I wasn't entirely sure where to put this, but I think this is a reasonably good place. I was reading through Perfect World's SEC filings (for my own amusement, which says scary things about what I find amusing. Did you know that Cryptic sits within a matroyshaka doll of six different holding companies?) and reading about PW's revenue model, and how it must apply to STO, and eventually I came to the conclusion that what we are seeing is not only natural, but also ultimately beneficial.
Why?
Well, take two things first: one, I'm not an economist, and two, I don't know anything about STO's internal workings, so this is very generally deduced from the same perspective as any other player (albeit one who reads PW's SEC filings for amusement).
When STO moved from a subscription model to a microtransaction model, they obviously needed to increase the monetization of the rest of the game to compensate for the lack of revenue. It's not enough to just decide to stop charging people subscription fees and hope they'll make up the difference in microtransactions. I imagine that's both unlikely and impractical.
On the other hand, I can imagine that the STO leadership felt that just flipping a switch and making everything microtransaction was likely to cause a huge outburst of unhappiness and anger, especially with veterans. Perhaps rightly so, perhaps wrongly so, but I could certainly see it happening- look at how people respond to any attempt to decrease the dilithium rewards for STFs.
That said, take a quick look at how the STO economy and monetization actually functions. It's basically an extraction economy based on dilithium. Players 'mine' dilithium which they have to spend in order to advance and buy things in the game. (Yes, there are other currencies as well; but dilithium is obviously put forward as a foremost currency for a lot of things, such as Starbases, reputation, gear from the dilithium store, etc.)
Now, in order to monetize this, they had to let people 'buy in' to the dilithium economy. That means creating a place where you can buy dilithium for cash. They could have just created a cash 'store'. Go to the Cryptic Store, buy 150,000 dilithium for cash! But they didn't do that, probably because it would have pumped a huge amount of dilithium into the economy that wasn't being 'extracted'. As a result, we have the dilithium exchange and the C-Store.
You change your money for Zen, and then you have two options (really three... but the third is part of the second, and I'll explain why in a bit). You can change that Zen for dilithium by selling the Zen to other players. Alternatively, you can buy stuff in the Zen store, like ships and whatnot. Selling the Zen to other players for dilithium lets you advance faster in the game.
Now, I know nothing about STO's internal financials, but if I had to bet, I'd say that a huge percentage of the Zen people buy actually goes directly onto the exchange, and the Zen store sees a relatively small proportion of the total amount purchased. If I had to gamble even further, I would say that a significant majority of the spent in the Zen store goes to buying Master Keys, and NOT ships or other items.
Why? Because in order for the trade of Zen-for-dilithium to be of any value to players, the ones who are trading their time (dilithium) for Zen have to be getting something. Sure they're getting Zen, but what's Zen? A few ships or items? That doesn't seem like a practical economy at all, not sustainably. Sure, they could probably churn out new ships and new items to stick in the store, but that doesn't seem financially viable. No: that zen goes to master keys.
You need somewhere for those Zen people are selling for dilithium to be 'sunk'. Lockboxes are a perfect target. You need tons of lockboxes to get the 'best' rewards, which drives a constant consumption of keys. Now, you worry, of course, that if people don't get anything they won't buy any keys. So you give them a reward to keep playing- or if you're smart, you give them a third currency so they'll keep opening lockboxes. Like, say, Lobi. Where, in the lobi store, the prices are high and the stock keeps growing, thus driving people to open lockboxes and use up master keys, pulling zen out of circulation.
So what does this mean, basically? Well, it's simple. You can think of it as a series of interlocking circles, each getting smaller and smaller.
Dilithium <-> Zen <-> Lobi
Now, Cryptic can tinker with things at any point in the chain (technically; it may not be practical for them to actually change the price of Zen, but bear with me). They can increase the cost of master keys in the Z-store. They can increase the lobi cost of items. They could, I suppose, artificially prop up the dilithium-exchange rate...but I don't think they are.
Because there's ultimately an easier way to manipulate the chain and keep people buying Zen, and that's to tinker with dilithium, both the 'mining' and the 'usage'. If you increase the difficulty, then dilithium becomes more valuable and requires more Zen to purchase, which drives the purchase of Zen. Similarly, if you increase the use of dilithium (such as via the reputation system), then dilithium becomes more valuable and requires more Zen to purchase. Selling more Zen is good for Cryptic.
There's a delicate balance, of course. You can't drive the dilithium exchange rate too low- by making dilithium too valuable- because if you do, people won't buy Zen. They won't feel like they're getting enough out of it. You also can't let it rise too high, by injecting too much dilithium into the market, because it will disincentivize the 'mining' of dilithium, and because it indicates there's a surplus of dilithium that means people won't buy Zen- they don't need to.
Now that Cryptic's had the lockboxes and the Lobi store running for a few months, I bet they've figured out where they want the dilithium exchange rate to sit in order to maximize the sale of Zen. If I had to guess, and it is just a guess, I'd say they want to push it into the 80-100 dilithium/zen range. And their main mechanism to do that is to decrease STF rewards (which slows 'mining') and increase the use of dilithium (by making reputation and such require dilithium).
Okay, well, you say, obviously Cryptic wants to make money. Good for them that they're doing that. But how is this good for F2P?
Because, the way I see it, the economy is ultimately structured around the mining of dilithium. As a F2Per, you are a dilithium miner. But Cryptic wants people to buy Zen to buy dilithium, so as a F2Per, you are selling what the people buying Zen are buying. Cryptic can't go far enough to push out F2Pers because if they do, the economy will collapse. Instead, as they tinker with the cost of dilithium, what they're ultimately doing is making F2Pers more valuable parts of the equation because they feel that that will drive higher sales of Zen.
Does it suck that ESTFs will have lower dilithium rewards now, and that there's more places to sink that dilithium? Kinda, yeah. You can see that I was right there in the Tribble forums complaining about it. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that I like the way Cryptic has structured their in-game economy. Ultimately, it's focused around trying to work F2P in such a way that they can make a nice revenue stream while making the F2P players happier by providing them a constant state of advancement.
I think it does that. Rather than putting tons of ships into the C-Store, Cryptic puts out a lot of little, low 'cost' things that drive the dilithium market. Stuff like Starbase fishtanks. Embassies, Omega reputation. Individually, each thing is not that expensive. But I think they drive the market far more than putting out a new Sovereign-class skin (the Regent), because while maybe 1000 players buy the Regent, I bet some ridiculous percentage of the player base (30-40%?) is going to buy the fish tank starbase upgrade and they're not going to go 'wow that blows'. Every time I walk through my starbase, I see the security guards and I see the pictures of the Enterprise and I see the conference room and the bar and I go "this is kinda cool".
I also have a Galor-class, a D'Kora-class, and a Wells-class. But those things aren't hugely more awesome to me than some pictures of the Enterprise on the Starbase wall, and I think that the lockbox ships and the dilithium projects are both there to drive the two sectors of the economy- the big spenders who want everything and will pay whatever it takes, and the smaller players who like the idea of a fleet fish tank.
Anyway, I'm a F2Per. I've thought about buying a LTS, and I still haven't decided if I will. I've been a F2Per since STO went F2P, and I think I've done pretty well for myself through it. After thinking it through, though, I think we F2Pers are in a good place here. I think we have to be, and I think Cryptic knows that, because that's how they seem to have structured their economy. Even if F2Pers aren't directly giving Cryptic money, we are 'making' what they are selling.
I played pre-F2P and remember it as better than what we have now. New content was release for its own sake, not for the sake of pushing a new lock box. Sure the C-store sold stuff, but it was mostly cosmetic and not what people call pay-to-win like F2P kinda pushes.
I played pre-F2P and remember it as better than what we have now. New content was release for its own sake, not for the sake of pushing a new lock box. Sure the C-store sold stuff, but it was mostly cosmetic and not what people call pay-to-win like F2P kinda pushes.
Those new content releases where easy to remember, they happened so infrequently.
Change is never easy. I think that is what is so frustrating for a lot of people concerning the effect Season 7 is going to have on the Dilithium aspect. In a way everything about it is changing, and strangely enough, in a way nothing is changing, Think about it. With the addition of a non-subscription path to gameplay, it was a given that those who played for free would have a more difficult road than those who were willing to spend money. But everyone can play whether or not they pay.
My only problem with the direction they are taking is that I see PWE as double-dipping in terms of getting money from gold members. Because whether you are gold or not, these new Dilithium costs are there. So those who are already paying money are going to feel obligated to spend more to remain on top of the gameplay. That doesn't sit well with me. I am not a Gold member. But I know how I would feel if I was and felt obligated to spend more than my subscription just to be able to progress for whatever the latest flavor of the season gameplay system is.
I can't see this ever happening, though. I understand the frustration of people who were members before the transition to F2P; a time-gated system is quite different from a microtransaction system.
Obviously it feels like double-dipping if you're now still a Gold member and you still have to pay the increased dilithium transaction costs. But I can't think of a good way to fix that; the economy is now fundamentally different from what it was before when there was no need to maintain the same kind of dilithium gating (other than to handle inflation).
First, any solution that involves simply dropping dilithium costs or the like is in reality another method to 'mine' dilithium, and would probably have impractical impact on the economy by acting on the 'source'. What solution, then?
Well, I think at this point it's worth noting that gold memberships are significantly overvalued. Yes, you get the stipend. But for $15/month, you don't really get any significant ongoing benefit. You get a bunch of front-loaded stuff that stays if you go back to F2P (and is probably 'worth' more in Zen than your entire first month of subscription) and you get 500 Zen per month. I don't see it as being meaningful to be a gold member. If you want to buy a LTS, that's a different story; you are essentially gambling on the length of time the game will continue, because you probably get ~8000 Zen worth of stuff upfront and then 500 Zen per month for the lifetime of the game and you hope that it'll last long enough that you make the 30,000 zen equivalent back (or more).
At this point, gold membership seems vestigial. It seems to remain around for those members who were historically Gold members, but it doesn't feel like STO is encouraging it and it doesn't really fit into the F2P economy. I would not be surprised if, in the next 6-8 months, Gold membership simply goes away.
The only way I could see Gold membership working going forward is if the stipend were increased to around what it costs (say, 1400 Zen per month) and then most of its benefits moved into Veteran rewards. Rather than getting that increased bank space and everything all at once the first time you sign up for Gold, you got an extra twelve bank slots every month of Gold membership until you hit whatever Gold had been at before. That sort of thing. In this case, Gold membership is clearly not 'another class of member' so much as it is "If you're going to buy Zen anyway, let's make it worth your while to do it on a recurring basis and give you some rewards for your trouble."
Certainly, I feel like it might help take some of the sting out of people who feel double-dipped.
If you your not a economist(OP), how can you draw a conclusion that the economy in STO is "GOOD". There are so many underlining problems with STO's economy, someone could write a dissertation on it.
Cryptic/PWE should take the time to analyze the economy of EVE if they want to see a working, healthy economy.
First, allow me to introduce myself. I am Wraiven (not the wraiven who currently posts here, not sure who that guy is, but he pretty much stole my name when PW took over) and I have played this game and have been a lifer since beta. I left this game when it went F2P and I must say I am so glad I never returned to this game. First, "Perfect World" took over this game, forced me to lose my Forum name, gave it to somebody else, then went on to destroy any hopes this game had at being the game we have all asked for.
Perfect World along with Cryptic Studios has utterly destroyed this POS game. The only people who defend it, are those who are F2P and anyone who refuses to admit that this game is completely worthless.
Cryptic Studios lied to us from the very beginning. They told us we could explore the universe, discover new worlds that are randomly generated within the universe, told us we could name the worlds that we discovered, really loaded us full of TRIBBLE. How Cryptic Studios is even still in business I will never comprehend.
Now before you go telling me I am a Cryptic basher, I just want you to know, I was one of those guys who defended this game and Cryptic Studios to all the haters out there who rage quit and so forth. Yeah, I was one of those guys who was a fanboi who defended this game no matter what. Guess what, I have woken up the the BS this game has become.
So, I log on, I play the game for awhile and I am disgusted at what this game has become. Lock Boxes? Really? You guys are actually paying them for this TRIBBLE? What a joke. You lifers are actually still here playing this game? You actually support this TRIBBLE?
Oh, it's not just Cryptic Studios, almost all MMOs have allowed themselves to destroy their games with this whole "lock box" idea. MMOs have become the complete joke of the gaming community. Thanks to companies like this "Perfect World" and sell outs like "Cryptic Studios" these games are being created from the start as F2P and lock boxes. Perfect World should be banned. How any of you could even play a game owned by Cryptic Studios I will never comprehend. I for one will never buy another product by this misleading company ever again. It makes me sick how the MMO world has become a corporate business instead of what MMOs once stood for.
These companies should be abolished. Simple as that. STO was a lie...this game is nothing like they said it would be. Nothing. Now we have Neverwinter. Another joke, another game that has Perfect World's mitts in to it. Another MMO I will not be playing because the two worst MMO companies have their hands in it, Cryptic Studios and Perfect World. What a complete joke of a name...Perfect World. Vampires is what they should have named themselves.
I hope Cryptic Studios crashes and burns...along with the money sink known as Perfect World.
Cryptic/PWE should take the time to analyze the economy of EVE if they want to see a working, healthy economy.
There is only one mode of transaction in EVE, but STO has up to three. It's not even apples and oranges ... it's like apples and rocks.
I've tried EVE and sirsitsalot said it best:
... if you are not a hardcore player you might as well not even botherm because you'll never get anywhere.
I also agree with the OP.
Humbly speaking, and I've said it elsewhere, a "free" product demands the provider receive adequate revenue to maintain the product or its service to the consumer AND ... make profit (that's the Capitalists way). Sure, STO is not perfect, but it is what we have. Every consumer has a choice to either pay into the system or not. It's that simple.
Glad you enjoy the game, guy. They need people like you to pay their bills, and I am sure they are very appreciative of your wallet.
The fact that I no longer play even though I have a Life Time Sub, and the fact that I was once a HEAVY supporter of this game, who was once in your very shoes now, defending this game against any and all who dared to speak out against it, very much makes what I say matter. I am an outraged customer...and yes, I am a customer, I payed for a Lifetime sub...for a game...that no longer exists as the game I payed for. Now, if I want the better things in this game, I have to pay even more than I already have...for lock boxes no less.
I don't mind a market, but when I have to pay for these lock boxes, that grantee nothing inside them that I was hoping to get, it's a pure rip off. This whole game has been decieving us since before launch, and they continue to rip you off even now.
No, I have every right to express my discontent with this game...after all, I have litteraly paid my dues.
The only issue I have with that (it's very useful, though) is that the way the economy is structured, it's not perfectly marketable. I can think of various reasons for this, but the effect is that there seems to be no perfect relationship between Zen, EC, and dilithium (which there would be in a totally open market) because Cryptic doesn't want it that way. For example, take a look at the trajectory of various Lobi-store items on the Exchange, and you'll see the exchange rate isn't static at all.
The only issue I have with that (it's very useful, though) is that the way the economy is structured, it's not perfectly marketable. I can think of various reasons for this, but the effect is that there seems to be no perfect relationship between Zen, EC, and dilithium (which there would be in a totally open market) because Cryptic doesn't want it that way. For example, take a look at the trajectory of various Lobi-store items on the Exchange, and you'll see the exchange rate isn't static at all.
The Zen -> Lobi -> EC is either a massive devaluation, assuming 4 Lobi each lockbox, or players are obtaining an average of 16 Lobi per lockbox. The issue with the variations in EC values is because the currency is quite flexible. It shifts with supply and demand for items obtained only by Zen, Lobi, or Dilithium. Right now, you get more EC if you exchange Zen to Dilithium, buy uncommon unreplicable materials, and sell those on the exchange than if you go the lockbox key method of obtaining EC.
...No, I have every right to express my discontent with this game...after all, I have litteraly paid my dues.
Great , awesome. Express away. Seriously. Go ahead. Make yourself feel better by bashing, raging and hating .... YEAH .... I know those things always make me feel better *rolls eyes*
Seriously, you do have the right to express.
So go ahead.
But without any actual constructive ideas brought to the table, or an attitude that invites you know actual discussion, you are nothing but a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.
But please, go ahead and rage around about how a forum handle being taken by someone else who happened to like a pretty common respelling of raven makes PWE and cryptic the devil.
You have the right to express yourself.
And we have the right to ignore your ranting.
have a nice day
EDIT : To add what I was originally going to say.
Agree with the OP. Current model shows no real benefit in my mind to "go GOLD" as it were.
I basically see the choices as Silver with Zen Purchases or Lifetime with Stipend and shinies
The Zen -> Lobi -> EC is either a massive devaluation, assuming 4 Lobi each lockbox, or players are obtaining an average of 16 Lobi per lockbox. The issue with the variations in EC values is because the currency is quite flexible. It shifts with supply and demand for items obtained only by Zen, Lobi, or Dilithium. Right now, you get more EC if you exchange Zen to Dilithium, buy uncommon unreplicable materials, and sell those on the exchange than if you go the lockbox key method of obtaining EC.
I think the problem is that you seem to be (and tell me if I'm wrong) assuming that Lobi is a fully convertible currency instead of a 'reserve' currency designed to buffer Zen, which is how I think of it. From that perspective I don't find it odd at all that Lobi-> EC isn't well valued.
I think the problem is that you seem to be (and tell me if I'm wrong) assuming that Lobi is a fully convertible currency instead of a 'reserve' currency designed to buffer Zen, which is how I think of it. From that perspective I don't find it odd at all that Lobi-> EC isn't well valued.
I'm not an economist, so I'm not sure what you mean by reserve currency, but to me Lobi is one of the sinks Cryptic uses to remove $$ from the game. You're guaranteed to get 4 Lobi with each lockbox, but you need to be averaging about 16 to come out even.
Players put time/money into the game. Cryptic benefits by removing time/money from the game, which is why there are so many currency sinks (starbases, dilithium vendors, bound items, upcoming reputation system, etc.). Lobi is similar to a currency sink, although it's more of an indirect way to reduce the value of a player's time/money than an actual removal of currency from the game.
I have not spent a dime on STO since it went Free to Play, because Cryptic does not treat what I want out of STO as a priority. If they would start focusing on the creation of REGULAR mission content, then I will buy some Zen to make sure I can obtain the necessary Dilithium to access it, on top of what is already there.
I detest lockboxes as well. And I also don't like the double-dipping that Cryptic is doing by making gold status effectively worthless. Those who subscribe or bought a LTS should always be spared the monetization models put in place for those who have done neither. There are some exceptions such as optional cosmetic items... stuff that nobody technically needs.
Technically, YOU do not have to pay a dime. You can trade dilithium you earn in the game for Zen which you can use to purchase the master keys... Or you can even buy master keys off the exchange, though the EC costs are extremely high. The Zen does enter the game by someone either having spent money on it or else they posted up their stipend. But there is an avenue by which you do not have to spend a dime and can still get the best stuff. Time becomes the currency in that regard, and patience is the best virtue to have.
Of course you have the right to express your discontent. But if you are not playing, don't expect what you have to say to matter. To those who are playing or to PWE.
There are a lot of things wrong with the game. But the Dilithium-driven mechanics in and of themselves are not one of them. They will drive Zen sales while not requiring them. My beef with the game is with PWE/Cryptic's design priorities. They need to be able to make money from the game, but at the same time, they need to make the game fun so people wouldn't mind paying into it. There is a lot of stuff I could say against PWE and Cryptic, but saying it will accomplish nothing but getting me banned. I, too have reached my limit. I find it harder and harder to want to log in. Not because of their revenue generation practices, but because they are not even pretending to put forth an effort to make this feel like a Star Trek experience.
At the end of the day, as a friend of mine said that a friend told her friend and her friend told her... It's only pixels. It is not worth raging over. If it gets your stomach acid churning talking or thinking about it, it's time to let it go. And my friend, I tell you honestly that I am almost at that point. A lot of people are.
When I reach that point, I will not rage quit. I'll just quit. But I do still see the possibility of a compromise that will turn things around to at least a degree. While i can still stomach things, it is what I will reach for.
LLAP
\\//,
Ok, now you are talking more my language.
Here is what I am most upset about. The Devs told us, that they would be adding customization to ship interiors, specifically interior decors and roaming officers. We were supposed to get a way of changing their uniforms to match that of your officers and yourself. Hasn't happened. Ship interiors are not customizable and more broken promises.
They told us that nothing would be sold in the store that could not be obtained through "gameplay." I guess their idea of this is running with the Dilitium? Not exactly what any of us had in mind. Even still, I think I could overlook that if they did not have those silly lock boxes. It's the "you might get it, you might not...oh, not to mention you spend RL monetary currency for these....or you can farm Dilithium.
The only thing I like to leave up to chance, is grinding Ops to get gear off a drop...at least I do not have to spend cash to get those drops and I do not have to farm "Dilithium" to get them either. Whatever secret treasures they have in those boxes, needs to be available for a set price elsewhere. BUt alas, even SWTOR is even stooping down to this method of gambling and psychological mind twisting addictive maneuvers to suck an individual's pockets dry.
I had such high hopes for this game. The Devs even said out right that they were working on (or had plans to) Sector Space, to bring the seams together and get rid of all the zoning, in an attempt to make space in this game feel more real, to bring it closer to what they lead us to believe that it was going to be to begin with. Obviously that was just more broken promises.
Somebody asked in another thread, is the Star Trek IP doomed? No, it just has to be done right the first time. Sandbox, wide open space, with real space 3D movements with real travel times (well, as real as it can be within reason...we all know we do not want to spend a week traveling from point A to point with some incursions/first contacts/diplomacy in between. That sadly will never be this game, the game engine would never handle that kind of game.
Sadly, Cryptic Studios (in which sold out to Perfect World) got a hold of the IP and we all fell for Jack Emmert's BS hook line and sinker.
Hopefully this was a bit more constructive. With the way I feel robbed here, I can only be so constructive without letting my anger shine through. And yes, I am one mad bro. Sorry, but never have I ever felt this deceived, mislead and robbed by an MMO company as I do now. I hope you can understand.
I'm not an economist, so I'm not sure what you mean by reserve currency, but to me Lobi is one of the sinks Cryptic uses to remove $$ from the game. You're guaranteed to get 4 Lobi with each lockbox, but you need to be averaging about 16 to come out even.
Players put time/money into the game. Cryptic benefits by removing time/money from the game, which is why there are so many currency sinks (starbases, dilithium vendors, bound items, upcoming reputation system, etc.). Lobi is similar to a currency sink, although it's more of an indirect way to reduce the value of a player's time/money than an actual removal of currency from the game.
That's exactly what I meant; Lobi is only a 'currency' in the sense that, say, the Prototype Borg Salvage are a currency. They aren't actually convertible or tradeable to other people; they're more like tokens or scrip. By getting a lobi, you take an actual tradeable 'currency' out of the game. But because they want to give you a reason to get them, they let you trade them for other things.
Now, there's another trick to it, which is that unlike the prototype salvage, you can trade what you get from the lobi store. Which is why I say it's a 'reserve' currency used to buffer Lobi- it's not a full currency because it's not convertible or tradeable. The only reason it's meaningful at all in that sense is because the stuff you get you can sell on the exchange.
Those new content releases where easy to remember, they happened so infrequently.
Sorry , but I can't agree w/you there .
The first 13 months had a relative stream of content that included 4 STF and 3 FE , plus small missions for the KDF .
13 months after launch , things got bad .
But I'm never likely see such a rapid and continuous explosion of carefully crafted story based content in this game again . Ever !
Instead , I'm expected to sing All Hail to 2 seasons of grind content , that basically introduced 3 buckets to fill .
No , thank you .
Okay, well, you say, obviously Cryptic wants to make money. Good for them that they're doing that. But how is this good for F2P?
Because, the way I see it, the economy is ultimately structured around the mining of dilithium. As a F2Per, you are a dilithium miner. But Cryptic wants people to buy Zen to buy dilithium, so as a F2Per, you are selling what the people buying Zen are buying. Cryptic can't go far enough to push out F2Pers because if they do, the economy will collapse. Instead, as they tinker with the cost of dilithium, what they're ultimately doing is making F2Pers more valuable parts of the equation because they feel that that will drive higher sales of Zen.
This is a very flawed misconception. F2P's are not mining dilithium for the sole purpose of trading it for Zen. If that were the case you'd be right and these changes would be good for F2P's but you are wrong. F2P players also have to invest into dilithium sinks if they wish to be a functioning member of a fleet, use the doff system and also enjoy the End-Game (STF's). Thus the truth is there will be less dilithium on the exchange than before, because F2P's will want to be at end game as much as anyone else as it makes up most of the content beyond the episode missions (which require no dilithium nor give out any).
F2P's are now going to be squeezed as well, many may well end up buying Zen to quicken the process though any zen they buy will be devalued as dilithium gets scarcer. F2P's are not being valued, indeed they are the most expendable and transient of all the player groups in the game. The new dilithium sinks are designed to get more F2P's to buy Zen and also to make Zen less valuable than dilithium. As you say there is no long term profit in the store if the content remains at the volume it is on the store.
Thus the result is more people buying more Zen to buy what small amount of Dilithium will be available at the exchange.
Let me put this into start perspective for you, in the past 3 hours of play time I did 4 STF's per hour, that (1100x4)x3 + another say 12,000k on top for salvage/edc turn in. That is 24,000+ for one session, in a few days time I can buy enough Zen for a Key. In the new system there will be no turn-ins of the same value and none at all for 60 days. There will be a massive shortfall in dilithium.
You're right it will drive Zen sales, or people will just stop buying Zen in protest of the obvious money grab going on. However it will not make F2P's more important and they won't feel any benefit, they will just feel forced into buy Zen.
This is a very flawed misconception. F2P's are not mining dilithium for the sole purpose of trading it for Zen.
I didn't say they were; that would make no sense at all. Why would someone buy it if it wasn't useful for some subsidiary purpose?
think about this properly.
If you misconceptualized such a fundamental part of the economy that I was describing, I really wonder how much you could have thought about it at all.
The point is, your entire rant misses the point entirely. Because Cryptic is not, as far as we know, actively propping up the exchange, all dilithium must be mined, and driving the dilithium economy so far down is actually counterproductive for them.
Cryptic doesn't want to make it hard for people to be F2P; that would break everything.
I didn't say they were; that would make no sense at all. Why would someone buy it if it wasn't useful for some subsidiary purpose?
If you misconceptualized such a fundamental part of the economy that I was describing, I really wonder how much you could have thought about it at all.
The point is, your entire rant misses the point entirely. Because Cryptic is not, as far as we know, actively propping up the exchange, all dilithium must be mined, and driving the dilithium economy so far down is actually counterproductive for them.
Cryptic doesn't want to make it hard for people to be F2P; that would break everything.
Okay let me deal with this in logical order.
What you said was;
Because, the way I see it, the economy is ultimately structured around the mining of dilithium. As a F2Per, you are a dilithium miner. But Cryptic wants people to buy Zen to buy dilithium, so as a F2Per, you are selling what the people buying Zen are buying
Nowhere in your analysis did you mention that F2P's do other things, you fail to make the admission that F2P's are also customers in the Zen chain, that they also will be buying Zen and after season 7 will be buying more Zen to deal with the new Dilithium sinks. For me this omission skews your understanding of the matter.
You talk about the "economy" and yet nowhere do you discuss the cost of these changes to the Dilithium volumes of F2P's and how that will result in less dilithium on the exchange.
This is not a rant.
Clearly Cryptic want to monetize the F2P's as much as they can, they are the economic lifeblood of the micro-transaction market. It's not about making it harder it's about getting them to pay more. The point is the new dilithium sinks very simply put mean F2P's will putting less dilithium on the exchange.
Do you or do you not agree that there will be less dilithium on the exchange with F2P's now refocusing their dilithium on the new reputation system?
It also means people will be buying more Zen to convert to dilithium, thus making the dilithium more valuable against the price of Zen than it currently is.
The upshot is a 60-90 day increase in Zen sales, this slowing down once people are able to convert Marks for Zen. I can see at the moment short term profit.
The current dilithium market is excellent for F2P's they can mine a lot of dilithium just from STF's and convert in a matter of weeks to Zen. This system will cease to be in operation come Season 7, and will return in a diminished from after 60-90 days.
This doesn't make things any harder for F2P's but it does make it more expensive. Thats what the new dilithium sinks do, otherwise they have no purpose, other sinks could have been used.
The main reason the STO free to play model works is you can get nearly the same as everyone else, for free
I am a pure f2p'er myself and I took personal pride in grinding a 2500 zen ship knowing that was someone elses money, my reward for even being on the server.
However if the game discriminated me, denying access to say maps or outfits or whatever I wouldn't be here.
I think that part of sto is great.
However if I turn the tables around and look at it from a cash player's perspective I have to say 200 bucks is the price of say mass effect 2 (released same year as sto) and in my mind if I pay the price of a full game I own everything in the game.
So cash people should get a lot more if you ask me.
I feel f2p'ers are getting spoiled at the expense of cash people really. Just take the new reputation system, no matter how much cash you are willing to put into or have LTS or veteran wtf ever, you still get the exact same timer I do.
On the other hand I guess you could say with the old stf's f2p'ers were also getting spoiled in that there were no cash shortcuts.
I definitely feel I got the long end of the stick and to me it seems it was setup for people who can't handle themselves, who HAS to have it, whereas the f2p'er gets spoiled like he is the more demanding customer.
And so personally I also roll with the flow, if zen do get really cheap in season 7 I might farm for those, assuming they put up some new items soon, I might not - there isn't anything I have to have and I think the biggest penalty I can serve is going in-active, no more carrying pug's through elite maps, no more selling off the exchange and I am very conscious about my worth, what I put and what I get out.
Like the rep system, it doesn't take 20 seconds to find out it's not worth it, whereas there are people who can't help themselves that HAS to have it.
If I have 500,000 dil do I want a +2.5% to stun or a new top ship ? Whereas you got cash people opening their wallets just because it's new.
I actually heard that as legit argument on a podcast "well it's new".
So what if it's new if it's garbage. If I punched you 10 different places on your body with a bat, every spot would be new but how would it make you feel, it's just crazy talk to me.
Comments
Those new content releases where easy to remember, they happened so infrequently.
Obviously it feels like double-dipping if you're now still a Gold member and you still have to pay the increased dilithium transaction costs. But I can't think of a good way to fix that; the economy is now fundamentally different from what it was before when there was no need to maintain the same kind of dilithium gating (other than to handle inflation).
First, any solution that involves simply dropping dilithium costs or the like is in reality another method to 'mine' dilithium, and would probably have impractical impact on the economy by acting on the 'source'. What solution, then?
Well, I think at this point it's worth noting that gold memberships are significantly overvalued. Yes, you get the stipend. But for $15/month, you don't really get any significant ongoing benefit. You get a bunch of front-loaded stuff that stays if you go back to F2P (and is probably 'worth' more in Zen than your entire first month of subscription) and you get 500 Zen per month. I don't see it as being meaningful to be a gold member. If you want to buy a LTS, that's a different story; you are essentially gambling on the length of time the game will continue, because you probably get ~8000 Zen worth of stuff upfront and then 500 Zen per month for the lifetime of the game and you hope that it'll last long enough that you make the 30,000 zen equivalent back (or more).
At this point, gold membership seems vestigial. It seems to remain around for those members who were historically Gold members, but it doesn't feel like STO is encouraging it and it doesn't really fit into the F2P economy. I would not be surprised if, in the next 6-8 months, Gold membership simply goes away.
The only way I could see Gold membership working going forward is if the stipend were increased to around what it costs (say, 1400 Zen per month) and then most of its benefits moved into Veteran rewards. Rather than getting that increased bank space and everything all at once the first time you sign up for Gold, you got an extra twelve bank slots every month of Gold membership until you hit whatever Gold had been at before. That sort of thing. In this case, Gold membership is clearly not 'another class of member' so much as it is "If you're going to buy Zen anyway, let's make it worth your while to do it on a recurring basis and give you some rewards for your trouble."
Certainly, I feel like it might help take some of the sting out of people who feel double-dipped.
Cryptic/PWE should take the time to analyze the economy of EVE if they want to see a working, healthy economy.
Perfect World along with Cryptic Studios has utterly destroyed this POS game. The only people who defend it, are those who are F2P and anyone who refuses to admit that this game is completely worthless.
Cryptic Studios lied to us from the very beginning. They told us we could explore the universe, discover new worlds that are randomly generated within the universe, told us we could name the worlds that we discovered, really loaded us full of TRIBBLE. How Cryptic Studios is even still in business I will never comprehend.
Now before you go telling me I am a Cryptic basher, I just want you to know, I was one of those guys who defended this game and Cryptic Studios to all the haters out there who rage quit and so forth. Yeah, I was one of those guys who was a fanboi who defended this game no matter what. Guess what, I have woken up the the BS this game has become.
So, I log on, I play the game for awhile and I am disgusted at what this game has become. Lock Boxes? Really? You guys are actually paying them for this TRIBBLE? What a joke. You lifers are actually still here playing this game? You actually support this TRIBBLE?
Oh, it's not just Cryptic Studios, almost all MMOs have allowed themselves to destroy their games with this whole "lock box" idea. MMOs have become the complete joke of the gaming community. Thanks to companies like this "Perfect World" and sell outs like "Cryptic Studios" these games are being created from the start as F2P and lock boxes. Perfect World should be banned. How any of you could even play a game owned by Cryptic Studios I will never comprehend. I for one will never buy another product by this misleading company ever again. It makes me sick how the MMO world has become a corporate business instead of what MMOs once stood for.
These companies should be abolished. Simple as that. STO was a lie...this game is nothing like they said it would be. Nothing. Now we have Neverwinter. Another joke, another game that has Perfect World's mitts in to it. Another MMO I will not be playing because the two worst MMO companies have their hands in it, Cryptic Studios and Perfect World. What a complete joke of a name...Perfect World. Vampires is what they should have named themselves.
I hope Cryptic Studios crashes and burns...along with the money sink known as Perfect World.
Enjoy your joke of a game....really.
There is only one mode of transaction in EVE, but STO has up to three. It's not even apples and oranges ... it's like apples and rocks.
I've tried EVE and sirsitsalot said it best:
I also agree with the OP.
Humbly speaking, and I've said it elsewhere, a "free" product demands the provider receive adequate revenue to maintain the product or its service to the consumer AND ... make profit (that's the Capitalists way). Sure, STO is not perfect, but it is what we have. Every consumer has a choice to either pay into the system or not. It's that simple.
Glad you enjoy the game, guy. They need people like you to pay their bills, and I am sure they are very appreciative of your wallet.
The fact that I no longer play even though I have a Life Time Sub, and the fact that I was once a HEAVY supporter of this game, who was once in your very shoes now, defending this game against any and all who dared to speak out against it, very much makes what I say matter. I am an outraged customer...and yes, I am a customer, I payed for a Lifetime sub...for a game...that no longer exists as the game I payed for. Now, if I want the better things in this game, I have to pay even more than I already have...for lock boxes no less.
I don't mind a market, but when I have to pay for these lock boxes, that grantee nothing inside them that I was hoping to get, it's a pure rip off. This whole game has been decieving us since before launch, and they continue to rip you off even now.
No, I have every right to express my discontent with this game...after all, I have litteraly paid my dues.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Asc_VtvL64z4dHJEU1hPc2djcFphRFEyQkhmWUVDakE
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
The only issue I have with that (it's very useful, though) is that the way the economy is structured, it's not perfectly marketable. I can think of various reasons for this, but the effect is that there seems to be no perfect relationship between Zen, EC, and dilithium (which there would be in a totally open market) because Cryptic doesn't want it that way. For example, take a look at the trajectory of various Lobi-store items on the Exchange, and you'll see the exchange rate isn't static at all.
The Zen -> Lobi -> EC is either a massive devaluation, assuming 4 Lobi each lockbox, or players are obtaining an average of 16 Lobi per lockbox. The issue with the variations in EC values is because the currency is quite flexible. It shifts with supply and demand for items obtained only by Zen, Lobi, or Dilithium. Right now, you get more EC if you exchange Zen to Dilithium, buy uncommon unreplicable materials, and sell those on the exchange than if you go the lockbox key method of obtaining EC.
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
Great , awesome. Express away. Seriously. Go ahead. Make yourself feel better by bashing, raging and hating .... YEAH .... I know those things always make me feel better *rolls eyes*
Seriously, you do have the right to express.
So go ahead.
But without any actual constructive ideas brought to the table, or an attitude that invites you know actual discussion, you are nothing but a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing.
But please, go ahead and rage around about how a forum handle being taken by someone else who happened to like a pretty common respelling of raven makes PWE and cryptic the devil.
You have the right to express yourself.
And we have the right to ignore your ranting.
have a nice day
EDIT : To add what I was originally going to say.
Agree with the OP. Current model shows no real benefit in my mind to "go GOLD" as it were.
I basically see the choices as Silver with Zen Purchases or Lifetime with Stipend and shinies
I think the problem is that you seem to be (and tell me if I'm wrong) assuming that Lobi is a fully convertible currency instead of a 'reserve' currency designed to buffer Zen, which is how I think of it. From that perspective I don't find it odd at all that Lobi-> EC isn't well valued.
I'm not an economist, so I'm not sure what you mean by reserve currency, but to me Lobi is one of the sinks Cryptic uses to remove $$ from the game. You're guaranteed to get 4 Lobi with each lockbox, but you need to be averaging about 16 to come out even.
Players put time/money into the game. Cryptic benefits by removing time/money from the game, which is why there are so many currency sinks (starbases, dilithium vendors, bound items, upcoming reputation system, etc.). Lobi is similar to a currency sink, although it's more of an indirect way to reduce the value of a player's time/money than an actual removal of currency from the game.
STO Resources: <Ship Comparison - All Tiers + Small Craft + Hangar Pets> <Damage Resistance>
<R&D + Upgrade Costs> <Duty Officer Finder> <Suliban Doff Reqs> <Fleet Costs> <Rep Costs>
<Keybind Tour the Galaxy> <Fleet / Armada Management> <Currency Exchange> <Other STO Links>
Ok, now you are talking more my language.
Here is what I am most upset about. The Devs told us, that they would be adding customization to ship interiors, specifically interior decors and roaming officers. We were supposed to get a way of changing their uniforms to match that of your officers and yourself. Hasn't happened. Ship interiors are not customizable and more broken promises.
They told us that nothing would be sold in the store that could not be obtained through "gameplay." I guess their idea of this is running with the Dilitium? Not exactly what any of us had in mind. Even still, I think I could overlook that if they did not have those silly lock boxes. It's the "you might get it, you might not...oh, not to mention you spend RL monetary currency for these....or you can farm Dilithium.
The only thing I like to leave up to chance, is grinding Ops to get gear off a drop...at least I do not have to spend cash to get those drops and I do not have to farm "Dilithium" to get them either. Whatever secret treasures they have in those boxes, needs to be available for a set price elsewhere. BUt alas, even SWTOR is even stooping down to this method of gambling and psychological mind twisting addictive maneuvers to suck an individual's pockets dry.
I had such high hopes for this game. The Devs even said out right that they were working on (or had plans to) Sector Space, to bring the seams together and get rid of all the zoning, in an attempt to make space in this game feel more real, to bring it closer to what they lead us to believe that it was going to be to begin with. Obviously that was just more broken promises.
Somebody asked in another thread, is the Star Trek IP doomed? No, it just has to be done right the first time. Sandbox, wide open space, with real space 3D movements with real travel times (well, as real as it can be within reason...we all know we do not want to spend a week traveling from point A to point with some incursions/first contacts/diplomacy in between. That sadly will never be this game, the game engine would never handle that kind of game.
Sadly, Cryptic Studios (in which sold out to Perfect World) got a hold of the IP and we all fell for Jack Emmert's BS hook line and sinker.
Hopefully this was a bit more constructive. With the way I feel robbed here, I can only be so constructive without letting my anger shine through. And yes, I am one mad bro. Sorry, but never have I ever felt this deceived, mislead and robbed by an MMO company as I do now. I hope you can understand.
That's exactly what I meant; Lobi is only a 'currency' in the sense that, say, the Prototype Borg Salvage are a currency. They aren't actually convertible or tradeable to other people; they're more like tokens or scrip. By getting a lobi, you take an actual tradeable 'currency' out of the game. But because they want to give you a reason to get them, they let you trade them for other things.
Now, there's another trick to it, which is that unlike the prototype salvage, you can trade what you get from the lobi store. Which is why I say it's a 'reserve' currency used to buffer Lobi- it's not a full currency because it's not convertible or tradeable. The only reason it's meaningful at all in that sense is because the stuff you get you can sell on the exchange.
Sorry , but I can't agree w/you there .
The first 13 months had a relative stream of content that included 4 STF and 3 FE , plus small missions for the KDF .
13 months after launch , things got bad .
But I'm never likely see such a rapid and continuous explosion of carefully crafted story based content in this game again . Ever !
Instead , I'm expected to sing All Hail to 2 seasons of grind content , that basically introduced 3 buckets to fill .
No , thank you .
This is a very flawed misconception. F2P's are not mining dilithium for the sole purpose of trading it for Zen. If that were the case you'd be right and these changes would be good for F2P's but you are wrong. F2P players also have to invest into dilithium sinks if they wish to be a functioning member of a fleet, use the doff system and also enjoy the End-Game (STF's). Thus the truth is there will be less dilithium on the exchange than before, because F2P's will want to be at end game as much as anyone else as it makes up most of the content beyond the episode missions (which require no dilithium nor give out any).
F2P's are now going to be squeezed as well, many may well end up buying Zen to quicken the process though any zen they buy will be devalued as dilithium gets scarcer. F2P's are not being valued, indeed they are the most expendable and transient of all the player groups in the game. The new dilithium sinks are designed to get more F2P's to buy Zen and also to make Zen less valuable than dilithium. As you say there is no long term profit in the store if the content remains at the volume it is on the store.
Thus the result is more people buying more Zen to buy what small amount of Dilithium will be available at the exchange.
Let me put this into start perspective for you, in the past 3 hours of play time I did 4 STF's per hour, that (1100x4)x3 + another say 12,000k on top for salvage/edc turn in. That is 24,000+ for one session, in a few days time I can buy enough Zen for a Key. In the new system there will be no turn-ins of the same value and none at all for 60 days. There will be a massive shortfall in dilithium.
You're right it will drive Zen sales, or people will just stop buying Zen in protest of the obvious money grab going on. However it will not make F2P's more important and they won't feel any benefit, they will just feel forced into buy Zen.
think about this properly.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
If you misconceptualized such a fundamental part of the economy that I was describing, I really wonder how much you could have thought about it at all.
The point is, your entire rant misses the point entirely. Because Cryptic is not, as far as we know, actively propping up the exchange, all dilithium must be mined, and driving the dilithium economy so far down is actually counterproductive for them.
Cryptic doesn't want to make it hard for people to be F2P; that would break everything.
Okay let me deal with this in logical order.
What you said was;
Nowhere in your analysis did you mention that F2P's do other things, you fail to make the admission that F2P's are also customers in the Zen chain, that they also will be buying Zen and after season 7 will be buying more Zen to deal with the new Dilithium sinks. For me this omission skews your understanding of the matter.
You talk about the "economy" and yet nowhere do you discuss the cost of these changes to the Dilithium volumes of F2P's and how that will result in less dilithium on the exchange.
This is not a rant.
Clearly Cryptic want to monetize the F2P's as much as they can, they are the economic lifeblood of the micro-transaction market. It's not about making it harder it's about getting them to pay more. The point is the new dilithium sinks very simply put mean F2P's will putting less dilithium on the exchange.
Do you or do you not agree that there will be less dilithium on the exchange with F2P's now refocusing their dilithium on the new reputation system?
It also means people will be buying more Zen to convert to dilithium, thus making the dilithium more valuable against the price of Zen than it currently is.
The upshot is a 60-90 day increase in Zen sales, this slowing down once people are able to convert Marks for Zen. I can see at the moment short term profit.
The current dilithium market is excellent for F2P's they can mine a lot of dilithium just from STF's and convert in a matter of weeks to Zen. This system will cease to be in operation come Season 7, and will return in a diminished from after 60-90 days.
This doesn't make things any harder for F2P's but it does make it more expensive. Thats what the new dilithium sinks do, otherwise they have no purpose, other sinks could have been used.
#2311#2700#2316#2500
I am a pure f2p'er myself and I took personal pride in grinding a 2500 zen ship knowing that was someone elses money, my reward for even being on the server.
However if the game discriminated me, denying access to say maps or outfits or whatever I wouldn't be here.
I think that part of sto is great.
However if I turn the tables around and look at it from a cash player's perspective I have to say 200 bucks is the price of say mass effect 2 (released same year as sto) and in my mind if I pay the price of a full game I own everything in the game.
So cash people should get a lot more if you ask me.
I feel f2p'ers are getting spoiled at the expense of cash people really. Just take the new reputation system, no matter how much cash you are willing to put into or have LTS or veteran wtf ever, you still get the exact same timer I do.
On the other hand I guess you could say with the old stf's f2p'ers were also getting spoiled in that there were no cash shortcuts.
I definitely feel I got the long end of the stick and to me it seems it was setup for people who can't handle themselves, who HAS to have it, whereas the f2p'er gets spoiled like he is the more demanding customer.
And so personally I also roll with the flow, if zen do get really cheap in season 7 I might farm for those, assuming they put up some new items soon, I might not - there isn't anything I have to have and I think the biggest penalty I can serve is going in-active, no more carrying pug's through elite maps, no more selling off the exchange and I am very conscious about my worth, what I put and what I get out.
Like the rep system, it doesn't take 20 seconds to find out it's not worth it, whereas there are people who can't help themselves that HAS to have it.
If I have 500,000 dil do I want a +2.5% to stun or a new top ship ? Whereas you got cash people opening their wallets just because it's new.
I actually heard that as legit argument on a podcast "well it's new".
So what if it's new if it's garbage. If I punched you 10 different places on your body with a bat, every spot would be new but how would it make you feel, it's just crazy talk to me.