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Temporal Set Powers Need a Balance Pass
naldoran
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
The community cried foul when we saw some of the set bonuses from the lobi-store items, fearing that they'd be too good. Happily the temporal backstep got reduced in effectiveness somewhat to only seven seconds, and it's to the point where I'll admit it isn't a game-breaking ability. The Mannheim Device is terrible in PvP since, to the RP'ers delight, shooting the past copy damages the future ones, giving a quick kill against the user by targeting the past clone. On their own merits, the lobi-store weapons / consoles aren't game-breaking. I do for the record think that they're too good, especially with the console giving similar critical bonuses to the borg one, and stacking with it, and the secondary effects of the disruption device could be reduced a bit. Overall I don't have TOO many gripes with any individual item.
What is not acceptable though, are the powers granted by the set completion bonuses. Let's look at them one at a time:
1. Two-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: Buff to Chroniton Damage. Chrontion torps do so little damage that this isn't worth a second glance.
2. Three-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: AoE Slow / CD reduction & Self Acceleration. This is an extremely powerful and (to my mind) overly strong ability. Considering the ability of the Wells Class to stick on an enemy in PvP, this allows a captain to put an unclearable sub-nuke cooldown extension on an enemy. This puts a serious crimp in the healing abilities of support ships, and is equally deadly to escorts because of the unresistable movement debuffs. Considering the cooldown on this power (2 minutes, because it reduces it's own cd), it is simply too good a debuff. The degree to which it reduces your own cooldowns, particularly for powerful abilities like SNB is equally concerning. My suggestion would be to alter the power so that it ONLY affects bridge officer abilities (just like photonic officer) and to make the slow / cd extension field ineffective against players somehow.
3. Two-Piece Timship Set Bonus: There are a number of problems with the 'Time Freeze' power. Firstly, the fact that you can lock out an enemy healer without firing a shot is concerning. What's worse though are the offensive applications, since only players, instead of other entities, are frozen. Specifically, it makes tri-cobalt mines insanely good by overcoming their inherent balancing drawbacks. You fly next to someone, throw them in a tractor to hold them still relative to you for a second, drop a tricobalt mine pattern, then hit the backstep ability. They're frozen for seven seconds, and during that time, the mine pattern finishes it's dispersal, arms, and begins homing in on the target. When you're 'unfrozen', you're at zero throttle with a tricobalt mine right next to your hull. Instant death frequently follows. Albeit unblanced, the five-minute cd makes it less concerning than the three-piece bonus mentioned above.
Borticus, I appreciate that everyone is extremely busy with S7 stuff, but could you please take a minute or two and add these items to the list of things which need a balance pass when dev time is available? Thanks!
What is not acceptable though, are the powers granted by the set completion bonuses. Let's look at them one at a time:
1. Two-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: Buff to Chroniton Damage. Chrontion torps do so little damage that this isn't worth a second glance.
2. Three-Piece Lobi Set Bonus: AoE Slow / CD reduction & Self Acceleration. This is an extremely powerful and (to my mind) overly strong ability. Considering the ability of the Wells Class to stick on an enemy in PvP, this allows a captain to put an unclearable sub-nuke cooldown extension on an enemy. This puts a serious crimp in the healing abilities of support ships, and is equally deadly to escorts because of the unresistable movement debuffs. Considering the cooldown on this power (2 minutes, because it reduces it's own cd), it is simply too good a debuff. The degree to which it reduces your own cooldowns, particularly for powerful abilities like SNB is equally concerning. My suggestion would be to alter the power so that it ONLY affects bridge officer abilities (just like photonic officer) and to make the slow / cd extension field ineffective against players somehow.
3. Two-Piece Timship Set Bonus: There are a number of problems with the 'Time Freeze' power. Firstly, the fact that you can lock out an enemy healer without firing a shot is concerning. What's worse though are the offensive applications, since only players, instead of other entities, are frozen. Specifically, it makes tri-cobalt mines insanely good by overcoming their inherent balancing drawbacks. You fly next to someone, throw them in a tractor to hold them still relative to you for a second, drop a tricobalt mine pattern, then hit the backstep ability. They're frozen for seven seconds, and during that time, the mine pattern finishes it's dispersal, arms, and begins homing in on the target. When you're 'unfrozen', you're at zero throttle with a tricobalt mine right next to your hull. Instant death frequently follows. Albeit unblanced, the five-minute cd makes it less concerning than the three-piece bonus mentioned above.
Borticus, I appreciate that everyone is extremely busy with S7 stuff, but could you please take a minute or two and add these items to the list of things which need a balance pass when dev time is available? Thanks!
12th Fleet | Sad Pandas | Starfleet M.A.C.O.
Post edited by naldoran on
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2. the cool downs are very long and drawn out.
3. The temprial bubble dose hold mines.
4. An easy way to get around the 3-P warfarin set is to use APO.
5. To use this combo you have to take up 2 weapon slots, 3 if you want to use the 2-P warfarin set boost (anyone who has played for more then a day knows that chronos are used for the debuffs.
6. If you want the bubble effect you have to use a useless console. So that's 2 slots gone + 1 more slot gone I you want to use the 3-P warfair set.
So no don't need this it's already fine the way it is. Also please don't go saying something is oped when you don't even know how it works. My guess is you don't even have the set or the ship.
Get 2 set bonus on the TW set and you can run Chronitons at whoopass capacity. I'm currently using TKC, R62 and ASM together with Breen 2-set for some hard-hitting RRTTs on top of my polarons. Would do more damage if I collected a whole set of polarized disruptors.
To get out of time warp, use ICC. Save the ICC specifically for timewarp. You'd sacrifice only 1 cooldown to run for safety, and still have access to APO or EM.
Timewarp is OP, but it also gave ICC the balance pass it needed to be returned to PVP.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
Yeah, running Alhena and other PvE content needs these bonuses. It's too hard otherwise. Those evil Traelus ships with buff and resist stackings just scare me. :P
I own 1 wells time ship... 1 klink version... and 1 mobius destroyer....
The set is busted to all hell... what a complete balance destroying piece of TRIBBLE.
If you need proof that its unbalanced... I'm sure we could get a Pandas/Critz 5 man sci ship team together fore you complete with 5 sets... and end the match 15-0 with zero healing on our side... cause honestly every time you come in we'll just freeze and tric bomb you to death. lol
The most hillarious part... the sci time ship completely 100% replaces the now completely junk orb ship... you would think they would at least wait 2 or 3 lock boxes in to completely obsolete a ship... I have a couple orbs... but man if I had dished out serious coin for them and I'm sure some people did I would be livid. lol
If you sacrifice the speed burst for a Fleet Defiant, that's an APO3'd CRF2, BO2, HTY2 right in the face, that you can't run from.
Mounting all of these on the TSV has less of an 'effect', but the TD benefit from the set bonus as well, and its an escort. Give that to a tac and I'm actually scared of facing one.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
2. The cooldown on the slow field is about two minutes after it's own cd-reduction effects are considered. ANYTHING that allows for faster SNB cooldowns has severe pvp balance implications.
3. Does it alter their arm time? I don't belive so.
4. Okay, Attack Pattern Omega helps escorts get out of the field. What about all the rest of the ships?
5. You do have to take up weapons slots, and they aren't bad weapons to slot.
6. What useless console? You mean that one that gives similar +crit bonuses to the assimilated module AND a respectable turn rate buff? And it's "warfare", not "warfair" :P
I've seen it in action, I've used the time ship, I've chatted with friends who have the full set. Before folks go crying that I don't know what I'm talking about, or don't understand pvp well enough to know when something is or is not too good take a look at which fleet tag I'm flying (that purple one in my sig) and ask whether that's a fleet full of noobie pvp'ers or ones that actually understand the game.
As to the silly "I paid lots of money for it, therefore it should be super-powerful" poster; I don't give a TRIBBLE how much you paid for your shiny stuff, I want balanced pvp where particular abilities don't utterly dominate because they weren't designed with balance as a primary consideration. Very true. I'm one of those players. To be blunt, it's not players like you who I worry about when it comes to toys like this, it's what happens when someone from the Pandas or Critz gets a hold of one of those timeships, puts the lobi set on it, and uses it to the fullest potential.
@Husanak: I still fly my weaver a good bit; with two lt cmdr engineers, I can out-heal most cruisers, and the maneuverability isn't a problem for Scramble 3, the jump console takes care of sub-nuke alignment since I don't need tactical slots while running Chronitons.
If anything i find the set bonuses very underpowered. I tend to do much better in the fleet ships as opposed to the Lockbox ships and this is no exception. Instead of trying to make the wells a viable "time to get serious" ship im simply trying to have fun with it and making it as time themed as possible despite the loss of effectiveness. So its chronitons for fun. The cool downs render abilities impractical for them to be any advantage whatsoever over a Hibert cookie cutter ship. On the other hand since i have relegated it to a "for fun" ship, nerf it more if you must...
p.s. i should add im not a PVP type and only do them for fun the odd time. I do have a question for the PVP crowd. Is there no way to filter what type of ships you want to fight? Would that not solve some of theses over-powered/under-powered arguments?
As to those cooldowns; when two AAA-class pvp teams meet, it's often 2-5 minutes between kills because you have to line up all the alphas, nukes and scans to get a kill at all. On those timescales, these cooldowns are quite workable.
Nerf Pandas and Critz too!
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
Support the "Armored Unicorn" vehicle initiative today!
Thanks for Harajuku. Now let's get a real "Magical Girl" costume!
http://www.youtube.com/USSReckoning
I must plead ignorance of the PVP nuances. I suspect i was editing my last post a wee bit when you were writing yours. The most demanding flying i do is elite STFs, where im adequate at best not stellar (pun?)
The whole PVP things sounds quite sad to me if everyone must have the exact same builds to compete, if indeed that is how it is.
I would watch that. I also want to see 5 on 5 Tuffli class freighter match. Does any one do that??? Ive only done one on one with a fleet mate that wiped my rear.
Naldoran is completely right, of course, though personally I think the Lobi set makes more sense on the temporal destroyer than the temporal science vessel thanks to the DBB.
In my book the three piece lobi set is far more problematic than the two piece console set. As far as the two piece console set goes, It can be incredibly powerful, a free kill really used in the right hands, but for the most part just ends up being incredibly annoying. Neither of those are good things. That said, the duplicate console that you need for the set bonus is complete garbage. That's not good balance -- that's just ****ty game design.
Proper design principles dictate that:
Outlaw them? Disband them? Hunt them to extinction?
aka Lafamilia?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
The Temporal set + lobi set gives up a lot for a handful of gimmicks that do tie up 3 console slots, and when those gimmicks are on CD the ship is basically a weak sci ship or weak escort.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
As to the second: taking impulse speed from 21.43 to 8.91, and reducing SNB cooldown to 70 SECONDS (just did some testing for hard numbers) at the optimal recharge, allowing for a very intensive pressure sequence. This is quite simply bloody well unacceptable from a balance point of view. Doubling the recharge speed of something like this, part of the time, has profound implications. Borticus, I know you recognize the power of buff-stripping based on the work with the SNB doffs and those discussions. This is an even bigger balance concern simply due to the fact that SNB isn't a random element, but rather a controlled one that just received a massive, massive buff. Please give us some indication that you're at least aware of what a significant issue this is, and that something appropriate will be done.
EDIT: More numbers, courtesy of one of my fleeties:
As snb is a 2 minute timer, we can safely say the most times I can possibly subnuke in a 20 minute period is 10 times.
With the lobi temporal warfare set, this number changes to 13 times in a 20 minute period, with seven of these SNBs also adding the AOE CD/Flight speed and turn reduction, which with a -233% recharge SNB puts a freshly used ability like TRIBBLE Team on a 3 minute cooldown, however when the snb is cleared they remain on a 1 minute cooldown as long as the field is still in effect.
This effectively allows for (if used at CD recharge every time) a subnuke every 90s vs a subnuke every 120s.
The set alone proc can obviously be avoided by distance, but with beam target engines + torp proc + beam proc, you can effectively reduce a target traveling at 21.83 impulse to 8.93 impulse. If this is done to a healer, evasving away and leaving your team stranded should not be your "only option".
SNB Timers using Lobi set, Odd numbered timers have temporal field active
snb 1 @ 0:00
snb 2 @ 1:20
snb 3 @ 3:20
snb 4 @ 4:40
snb 5 @ 6:40
snb 6 @ 8:00
snb 7 @ 10:00
snb 8 @ 11:20
snb 9 @ 13:20
snb 10 @ 14:40
snb 11 @ 16:40
snb 12 @ 18:00
snb 13 @ 20:00
Naldoran is right on target. To a pve'er, or someone who just uses these casually in pvp they are may not seem terribly OP. But even in a mostly heal setup in my Wells ship I have put escorts from almost full shields to 1% hull. That's in a suboptimal build and not coordinating. And I'm a sci capt in a wells. Imagine if I jumped in the mobi or was a tac?
With a coordinated team build even with only 1 set on 1 ship I could probably get 3 or 4 kills every time these abilities are up. And the abilities have no counter and are unresistable. This is the problem.
Give me a team with 2 or three sets? LOLZ. We don't do it because it's unbalanced and we don't need it. But that hardly means we are unaware of it or don't know it's potential. Anytime something like this is brought up on the forums we run the risk of seeing it everywhere in the next few days but have no other way to get Bort's attention. Hopefully Bort can see and fix this soon?.
Kudos to Naldoran and the Pandas for bringing the issue up for a balance pass.
Nixus
Tell ya what lets just get rid of all player abilities all together, and bo's, and fly around just shooting, then it would be fair right?
Nerfing an Iwin button is not ruining the game. It's fixing something that in its present form can be viably exploited to ruin the game. I've blown probably 300+M on items I know will be nerfed (multiple tholian ground sets, and now this set just to test). Do you think I care that I've "wasted" ec for a better game experience? No. I personally blew 65M this morning just to test that set. Cry me a river.
The set is absolutely cheesy in terms of the fact that even after the SNB is cleared, your timers are still effected by the field, and in conjunction with the movement debuffs and power recharge penalty, in anything but an omega'd escort you are put in a situation of: Evasive over 5km away, with huge movement penalties on you, while the origin player of the field has huge movement buffs. Please tell me how a heal setup oddy/recluse will get away from this without having to basically Talon Jones across the map, leaving their team without a healer. And this is just how cheese it can be using it on a healing ship, these tactics can be modified to whatever your basically locking down every 90~ seconds and this is also ignoring the fact that you can SNB faster than anyone else is capable of.
I do not feel the movement debuffs are game breaking at all, they are actually a nice disable. When used in conjunction with the set bonus, at the expense of 1 console slot, you can literally lock someone down and semi subnuke them, both of which are unclearable. When used intelligently, this is a disgustingly unbalanced set. In my mind everything in a game which includes PvP needs an intelligently designed hard counter system. A 100% sucks for you Iwin button does more for ruining game experience than letting people run around thinking "I paid for it I should be better."
Excellent points, well said.
Although maybe I'd agree with only reducing its pvp effectiveness if there is a way to do that, letting people have their I win button in pve wouldn't be so bad, still cheesy though.
i regularly get killed by pve. i need the iwin button.
That guy complaining about a potential balancing to temporal set does need one apparently.
I don't think you understand those of us that are saying the set bonus is OP and needs to be dialed down or have a counter added... already OWN The set. It is funny... and no its not different then the decloak alpha... I was around back when I could decloak my bop and kill pretty much all but the best engi cruisers in under 5 seconds.... Cryptic has added so much healing that isn't an option anymore.... But luckily they have given me away to simply cloak you from the game for 7 seconds... have fun when you decloak and realize 4 of my tric mines have already zeroed in on your hull. LOL
The cool down decree needs to be toned down or removed... and the freeze you for 7 seconds... needs to have a proper counter added.
#1 is Boldly They Rode.
#3 is just playing too long without restarting.
The sync issues/lag I get once I get the double cursor makes it unplayable and requires restarting the client. Not everything's bound and I still use the mouse for various things, but even the keybinds go to Hell.
I can go from playing in what I would call a trance - I couldn't tell you what I was doing, I'm just doing it: fingers flying and all the rest...to playing like I'm swimming in molasses where everything's TRIBBLE.
It's kind of annoying...
Bort did manage to see it and responded:
CommanderDonatra@Capt.Sisko: ahhh is it supposed to do that?
Norvo Tigan@dontdrunkimshoot: hell ya, maybe