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This Week's Cruiser Thread
hereticknight085
Member Posts: 3,783 Arc User
I was noticing the forum was lacking in a cruiser thread, and since I know it's customary for there to be one either each patch or at least weekly, I have thus started it.
Now for the usual blah blah blah, cruisers suck, blah blah blah, make us a god ship.
Ok, that's done and over with.
Now for the real reason behind this post. I really want to know. How many of you think cruisers are under/over/just right on power level and ability. And I want to know why. Lastly, I don't want opinions mixed with facts. I don't want anyone to argue that someone else's point is moot, or bias, or total bs. I only want you to say what you think is the case, and then leave it at that. Feel free to read other's posts, but I would prefer you guys not start attacking each other.
Basically I am asking you guys to keep it clean, and just put your thoughts out there. Engage!
Now for the usual blah blah blah, cruisers suck, blah blah blah, make us a god ship.
Ok, that's done and over with.
Now for the real reason behind this post. I really want to know. How many of you think cruisers are under/over/just right on power level and ability. And I want to know why. Lastly, I don't want opinions mixed with facts. I don't want anyone to argue that someone else's point is moot, or bias, or total bs. I only want you to say what you think is the case, and then leave it at that. Feel free to read other's posts, but I would prefer you guys not start attacking each other.
Basically I am asking you guys to keep it clean, and just put your thoughts out there. Engage!
It is said the best weapon is one that is never fired. I disagree. The best weapon is one you only have to fire... once. 
Post edited by hereticknight085 on
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Comments
The negh'var is a perfect example of how cruisers should be able to maneuver.
Also a little inertia increase would go well along with that in my opinion.
Some of them just feel too clumsy.
This^ .
Some new weapons, new BOff abilities added to the game
A turnrate buff and I think the "Cruiser is weak" issue will be solved.
R.I.P
I could help but laugh about this
Been there, done that... the Vesta is on its way to a store near you...
As for what I feel is up with cruisers is all the indirect nerfs by the simplification of the game, the removal of any viable Jack of all trades builds (a move I really don't like) and throughout this they have had no enhancement or adjustment to suit the current game climate.
I mean cruisers can do two things at a time:
DPS/Tank
DPS/Heal
Tank/Heal
All these combinations they do well but when you try for a balance of DPS/Tank/Heal it falls flat on it's face unable to do any of them. This is where cruisers need adjusting so that they can fill all these roles simultaneously with an advantage in tanking over the others, this would be balanced as due to the team healing capacity would reduce damage output a little however I think all we need to facilitate that though is a small buff to beam damage as it only takes 3 DHCs to match the output of 6 beam arrays at a far better price in power; anything more on that is 100% profit.
Over than that I think cruisers are ok, they just need targets in game that don't die to burst damage and NEED the sustained output from beams to make them desirable again.
However, I do feel that a Fleet Regent is in order with +10% hull/shields and 1 extra Tac console. Same thing with a Fleet Dreadnaught and Fleet Excelsior (even if certain abilities need to be made consoles to do it). With ships like the Vesta out there, I feel this is needed to keep cruisers competitive (and keep these out of the Tier 5 shipyard. Tier 2 or 3 would be just right).
1) Role, in group PvE (Estfs) an escort can be tanky enough that they do not need a healer or tank. In said situation it is more effective to have the DPS increase that an escort would bring regardless of if they bring 10% more DPS or 50% more. That said this should be addressed in S7 with the borg set nerf, the BFI doff nerf and the change to cubes where they can fire torps into their blindspot now.
2) In solo PvE the goal is to smash the mission as quickly as humanly possible. Cruisers are at a disadvantage again due to the lower DPS and much slower travel speed. My escorts typically don't even get to go into full impulse between NPC groups. This could be solved by granting cruisers (and Sci) perhaps an increased interact speed with objects or something similar but it really isn't a big deal.
Cruisers are underpowered.
A well built escort can fly so fast and so evasively that whatever damage DOES stick to them can usually be shrugged off even with their lesser healing abilities. A stationary escort is less durable than a stationary cruiser, but a stationary escort is suicidal so it's not really a useful comparison. Occasionally escorts will just spontaneously explode with no chance to throw a bandaid on the holes in the hull, but generally speaking, they kill things so fast that the numbers facing them swing in their favor very quickly: an uber-escort can wipe out a formation of 4 or 5 spheres in seconds, while in my cruiser I engage one target at a time, taking a minute to kill each one, and I am forced to face the enemy's overwhelming firepower for a longer span of time.
Cruisers have less firepower, fewer tactical abilities, and the tactical abilities for beams are fundamentally poorer than the ones for cannons; cruisers generally have fewer tactical consoles and weapon power buffs; cruisers generally have about 20% more hull and shields than escorts, in exchange for at least 50% less maneuverability which makes it extremely difficult for them to dictate combat range and facings; and their vaunted durability really only means that fights either drag on indefinitely or you get buried under an avalanche of enemy firepower that you can't repel or get away from. Defense doesn't win fights: hurting the other guy faster than he can hurt you is what wins fights.
I feel like I'm contributing to the team in my cruiser, but as a cheerleader, or that guy keeping the drinks cold while the actual players are out there winning. Stay in the rear, throw torpedoes, heal the escorts mixing it up in the mid field. The team would probably be better served by another escort that can help them kill the enemy even faster because the faster you kill, the less damage you take and the more irrelevant healing becomes. The only cruiser I have that actually feels like I can be a player instead of a cheerleader is the Vor'cha, with its not-terrible maneuverability and its ability to mount dual cannons. Use that as a baseline for what cruisers SHOULD be capable of.
Do I seem annoyed? >_>
I think, however, that the biggest crux behind them is the slow turn rate. Now, with that said, we all know why that is the case. But I think that we could give some love to their turning ability (namely because Fed cruisers don't use cannons --- don't mention the galx please, I pretend that ship doesn't exist).
Like someone else said, a 10 should be the maximum cap, and that should only be for a few. But, for example, keeping a Regent's rate as low as it is is a little silly in my view.
Giving them more tac boff options might be called for as well. Perhaps in the form of universal boffs.
But you guys can't honestly expect a ship to be able to fulfil three roles
at the same time. That's silly. I'd like a ship that can heal, do great DPS, and tank (insert Vesta joke here -- sorry PWEcrew, I just had to), but that expectation is just misplaced.
You can already tank, you can already heal, and you can do good damage already. If some of you are having trouble doing the latter, look up some threads on these forums, as they offer some good help.
Turn rate adjustments, and maybe some boff adjustments, would make the ship class perfect. It really would. Think about that Borticus.
I'll use this to also plug my request to buff the Nebula's turn rate by one or two points. Purty please! In the pilot episode of DS9, a Nebula and Ambassador pull a pretty tight turn into an attack run.
I think the way to increase their worth would be to allow ship damage at normal difficulty, that way escorts would have an increased cost with their usage in PvE which would then permit the choice of cruisers to offset that cost.
Allowing captains the choice is the key. If you truly want to know if they're OP/UP sit outside DS9 for bit, the cruisers still outnumber the escorts considerably, and if the escorts really were that OP you'd see far more of them than you do atm.
ETA: As for the turn rate there's a perfectly good eng console to boost that (I know because I use it on all my cruiser builds).
That's preference, not performance.
If you want to see power, start playing ISE constantly and look at what team compositions can complete the mission with the most time remaining.
Indeed, and as far as RCS consoles go. Slapping one (or two or three) onto a ship with a turn rate of 6 doesn't really do much, and you lose two or more armor consoles. It's too much of a tradeoff to be useful.
Nouveau riche LTS member
mi opinion: the concept of crucier/escort is realy wrong (i know it will never change) a escort is a small version os a crucier with fast speed and turn rate but cant not withstand same punishment than a crucier, the crucier have more than enough power core to feed same weapons as a escort and be capable of made the same dps(with out cannons) but it will never happens
some one can say:
"ey crucier can load 8 beam and broadside a target!!!!!!!!!"
mi answer:
broadside of 70? degrees (lesser than a torpedo :P ) against a fast moving target?? they move a keep them self in front or in the back and the crucier ends with only 4 beam attack, sound like a joke to my
What i wish?:
A heavy torpedo class weapon for crucier only (not escort/scie/bop) so atleast the crucier can fill the role of bombers (they have mor than enough space inside the hull for carry a big number of warheads).
Mi question:
A crucier is a cargo ship??? Why can have more than a lt tac slot?
some one can say:
ey some crucier have a extra ens tac.
mi answer:
yep, sure u can fire a THY3 or a CRF3 with that :P
some can say:
ey u can pay for a (C)store crucier with a ltcdr tac slot
i say:
yep, but why if i pay for it cant be a ship what i like to fly, like the Galaxy (give the chance to use a skin of it :P "never happens i know")
i really dont like the new cruciers from (C)store.
this is a pay to win .... but give what a like and will pay!!!!!!
_______
if only the suricatas revamp proposal have a chace so i can pay for a nice systems ship and upgrade mi galaxy....
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=257999
http://www.suricatafx.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Ship_Tier_Changes.jpg
The biggest issue with cruisers is the fact that they lack the DPS of an escort and the debuff/crowd control abilities of a Science ship. They have a few abilities that can provide modest boosts to firepower for a short period of time (very short), but those boosts don't come anywhere near closing the firepower gap between a broadside cruiser and an unbuffed 3x DHC 3x turret escort. The one crowd control ability they posses - Eject Warp Plasma - is unweildy and difficult to use, often requiring maneuverability that cruisers just don't have.
That said I don't want my cruiser to be able to match an Escort in raw DPS (heresy!) but I do want it to be a little more powerful and a little more useful. Short of adding new skills I'd like to see some buffs added to existing skills - like extending the life of the damage boost granted by EPtW, reducing or eliminating the power drain from Beam Overload, and maybe adding a little damage boost to Directed Energy Modulation.
There are other things that I think would work great to redress the balance issue as far as ships are concerned, but that's something for another day.
Thank you, that just isn't fun
I think this would be a good idea, why not have it such that all the EPtX boosts last for the time period of the skill itself?
Reduce maybe but not remove... that would be silly
C'mon Adam - you can't be in favor of a cruiser buff - you and I both know how hard the Excelsior already rocks - that just wouldn't be fair
Regarding cruisers and DPS ... I've always been of the camp that cruisers should be able to (when built right) roll right into the middle of the fight (not hiding on the edges) and throw punches.
They should not have the DPS alpha strike that an escort has but get their overall DPS through being able to simply hang in that fight longer.
That's how I use to play the cruisers when the game first launched. Have to admit that I don't run cruisers all that much any more.
U.S.S. Maelstrom, NCC-71417 (Constitution III-class/flagship) --- Fleet Admiral Hauk' --|-- Dahar Master Hauk --- I.K.S. qu'In 'an bortaS (D7-class / flagship)
If escorts weren't perfectly capable of doing the same thing as you just described that would be the way to play a cruiser. But Escorts can do that. And they can do it better because they have better firepower and the maneuverability to keep their guns on their target.
But I think the beams vs cannons and their associated powers need to be tweaked a bit.
If "Fire at Will" could function more like cannon scatter volley that would help a lot. Maybe if you have a target selected FAW would concentrate the extra shots in a cone, but if you deselect targets you get the disco ball? I'm just tired of seeing shots hit things like gates and other random targets that I'm not focussed on, overall I feel like I'm doing less damage to my targeted enemy that way.
It's sad when a FAW, followed up with a Torp Spread is less effective than a cannon/turret build using cannon scatter volley.
The problem with this is the direct connection between the two that stimulates the problem
NOTE: Not create, not cause just stimulate
There is also the problem that, except for one very specific (and expensive!) exception, using torpedo spread immediately after FAW excludes broad siding. This also requires 2 tactical slots to pull off, and many cruisers only have 2 slots total to work with, which means you're giving up the absolutely invaluable Tactical Team in order to get basic tactical functionality.
Was not my intention to do so, sorry.
@momaw
What they need to do is tweak Tactical Team so that it ceases to be the "must have" tactical power no matter what ship you're flying. Of course if they do nerf the auto-rebalancing feature of it I'm going to be just as upset as everyone else.
Though - if they upped the speed at which the manual balancing worked it might be enough that Tactical Team is no longer a "must have" though I doubt they'll do that.
1st sry for mi english.
Realy sry maybe i need a lot more of practice with mi english.
Mi intention is not match a escort or overpower a escort.
I only wish a more effective crucier to fly with, and a think what the cruciers most cover the role of bomber i give up the +5 to wep and aux for more competive torpedos
and be honest what can do a crucier with only a Lt tac or Lt + ens tac. this is what the fans of TNG get and if u are a follower of the galaxy class like mi yuo only get a Lt tac for a Flag ship :eek:
is mi opinion dont want ofend any one.
thats where your true disappointment lies, not with cruisers in general...it is that specific ship. If you want a potent cruiser get another one!
the galaxy is the weakest ship dmg wise, it is only good for support or tanking (not even tanking in my opinion)
get a more offensive cruiser (excelsior, regent, tac oddy) and all you wish for is there.
most cruiser threads aren't even about cruisers in general, they are about how weak the galaxy is, and honestly i agree...but please, leave that ship alone and do not generalize cruisers based on that one ship.
The only real problem there is that the Galaxy was such an iconic ship. A huge part of the franchise was based off of the D and the 24th century in which the D was the flagship of the federation, and the Galaxy was considered probably one of the, if not the most powerful starship (NOT warship mind you) in the Federation.
But baudl is right. If you get more combat oriented cruisers, like the Regen and Tactical Odyssey, you will find many of your damage dealing woes become a moot point. Heck, even the free Assault Cruiser, and MU Assault Cruiser is good at dealing damage if built properly and geared towards damage.
The only catch here is that if you are geared towards damage in a cruiser, you will sacrifice some power in it's main strength: tanking and support (something that I've been made painfully aware of on more than one occasion by a Borg Tactical Cube/Transwarp Gateway that decided to educate me on that fact). The only problem with cruisers in this department (and I mean ALL of them, not just the Galaxy) is that if you spec them towards damage, you will lose out on defense. But that's how it goes. You can't have it all.
The issue with this is that when speccing into damage you lose less defence than you do damage by speccing a healer.
Call me stupid if you will but I still can't see what is unbalanced about a Jack of all trades cruiser after all that is the primary purpose of any cruiser, right? Fill the hole in a given group...
If anything it takes more skill to play the Jack of all trades than to play the tank or damage dealer or the crowd control or the healer as you need to be able to pull all these off and prioritise the aspect the team needs while doing the other bits.
The problem is that you just can't do it... you spec widely to cover all bases and you fall flat on your face and end up completely useless. Now I know you can't be the best at everything (unless you fly the Vesta) but you should be reasonably capable of everything in a cruiser. That by their definition (and in game description) their job and purpose and if you look at Starfleet that's what they are GOOD at.
dmg like a regent + support like a sci oddy and tank ability like a operations oddy? well that's not going to happen.
infact i named already the only ship that would actually fit your playstyle...the oddy. i mean you just need to change the universal BOFF slots to accomodate your current need during combat.
that you can't specc for it is not true, since 6 points in most skills is sufficent anyway, that leaves enough points to even skill particle generator or graviton generator for a usefull grav well.
and if you leave out projectile weapons and go all beams you can easily skill a third or fourth sci abilitiy.
myself i use a oddy starcruiser, and i do not seem to lack neither support, tank, or dmg in PVE atleast.
My engi captain allows me to run high powerlvls nearly all the time (+maco shield) this means i can effectively heal others with TSS2 and HE1 (again, in PVE only)
and with 5 tac boff slots i'm usually not far behind in dmg numbers. The only thing that is really on the edge is tanking, since most tanking capability comes from the engi captain itself and not from the BOFF setup.
so, in my opinion the different oddy versions can provide a "jack of all trades" build without signifficantly suck while doing so.
I think this would solve the majority of the issues with the actual design of cruisers.
As for the actual role a cruiser is supposed to fill in PvE, the problem is not with the actual design of Cruisers and more the design of PvE.
So either PvE needs to change to actually make the role of healer or tank useful, or Cruisers need to be brought in line with what this game has for a PvE environment.
The same can be said of Sci ships.
Right now PvE has, broadly speaking, two levels of damage output from NPCs:
1) Not enough damage to realistically stress a careful or well played Escort.
2) Enough damage to one-shot kill even a good cruiser.
Damage levels could be:
1) Enough damage to stress a good cruiser, without the cruiser being attacked by everything on the map.
2) Enough damage to stress a good cruiser that has healing support from another ship.
This would push the game more towards holy trinity playstyle.
You can argue the merits or negative aspects of that all you like.
Without a playstyle that pushes closer to that, there is no point to have a ship that fills any role outside of DPS.
If that is the design intent of the game (no trinity or role specialization pve model), then fine - but the ships that were designed for roles that are not actually needed should be brought in line with the game environment.
Otherwise we can expect threads like this to appear for as long as this game exists.
But ultimatum is right. As long as most of the end-game content is damage based, ships that don't have high DPS/overall damage output will be left behind.
I fly a tac oddy that can deal some significant damage, but only because I designed it specifically for damage output. Even then though, I still have trouble keeping up other ships (like KDF battlecruisers) when it comes to damage output. As support and tanking go, even specced towards damage, my Oddy works wonderfully. Sufficed to say, if I am on the map and actually awake and paying attention on my engi, whoever has aggro is guaranteed to have at least 4 heals ready to throw at them at any given time, 2 HoTs, 1 big heal, and 1 small heal (HE1, TSS1/TSS2, ET3, Aux2SIF3). I occasionally reserve one or two of them for myself, but only when I have aggro.
So I can still deal some pretty nice damage while at the same time heal others AND tank if I need to. But since the game is geared almost purely towards damage, it makes it hard to justify using my tac oddy over my FPE (which runs standard 4 DHCs/3 turrets build).
So what I can tell, other than being a little clumsy and clunky, cruisers as a ship class are fine. The only problems appear to be that the game doesn't need them. Which tbh is true. As stated, you don't need a tank, because you just kill it faster to keep it from hurting you, and you don't need the supporting heals, since most damage dealing ships can stay alive easily. And against things they can't stay alive against, it kills you so fast that you can't outheal it, OR it one shots you.