The Lakota had significant of work in its upgrading, it had Quantum torpedoes that were certainly not standard and its had its phasers upgraded (and in typical DS9 fashion from what to what we are not told).
And yes its not visible ... no **** since it was the USS Excelsior model after it was changed to be the Enterprise-B, it was even supposed to look like the "normal" Excelsior but Generations movie changed the model so they got stuck with the Enterprise-B model, when it was sold it still had the Lakota name and registry number.[
im just going to disregard all the TRIBBLE that has nothing to do with anything, and focus on the excelsior vs akira.
it doesn't mater how upgraded the lakota was, its not going to be able to beat a cruiser that is larger then it, brand new, and built with everything and more that the lakota was upgraded to have.
the lakota wasn't even upgraded enough to have a single exterior detail changed on it, it didn't even have phaser arrays. obrian remarking that it had a lot of firepower for an excelsior class hardly means its a heavy hitter compared to anything else. i seriously doubt any excelsior in the 2360s was operating with the same firepower it did when it was launched, even the least upgraded example probably has twice the firepower of the original
the lakota is about 15 times larger then the defient, theres your david and goliath. a tiny new ship built only to battle is a match for an 80 year old general purpose workhouse thats 15 times larger then it, thats still commendable.
an akira that has the same level of tech as a defient, hilariously more torpedo firepower, an array that can hit as hard as a 2 or 3 shot quad cannon burst, and the fact that its almost 23 times larger then the defiant, means the defiant is completely out of its league.
So, even though your original premise was that a larger ship is always more powerful than a smaller ship, as soon as this is shown to be false, you conveinently want to disregard it now and ONLY want to apply it to the Defiant. Interesting, but not surprising.
So, even though your original premise was that a larger ship is always more powerful than a smaller ship, as soon as this is shown to be false, you conveinently want to disregard it now and ONLY want to apply it to the Defiant. Interesting, but not surprising.
the defiant is an apple, the lakota is an orange. the akira is also an orange, and the larger orange wins.
actually, the akira is a bit of an apple too, a much bigger apple.
everyone knows the defient has tactical capacity outside its weight class, it is weapons and a warp core. that hardly means its the most powerful. ships that are general purpose though, the biggest is going to be the strongest every time, unless theres like a 50 year difference in class age.
citation needed. its phasers were more powerful, and it had advanced torpedo ammunition loaded, anything beyond that is fanwank.
the lakota was the enterprise b model, before that it was the original excelsior model. they tacked on bits to it so they could damage something without damaging the core model itself in generations. they didn't bother tacking on anything new to the model for the lakota's showing, they certainly could have if they wanted to make the thing look significantly tougher.
an excelsior brought as close to modern spec as possible is still a ship with up to 80 year old bones. an entirely new constriction of similar size will always be better then an updated old design. in this case they arent even of similar size, the akira has almost 1.5 times more volume then an excelcior
in a thread on a now dead forum there were attempt to calculate how powerful some of the best shots of a galaxy class were and compare them to how powerful the defiant's pulse cannons were. i cant remember details, but the closest thing to a conclusion was that 4 to 5 seconds worth of constant cannon fire was about as powerful as a galaxy's best shot. judging by the length of the akira's largest array, i just threw in a ball park number based on what i could remember. go a head and disregard that bit if you wish, it changed nothing.
I would really like to see those calculations because they clearly don't match what we saw on screen. In "The Jem'Haddar" there is no evidence that the USS Odessey was able to destroy even one Jemhaddar ship, even with the help of two runabouts, as opposed to the Defiant who routinely destroyed Jem'Haddar ship.
In ST: Generations, the Ent-D fired on the BOP and couldn't penetrate their shields (since one of the Klingon bridge clearly states that "Our shields are holding". Compare this to the Defiant's similar encounter with a BOP in "The Way of The Warrior. The Defiant faced off against a BOP and fired an initial three volley spread. The first two volleys missed, but the third one not only punched through the BOP shields, but also caused significant structural damage. The next volleys completely vaporized the BOF. The Ent-D wasn't able to perform those feats.
In "Shattered Mirror", a Defiant class vessel was able to destroy a BOP in seconds and defeat a Neg'Var class vessel. Again, when did the Ent-D perform in the same manner?
In "Tears of The Prophets" it appeared that an Akira took more of a pounding than the Excelsiors of the Galaxies.
You throw the term "volume" around as if it is an absolute term. All "volume" is not the same if one ship has "wasted space" in the form of arboretums, schools, theaters, ship stores, zoos, etc., and another ship that either uses it's space for extra weapons/defenses (Valdore) or eliminates that space altogether and receives the benefit of additional maneuverability (Defiant)
the defiant is an apple, the lakota is an orange. the akira is also an orange, and the larger orange wins.
actually, the akira is a bit of an apple too, a much bigger apple.
everyone knows the defient has tactical capacity outside its weight class, it is weapons and a warp core. that hardly means its the most powerful. ships that are general purpose though, the biggest is going to be the strongest every time, unless theres like a 50 year difference in class age.
Really? Because looking at the Akira's performance on screen, it actually seems to be below the capability of an Excelsior class ship, at least as far as survivability.
In Star Trek: First Contact, both the Defiant and an Akira were hit moments apart by the same Borg beam. Guess which one survived and which one went "ka-boom"? (Hint: The Defiant survived).
In "Tears of The Prophet" another two Akiras went "ka-boom" due to the orbital weapons platforms, while the Defiant survived all of hits from the battering that it received. Even the Galaxy class ships survived, and the one Excelsior class that was badly hit, appeared to still have most of its hull intact, as opposed to the vaporized Akiras. So why are these "older" (Excelsior and Galaxy) or "less volumous" (Defiant) ships surviving, when the "newer, more volumous" ship (Akira) is going "ka-boom"?
The only other time that I've seen an Akira in battle was in Voyager, where it still didn't distinguish itself from any other ship. So basically, as far as canon is concerned, you really have nothing but your own speculation to back up your claims regarding your assertion of the Akira's abilities.
It doesn't matter what the designer wanted it to be. It only matters as to what it is in canon - and in canon it's a secondary ship.
I get that it's your favorite ship but a dozen appearances of an Akira does not make it more important to Star Trek, or more iconic, then the Defiant. I don't even like the Defiant but I understand that it's use in DS9 and it's designation as a "warship" has to mean something.
Shouldn't you be dry cleaning your replica RL uniform or something? Grow up its a game.
Production Base: ASDB Integration Facility, Antares Fleet Yards, Antares IV.
■ Type: Heavy Cruiser.
■ Accommodation: 500 officers and crew; 4,500 personnel evacuation limit.
■ Power Plant: One 1,500 plus Cochrane warp core feeding two nacelles; one impulse system.
■ Dimensions: Length, 464.43 meters; beam, 316.67 meters; height, 87.43 meters.
■ Mass: 3,055,000 metric tonnes.
■ Performance: Warp 9.8 for 12 hours.
■ Armament: Six type-10 phaser emitters; two photon torpedo launchers.
From the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual
A quote from the designer Alex Jeager:
"Set nestled between the catamaran split secondary hulls the bridge is nicely protected. Just on either side of the bridge in a notch on top of the secondary hulls are the shield generators. This further protects the command unit of the ship since one of its duties is launching smaller craft, communication protection is a must. At the back of the bridge there are emissary docking hatches and just below that the circular hatch is the captain's lifeboat. The rear view at the back of the saucer is the main shuttle bay and shuttle control center. This area is also well protected tucked down between the hulls and below the weapons pod flanked by the Nacelles. This serves as a safe haven for the smaller craft in a fire fight and a calm entry point. Also in this protected center region are most of the sensor arrays for the transporters and communications with the remainder of the sensors atop the weapons pod. Moving forward the notch in the front of the saucer is the forward launch bay doors(3). This is for the fast exit of small craft into battle. There are extra shield generators on either side of this notch as this would be a target for enemy ships. Surrounding most of the saucer section is the phaser array strip. Also on the saucer there are flanking torpedo launchers. At the rear of the saucer are the impulse engines. Underneath is the deflector dish, 2 flanking phaser arrays and a forward facing torpedo launcher. You'll also notice that the Akira class utilizes the escape pods from the Sovereign Class, but the panel details more like the Galaxy class. That's because I imagined this ship was commissioned right before the "E" and served as a testbed for the new escape pods. At the rear is the weapon's pod with spreads of both photon and quantum torpedo launchers. And of course the warp nacelles. This overall design makes for a much more narrow side profile and a more friendly crew environment as the engineering folks are no longer in 'the bowels' of the ship Also the crew get a better view of their own ship as the split hull allows for more windows and a view of the bridge, something that's not very common in the previous ship designs."[2]
none of that is Canon, thanks for playing
all we see of the Akira class is in First Contact and possibly in some of the battle sequences from DS9. there is as states above no reference to what the ship is. for all we know it's a one off of the centaur class. historically (in canon) the single saucer with no secondary engineering hull is a "light" cruiser / frigate design.
an akira that has the same level of tech as a defient, hilariously more torpedo firepower, an array that can hit as hard as a 2 or 3 shot quad cannon burst, and the fact that its almost 23 times larger then the defiant, means the defiant is completely out of its league.
except that this enitre diatribe has no basis in canon. it's just wishful thinking
except that this enitre diatribe has no basis in canon. it's just wishful thinking
the ships were built at the same time, the akira really is 23 times larger then the defiant, has a phaser array longer then the sovereign's longest, and it has between 15 and 21 torpedo launchers viable on the canon filming model. these are facts, they cannot be denied.
...and you think theirs any doubt the akira is the superior ship? your fan boy is showing. the only thing the defiant is best at is having the most tactical ability per unit of size. but its a very small ship, it doesn't have many units of size.
all those scenes from the dominan war prove that any ship that is not the hero ship of the show is killed in 1 hit, even twice as huge as everything else D'deridex warbirds. theres no way to gauge much from those fights other then ships explode when they get hit, except the defiant.
the ships were built at the same time, the akira really is 23 times larger then the defiant, has a phaser array longer then the sovereign's longest, and it has between 15 and 21 torpedo launchers viable on the canon filming model. these are facts, they cannot be denied.
...and you think theirs any doubt the akira is the superior ship? your fan boy is showing. the only thing the defiant is best at is having the most tactical ability per unit of size. but its a very small ship, it doesn't have many units of size.
all those scenes from the dominan war prove that any ship that is not the hero ship of the show is killed in 1 hit, even twice as huge as everything else D'deridex warbirds. theres no way to gauge much from those fights other then ships explode when they get hit, except the defiant.
whose fanboi is showing? 23 time the size of Defiant would make an akira larger than a galaxy nowhere on film does an akira appear to be 23 times the size of a defiant. you say those are torpedo ports. maybe they are ports for launching probes. they are never used on film so any theory on what the are for is speculation, NOT CANON. you cry "it's not canon" when ever someone says something about anything that denigrates your lust for the akira. i get it. you like that ship. but everything you call "fact" has no basis in canon and that is all that matters in the discussion. personally I think the tier 4 cruiser should be the ambassador. i really like the ship, but I don't go around saying how much better it is over a galaxy class
the ships were built at the same time, the akira really is 23 times larger then the defiant, has a phaser array longer then the sovereign's longest, and it has between 15 and 21 torpedo launchers viable on the canon filming model. these are facts, they cannot be denied.
...and you think theirs any doubt the akira is the superior ship? your fan boy is showing. the only thing the defiant is best at is having the most tactical ability per unit of size. but its a very small ship, it doesn't have many units of size.
all those scenes from the dominan war prove that any ship that is not the hero ship of the show is killed in 1 hit, even twice as huge as everything else D'deridex warbirds. theres no way to gauge much from those fights other then ships explode when they get hit, except the defiant.
Wow! Really? Ok, I think that I see the gist of your arguments now:
1) "Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters
2) "Non-Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
3) "Speculation" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
4) "Apples and Oranges" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
5) "Logic" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
6) "STO Ships and Stats" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
7) "Everything" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
Everyone, this debate is going absolutely nowhere. This guy's logic is all over the map. He appears to be so fixated on the Akira he seems to be adopting a "Are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes approach".
It would at least be more honest if he just came out and said that no matter what anyone says, he will NEVER consider their opinon. But instead, he presents arguments that completely lack any consistency or coherence.
Thankfully, the people in charge of STO have wisely choosen to disregard such nonsense and present the ship closer to what was seen on screen, or at least closer that this guy would have had them do.
whose fanboi is showing? 23 time the size of Defiant would make an akira larger than a galaxy nowhere on film does an akira appear to be 23 times the size of a defiant. you say those are torpedo ports. maybe they are ports for launching probes. they are never used on film so any theory on what the are for is speculation, NOT CANON. you cry "it's not canon" when ever someone says something about anything that denigrates your lust for the akira. i get it. you like that ship. but everything you call "fact" has no basis in canon and that is all that matters in the discussion. personally I think the tier 4 cruiser should be the ambassador. i really like the ship, but I don't go around saying how much better it is over a galaxy class
denying that the akira has that many torpedo launchers is laughable. launchers that were seen firing torpedoes in canon are scattered all over the ship, there are 15 easily identifiable. unless even though they look exactly the same, they have some different purpose. probe launchers? thats the most pathetic excuse ive heard a defiant fan boy come up with yet.
and i have 0 lust for the akira over the defiant. im being objective here with the cold hard numbers, your off on some white knight defense of your favorite ship.
Wow! Really? Ok, I think that I see the gist of your arguments now:
1) "Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters
2) "Non-Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
3) "Speculation" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
4) "Apples and Oranges" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
5) "Logic" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
6) "STO Ships and Stats" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
7) "Everything" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
Everyone, this debate is going absolutely nowhere. This guy's logic is all over the map. He appears to be so fixated on the Akira he seems to be adopting a "Are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes approach".
It would at least be more honest if he just came out and said that no matter what anyone says, he will NEVER consider their opinon. But instead, he presents arguments that completely lack any consistency or coherence.
Thankfully, the people in charge of STO have wisely choosen to disregard such nonsense and present the ship closer to what was seen on screen, or at least closer that this guy would have had them do.
get a load of this guy. in those ds9 battles every type of ship on the screen ether flew from 1 side to the other, of blew up when hit once. except the defiant, if it was lost with all hands the show would end right there. how useful is this to gauge anything?
you dont think there is a difference between a general purpose exploration cruiser and a small ship with nothing but tactical capacity built into it, so much so that you could refer to one as an apple and the other an orange when comparing them?
i have posted numbers time and time again in arguments like this, all i get in return is a broad brush trying to paint everything as opinion. well guess what, there is next to no solid information on any of this stuff, and most of it contradicts itself. i look to the published numbers to try to gauge were things would stand in a vacuum, and judge them accordingly. the only thing most people are capable of believing is that the ship that gets the most screen time, that has become their favorite, is the best and are willing to entertain no examination calling that into question.
denying that the akira has that many torpedo launchers is laughable. launchers that were seen firing torpedoes in canon are scattered all over the ship, there are 15 easily identifiable. unless even though they look exactly the same, they have some different purpose. probe launchers? thats the most pathetic excuse ive heard a defiant fan boy come up with yet.
and i have 0 lust for the akira over the defiant. im being objective here with the cold hard numbers, your off on some white knight defense of your favorite ship.
get a load of this guy. in those ds9 battles every type of ship on the screen ether flew from 1 side to the other, of blew up when hit once. except the defiant, if it was lost with all hands the show would end right there. how useful is this to gauge anything?
you dont think there is a difference between a general purpose exploration cruiser and a small ship with nothing but tactical capacity built into it, so much so that you could refer to one as an apple and the other an orange when comparing them?
i have posted numbers time and time again in arguments like this, all i get in return is a broad brush trying to paint everything as opinion. well guess what, there is next to no solid information on any of this stuff, and most of it contradicts itself. i look to the published numbers to try to gauge were things would stand in a vacuum, and judge them accordingly. the only thing most people are capable of believing is that the ship that gets the most screen time, that has become their favorite, is the best and are willing to entertain no examination calling that into question.
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
Trying to appeal to this guy's sense of logic is a complete waste of time. He appears to have spent hours, if not days, trying to search for the ONE website that somewhat shares his ideas, although even they didn't give support to his assertions of the Akira's battle prowess.
As I stated before and as he has just confirmed, non-canon sources are only relevant when HE says that they are relevant. So, no matter what Defiant related or Star Trek related sites that you provide, he will clearly dismiss them out of hand.
You have seen him dismiss things appearing onscreen that don't conform to his beliefs. His recent tact, talking about the "hero ships" was quite telling. By his logic, everything that we have seen regarding the Defiant should be dismissed because it it a "hero ship". But wouldn't that same logic apply to TOS and TNG as well? So according to him, being a "hero ship" invalidates everything that ship has done.
When you are dealing with these types of arguments, you will never be able to get any consistency.
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
a high quality mesh for every ship on the list was loaded into a 3d model program, scaled 1:1, and the volumes were determined by raytraceing or volume calculating plugins.
doubling a cube's dimensions increases its volume eight-fold, theres no reason not to believe those numbers are accurate. though im quite sure what ever i post you will simply dismiss no mater what, wile posting nothing to actually counter it.
Trying to appeal to this guy's sense of logic is a complete waste of time. He appears to have spent hours, if not days, trying to search for the ONE website that somewhat shares his ideas, although even they didn't give support to his assertions of the Akira's battle prowess.
As I stated before and as he has just confirmed, non-canon sources are only relevant when HE says that they are relevant. So, no matter what Defiant related or Star Trek related sites that you provide, he will clearly dismiss them out of hand.
You have seen him dismiss things appearing onscreen that don't conform to his beliefs. His recent tact, talking about the "hero ships" was quite telling. By his logic, everything that we have seen regarding the Defiant should be dismissed because it it a "hero ship". But wouldn't that same logic apply to TOS and TNG as well? So according to him, being a "hero ship" invalidates everything that ship has done.
When you are dealing with these types of arguments, you will never be able to get any consistency.
took me about a minute to go through my bookmarks, and divide one volume by the other. the only thing that takes days is arguing with people like you.
what impressive feats has the defiant performed? killing bug ships and bops? well, they were both considerably smaller ships, and always easily popable.
it killed a breen ship or 2 after long cannon bursts or several quantum torps, disabled some cardi ships, shot up the mirror negvar for several minutes wile it was too close for the neg'var to even hit it, got chased around by a vorcha, was literally harmless to a dominion battleship, and could only fight an old excelsior class to a draw.
its pretty clear the defiant is at least a match for most ships about 15 times its size in a strait fight, but there are a lot of ships larger then that. without all this on screen data, who would rate such a small ship so highly? it shows time and time again that it is that powerful though.
compared to that you have only seen an akira shoot torpedoes at a borg ship, get blown up by a borg ship, get escorted by 2 defiants, as if it were the superior ship of the 3, and get blowup gloriously in fleet battles during the dominion war.
thats not a lot to go on. what can looking at the cgi model tell us? well, the very long phaser array, longer then the sovereigns longest even. 15 torpedo launchers all ether seen fireing or a launcher that was identical was seen fireing
so we have a pretty clear view of its stats, and a lack of any focused air time of it doing anything but exploding. you would have us believe that the defiant, a ship the fraction of the size and the same age, could beat this new, large, armed to the teeth heavy cruiser? would you have us beleave this clearly heavily tactically focused brand new heavy cruiser is vastly tactically underpowered, and that even an old excelsior could probably beat it?
Comments
So, even though your original premise was that a larger ship is always more powerful than a smaller ship, as soon as this is shown to be false, you conveinently want to disregard it now and ONLY want to apply it to the Defiant. Interesting, but not surprising.
the defiant is an apple, the lakota is an orange. the akira is also an orange, and the larger orange wins.
actually, the akira is a bit of an apple too, a much bigger apple.
everyone knows the defient has tactical capacity outside its weight class, it is weapons and a warp core. that hardly means its the most powerful. ships that are general purpose though, the biggest is going to be the strongest every time, unless theres like a 50 year difference in class age.
I would really like to see those calculations because they clearly don't match what we saw on screen. In "The Jem'Haddar" there is no evidence that the USS Odessey was able to destroy even one Jemhaddar ship, even with the help of two runabouts, as opposed to the Defiant who routinely destroyed Jem'Haddar ship.
In ST: Generations, the Ent-D fired on the BOP and couldn't penetrate their shields (since one of the Klingon bridge clearly states that "Our shields are holding". Compare this to the Defiant's similar encounter with a BOP in "The Way of The Warrior. The Defiant faced off against a BOP and fired an initial three volley spread. The first two volleys missed, but the third one not only punched through the BOP shields, but also caused significant structural damage. The next volleys completely vaporized the BOF. The Ent-D wasn't able to perform those feats.
In "Shattered Mirror", a Defiant class vessel was able to destroy a BOP in seconds and defeat a Neg'Var class vessel. Again, when did the Ent-D perform in the same manner?
In "Tears of The Prophets" it appeared that an Akira took more of a pounding than the Excelsiors of the Galaxies.
You throw the term "volume" around as if it is an absolute term. All "volume" is not the same if one ship has "wasted space" in the form of arboretums, schools, theaters, ship stores, zoos, etc., and another ship that either uses it's space for extra weapons/defenses (Valdore) or eliminates that space altogether and receives the benefit of additional maneuverability (Defiant)
Really? Because looking at the Akira's performance on screen, it actually seems to be below the capability of an Excelsior class ship, at least as far as survivability.
In Star Trek: First Contact, both the Defiant and an Akira were hit moments apart by the same Borg beam. Guess which one survived and which one went "ka-boom"? (Hint: The Defiant survived).
In "Tears of The Prophet" another two Akiras went "ka-boom" due to the orbital weapons platforms, while the Defiant survived all of hits from the battering that it received. Even the Galaxy class ships survived, and the one Excelsior class that was badly hit, appeared to still have most of its hull intact, as opposed to the vaporized Akiras. So why are these "older" (Excelsior and Galaxy) or "less volumous" (Defiant) ships surviving, when the "newer, more volumous" ship (Akira) is going "ka-boom"?
The only other time that I've seen an Akira in battle was in Voyager, where it still didn't distinguish itself from any other ship. So basically, as far as canon is concerned, you really have nothing but your own speculation to back up your claims regarding your assertion of the Akira's abilities.
Shouldn't you be dry cleaning your replica RL uniform or something? Grow up its a game.
none of that is Canon, thanks for playing
all we see of the Akira class is in First Contact and possibly in some of the battle sequences from DS9. there is as states above no reference to what the ship is. for all we know it's a one off of the centaur class. historically (in canon) the single saucer with no secondary engineering hull is a "light" cruiser / frigate design.
except that this enitre diatribe has no basis in canon. it's just wishful thinking
the ships were built at the same time, the akira really is 23 times larger then the defiant, has a phaser array longer then the sovereign's longest, and it has between 15 and 21 torpedo launchers viable on the canon filming model. these are facts, they cannot be denied.
...and you think theirs any doubt the akira is the superior ship? your fan boy is showing. the only thing the defiant is best at is having the most tactical ability per unit of size. but its a very small ship, it doesn't have many units of size.
all those scenes from the dominan war prove that any ship that is not the hero ship of the show is killed in 1 hit, even twice as huge as everything else D'deridex warbirds. theres no way to gauge much from those fights other then ships explode when they get hit, except the defiant.
whose fanboi is showing? 23 time the size of Defiant would make an akira larger than a galaxy nowhere on film does an akira appear to be 23 times the size of a defiant. you say those are torpedo ports. maybe they are ports for launching probes. they are never used on film so any theory on what the are for is speculation, NOT CANON. you cry "it's not canon" when ever someone says something about anything that denigrates your lust for the akira. i get it. you like that ship. but everything you call "fact" has no basis in canon and that is all that matters in the discussion. personally I think the tier 4 cruiser should be the ambassador. i really like the ship, but I don't go around saying how much better it is over a galaxy class
Wow! Really? Ok, I think that I see the gist of your arguments now:
1) "Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters
2) "Non-Canon" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
3) "Speculation" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
4) "Apples and Oranges" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
5) "Logic" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
6) "STO Ships and Stats" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
7) "Everything" only matters when YOU say that it matters.
Everyone, this debate is going absolutely nowhere. This guy's logic is all over the map. He appears to be so fixated on the Akira he seems to be adopting a "Are you going to believe me or your lyin' eyes approach".
It would at least be more honest if he just came out and said that no matter what anyone says, he will NEVER consider their opinon. But instead, he presents arguments that completely lack any consistency or coherence.
Thankfully, the people in charge of STO have wisely choosen to disregard such nonsense and present the ship closer to what was seen on screen, or at least closer that this guy would have had them do.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html
Akira volume- 1,407,821m?
Defiant volume- 61,724m?
= 22.8 times larger
galaxy volume- 5,820,983m?
=94.3 times larger
oh yes, theres that big of a difference.
denying that the akira has that many torpedo launchers is laughable. launchers that were seen firing torpedoes in canon are scattered all over the ship, there are 15 easily identifiable. unless even though they look exactly the same, they have some different purpose. probe launchers? thats the most pathetic excuse ive heard a defiant fan boy come up with yet.
and i have 0 lust for the akira over the defiant. im being objective here with the cold hard numbers, your off on some white knight defense of your favorite ship.
get a load of this guy. in those ds9 battles every type of ship on the screen ether flew from 1 side to the other, of blew up when hit once. except the defiant, if it was lost with all hands the show would end right there. how useful is this to gauge anything?
you dont think there is a difference between a general purpose exploration cruiser and a small ship with nothing but tactical capacity built into it, so much so that you could refer to one as an apple and the other an orange when comparing them?
i have posted numbers time and time again in arguments like this, all i get in return is a broad brush trying to paint everything as opinion. well guess what, there is next to no solid information on any of this stuff, and most of it contradicts itself. i look to the published numbers to try to gauge were things would stand in a vacuum, and judge them accordingly. the only thing most people are capable of believing is that the ship that gets the most screen time, that has become their favorite, is the best and are willing to entertain no examination calling that into question.
so if I make a website that says the Defiant is 4x larger than the akira it makes it "hard cold facts?" really, a star wars vs star trek website? THAT's your source?
Trying to appeal to this guy's sense of logic is a complete waste of time. He appears to have spent hours, if not days, trying to search for the ONE website that somewhat shares his ideas, although even they didn't give support to his assertions of the Akira's battle prowess.
As I stated before and as he has just confirmed, non-canon sources are only relevant when HE says that they are relevant. So, no matter what Defiant related or Star Trek related sites that you provide, he will clearly dismiss them out of hand.
You have seen him dismiss things appearing onscreen that don't conform to his beliefs. His recent tact, talking about the "hero ships" was quite telling. By his logic, everything that we have seen regarding the Defiant should be dismissed because it it a "hero ship". But wouldn't that same logic apply to TOS and TNG as well? So according to him, being a "hero ship" invalidates everything that ship has done.
When you are dealing with these types of arguments, you will never be able to get any consistency.
a high quality mesh for every ship on the list was loaded into a 3d model program, scaled 1:1, and the volumes were determined by raytraceing or volume calculating plugins.
doubling a cube's dimensions increases its volume eight-fold, theres no reason not to believe those numbers are accurate. though im quite sure what ever i post you will simply dismiss no mater what, wile posting nothing to actually counter it.
took me about a minute to go through my bookmarks, and divide one volume by the other. the only thing that takes days is arguing with people like you.
what impressive feats has the defiant performed? killing bug ships and bops? well, they were both considerably smaller ships, and always easily popable.
it killed a breen ship or 2 after long cannon bursts or several quantum torps, disabled some cardi ships, shot up the mirror negvar for several minutes wile it was too close for the neg'var to even hit it, got chased around by a vorcha, was literally harmless to a dominion battleship, and could only fight an old excelsior class to a draw.
its pretty clear the defiant is at least a match for most ships about 15 times its size in a strait fight, but there are a lot of ships larger then that. without all this on screen data, who would rate such a small ship so highly? it shows time and time again that it is that powerful though.
compared to that you have only seen an akira shoot torpedoes at a borg ship, get blown up by a borg ship, get escorted by 2 defiants, as if it were the superior ship of the 3, and get blowup gloriously in fleet battles during the dominion war.
thats not a lot to go on. what can looking at the cgi model tell us? well, the very long phaser array, longer then the sovereigns longest even. 15 torpedo launchers all ether seen fireing or a launcher that was identical was seen fireing
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e315/xaerostrike/Star%20Trek%20Akira%20Class/akira_topTorpedoTubeLocations.jpg
the dimensions of the ship based on common components with the sovereign class here
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/akira-size.htm
the volume of the ship with the same 440m length the previous link concluded was its actual length
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html
so we have a pretty clear view of its stats, and a lack of any focused air time of it doing anything but exploding. you would have us believe that the defiant, a ship the fraction of the size and the same age, could beat this new, large, armed to the teeth heavy cruiser? would you have us beleave this clearly heavily tactically focused brand new heavy cruiser is vastly tactically underpowered, and that even an old excelsior could probably beat it?
well guys, thats your logic.
USS WARRIOR NCC 1720 Commanding Officer
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