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Escorts and Engineer Captains
ertihan
Member Posts: 0 Arc User
So I've been wondering, is there any way to make an engineer escort viable? Here's my story, for the record.
When the Jem'Hadar Attack Ships started dropping in the Gamma Quadrant Duty Officer Packs, I was lucky enough to get one. Like an idiot though, I put it on my Engineer, rather than my Tactical captain. I've been trying ever since to make this engineer bug PvP-viable, to no success.
Now in theory, I can understand why. The Engineer has no skills that help it do damage. Even the Science captain has Sensor Scan and the ever-useful Subnucleonic Beam, and of course Tactical comes with all kinds of damage boosting abilities.
Still, the Engineer captain can stay alive better than either and the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is one of if not simply the best escort in the game (at least for now), so I should be able to still deal decent damage in it, right?
Except that I don't. My Tactical's Defiant does more. My science's Mutlivector does more. I just can't get DPS out of this thing!
Build as I have it at the moment:
Phased Tetryon Dual Heavy Cannons x3, Tetryon Dual Beam Bank x1
Phased Tetryon Turrets x3
2x Borg Set (Deflector and Engines)
1x MACO Shields
Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3
Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3
Emergency Power to Shields 1, Directed Energy Modulation 1
Tractor Beam 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Emergency Power to Shields 1
5x Tetryon Tactical Consoles
1x Field Emitters
2x Neutronium, 1x Assimilated Module, 1x RCS
1x Red Matter Capacitor
20x Aux Battery
Doffs:
3x Attack Pattern Duty Officers
2x Shield Distribution Officers
And yes, I've made sure to spec into Attack Patterns, energy weapons, etc. No points in torpedo damage since I don't use torpedoes on this build.
The idea was, the Engineer was the best at managing power, thanks to their EPS captain ability. That, plus Red Matter Capacitor, meant that I could get away with dual Beam Overload 3 ... in theory.
In reality, for whatever reason, I'm just not doing much damage. Heck, my other captains in theoretically weaker ships (Defiant and Multivector) do more than this. Please help! What am I doing wrong?
When the Jem'Hadar Attack Ships started dropping in the Gamma Quadrant Duty Officer Packs, I was lucky enough to get one. Like an idiot though, I put it on my Engineer, rather than my Tactical captain. I've been trying ever since to make this engineer bug PvP-viable, to no success.
Now in theory, I can understand why. The Engineer has no skills that help it do damage. Even the Science captain has Sensor Scan and the ever-useful Subnucleonic Beam, and of course Tactical comes with all kinds of damage boosting abilities.
Still, the Engineer captain can stay alive better than either and the Jem'Hadar Attack Ship is one of if not simply the best escort in the game (at least for now), so I should be able to still deal decent damage in it, right?
Except that I don't. My Tactical's Defiant does more. My science's Mutlivector does more. I just can't get DPS out of this thing!
Build as I have it at the moment:
Phased Tetryon Dual Heavy Cannons x3, Tetryon Dual Beam Bank x1
Phased Tetryon Turrets x3
2x Borg Set (Deflector and Engines)
1x MACO Shields
Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Omega 3
Tactical Team 1, Cannon Rapid Fire 1, Beam Overload 3
Emergency Power to Shields 1, Directed Energy Modulation 1
Tractor Beam 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Emergency Power to Shields 1
5x Tetryon Tactical Consoles
1x Field Emitters
2x Neutronium, 1x Assimilated Module, 1x RCS
1x Red Matter Capacitor
20x Aux Battery
Doffs:
3x Attack Pattern Duty Officers
2x Shield Distribution Officers
And yes, I've made sure to spec into Attack Patterns, energy weapons, etc. No points in torpedo damage since I don't use torpedoes on this build.
The idea was, the Engineer was the best at managing power, thanks to their EPS captain ability. That, plus Red Matter Capacitor, meant that I could get away with dual Beam Overload 3 ... in theory.
In reality, for whatever reason, I'm just not doing much damage. Heck, my other captains in theoretically weaker ships (Defiant and Multivector) do more than this. Please help! What am I doing wrong?
Post edited by ertihan on
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@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II | APD-III
T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II
E-BO: EPTS-I | EPTW-II
E-BO: EPTS-I
S-BO: PH-I | HE-II
OR
T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II | APD-III
T-BO: TT-I | Beam Target Shields-II | CRF-II
E-BO: EPTS-I | AUX-SIF-I
E-BO: EPTS-I
S-BO: PH-I | TB-II
How I’d play this out: I would use a single beam array with [ACCx3] modifier. I’d start my attack run with only beam target shields; Rank two of this ability grants you a 30% chance to disable the targets shield altogether and if you are spending skill points to make your tetryon PROC and glider more effective, this is a no brainer move in my own opinion as flow capacitors will complement the decision to use Beam target Shields. Otherwise, the shield power drain is a moderate to weak de-buff to the targets shield resistances; and this you can use to help increase your damage. It also will rather work well with Tetryon weapons and the OMEGA Set tet glider as I’ve already mentioned.
Other than that, I don’t really know how to help you out. Some here will say having PH + HE is a bad idea because they share a cool-down together and to just dump PH for APO! True. However you kind of need to dump APO for APD even though TT will ruin your APD day. Just remember, APD has a longer uptime than TT does by five seconds!! Time it right and you can butt hurt someone who doesn’t realize this fact!
As for dumping PH. That is risky and completely your choice. I wouldn’t do it! Just stay nimble and try not to get yourself in both a tractor beam and a hazard at the same time. You will have to rely on some cross healing in this setup but you will surely deal more DPS in this setup.
That is all I got for you mate. I'm only average... but this is how I'd handle it. Also, remember, with all that extra power your AUX power will be high which will also help out that Beam Target Shields. All of this really complements well in my own opinion.
EDIT: The second build choice has some additional risk, but it is also workable.
Record a few sessions of PvP and watch it with a detached eye. What are you doing? Are you unable to get your DHCs on-target? Hard to believe with a bugship and RCS, but it could happen I guess. What kind of bonuses are you getting from your cannons? Are they [Acc] or something else? What is your energy setup, and how does it act during your alpha strike?
I agree with Aquitaine, drop the DBB for another DHC. Or, potentially try out single cannons if you are having problems staying on-target. Mk XI's are fairly inexpensive, and can give you an idea of how much of an effect the wider cone will have. CSV will also allow you to spray damage; hitting one more player will make up for the slight damage reduction.
I think I'll try out telon's build and see how things go. One thing I know for sure is that something's gotta change, because as it currently stands I've had cruisers out-damage me. That's just sad; no cruiser should ever out-DPS a bug.
I'd wait and get a bit more feedback. I'm only moderate at PVP.
The Skill Point allocation will be important in the build I presented. I'm sure you realize that however.
A tac cruiser can easily put out more dps than you, if properly built. Don't judge your performance based on dps at the end of the match since that's very misleading. A tac cruiser spamming faw can also out damage a tac escort, especially a tac kdf cruiser. There isn't too much hope for an engi to improve dps unfortunately, but since you lack the damage boost a tac has, I'd personally add a dbb front, 1 or 2bo3, a quantum torp in front, spec for torps, and hope that bo3 combo with hy torp would take a shield facing down and torps hit bar hull. Also, some beam target engines are also a viable option. If you cant do much damage at least you can debuff pretty well. I know you don't like the idea but an engi will never be able to be as successful as a tac or a sci in anything but a cruiser.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
While this may not help all Escorts, EPtW3 on a heavy escort carrier works well as an additional spike damage option.
What also works well for Engineers in Escorts is leveraging power advantages for speed. If you learn to fight at very high speed, the defense bonus from high speed can make it difficult for opponents to hit you, particularly cannon folks who you can outmanoeuvre, and combined with rotate shield frequency can make the escort a pain in the butt to kill- allowing you to focus on damage.
Engineers in Escorts can work, but you have to build your ship like an Engineer, not a Tact, to be effective.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
EPtoW gives no damage bonus unless you run beams. Beams have a different power management and when using beams, it's recommended to go over 125 power cap. For cannons there is no bonus in damage because of different than beams cannon power management. The EPtoW bonus you get while using beams is that you increase the total power available to weapons, from which cannons don't benefit. There is not a per se, damage bonus, it's a power bonus that in case of beams, due to they're drains and power management, allow you to shoot your beams at higher power (like at 125+gain from eptow) than w/o EPtoW. Eptow3 is no matter what ship you fly a waste of lt commander slot, you can always use a aux2struct, eps3, dem, aux2id with much better benefit than eptw3.
Defense bonus does not increase if you go over impulse 24, the benefit of moving fast though is that your opponents will have a hard time targeting you. What adds some damage resistance is apo, ph, aud2id and aux2struct etc. defense is though increased by evasive maneuvers and cloak.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
EPtW only gives you a 5 second damage buff, a cruel joke really.
and yes, overcaping helps cannons plenty. looking like it doesn't with 2 single cannons apparently does not apply to a full setup of 7 or 8 weapons. with EPtW1, i rarely have my weapons energy dip below 100 with 4 DHC and 4 turrets.and it drops much lower without it
That is factually wrong. There is a five second window in which your damage is increased by a percentage to base energy damage types. Sure, it is not much, but combined with other BUFF and De-Buff abilities and timed correctly, it is helpful and can be meaningful.
I wanted to add, I find the best time to use my EPTW is on the second CRF sequence. As it adds a % damage and replenishes my weapon power. You could use consumable battiers as well... but I rather use other devices.
Some changes I'd consider would be ditching one Beam overload 3 for a Cannon Rapid Fire 2(higher DPS over another shot of spike) and replacing one cannon rapid fire 1 with a Target Shields subsystem(Long recharge and can't be chased with BO unfortunately) or attack pattern Beta 1(screws with AP:O a little bit and TT cycling counters it but isn't universal). I'm stretching for those two substitutions but 2x beam overload might be the cause of all your pain. If your weapon energy is taking a 50 point hit every 15 seconds with 7 energy weapons firing or you don't use those powers till nadion inversion is up that might be the source of your woes.
If that's the case then my apologies for echodarksided. That's why npcs are using EPtoW then, lol. 5 secs from 30 secs is enough for me at least to not use it with cannons. And I won't recommend using it in an escort anyways. Ill have to look better at this cannon drain, anyways the cannon drain is not as bad as beam drain.
Dontdrunk, have you tried to see if you overcap the weapon power without epw? I'd be curious if other power gains (leech) have similar effect for cannons.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
(Preferably [acc]x3, else at least [acc]x2)
Runs best with at least 2-part Omega or 2-part Jem'Hadar.
TCOM: TT-I | APD I | APO I | CRF III
TLTCOM: TT-I | CRF I/ CSV I | CRF-II
ELT: ENG I | EPTS-II
ENS: EPTS-I
SLT: SCI I | TSS II
Gives you durability and maximizes damage potential every time.
The problem that you're having is that you're not playing to the strengths of your class.
Each class has it's own way of fighting; Tacs fight with sheer brute force, Sci's fight through utility, while Eng's fight through attrition.
The fact of the matter is that no matter how you set up your ship, as an Eng you do not have the punching power of a Tac, nor do you have the ability to get around an enemy's tactics like a Sci, the only realistic method that you have of fighting is to wear down your opponent and wait for an opening to strike hard.
To accomplish this you need to play to your strengths, and that means your ability to tank damage and manage power; this comes from your RSF and Miracle Worker for tanking and Nadeon (spelling) Inversion and EPS power for the power management.
That said, you need to have the damage output capacity ready to go when it is time to strike, so I would suggest a build like this: (note that this is trying to keep in line with the weapons that you currently have, and taking into account that you have 3 AP doffs because otherwise this build wouldn't work)
-Fore: 1xDBB, 3xDHCs
-Aft: 2xTurrets, 1xChroniton mine launcher
Boffs:
Tac
-Cmdr: TT1, BO2, CRF2, AP: Omega 3
-Lt. C: TT1, AP: Delta 1, CRF2
Eng:
-Lt: Emergency Power to Shields 1, RSP 1
-Ens: Emergency Power to Shields 1
Universal: (Sci)
-Lt:Transfer Shield Strength 1, Hazard Emitters 2
Consoles:
Eng: 1x Neutronium, 2x RCS, 1xEPS
Sci: Borg Console
Tac: 5xWhat you got already
Shields etc. (use what you already have)
Devices:
-Red Matter Capacitor
-Engine Batteries
OK so....
Like I said above, you have three of the AP doffs, otherwise this would need to be reworked because a single Attack Pattern would not be enough to support a damage build outside of a Tac officer.
Now the build is designed to play to surviving an onslaught then turning and bringing continuous pressure to your enemy until they crack. You keep the mines firing constantly to make it more difficult for them to turn and bring a forward arc to bear; always have a CRF running to keep up pressure and try to hold back your AP Omega for when you either have to get moving (i.e. you're CC'd in a tractor and about to get hard, or something along those lines) or for when you're ready to burn your target. As for the BO use, pile it on as you're able...
Now as for Nadeon and EPS transfer, use them during burn periods but DO NOT USE THEM TOGETHER, the reason being that each will boost up your power management abilities. Nadeon will reduce the power consumed by each shot, thereby making each cannon shot you fire that much more powerful, and EPS will improve your power levels in general as well as the rate at which it is restored. Use Nadeon for your main burn, and EPS for your secondary.
Defensively, always keep up your EPtS (obviously) and use your TSS and RSF to back them up one at a time as you're getting pressured (remember you have to outlast your target so use your defenses economically). Hold your RSP in reserve for when you're getting pounded and have nothing left to pop, it can and probably will save your life in tense situations. Hold off on the use of Miracle Worker until an 'oh ****' moment such as your shields being down and you getting roasted or when you're about to die in general (try not to panic and waste it, easier said and done depending on your experience level).
For your devices, I switched out your Aux batteries for Engine batteries simply as an escape measure. If you find yourself needing to heal pretty badly then adjust your presets to allow you to enter a defensive state with all power removed from your weapons and put into your Engines and Aux systems, that way if you find yourself in a 5 on 1 then you don't need to sit and die, you can just hit Evasive Maneuvers and an Engine Battery and be flying like a bat out of hell.
Anyway, that's the basics, hope this helps you
Support a KDF equivalent to the Vesta Here
as far as i can tell, power is just power regardless of were its from. without leach and eptw i will drain down to 70 through contents firing. with leach and eptw cycling i might see below 100 for just a split second wile rapid fireing. may not be very scientific, but its good enough to convince me to do it. and EPtW proboly isnt best on an escort. on one character that i swap between ktinga and somraw i have eptw1 and epts1, because im also using damage control doffs and can have full up time with them. im sure i could be using more useful doffs, but i can swap back and forth as is without messing with any of my station powers or active roster.
Ok then, thanks again! So the mith is busted, I thought that eptw add a "different" power (more clean and steady) than leech that has tendency to change its bonus depending on how long you fire. It has sense to be this way though, even though going through the amount of things that work one day and don't next day, you can never be too sure.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Seriously stop it! I find myself agreeing with you on way too many posts, lately? what happened?? Did i just loose it, or did you mellow?
a history of sto pvp: 2010 - 2011
a history of sto pvp: 2012 - 2013
Maybe you've just become more snarky and jaded?
But really, I think a lot of us just don't care about this game the way we used to. Less emotions to go around. I'm still pretty fiery on the MWO forums though.
My favorite combination is an Engineer in a tactical escort retrofit, built for burst damage and durability. It may not be optimal for PvP, but I definitely pull my own weight in STFs and fleet defense missions.
No sweat, EPtW3 isn't a very widely used skill because in reality, there are very few ships with a LCDR Engineering BO that are considered escort class. With that said, +25% damage for 5 seconds can be very useful when stacked, particularly for a decloak alpha BO3 from a science officer who also hits with damage buffs and resist debuffs. As far as I know it is still one of the few super quick kill stacks still in the game for PvP.
To the OP.
I pretty much endorse everything my old friend Sivar said. Speed/power is life for Engineer escorts in PvP, because high resist/defense is basically the only way to compensate for being incapable of dealing damage at rates Tact/Sci players can in Escorts. If you can't spike burst damage, you will be dead before your opponent, so be steady but make sure you can also spike hard effectively.
Escorts hit hard, but under constant pressure any Tac in an escort can be worn down.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
Lol echo, no sweat for me at all. I guess it all depends on tactics at some point. For hit and run, yea, it may be very useful, I agree, but IMO that's not something very useful in a 5 vs 5. Personal preference maybe, again, not to say you're not correct.
Still, decloaking alpha on a sci captain?
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I know, I know...
I'm not really in a fleet where we have premades though, so when you live a PUGs life you have to make it interesting somehow, and being very unconventional is usually the only way to catch the other team offguard when you Pug.
Which really goes back to the original post... want to learn how to play an Engineer in an Escort? Then pug alot. Most escorts without heals are dirtnap bait, so when you figure out how to tank your escort while actually killing someone else you'll have figured out the Eng/Escort thing. The key is experiment a lot, because everytime someone claims they have seen it all in PvP, something new becomes the new fad.
Rules of Acquisition at Priority One
I'm mostly a puger myself, and lots of the comments on the pvp forum sometimes go contradicting pug opinions vs premade opinions, where, in fact, both are valid from their own point of view. Agree, most premade build escorts don't hold their own very well in pugs, mostly due to team being selfish and not healing and also due to the unpredictable nature of the pug. Many pugs are 3-4 escorts plus a sci/cruiser vs 3-4 cruisers and an escort. And 4 cruiser team still doesn't heal eachother, lol.
That's why cryptic should start by making some walkthrough where pveer fights some tougher npcs that cycle abilities and use tt. Something similar with the mission they made for bortie and ody. But we all know that's not going to happen...
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...