot back, or flying away to cool down then charge back in for another strafe.
End cross healing - one ship should not be able to heal another in combat (with the possible exception of a SMALL shield heal as long as the shields of the helping ship are drained by the same amount).
Just my 2.3 cents on the issue.
Aggro also needs to be calculated based on durability.
This is backwards of how some games do it but I think is necessary here. A tough ship shouldn't generate less aggro than a weaker ship, assuming similar damage.
A flip side to this is probably that a feature needed is that heavy ships should do less innate damage but should have the ability to boost damage dealt based on damage taken. So the ideal there is probably one where certain weapon types would have an innate "Go Down Fighting" but lower base damage. Wide angle weapons in particular should have this, IMHO.
Thats your incentive for wanting aggro right there. your taking the damage not the rest of the team. Belive me in a heel of a lot of non elite stf stuff the amount of players who cannot survive grabbing aggro is huge.
Sadly, every so often I TRIBBLE off the cube enough for him to BO3 me for like 200k...
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