But Taco, lot's of well argued KDF discussions never even get looked at. "Added to list of Feedback", is something of a clich? now, and might come across as lazy, buuuut, it is better than nothing. The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the oil first. It's sad, but true.
From my experience, I would say yes and no. Depends on the thread.
For instance, multiple people being frustrated over a nerf or imbalance would surely not be something that's going to be ignored. The larger the population, the most likely actions would be taken.
Right now, a good example is players being frustrated at Lower Tiers in Fleet Mark Events. Them dragging people down and wasting their time. So would you ignore those whining about that? Or you think about adjusting the system to improve things?
As for civil discussion, again it depends on the thread. For instance, people wanting competitor's or fanmade ships being added to STO. Even kept civil, you're likely to ignore that because you know it's not going to happen since it's going to cost the company money and time with legal hurdles if having to pursue that design.
But Taco, lot's of well argued KDF discussions never even get looked at. "Added to list of Feedback", is something of a clich? now, and might come across as lazy, buuuut, it is better than nothing. The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the oil first. It's sad, but true.
we have a right voice dislike the way a nerf turned out like gate nerf
reduce hull strength or remove console slots we have a right to do that
there is a much need in KDF episodes because It can be a pain for a newcomer to STO to level up a KDF
I think all they need now is 4 to 5 episodes should helpg get you through much quicker
But Taco, lot's of well argued KDF discussions never even get looked at. "Added to list of Feedback", is something of a clich? now, and might come across as lazy, buuuut, it is better than nothing. The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the oil first. It's sad, but true.
How do you know they don't get looked at? Just because something doesn't get implemented, or doesn't get implemented in the poster's desired timeframe, doesn't mean it wasn't looked at, discussed, or even planned.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
No, that's not it.
And to avoid misunderstandings in this regard: I've been here since Jan 2010 and I must say I've seen a lot of strange stuff in terms of communication and lack therof.
I'd like to give an anecdotal example to explain what I mean.
Early in the released game, Klingon tricorders were not working at all in Klingon exploration missions.
And I mean literally not at all.
So were were running through foggy nightmaps trying to destroy dark Borg devices that looked very much like local flora.
The tricorders were useless and the devices became only targettable at a few meters.
After literally months of people writing tickets and writing about it on the forums we got a response from Stormshade.
It was basically that they'd never heard about this problem until then.
Tickets, threads, they'D never heard about it.
I'll just leave it at that and only say I heard a loud noise when my jaw collided with my desk when I read that.
This is one of several examples I've seen.
And even though I realize this is incredibly difficult to confirm since the old forums are "archived" I hope you take my word this is not something I just came up with.
We feel ignored because of experiences like this and because there is rarely if ever feedback in the sense of "we've seen it, keep it up".
That would already give us the feeling we're not ignored.
Even if the end result will not change it would be a hughe change in atmosphere on the forums.
Right now it feels, at least to me, like this:
If it's whining the post gets ignored.
If it's about KDF, the tread is ignored altogether.
And that's sad even if my perception is wrong.
How do you know they don't get looked at? Just because something doesn't get implemented, or doesn't get implemented in the poster's desired timeframe, doesn't mean it wasn't looked at, discussed, or even planned.
^ This.
Part of the problem is that a number of forum posters believe they represent some sort of majority.
People who whine on a forum to me are in fact a major deviation from the norm and therefore should never be taken seriously. Just like any whiner you meet in real life.
How do you know they don't get looked at? Just because something doesn't get implemented, or doesn't get implemented in the poster's desired timeframe, doesn't mean it wasn't looked at, discussed, or even planned.
And the same can be said from our perspective as players as well.
While major issues will surely get a Dev response, other issues will not. So those threads they are interested in, without somekind of acknowledgement, players think the team doesn't care. Like mentioned above with the Klingon Tricorders, sometimes the only way to get Cryptic's attention is to literally kick and scream. Others like PvPers did the same in trying to get attention drawn to PvP issues.
Honestly, only way I figure to solve that is if the Dev Team uses the Star System this forum programing uses that reflects the teams interest with a thread. Saying "hey we arn't going to comment on this, but we are reading and taking notes."
If players know that an issue is being reviewed, surely there would be less frustration over the issue in them knowing its not being ignored.
How do you know they don't get looked at? Just because something doesn't get implemented, or doesn't get implemented in the poster's desired timeframe, doesn't mean it wasn't looked at, discussed, or even planned.
How do you know they do? Not being sarcastic, but the obvious answer is you dont. The only posts we actually know are looked at are the ones commented on, whether they be whining, constructive, or anything else.
The sad truth is, if we as players mattered, something positive would have been done by now. I only wish I could vote with my wallet, as was suggested above. A lot of those that left and felt slighted by Cryptic and PWE were lifetime members, so there is no money lost there.
The sad truth is, if we as players mattered, something positive would have been done by now. I only wish I could vote with my wallet, as was suggested above. A lot of those that left and felt slighted by Cryptic and PWE were lifetime members, so there is no money lost there.
Plenty of positive things have been done in this game's history. They may not be the specific things we have wanted, but there is no doubt there have been many improvements.
The sad truth is, if we as players mattered, something positive would have been done by now. I only wish I could vote with my wallet, as was suggested above. A lot of those that left and felt slighted by Cryptic and PWE were lifetime members, so there is no money lost there.
You matter. But you don't matter more than all other players, and all the mattering in the world doesn't change the economics of a situation.
I don't know any business that doesn't want to make all their customers happy. The trick is being able to do so and still survive as a business.
Plenty of positive things have been done in this game's history. They may not be the specific things we have wanted, but there is no doubt there have been many improvements.
Even though I probably appear to be a negative poster in this thread, I'll drink to that.:)
Plenty of positive things have been done in this game's history. They may not be the specific things we have wanted, but there is no doubt there have been many improvements.
Agreed.
However, there are things that have been wanted since launch (expanded pvp, expanded kdf), yet they have instead chosen to focus their time on other things.
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
How do you know they do? Not being sarcastic, but the obvious answer is you dont. The only posts we actually know are looked at are the ones commented on, whether they be whining, constructive, or anything else.
I don't know that they do; but I'm not the one claiming to know what's happening with them on the back end.
Even in the "famous" example being touted, nobody involved knows what happened on the back end. Consider these possibilities:
1) Lots of people opened tickets and gave forum feedback. Somebody triaged improperly and the info never got to Cryptic. Stormshade sees a big forum furor and says "we never knew this; I'll inform the right people". Goes and informs right people. Right people say "thanks, Stormshade; we'll get right on fixing that!"
2) Lots of people opened tickets and gave forum feedback. It all went to the devs. Devs were aware, but fix was non-trivial and got triaged to "when somebody has time". Stormshade informs devs. Devs say "yeah, Stormshade, we know; but thanks for passing it along."
3) Hardly anybody opened tickets, those who did opened GM tickets instead of bug reports that didn't get properly forwarded, bug reports didn't contain sufficient information or were unclearly written and devs didn't understand the issue. Issue didn't occur on internal testing shards for some obscure code reason. Stormshade told devs, who found an answer in two minutes, but it required changing an area of code that was frozen until some other large body of work was completed.
In ANY of those cases, we might very well have heard the same words from Stormshade on the front end, and nothing on the back end. So to assume one of them is what happened, and from there conclude that "whining" worked, is fallacious. On the other hand, you've got devs telling you that whining annoys them and makes them uninclined to continue reading. In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, why disbelieve them?
Personally I think a lot of things don't get fixed because people post them in this forum instead of the ones the related devs are reading. Not all the devs who read the forums post; I'd venture that the majority who read them don't post. Plus, I don't know if the Community folks still do this, but once upon a time it was part of their job to consolidate feedback from the Feedback forums and present it to the devs. There's a LOT of feedback; they're more likely to see it if it's in the area for the specific devs with whom they expect to meet.
For example, if you're about to meet with the folks who do the UI, which are you more likely to look at; threads in the "Controls and Interface Feedback" forum, or posts in random other forums that have scrolled off the front page due to high traffic? What about posts in the wrong forum and that are threadjacks of posts on unrelated subjects?
Anyway, the only person in this entire discussion who actually *KNOWS* what goes on behind the scenes says the OP is wrong. The burden of proof therefore lies upon those saying tacofangs is incorrect, because they're the ones making the extraordinary claim. I don't know what happens behind the scenes (other than the one bit of info above that was gleaned from a Cryptic person in IRC long ago), but (barring that) I don't claim to. If anybody else claims to, they ought to be asked to show their evidence.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Anyway, the only person in this entire discussion who actually *KNOWS* what goes on behind the scenes says the OP is wrong.
And when Cryptic was being sold by Atari they told us everything was fine and dandy and that normal development would continue. But then we had the content drought, and only after the fact did they admit how bad things really were. So you are right; only they know what really goes on behind the scenes. But as the past has proven, they are obligated to say whatever paints the picture in the most positive light. At some point after that they may tell us otherwise.
Respecting the dev's work, the problem with kdf is the lack of a visible response to player's viewpoint.
Every kdf player see each month new ships and a lot of FED stuff around... But KDF faction really get some good things, like the bortasqu' ship, Ferasan race and the AV suit and other small things in the C-store or Lobi Store. I can't deny this point.
But we have this big problem for every kdf player: We really miss something more substantial content. Some kdf-unique content like episodes or more uniform packs may decrease this bad feeling.
KDF player really miss something more touchable, usable, accessible and visible to buy and to play. you can pay 700 zen for an AV uniform to your kdf toon, or unlock a joined trill or ferasan race, but after months of space with each new kdf product, we see 2, 4 or more things to FED toons.
Is hard to "vote" with your wallets because the lack of options to kdf toons. Lockboxes keys? Duty Cadre? ships of lower tier?
With real respect with devs, with all work they have to do, the publisher can make a event to turn the best foundry adventures in official kdf episodes. Just adapt, change and improve some points to become more cool and awesome. You see adventures with multiple foundry episodes can make a great official game episode.
With all due respect, whining does not work. It is annoying, and is more likely to get you ignored.
Well reasoned, civil discussions, are a much better way.
And if you really feel we aren't listening, vote with your wallet, and tell us why (in the above mentioned, civil, polite format)
I've done exactly this.
I'm waiting on the Ambassador Class, and on "more Canonical" content, ie: costumes relating to the series and movies, ships from the movies and series, better quality "Star Trek" content (a prettier, more detailled and accurate movie-era Constitution would get my to buy Zen just to get it). I'm not a huge fan of the "Cryptic Trek" starships and uniforms nor of the "son of someone in the series" that I'm always running into that you guys tend to squeeze in to every nook and cranny to try and justify calling it Star Trek Online.
That said, I did like a few of those items, but I'd much prefer to have an Ambassador, than a Bellerophon.
I recently bought the TNG uniform pack... even though I'll probably rarely wear it myself, simply because I want to encourage Cryptic to remember that regardless of the age and year this game is set in, the reason we are here and playing, and subscribing to the game, is because it is "STAR TREK" online. And whenever you put out canon content that unlocks for any character I might create in the future, I'll probably pick it up eventually. (almost certainly when it's a costume pack, or an interior).
eh, sad but true.
i know you are not responsible for many of cryptics descisions dude- if you were, they would have made some better descisions.
though, honestly, if civil discussion worked, we would have a full blown kdf by now, not a half-baked mini faction.
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Well you are about 50% right... Whining will get you ignored unless your whining opens up a money making operation within the game That's only reason I'm not ignored completely rofl
Well you are about 50% right... Whining will get you ignored unless your whining opens up a money making operation within the game That's only reason I'm not ignored completely rofl
ROFL, sadly, but hilariously, true dude !
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Whining works when the Community Mod can see enough of it and see through the flak to tell it's important enough to "add to the list of feedback".
Otherwise game companies hate whining because it adds up to Negative PR which they don't want to spread. It translates into less sales because negativity does and will make people play and buy less.
That is why Tacofangs comes on here to joke around and make people happy. And why the other mods quickly move negative stuff to other, less visited sections of the forums. Or delete it altogether.
All adds up to marketing, control and $$$ despite the reasoning behind some whining is 100% valid.
Whining works when the Community Mod can see enough of it and see through the flak to tell it's important enough to "add to the list of feedback".
Otherwise game companies hate whining because it adds up to Negative PR which they don't want to spread. It translates into less sales because negativity does and will make people play and buy less.
That is why Tacofangs comes on here to joke around and make people happy. And why the other mods quickly move negative stuff to other, less visited sections of the forums. Or delete it altogether.
All adds up to marketing, control and $$$ despite the reasoning behind some whining is 100% valid.
Translation: whining works.
When in doubt, (hehe) c4!
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Translation of Translation: Yes, some of it does if/when it becomes valid, actionable complaints. The rest is moderated out or ignored for marketing reasons.
Oh its so true somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 of the consoles between the federation and the KDF in the c-store were basically gift wrapped by the few of us in the KDF community back when it was extremely small... which I have noticed it has grown ALOT in the last 6 months.
Pretty much though is they ignored us completely, then we gave these ideas and then all of a sudden they started talking to us and then they said in podcasts we do not know how we are going to get these console ideas to work but we might have them one day...
PWE came along and then they got the tech to make them work... Pretty much once I unveil my latest idea they will love me again. Pretty much is PWE likes gambling and I'm not against it as long as people like me without money to gamble with can still play. Pretty much I am not sure why they couldn't think of this on their own but if they opened up Melee Matches on Andoria and Qo'nos... Something on the slippery ice for feds and battles in the warriors circle on Qo'nos where people can get things from gambling on players in the matches and then players get special melee weapons for their faction and special melee kits for doing so and bam you got your self another money sink for company to make real money.
Pretty much I don't really have much to whine about these days other than the KDF ship line that we got screwed on... As long as equal time goes into each faction. They still need to come up with a solution to why the biased system gives the federation faction a discount where as KDF who is always short changed has to pay full price. It's like you did not pay enough money for what you bought already you need to pay some more to make up for the lack of population thats all your fault because you make the game... we don't!
Internet boycotts and whining never works and the reason is.
CCP would like a word with you about that. need I point out the monocle incident? its not the first time a company crossed the line and the players said no more.
accusing someone of 'whining' is nothing more than a buzzword designed to shut people up and ridicule them. no different than screaming 'racist' or 'anti-semite' in many situations in which neither are true.
the point is, if your argument relies on calling someone a 'whiner' then you have no argument of any kind. you just want to shut them up
companies that do not listen to their customers and who antagonize their customers will lose their customers. that is not 'rage quitting' that is not 'whining' that is a fact
Dstahl used to do a lot of things before he left Cryptic. He generally doesn't do them any more. Heck, he's only had 9 posts on this new forum in the 3 months it's been active
he was probably told to keep his mouth shut, after certain past incidents
Again, what happen before has no bearing on what's happening now
thats a blatant lie
I don't care what he did in November of 2011. I care about what he's doing and saying now.
what a person does in the past directly influences what they will do in the future. especially when it comes to behavior. the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. thats a fact. what you are actually saying is 'shut up and forget we were lied to, misled, bs'd and treated badly, because that was months ago and we don't want people finding out what really happened'
Whining threads are the boy crying wolf. You come running at first but after awhile you simply ignore the kid and get on with your life - and if the wolf comes, he comes
again, there is no whining, there are no whiners. and if you want to get into that discussion and talk about 'crying wolf' how about we talk about cryptic actually doing what they say they will do? claims of content? claims of missions that don't exist? I don't think you want to get into that conversation
But Taco, lot's of well argued KDF discussions never even get looked at. "Added to list of Feedback", is something of a clich? now, and might come across as lazy, buuuut, it is better than nothing. The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the oil first. It's sad, but true.
correct. being civil means nothing in terms of whether anyone will actually pay attention to a word you say. 'be quiet, don't make waves, trust us' yeah we all know how those situations end
How do you know they don't get looked at? Just because something doesn't get implemented, or doesn't get implemented in the poster's desired timeframe, doesn't mean it wasn't looked at, discussed, or even planned
because the response, if there even is any is exactly the same every time. when a person does that its lip service. nothing more. notice nothing ever comes of it? by the same token, how do you know they ARE being looked at? you are describing circular logic
People who whine on a forum to me are in fact a major deviation from the norm and therefore should never be taken seriously. Just like any whiner you meet in real life.
and you just proved my point about buzz words. you're trying to shut people up and nothing more
And when Cryptic was being sold by Atari they told us everything was fine and dandy and that normal development would continue. But then we had the content drought, and only after the fact did they admit how bad things really were. So you are right; only they know what really goes on behind the scenes. But as the past has proven, they are obligated to say whatever paints the picture in the most positive light. At some point after that they may tell us otherwise.
in other words they lied to us and were shady about it and may admit they are lying to us again right now, in the future? yeah, thats reassuring
It is interesting how those with a different opinion to a post accuse someone of "whining."
That is essentially trying to silence a person for their opinion. As for the "something positive" I mentioned before, to me it means PWE don't understand the spirit of Star Trek at all and are running off in a different direction regardless of what is said.
The illusion of listening is there, possibly because before PWE took over we were listened to; to an extent.
I've been considering actually sending a letter to them in writing to explain why the community is so annoyed here and there. The trouble with these companies is they honestly think they know better than their players. We're all people, and all our opinions count. I just don't like people trying to shoot mine down because they don't agree with them.
With all due respect, whining does not work. It is annoying, and is more likely to get you ignored.
Well reasoned, civil discussions, are a much better way.
And if you really feel we aren't listening, vote with your wallet, and tell us why (in the above mentioned, civil, polite format)
Civil discussions on forums are a myth.
... and unfortunately voting with your wallet does not work as well, for a few reasons.
1. (When it is a minority) The company does not care and ignores the problem, even if it is a major issue like a camera bug (making the game unplayable for some people). After S6 hit, the "camera change to free" bug took over a month to get fixed, and is still not completely fixed.
2. (When the majority agrees) The company stops making profit and shuts down the game. This does not help anyone.
A smart game company tries to find a middle ground. Assign a small team of devs to make a list of issues and fix them in order of priority over time.
Another major MMO went from a policy of ignoring the issues to actively hunting and fixing them about a year ago, and it has been clear skies since then. They then went even further and took a player idea about using "time dilation" to fix lag issues in large fights, and implemented it. It was a major change to their game, but proved to be worth every second they put into it.
Just acknowledgement of an issue is enough in many cases, it can be as simple as leaving a post in the topic saying "we are aware of the issue and it has been added to the list of required fixes". Ignoring issues because you feel they are a whine is never a smart answer, and just lead to topic repetition, unhappy players, and bad publicity in the end.
In short, companies have 2 options.
1. Ignore the players and have player discontent build up until the game collapses.
(or)
2. Let the players take a somewhat active role in what changes are made. (or at the very least, acknowledge the issues and add them to a TODO/TO-CONSIDER list)
Just my 2ec.
>>>UniqueOne-Providing you with easy PVP kills since Feb 2012<<<
Comments
But Taco, lot's of well argued KDF discussions never even get looked at. "Added to list of Feedback", is something of a clich? now, and might come across as lazy, buuuut, it is better than nothing. The wheel that squeaks the loudest gets the oil first. It's sad, but true.
From my experience, I would say yes and no. Depends on the thread.
For instance, multiple people being frustrated over a nerf or imbalance would surely not be something that's going to be ignored. The larger the population, the most likely actions would be taken.
Right now, a good example is players being frustrated at Lower Tiers in Fleet Mark Events. Them dragging people down and wasting their time. So would you ignore those whining about that? Or you think about adjusting the system to improve things?
As for civil discussion, again it depends on the thread. For instance, people wanting competitor's or fanmade ships being added to STO. Even kept civil, you're likely to ignore that because you know it's not going to happen since it's going to cost the company money and time with legal hurdles if having to pursue that design.
we have a right voice dislike the way a nerf turned out like gate nerf
reduce hull strength or remove console slots we have a right to do that
there is a much need in KDF episodes because It can be a pain for a newcomer to STO to level up a KDF
I think all they need now is 4 to 5 episodes should helpg get you through much quicker
How do you know they don't get looked at? Just because something doesn't get implemented, or doesn't get implemented in the poster's desired timeframe, doesn't mean it wasn't looked at, discussed, or even planned.
Without irony or sarcasm:
If I want guaratees I'll buy a toaster.:)
No, that's not it.
And to avoid misunderstandings in this regard: I've been here since Jan 2010 and I must say I've seen a lot of strange stuff in terms of communication and lack therof.
I'd like to give an anecdotal example to explain what I mean.
Early in the released game, Klingon tricorders were not working at all in Klingon exploration missions.
And I mean literally not at all.
So were were running through foggy nightmaps trying to destroy dark Borg devices that looked very much like local flora.
The tricorders were useless and the devices became only targettable at a few meters.
After literally months of people writing tickets and writing about it on the forums we got a response from Stormshade.
It was basically that they'd never heard about this problem until then.
Tickets, threads, they'D never heard about it.
I'll just leave it at that and only say I heard a loud noise when my jaw collided with my desk when I read that.
This is one of several examples I've seen.
And even though I realize this is incredibly difficult to confirm since the old forums are "archived" I hope you take my word this is not something I just came up with.
We feel ignored because of experiences like this and because there is rarely if ever feedback in the sense of "we've seen it, keep it up".
That would already give us the feeling we're not ignored.
Even if the end result will not change it would be a hughe change in atmosphere on the forums.
Right now it feels, at least to me, like this:
If it's whining the post gets ignored.
If it's about KDF, the tread is ignored altogether.
And that's sad even if my perception is wrong.
^ This.
Part of the problem is that a number of forum posters believe they represent some sort of majority.
People who whine on a forum to me are in fact a major deviation from the norm and therefore should never be taken seriously. Just like any whiner you meet in real life.
And the same can be said from our perspective as players as well.
While major issues will surely get a Dev response, other issues will not. So those threads they are interested in, without somekind of acknowledgement, players think the team doesn't care. Like mentioned above with the Klingon Tricorders, sometimes the only way to get Cryptic's attention is to literally kick and scream. Others like PvPers did the same in trying to get attention drawn to PvP issues.
Honestly, only way I figure to solve that is if the Dev Team uses the Star System this forum programing uses that reflects the teams interest with a thread. Saying "hey we arn't going to comment on this, but we are reading and taking notes."
If players know that an issue is being reviewed, surely there would be less frustration over the issue in them knowing its not being ignored.
How do you know they do? Not being sarcastic, but the obvious answer is you dont. The only posts we actually know are looked at are the ones commented on, whether they be whining, constructive, or anything else.
Plenty of positive things have been done in this game's history. They may not be the specific things we have wanted, but there is no doubt there have been many improvements.
You matter. But you don't matter more than all other players, and all the mattering in the world doesn't change the economics of a situation.
I don't know any business that doesn't want to make all their customers happy. The trick is being able to do so and still survive as a business.
Even though I probably appear to be a negative poster in this thread, I'll drink to that.:)
Agreed.
However, there are things that have been wanted since launch (expanded pvp, expanded kdf), yet they have instead chosen to focus their time on other things.
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
I don't know that they do; but I'm not the one claiming to know what's happening with them on the back end.
Even in the "famous" example being touted, nobody involved knows what happened on the back end. Consider these possibilities:
1) Lots of people opened tickets and gave forum feedback. Somebody triaged improperly and the info never got to Cryptic. Stormshade sees a big forum furor and says "we never knew this; I'll inform the right people". Goes and informs right people. Right people say "thanks, Stormshade; we'll get right on fixing that!"
2) Lots of people opened tickets and gave forum feedback. It all went to the devs. Devs were aware, but fix was non-trivial and got triaged to "when somebody has time". Stormshade informs devs. Devs say "yeah, Stormshade, we know; but thanks for passing it along."
3) Hardly anybody opened tickets, those who did opened GM tickets instead of bug reports that didn't get properly forwarded, bug reports didn't contain sufficient information or were unclearly written and devs didn't understand the issue. Issue didn't occur on internal testing shards for some obscure code reason. Stormshade told devs, who found an answer in two minutes, but it required changing an area of code that was frozen until some other large body of work was completed.
In ANY of those cases, we might very well have heard the same words from Stormshade on the front end, and nothing on the back end. So to assume one of them is what happened, and from there conclude that "whining" worked, is fallacious. On the other hand, you've got devs telling you that whining annoys them and makes them uninclined to continue reading. In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, why disbelieve them?
Personally I think a lot of things don't get fixed because people post them in this forum instead of the ones the related devs are reading. Not all the devs who read the forums post; I'd venture that the majority who read them don't post. Plus, I don't know if the Community folks still do this, but once upon a time it was part of their job to consolidate feedback from the Feedback forums and present it to the devs. There's a LOT of feedback; they're more likely to see it if it's in the area for the specific devs with whom they expect to meet.
For example, if you're about to meet with the folks who do the UI, which are you more likely to look at; threads in the "Controls and Interface Feedback" forum, or posts in random other forums that have scrolled off the front page due to high traffic? What about posts in the wrong forum and that are threadjacks of posts on unrelated subjects?
Anyway, the only person in this entire discussion who actually *KNOWS* what goes on behind the scenes says the OP is wrong. The burden of proof therefore lies upon those saying tacofangs is incorrect, because they're the ones making the extraordinary claim. I don't know what happens behind the scenes (other than the one bit of info above that was gleaned from a Cryptic person in IRC long ago), but (barring that) I don't claim to. If anybody else claims to, they ought to be asked to show their evidence.
And when Cryptic was being sold by Atari they told us everything was fine and dandy and that normal development would continue. But then we had the content drought, and only after the fact did they admit how bad things really were. So you are right; only they know what really goes on behind the scenes. But as the past has proven, they are obligated to say whatever paints the picture in the most positive light. At some point after that they may tell us otherwise.
Here! Here! A toast to these two statements!
Every kdf player see each month new ships and a lot of FED stuff around... But KDF faction really get some good things, like the bortasqu' ship, Ferasan race and the AV suit and other small things in the C-store or Lobi Store. I can't deny this point.
But we have this big problem for every kdf player: We really miss something more substantial content. Some kdf-unique content like episodes or more uniform packs may decrease this bad feeling.
KDF player really miss something more touchable, usable, accessible and visible to buy and to play. you can pay 700 zen for an AV uniform to your kdf toon, or unlock a joined trill or ferasan race, but after months of space with each new kdf product, we see 2, 4 or more things to FED toons.
Is hard to "vote" with your wallets because the lack of options to kdf toons. Lockboxes keys? Duty Cadre? ships of lower tier?
With real respect with devs, with all work they have to do, the publisher can make a event to turn the best foundry adventures in official kdf episodes. Just adapt, change and improve some points to become more cool and awesome. You see adventures with multiple foundry episodes can make a great official game episode.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I've done exactly this.
I'm waiting on the Ambassador Class, and on "more Canonical" content, ie: costumes relating to the series and movies, ships from the movies and series, better quality "Star Trek" content (a prettier, more detailled and accurate movie-era Constitution would get my to buy Zen just to get it). I'm not a huge fan of the "Cryptic Trek" starships and uniforms nor of the "son of someone in the series" that I'm always running into that you guys tend to squeeze in to every nook and cranny to try and justify calling it Star Trek Online.
That said, I did like a few of those items, but I'd much prefer to have an Ambassador, than a Bellerophon.
I recently bought the TNG uniform pack... even though I'll probably rarely wear it myself, simply because I want to encourage Cryptic to remember that regardless of the age and year this game is set in, the reason we are here and playing, and subscribing to the game, is because it is "STAR TREK" online. And whenever you put out canon content that unlocks for any character I might create in the future, I'll probably pick it up eventually. (almost certainly when it's a costume pack, or an interior).
eh, sad but true.
i know you are not responsible for many of cryptics descisions dude- if you were, they would have made some better descisions.
though, honestly, if civil discussion worked, we would have a full blown kdf by now, not a half-baked mini faction.
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Well you are about 50% right... Whining will get you ignored unless your whining opens up a money making operation within the game
ROFL, sadly, but hilariously, true dude
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
Otherwise game companies hate whining because it adds up to Negative PR which they don't want to spread. It translates into less sales because negativity does and will make people play and buy less.
That is why Tacofangs comes on here to joke around and make people happy. And why the other mods quickly move negative stuff to other, less visited sections of the forums. Or delete it altogether.
All adds up to marketing, control and $$$ despite the reasoning behind some whining is 100% valid.
Translation: whining works.
This sig dedicated to the many random objects the Mythbusters crew has blow to smitherines
LOL
Translation of Translation: Yes, some of it does if/when it becomes valid, actionable complaints. The rest is moderated out or ignored for marketing reasons.
Oh its so true somewhere between 1/4 to 1/2 of the consoles between the federation and the KDF in the c-store were basically gift wrapped by the few of us in the KDF community back when it was extremely small... which I have noticed it has grown ALOT in the last 6 months.
Pretty much though is they ignored us completely, then we gave these ideas and then all of a sudden they started talking to us and then they said in podcasts we do not know how we are going to get these console ideas to work but we might have them one day...
PWE came along and then they got the tech to make them work... Pretty much once I unveil my latest idea they will love me again. Pretty much is PWE likes gambling and I'm not against it as long as people like me without money to gamble with can still play. Pretty much I am not sure why they couldn't think of this on their own but if they opened up Melee Matches on Andoria and Qo'nos... Something on the slippery ice for feds and battles in the warriors circle on Qo'nos where people can get things from gambling on players in the matches and then players get special melee weapons for their faction and special melee kits for doing so and bam you got your self another money sink for company to make real money.
Pretty much I don't really have much to whine about these days other than the KDF ship line that we got screwed on... As long as equal time goes into each faction. They still need to come up with a solution to why the biased system gives the federation faction a discount where as KDF who is always short changed has to pay full price. It's like you did not pay enough money for what you bought already you need to pay some more to make up for the lack of population thats all your fault because you make the game... we don't!
CCP would like a word with you about that. need I point out the monocle incident? its not the first time a company crossed the line and the players said no more.
accusing someone of 'whining' is nothing more than a buzzword designed to shut people up and ridicule them. no different than screaming 'racist' or 'anti-semite' in many situations in which neither are true.
the point is, if your argument relies on calling someone a 'whiner' then you have no argument of any kind. you just want to shut them up
companies that do not listen to their customers and who antagonize their customers will lose their customers. that is not 'rage quitting' that is not 'whining' that is a fact
he was probably told to keep his mouth shut, after certain past incidents
thats a blatant lie
what a person does in the past directly influences what they will do in the future. especially when it comes to behavior. the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. thats a fact. what you are actually saying is 'shut up and forget we were lied to, misled, bs'd and treated badly, because that was months ago and we don't want people finding out what really happened'
again, there is no whining, there are no whiners. and if you want to get into that discussion and talk about 'crying wolf' how about we talk about cryptic actually doing what they say they will do? claims of content? claims of missions that don't exist? I don't think you want to get into that conversation
correct. being civil means nothing in terms of whether anyone will actually pay attention to a word you say. 'be quiet, don't make waves, trust us' yeah we all know how those situations end
because the response, if there even is any is exactly the same every time. when a person does that its lip service. nothing more. notice nothing ever comes of it? by the same token, how do you know they ARE being looked at? you are describing circular logic
and you just proved my point about buzz words. you're trying to shut people up and nothing more
in other words they lied to us and were shady about it and may admit they are lying to us again right now, in the future? yeah, thats reassuring
That is essentially trying to silence a person for their opinion. As for the "something positive" I mentioned before, to me it means PWE don't understand the spirit of Star Trek at all and are running off in a different direction regardless of what is said.
The illusion of listening is there, possibly because before PWE took over we were listened to; to an extent.
I've been considering actually sending a letter to them in writing to explain why the community is so annoyed here and there. The trouble with these companies is they honestly think they know better than their players. We're all people, and all our opinions count. I just don't like people trying to shoot mine down because they don't agree with them.
Civil discussions on forums are a myth.
... and unfortunately voting with your wallet does not work as well, for a few reasons.
1. (When it is a minority) The company does not care and ignores the problem, even if it is a major issue like a camera bug (making the game unplayable for some people). After S6 hit, the "camera change to free" bug took over a month to get fixed, and is still not completely fixed.
2. (When the majority agrees) The company stops making profit and shuts down the game. This does not help anyone.
A smart game company tries to find a middle ground. Assign a small team of devs to make a list of issues and fix them in order of priority over time.
Another major MMO went from a policy of ignoring the issues to actively hunting and fixing them about a year ago, and it has been clear skies since then. They then went even further and took a player idea about using "time dilation" to fix lag issues in large fights, and implemented it. It was a major change to their game, but proved to be worth every second they put into it.
Just acknowledgement of an issue is enough in many cases, it can be as simple as leaving a post in the topic saying "we are aware of the issue and it has been added to the list of required fixes". Ignoring issues because you feel they are a whine is never a smart answer, and just lead to topic repetition, unhappy players, and bad publicity in the end.
In short, companies have 2 options.
1. Ignore the players and have player discontent build up until the game collapses.
(or)
2. Let the players take a somewhat active role in what changes are made. (or at the very least, acknowledge the issues and add them to a TODO/TO-CONSIDER list)
Just my 2ec.