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Hidden magic?
dassemsto
Member Posts: 792 Arc User
Having enjoyed PvP in STO for 900+ days, I think I have a certain "feel" for the game. I can tell if the escort shooting at me is doing a good job or not. If some ability gets borked in a patch, I can usually konw something is wrong by a "gut feeling".
In the past, I've mostly chosen to ignore these feeling, writing them off as results of my playstyle, but as some of them have started to become permanent, with regard to certain ship types, I feel it necessary to air my thoughts, and see if anyone else has similar experience.
My main point today is ship survivability. Starting with cruisers, I have noticed that in my Bortas Tactical I can survive just about anything! Even when flown by a tac captain! I've tried a similar setup in an excelsior, and it folds like a paper plane! Compared to all other cruisers I've flown, the Bortas seem to be extremely resilient, beyond what it's stats suggest.
On the other end of the scale, we have the Gal-X (and to some degree all the Gal ships). This ship, I just can't seem to get to work at all. I also notice in matches how easily the Gal-X folds. Even if I run it just like any other Cruiser, it just doesn't seem to work. Compared to a Star/Assault cruiser, my survivability seems for some reason to be far worse in a Galaxy class.
Third on my list, is the JHAS (the bug). For some reason, this ship feels a lot more resilient than other escorts. Even if you set it up with similar boffs. (please don't turn this into a bug=op thread, that's not my point here)
Does anyone else share the feeling that there's something fishy about these or other ships? Like some hidden stats? Or is it just me?
In the past, I've mostly chosen to ignore these feeling, writing them off as results of my playstyle, but as some of them have started to become permanent, with regard to certain ship types, I feel it necessary to air my thoughts, and see if anyone else has similar experience.
My main point today is ship survivability. Starting with cruisers, I have noticed that in my Bortas Tactical I can survive just about anything! Even when flown by a tac captain! I've tried a similar setup in an excelsior, and it folds like a paper plane! Compared to all other cruisers I've flown, the Bortas seem to be extremely resilient, beyond what it's stats suggest.
On the other end of the scale, we have the Gal-X (and to some degree all the Gal ships). This ship, I just can't seem to get to work at all. I also notice in matches how easily the Gal-X folds. Even if I run it just like any other Cruiser, it just doesn't seem to work. Compared to a Star/Assault cruiser, my survivability seems for some reason to be far worse in a Galaxy class.
Third on my list, is the JHAS (the bug). For some reason, this ship feels a lot more resilient than other escorts. Even if you set it up with similar boffs. (please don't turn this into a bug=op thread, that's not my point here)
Does anyone else share the feeling that there's something fishy about these or other ships? Like some hidden stats? Or is it just me?
Post edited by dassemsto on
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The Excelsior is a tactical cruiser. It has more tac options and higher turnrate at the expense of a smaller crew and hull(?)
The Galaxy class are simply outdated and outmatched with all the new C-store ships and lockbox ships. The G-X and especially the G-R could use some love.
The Jem Bug is extremely versatile with the highest turnrate, comparable shields and hull and a 5th Tac console slot that makes it the ultimate escort and quite OP in comptetent hands.
I fly a Tactical Escort Retrofit and very frequently spar with friends of mine who fly it, and noticed that they survived longer than I'd expect for a ship with only one shield capacity console. Out of curiosity, I modified my escort to focus more on hull resists and ship defense value, and my own survival was improved as well.
Another factor that needs to be considered is duty officers. A federation escort tends to play with Projectile Weapons Officers simply because their BOFF layout (specifically the third tactical ensign ability) demands a torpedo launcher on board the ship (or that ship will waste the ability slot). While it isn't necessary to do so, the federation escorts encourage more of a "glass cannon" style of play, where as the Jem'Hadar ship will allow for a full cannon build without wasted BOFF slots, and thus can utilize more defensive DOFF assignments.
As for the Galaxy-X, it's hard for me to say having never played one, but I do agree with your assessment. Part of me suspects that it plays into the fact that it isn't considered a very solid ship to begin with, so the people flying it in PvP may not be the most adept at defending themselves. However, logic would suggest that at least one or two very hard to kill Gal-X's are out there, and I've never seen one. While some are very good healers, the consensus is that if you see one as a healer, it's the one you target.
In several matches against teams with double cruiser heals, where one of those healers was a Gal-X and the other was not, the Gal-X was the target every time and was able to be dropped (even when the other healer may have been significantly less effective).
It's hard to tell if this is just the distinction given to Gal-X's, or if there is some unnoticed, underconsidered stat that makes it worse than it's cruiser counterparts.
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Bug-wise, the only ship that I see coming close to its setup is the fleet patrol, but that doesn't have 5 tac consoles, less impulse mod and turn is only 16. I yet have to try a fleet patrol with 2 turn consoles and see if it comes close to the bug with 1 turn. And especially in a dog fight, turn and speed can be the difference in going to respawn or not. Those 2 I think are the best attributes a bug has.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Galaxy retrofit, while it can be a fine ship in an Engineer's hands (Like nearly any ship) it still fails to provide the same support that it's Klingon cousin, the Negh'Var can provide.
The Galaxy-X Dreadnaught also has the same issues. While it can have the same firepower capibilities as the Vor'cha-retrofit, and cloaking capibilities, it does not have the turn rate of either the Assault cruiser, or anything close to the Vor'cha Retrofit. (Not to be confused with the Fleet Tor'khat retrofit)
The Jem'hadar Attack ship definitely is the Premire Escort for any side of the game. Provided you had the luck, or have the Energy Credits to earn one. It's got a Patrol escort's durability with a Bird of Prey's Turn rate and speed. Even more so.
Another ship I agree has some wierd qurks is the Fleet Tor'khat. For a Battle Cruiser, it almost feels probobly how people feel in the Jem'hadar Attack ship when you compare it to another battle cruiser. Like Mavario keep saying, and I keep agreeing with, it is more Escort then Cruiser. And performs better as an Escort.
I also have a sneaking suspicion that the Fleet Science Vessel Retrofit is going to fit into this same catagory of more powerful then it's stats appear.
Think about this:
American Football has been in open beta for 144 years. ~Kotaku
This is why the Gal X Blows Chunks and why the other cruisers feel better.
Given that you probably do so much more damage in a Bortas'qu than in a Dreadnought, it may seem that subjectively, you last longer relative to those you fire upon.
Toi'Va, Ti'vath, Toivia, Ty'Vris, Tia Vex, Toi'Virth: Add Tier 6 KDF Carrier and Raider.
Tae'Va, T'Vaya, To'Var, Tevra, T'Vira, To'Vrak: Give us Asylums for Romulans.
Don't make ARC mandatory! Keep it optional only!
I think I kind of know where your coming from. Though i've not played PVP for anything like as long as you - it does ring a bell.
Me thinks it's psychological. The Bortas looks like a heavy TRIBBLE. It's huge! It's so big that it can force other ships to be pulled in front of it with a console and then blasted by a massive disruptor blast with another console. It's so big that, like the Oddy - pieces of it actually fall off it and fly around killing **** too. In your mind when you warp in with said ship you KNOW it's a great ship for your play style and thus you instinctively play better and pull out all the stops to win a fight or tank longer etc.
When I'm in PVP and I see a Gal or in particular a Gal-X, I instinctively chase after it - I'm not saying it's a bad ship. But the vast majority of the people who fly it are rubbish and I can kill them. Part of that is because the ship is so much bigger then my little scort, the ratio is laughable! But I know once I crack the shields as I have done in the past, the soft chewy hull is all mine. So even if the pilot happens to be really good - i'll keep on him just because of my expectations.
The BUG, and probably the other lockbox ships are alittle special. That's the whole point of them, when you fly one you KNOW not many others in-game are as well simply due to it's rarity. IMO this is like a passive buff as well. I'm far from the best escort flyers - If somebody better then me is using an "inferior" escort to my BUG then there's still a good chance I'll blow up. But it doesn't stop me seeing one and thinking "My turnrate can kick your turnrates TRIBBLE... I'm gonna stick a piece of that "So Last week" **** on the wall of my starbase office and make it a light conversation piece at social gatherings..."
My two pence - it's all in your head
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
I've been running under this assumtion a long time now, just wanted to see if anyone else noticed it.
And to clarify: I'm talking about ships with about equal stats, but experiencing great differences in survival.
That's a true statement. Since damage output in bortie is far better than dread.
I think regulus is right, it all in our heads, lol, and also toiva's point is correct, boff layout for bortie allows far better flexibility in both damage and/or tanking.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
I actually use the Gal-X with my Fed Tac.( :rolleyes: I know).
But I actually did pretty good with it. But almost all of the Gal-X's I fight against seem to pop pretty fast these days. I'm not sure how much of that is due to the Ship itself, & how much is due to users inexperience. When you see a Galol-X launching Boarding Parties 3 & spreading warp plasma 1 with no enemies closer than 9k from it, you can fairly safely assume that ship is gonna blow up easy.
As its been said many times, impressive is the pilot not the ship, lol. And welcome back!
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Went to try out a Goomba on kdf side and dropped my jemmy, and man i suck in it. PErhaps it was simply becuz i was just trying it out, the javelin was great, but overall the ship sucked. But then i figured out that somehow there were 2 factors involved for some reason my weapons just stopped firing every time, nothing that could be explained by a bug, never found out what it was, but went back to jemmy with the same weapons, no problem.
Another thing i found out was in siege mode the bonus defense drops by -10 as well. At least 1 thing explained, it was more sqsuishy like a cruiser :P
but yeh i sometimes feel that magic with some things which i cannot explain with stats etc.
But thats what i do. i chnk logs in my head, and how it feels in practice, i only very seldom chnk the real data because its often not better.
Even if the movement of ships in this game is quite simplistic, there is still a certain factor involved with being used to a ship or not, etc. u make the wrong predictions in turning, etc. bending, whatever. speed. etc.
That's where you lost me....
Lag Industries STO/TOR Guild
Its as much fact as fantasy.
R.I.P
"Hidden Magic?"
@Aquitaine985
Lag Industries STO PvP Fleet - Executive
A Sad Panda of Industrial calibre.
2010: This is Cryptic PvP. Please hold the line, your call is very important to us...
Thank you! It's good to be back. It's also good to see so many of my friends still playing.
my excelsior is proboly the most durable ship i fly, and i also main a F ktinga and F vorcha. i get steep opposition when i use my excelsior against klinks every time, that i usually fly as. but those klink users that also fly feds too, with the superior fed ships, are the most dangerous when you run into them every once and a wile. thats all my feelings at least.
As for the two Flag-Ship cruisers: These two are DESIGNED to be the biggest baddest ships in the fleet and they do not really let down their users. A Command Odyssey with the right gear and an Engineer captain can survive nearly ANYTHING. They are a serious cut above any of their competition in terms of stats and abilities so it should come as no surprise they dominate them.
The Galaxy class by contrast lacks the same levels of armor while having horrible turn rate and speed making it more flimsy. I own the Token given Retrofit Exploration Cruiser and despite losing a lot of tank by Saucer Separating the increase in speed makes me able to survive around 40% better than with my Saucer on. I know it seems counter-intuitive but in the end more speed is superior to more hull in many cases.
The Excelsior is a great ship but it is meant a bit more for dealing damage than receiving it. It can outlast a lot of weaker ships like most escorts but it is not going to be the hulking monster of a tank the Flagships are. Those are the Kings of the Cruiser/Warship line.
Lol, why lost? He said few posts after yours that's all psychological. That's why I said he's right since ships with similar stats can't be totally different and it's just "the feel" one has, not necessary justified.
Hear! Daughters too.
The blood of battle washes clean.
The Warrior brave and true.
We fight, we love, and then we kill...
Had to enter/add that... :P
Yeah, that's right.
Also, what I'm talking about is not how one ship is bad compared to a completely different ship, but how ships that are compareable in stats can have so big a difference in survivability.
Like the GalX compared to a AC or SC.
Btw: What IS the impulse modifier on the Bug, and how does it compare to a Defiant, AE or Patrol? I know the turnrate is better, but that doesn't affect defence bonus.
Base Impulse Modifier for the Bug is .22
For the AE, Defiant and Patrol it's .20
I can tank as well as my cruiser and with the bonus speed and turn rate I can out manouver a lot of ships in the game. The lt cmd tac boff slot gives it a real punch with added fire power.
CRUISERS NEED A 206% HULL BUFF