Bort, let's change regular dual cannons so they are actually viable

hurleybird

Borticus, something that has bugged me for a long time is the fact that dual heavy cannons are basically identical to regular dual cannons, but are a bit better because of cycle times. This has lead to an entire class of weapons that never gets used. It also looks sloppy to those in the know, and stands as a sort of testament to poor deign.

I've suggested a specific solution countless times, but it has always fallen on deaf ears. Now that we finally have what seems to be an active and responsive dev presence on the forums, I'm going to suggest it again:

Increase the firing arc on regular dual cannons, and decrease the damage. For example, you could increase the firing arc to 60 degrees, and decrease the base damage by 10% to compensate. This accomplishes a few objectives:

-A currently worthless and redundant weapons type gains a place in the game
-You help out certain cruiser builds that are a little bit too slow to make proper use of dual heavies.
-Regular duals can serve as a kind of "training wheels" for less experienced escorts in PvP, and could end up the better choice for escort vs. escort duels regardless.

If you guys don't want to introduce a new weapons type (I'm calling it new because if we're honest DCs and DHCs count as the same weapon type) then please just rid the regular dual cannons from the game and turn them all into dual heavies so people who don't know better aren't gimping themselves.

khayuung

If I had my way...

Regular DCs would have 90 degree firing arcs as opposed to 45 of the DHC, and are better suited for low-turn-rate cruisers that can mount them.

They would also have the same dps as DBBs, but benefit from cannon boff skills making them pull ahead in terms of dps compared to beams.

They also fire faster than DHCs, therefore they proc secondary effects more often. They do this within the same firing cycle as a DHC, so they do not suffer from excess power drain.

Edited for massive idiocy containment field malfunction.

husanakx

khayuung wrote: »

Regular DCs have 90 degree firing arcs as opposed to 45 of the DHC, and are better suited for low-turn-rate cruisers that can mount them.

They have the same dps as DBBs, but benefit from cannon boff skills making them pull ahead in terms of dps compared to beams.

They also fire faster than DHCs, therefore they proc secondary effects more often.

???

What are you talking about... you mean this is the way you would like them to be ?

brandonfl

khayuung wrote: »

Regular DCs have 90 degree firing arcs as opposed to 45 of the DHC, and are better suited for low-turn-rate cruisers that can mount them.

They have the same dps as DBBs, but benefit from cannon boff skills making them pull ahead in terms of dps compared to beams.

They also fire faster than DHCs, therefore they proc secondary effects more often.

I'm confused...

dontdrunkimshoot

i support this as well, you could even raise the dps on duel cannons by 10% too if there is some design limitation to introducing a new fireing arc.

here is what i think are all the limitations of DCs

1.you have to point at your target for the entire fireing cycle to deal full damage, as apposed to half the fireing cycle with DHC

2. energy returns as soon as the DHCs fire, you get your energy back sooner for your other weapons then you do with DCs fireing for their entire cycle

3. being hit with heavy DC fire gives you more time to react to the incoming damage, DHC strikes can down a shield facing and deal hull damage instantly.

4. due to the way they hog energy, they arent any better when used with glider and DEM, i was told second hand this by someone who tested and checked logs on this.

DCs are terrible basically.

khayuung

husanakx wrote: »

???

What are you talking about... you mean this is the way you would like them to be ?

brandonfl wrote: »

I'm confused...

*wakes up from groggy spell*

*rereads wiki*

*slams head into console*

Just how the $#&% did I get it completely wrong. I'm not doing any foruming after a graveyard shift, ever again.

Edited my post...

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

i support this as well, you could even raise the dps on duel cannons by 10% too if there is some design limitation to introducing a new fireing arc.

here is what i think are all the limitations of DCs

1.you have to point at your target for the entire fireing cycle to deal full damage, as apposed to half the fireing cycle with DHC

2. energy returns as soon as the DHCs fire, you get your energy back sooner for your other weapons then you do with DCs fireing for their entire cycle

3. being hit with heavy DC fire gives you more time to react to the incoming damage, DHC strikes can down a shield facing and deal hull damage instantly.

4. due to the way they hog energy, they arent any better when used with glider and DEM, i was told second hand this by someone who tested and checked logs on this.

DCs are terrible basically.

They are cheaper on the exchange... and that's about it. Even I use just DHCs and have little experience with DCs.

husanakx

That makes more sense...

Ya if they did have 90 degree arcs they would be more balanced for sure...

I think they

1) need to draw 2 less power
2) need a 90 degree arc

I think that would bring them in line.....

Another options I like

1) 135 Degree Arc....
2) 20% dmg reduction
3) allow them to be slotted on any ship like single cannons.

shimmerless

It's kinda weird that they're even an escort-exclusive weapon in the first place. The last thing you want to do is spread your burst out over a longer period of time, so why even bother?

Adding a +1 to making them open to everyone.

ssargon

Another +1 to DCs being available to all. Even if only to make some use of non-escorts' DC weapon hardpoints.

dontdrunkimshoot

single cannons need an improvement too, make them act like a single barrel DHC so they are at least distinguishable from a turret shot. they might even be a weapon an escort would consider using around a lot of other escorts then, instead of being something just the galor or excelsior might use

hurleybird

Indeed, single cannons are a bit weak. But at least they have a distinct place and aren't a completely redundant subset of another weapon type like DCs are to DHC. For single cannons, I'd say just up the damage by ~10% and see if usage patterns begin to change.

khayuung

Considering that normal cruisers can use cannons, I'd rather if DCs remained on ships can that use DCs (all KDF, some on Fed, the boxships).

I think cannons are fine. Having similar damage to a beam array, but benefiting from cannon boff skills already gives them a dps edge over normal beams. I might go for widening the firing arc just a bit, but that might kill off beam arrays completely. The balancing factor should be from the limited boff slots on the ships that may prefer the cannons, like a Regent for example.

bitemepwe

1) increase Single Cannons in firing arc to 200 degrees, make extremely fast infiring cycle and keep thier damage to same.

2) Make Dual cannons basically the cannon version of a 90 degree arc DBB. Make them fire slightly faster than DHCs.

3) Maybe, maybe increase DHCs damage by 10%.


In addition,
4) add Heavy beam arrays
6) add a CRF style BOff power for beams. A BO power for cannons.
7) bump Cruoser/Battle cruiser turnrates and adjust inertia.

khayuung

I was thinking of halving dps of all weapons across the board...

And half the HP of all mobs in the game, including elites, making it a PVP nerf.

hurleybird

khayuung wrote: »

I think cannons are fine. Having similar damage to a beam array, but benefiting from cannon boff skills already gives them a dps edge over normal beams. I might go for widening the firing arc just a bit, but that might kill off beam arrays completely.

-Single cannons only do more damage than single beams at or under 5 clicks. After that the beams win out.
-At point blank single cannons have 14.7% more DPS than beams. At max range the beams are doing an impressive 62% more damage than cannons.
-Larger arc means you can fire all eight beams on a single target.
-There are usually better skills to take on a cruiser than cannon buffs, though there may be a few exceptions.
-If they ever fix FAW ignoring [acc]....

Widening the arc of single cannons to that of single beams would probably cause a measurable shift towards their use in cruiser pilots, but that's mostly because FAW is broken. Either increasing the DPS by a small (~10%) amount or increasing the firing angle to somewhere between that of single beams and what single cannons are at now would be pretty safe.

deadspacex64

rather see a different version of dc's than modifying their damage. i use them as a proc weapon that can do as much damage as dhc's albeit without the crit severity modifier. a few builds rely on dc's either 2 or 3 of them for the faster ROF to obtain proc chances on
phased polaron builds
phased tetryon builds
tetryon builds
always considered them more of a weapon to be used when you want a higher proc chance without much loss in overall dps compared to dhc's.

would like to see heavy versions of single cannons just to match the dc/dhc as it seems somewhat odd that one was never developed. as well as heavy versions of BA's and DBB's. give players a bit more choice in choosing loadouts.

hurleybird

deadspacex64 wrote: »

a few builds rely on dc's either 2 or 3 of them for the faster ROF to obtain proc chances on
phased polaron builds
phased tetryon builds
tetryon builds

If you're gimping your DPS in order to get more polaron/tetryon/phaser procs you're doing it very wrong.

p2wsucks

deadspacex64 wrote: »

rather see a different version of dc's than modifying their damage. i use them as a proc weapon that can do as much damage as dhc's albeit without the crit severity modifier. a few builds rely on dc's either 2 or 3 of them for the faster ROF to obtain proc chances on
phased polaron builds
phased tetryon builds
tetryon builds
always considered them more of a weapon to be used when you want a higher proc chance without much loss in overall dps compared to dhc's.

would like to see heavy versions of single cannons just to match the dc/dhc as it seems somewhat odd that one was never developed. as well as heavy versions of BA's and DBB's. give players a bit more choice in choosing loadouts.

Weapons' proc is based on volley not the number of shots per volley. There's no benefit to using DCs over DHCs in this regard.

bobtheyak

Let sci ships (and maybe cruisers) equip them in their current state. The PvE carebears would probably be all for it.

dontdrunkimshoot

hurleybird wrote: »

-At point blank single cannons have 14.7% more DPS than beams. At max range the beams are doing an impressive 62% more damage than cannons.

does this even take into account that 4 single cannons are going to be parred with 4 lower damage turrets, wile 8 beams deal the same damage no mater what end of the ship they are on?

im really not sure 4S/4T even out damages 8 BAs. only if your at close range can you use CRF and generate a bit more spike then beam arrays are able too, but its crummy drawn out spike the same way it is for DCs. thats why id like singles to act like single barrel DHCs, or they need a damage buff.

deadspacex64

hurleybird wrote: »

If you're gimping your DPS in order to get more polaron/tetryon/phaser procs you're doing it very wrong.

gimp? hardly, 10% bonus to crit severity, that's it. vs power drain, shield drain, subsytem shutdown. and on the dual proc weapons? :rolleyes: evidently you are one of the ones that doesn't understand why the polaron proc was recently mofified >.> or the phaser proc.

p2wsucks wrote: »

Weapons' proc is based on volley not the number of shots per volley. There's no benefit to using DCs over DHCs in this regard.

yes there is, ROF for DC's is higher than DHC's. or to put it another way, DC's cycle faster than DHC's. all you have to do is look at DPV vs DPS to know that.

hurleybird

deadspacex64 wrote: »

gimp? hardly, 10% bonus to crit severity, that's it. vs power drain, shield drain, subsytem shutdown. and on the dual proc weapons? :rolleyes: evidently you are one of the ones that doesn't understand why the polaron proc was recently mofified >.> or the phaser proc.

Of course I know how the procs were modified. If the increased proc rate was worth losing ~10% DPS and a far less busty damage pattern then nobody in the PvP community would be using DHCs. Even with the hybrid weapons, it's not worth it. Now if you're running a glider build, that's another story entirely.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

deadspacex64

hurleybird wrote: »

Of course I know how the procs were modified. If the increased proc rate was worth losing ~10% DPS and a far less busty damage pattern then nobody in the PvP community would be using DHCs. Even with the hybrid weapons, it's not worth it. Now if you're running a glider build, that's another story entirely.

it's not 10% dps, the crit severity only counts if you crit...so it's your crit chance that determines what potential loss of dps is. for ex: on my tac's it's pure DHC, as attack pattern alpha boosts crit chance/severity, along with accuracy bleed over and weapon specialization. parsed averages out to around 12% to 15% crit rate. AP DHC's being the best option for them.

sci and eng characters that use the dual proc weapons they don't get that bonus to crit chance from APA. their only hope is through weapon specialization, accuracy bleed over, and borg console. glider build or not, -49 power and -619 all shield facings per proc is not minor. or a suddenly disabled subsystem. the one tet build i'm still running is only because i don't feel like running boldly they rode again (already ran it 20+ for my other toons)

their average crit rate for them is around 7% and only 1 build thus far is pure dc (phased polaron w/the drains outlined above), the others have 1 dhc in the mix. so overall not an extreme loss in dps.

and as to 'it's not worth it' the changes you suggest would affect PvE as well. so instead of altering the current dc's stats...better to just create a new weapon. or several. dual cannons already have a niche...just not many understand it.

hurleybird

deadspacex64 wrote: »

it's not 10% dps, the crit severity only counts if you crit...so it's your crit chance that determines what potential loss of dps is. for ex: on my tac's it's pure DHC, as attack pattern alpha boosts crit chance/severity, along with accuracy bleed over and weapon specialization. parsed averages out to around 12% to 15% crit rate. AP DHC's being the best option for them.

Where did I say anything about criticals? The only reason DHCs do more DPS than DCs is because they cycle better together and drain less weapons energy.

dontdrunkimshoot

some one needs to read my post on the first page about DC disadvantages. according to a test mav did, DCs because they drain so much more power basically do no additional glider or dem damage over DHCs. and weapon procs themselves? they arent per hit like DEM and glider, they are per cycle, no advantage to DCs here again. there is not a single redeeming quality for DCs.

deadspacex64

hurleybird wrote: »

Where did I say anything about criticals? The only reason DHCs do more DPS than DCs is because they cycle better together and drain less weapons energy.

power isn't that difficult to keep high. and basing it purely on power the dps loss is marginal. especially on an eng character.

dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »

some one needs to read my post on the first page about DC disadvantages. according to a test mav did, DCs because they drain so much more power basically do no additional glider or dem damage over DHCs. and weapon procs themselves? they arent per hit like DEM and glider, they are per cycle, no advantage to DCs here again. there is not a single redeeming quality for DCs.

wrong, weapon procs don't need power levels. dc's = more chance to proc than dhc's. and seriously, can't believe you've played the game, or anyone else who thinks there's no difference in ROF between dc's and dhc's. it's not the per hit or tiny little blobs the spew out it's per volley dc's have a higher volley rate than dhc's.

so easy to determine for yourself, look at the weapon stats DPV and DPS. dps is identical on dc's/dhc's...here's what very few are seemingly able to get. dpv on dc's are far lower than dpv on dhc's, now, if if dps is identical, and dpv on dc's are lower than dpv on dhc's what does that suggest?

i'll do it for you, dc's to achieve the same dps fire faster than dhc's because of their lower dpv. that's volleys, so no matter how you try to slice it up, into volley's or shots, dc's ROF is higher than dhc's.

the only drawback is the higher ROF causes higher power drain and less recovery between volley's (as hurleybird stated). this can however be mitigated by a single dhc and/or torp, weapons batteries, eng captain. none of which are even greatly necessary because if you were after pure damage in the first place you wouldn't be using dc's much less worrying about a proc.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

naz4

mattjohnsonva wrote: »

I run 3 SC and a DBB on my Bug (turrets rear). I sacrifice the DPS for wider arc. It means I don't have to worry about lining up and can keep my speed and hence defense very high and still hit my target. To date no other bug has beat me although there have been a few draws. A 10% dmg boost to my SC would be most acceptable lol!

Agreed with doing something about DC, they don't seem to have a niche, if you're going for a 45 deg arc you may as well have DHC. I'd go 45 deg for DHC, 90 DEG for DC and 180 DEG for SC, seems to fit nicely, adjust damage to suit.

Sounds like you need to face MT or Aythani

Agree with your last paragraph.

havam

Long overdue, .... little hope that this gets fixed. Just make all DCs DHC and be done with it.

ussultimatum

hurleybird wrote: »

Increase the firing arc on regular dual cannons, and decrease the damage. For example, you could increase the firing arc to 60 degrees, and decrease the base damage by 10% to compensate. This accomplishes a few objectives:

-A currently worthless and redundant weapons type gains a place in the game
-You help out certain cruiser builds that are a little bit too slow to make proper use of dual heavies.
-Regular duals can serve as a kind of "training wheels" for less experienced escorts in PvP, and could end up the better choice for escort vs. escort duels regardless.

I'm completely in favor of this suggestion, or even turning DCs into a 90 degree arc with similar DPS to DBBs.

hurleybird wrote: »

Now if you're running a glider build, that's another story entirely.

Does that actually hold true for Tet glider?

I haven't tested it personally, but there was a thread at one point and from another player's testing the DCs actually performed worse with Tet Glider due to Tet Glider's reliance on weapon power for performance.

I can't really speak to the accuracy of that test however.