Considering their approach led to no game and bankruptcy in the end when all was said and done (not to mention having 4 years of development and producing NOTHING that worked) - I don't feel they deserve credit for anything.
I'd say the deserve full credit for the massive failure that they were. It was their fault alone that they took no doubt millions of dollars and flushed them down a toilet trying to 'think outside the box'.
Most every MMO has the same basic systems for a reason. Mostly because that's the only way to make a MMO work with the current state of hardware and network infrastructure. Maybe 5-10 years from now when everyone is running fiber optic cable into their home and have PC's so powerful that a current top end looks like a TI-35 in comparison, something like what PE had in mind might work.
But then again, even if that were true, the fan base still is unlikely to accept it, because even though you see the occasional post from people bemoaning the lack of a truly innovative and new MMO... Most people want what they already know and are comfortable with.
If what PE was doing had any chance of being successful, let alone even being produced in the first place... It would of happened.
The fact that it was such a monumental failure is more then proof enough of what happens when you shoot for the moon, and have no concept of how to build a proper rocket.
Most every MMO has the same basic systems for a reason: WoW did what other games before it had done, did it by pandering to the lowest common denominator, and it was massively successful for it. The gaming industry is no longer about innovation, but profit. Businesses have to make money, of course, but when your entire industry is built of the same stagnated regurgitation of ideas, things will ultimately go sour.
Point in case: SWTOR. The most expensive MMO developed to date with one of the most beloved franchises in movie history, designed by the team that brought us some of the most memorable and praised RPGs in the gaming world. It will forever be known as a game that had infinite potential and delivered almost nothing at all.
The downfall of SWTOR and the wide positive support for GW2 is a sign that things are finally changing; I think MMO gamers have finally grown tired of the same old "WoW" formula.
I think Perpetual, where it concerns STO, was ahead of its time.
The downfall of SWTOR and the wide positive support for GW2 is a sign that things are finally changing; I think MMO gamers have finally grown tired of the same old "WoW" formula.
I'd agree, they are at least not willing to pay $15 a month for another WoW. However the success of this and other F2P/Hybrid MMO's is proof that the formula does work only not perhaps with the same level of success that WoW had.
But even in SWTOR, the things that they tried to do differently and break out of the WoW style MMO were bashed by the players, because it was too different from what they were used to.
I think Perpetual, where it concerns STO, was ahead of its time.
Perhaps, but if so, it was about 15 years ahead of it's time, because even if people would of accepted what they were planing, the tech wouldn't of.
One thing that should be kept in mind is that if PE had finished STO, the only garantee is that it would have been different. Different does not always equate to better. I am not saying anyone is saying that STO would have been better under PE, just putting a perspective out there before it turns that way. We all know there are some forum goers that are extemly bitter towards Cryptic/PWE, warranted or not.
They were a small studio working on a big game. They did produce something that worked--the information's been linked to in the thread. It just wasn't enough of a game to warrant continuing the project and sinking more money into it.
You sound bitter.
Well, considering I was signed up and following development oof the game on Perpetual's website (beta was slated for 2007); and read exactly what happened - I just have to say, IMO - Perpetual talked big, yet produced nothing in the end.
FYI - The gamme they had partially finished and were supposedly taking to beta wasn't a proto STO, it was another fantasy based ground only MMO called "Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising"; and they were having issues getting it to beta stage to begin with; and knew the engine they had wouldn't work with their 'vision' for STO.
Funny thing is - Cryptic is also a small MMO development studio, yet under the gun, in 18 months they did produce and beta the first version of STO. What I have to wonder is - What COULD Cryptic have done if they had the four years of development Perpetual wasted.
Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012 PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
Funny thing is - Cryptic is also a small MMO development studio, yet under the gun, in 18 months they did produce and beta the first version of STO. What I have to wonder is - What COULD Cryptic have done if they had the four years of development Perpetual wasted.
I probably wouldn't be slapping them across the back of the skull trying to get them to finish the KDF.
Well, considering I was signed up and following development oof the game on Perpetual's website (beta was slated for 2007); and read exactly what happened - I just have to say, IMO - Perpetual talked big, yet produced nothing in the end.
FYI - The gamme they had partially finished and were supposedly taking to beta wasn't a proto STO, it was another fantasy based ground only MMO called "Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising"; and they were having issues getting it to beta stage to begin with; and knew the engine they had wouldn't work with their 'vision' for STO.
Funny thing is - Cryptic is also a small MMO development studio, yet under the gun, in 18 months they did produce and beta the first version of STO. What I have to wonder is - What COULD Cryptic have done if they had the four years of development Perpetual wasted.
Cryptic had big money behind them and name recognition thanks to the success of CoX. That doesn't make or break the game, but it was certainly an advantage over Perpetual.
The beta and launch versions of STO are nothing to write home about. The first year of post-launch development was spent fixing things that were broken at launch and adding content to fill in the gaps. It was a rush job plain and simple. Personally, I think this falls more on the IP holders than either Perpetual or Cryptic. CBS didn't (doesn't) seem patient enough for the MMO scene.
We've seen what Cryptic can/could do in the same amount of time. The game we have now has been a work in progress for over two years. I'm not entirely impressed--nor am I entirely disappointed.
When it comes down to it, I think the ST universe demands more out of a game than Perpetual or Cryptic are--or were--able to deliver.
I just don't think Perpetual should be written off because the game was pulled from them. If you wanna deal in "could haves," then I most certainly believe that with ample time, Perpetual could have delivered us a good ST MMO.
Cryptic artists are always whinning about not having enough time to do stuff. Why arent they outsourcing work to Eaves? Everything he dreams up screams pure Federation. He can start by mocking up bridges to go with our C store ships. Something Cryptic artists are too lazy and or time constrained to do.
STO: @AGNT009 Since Dec 2010
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
Funny thing is - Cryptic is also a small MMO development studio, yet under the gun, in 18 months they did produce and beta the first version of STO. What I have to wonder is - What COULD Cryptic have done if they had the four years of development Perpetual wasted.
We can likely assume that they'd produce something a little lower than we have now Lots of whats hear now is based upon player feedback from the last couple of years, but ideas such as Doffs and to some extent Starbases came from them.
We can likely assume that they'd produce something a little lower than we have now Lots of whats hear now is based upon player feedback from the last couple of years, but ideas such as Doffs and to some extent Starbases came from them.
Just my two cents of course.
Well we're still waiting for some story content. And what is Star Trek but good stories?
After two years, STO is still a work in progress, there were many technical updates (F2P, doffs, starbases, farming content), but nothing about what ST is. And I'm not sure that most of the playerbase is fond of technical updates. They are needed because the game is still unfinished but it's not really why we are here.
I mean, when we ask for a revamp of science abilities, of many space sets, or stuff about pvp balance, or whatever, it's not because we're having a lot of fun giving suggestions, it's because it's so obvious that it's just expected.
I just don't think Perpetual should be written off because the game was pulled from them.
But the game was pulled from them because they had spent who knows how much money and had nothing to show for it. The beta of Gods and Heroes didn't really do much of anything to help their STO development, other then perhaps as a test of the eng. Which may or may not of ever worked correctly for STO.
So the fact that the game was pulled after the time they had, and effectively had nothing to show for it, is a very good reason to write them off.
If you wanna deal in "could haves," then I most certainly believe that with ample time, Perpetual could have delivered us a good ST MMO.
Cryptic artists are always whinning about not having enough time to do stuff. Why arent they outsourcing work to Eaves? Everything he dreams up screams pure Federation. He can start by mocking up bridges to go with our C store ships. Something Cryptic artists are too lazy and or time constrained to do.
That's a good idea! I think he might have some fun with it too.
Cryptic artists are always whinning about not having enough time to do stuff. Why arent they outsourcing work to Eaves? Everything he dreams up screams pure Federation. He can start by mocking up bridges to go with our C store ships. Something Cryptic artists are too lazy and or time constrained to do.
When Cryptic got the STO license from Perpetual (or P2 entertainment, or whatever they were trying to call themselves), they received all the artwork that Perpetual had, including the artwork that Eaves did for Perpetual.
Now, as for artists complaining about not having enough time... That's something I've never heard of. Artists are usually the ones with too much spare time because they don't have systems or models in place to attach their art to. Case in point: the fact that we have bridges and ship interiors at all is due to the fact that artists were working on their own time making them. It's a little more apparent now with the way that they work that they were shoehorning them in with the tech they had at the time, making them effectively ground instances instead of developing new systems for them (and now everything we have tied in with them is built around that fact). Another case in point: species/faction badges: We were shown these over a year ago because some artist had done the work on them, but with no system in place to use them, they never got put into the game.
Art seems to be a lot easier to come by. Artists can make pretty pictures and textures all day long, but without systems in place to use them, it just sits. So I don't think it's the art that always needs more time, it's the systems.
Another thing to consider. John Eaves' background is set design for Television and Movie Production. While this may give him special insight on game world level design in terms of how things look depending on camera angles, he may not really have much insight or experience with 3D computer modeling for MMO worlds. Also, as a big-time TV and Movie designer, there is likely a big question of $$$. I'm pretty sure the pricetag for Eaves to be interested in making art specifically for STO is a bit higher than Cryptic is willing to pay, when they already have artists that they believe can produce similar (or close enough) quality work for a much lower price. (or at least they already have enough artists that they're making extra art that will likely never be seen because we're still waiting on tech and/or story to attach to it)
But the game was pulled from them because they had spent who knows how much money and had nothing to show for it. The beta of Gods and Heroes didn't really do much of anything to help their STO development, other then perhaps as a test of the eng. Which may or may not of ever worked correctly for STO.
So the fact that the game was pulled after the time they had, and effectively had nothing to show for it, is a very good reason to write them off.
Given enough monkeys and typewriters...
Since we don't know how much money was spent (that I'm aware of), there's nothing to be said. What we can say is that Perpetual delivered all of the conceptual work needed to frame the game as well as a handful of systems designs.
And ... they'd produce Shakespeare. Don't know how that helps your argument that Cryptic saved anything. The implication here is that anyone could have made STO. Cryptic took Perpetual's four years of concepts and artwork and shoehorned it into their engine. And to that effect, it can be--and is always--argued that the Cryptic engine isn't suitable for ST either.
Do you honestly expect a AAA MMO to be developed in four years or less? Cryptic only managed a two-year development cycle thanks to the aforementioned shoe-horning--and even then, the launch was miserable and the game was incomplete (Yay for time constraints imposed by impatient IP overlords!).
Perpetual gets praise from me for being ambitious.
Well we're still waiting for some story content. And what is Star Trek but good stories?
After two years, STO is still a work in progress, there were many technical updates (F2P, doffs, starbases, farming content), but nothing about what ST is. And I'm not sure that most of the playerbase is fond of technical updates. They are needed because the game is still unfinished but it's not really why we are here.
I mean, when we ask for a revamp of science abilities, of many space sets, or stuff about pvp balance, or whatever, it's not because we're having a lot of fun giving suggestions, it's because it's so obvious that it's just expected.
Well, the best news I've heard in awhile is that Stahl is looking at getting Kestrel an assistant.
I've said awhile that I think it would work best to have two content teams. In MMO parlance, that's dungeon designers and quest writers. That isn't saying they don't work together, that dungeon designers never write quests or that quest writers get no dungeon input.
But designing, say, Starbase Incursions and lore dailies are two separate skillsets. There's a divide already visible in terms of content designers Cryptic has, aside from maybe a couple like Heinig and the guy who did Coliseum. And I think, really, Heinig is just so good at lore and immersion that he looks like a better RPG designer (I know, that's his background; but his systems were never strikingly original and the genius was in lore building and immersion) and the other guy is so good at thematic, mechanical stuff that he ends up creating immersion as a side effect.
Beyond that, there's a reason why TV shows have staffs of writers, even when there's a showrunner/auteur. Two people can be more prolific and practical than one person, exponentially, because of the power of bouncing ideas and also because two or more people can have people bounce ideas while one focuses on practical implementation and design budget. Stahl can do some of that and has but he's too busy and too high a paygrade to do that full time.
And ... they'd produce Shakespeare. Don't know how that helps your argument that Cryptic saved anything.
No you seemed to miss my point.
You said that given ample time PE could of produced STO, and that's true, given enough time and money they could of. But that's kind of a meaningless statement, hence my comment about monkeys and typewriters.
Interesting that the layout is nearly identical to the TNG ENT-D Engineering, but it's described as a complex where engineering technologies are developed and not an actual ship Engineering room (and again it is scaled waaay up because it's a ground/starbase facility, not inside a starship).
Interesting that the layout is nearly identical to the TNG ENT-D Engineering, but it's described as a complex where engineering technologies are developed and not an actual ship Engineering room (and again it is scaled waaay up because it's a ground/starbase facility, not inside a starship).
Just saw that and it's pretty fun to see.
Though had to chuckle that there are handrails on the catwalks and stairs, but none around that warp core pit. :P
Cryptic artists are always whinning about not having enough time to do stuff. Why arent they outsourcing work to Eaves? Everything he dreams up screams pure Federation. He can start by mocking up bridges to go with our C store ships. Something Cryptic artists are too lazy and or time constrained to do.
John Eaves isn't a game artist, he's a professional production illustrator.
Well, the best news I've heard in awhile is that Stahl is looking at getting Kestrel an assistant.
Indeed. There are a lot of missions in the Foundry where the only thing separating them from Cryptic's best work is the quality of the writing. A good writer could give them a couple of passes and they'd be worthy of inclusion in the core game.
Include the author's name in the opening text when you enter the system, give him a free extra Foundry slot, and call it a day.
Former moderator of these forums. Lifetime sub since before launch. Been here since before public betas. Foundry author of "Franklin Drake Must Die".
Comments
Most every MMO has the same basic systems for a reason: WoW did what other games before it had done, did it by pandering to the lowest common denominator, and it was massively successful for it. The gaming industry is no longer about innovation, but profit. Businesses have to make money, of course, but when your entire industry is built of the same stagnated regurgitation of ideas, things will ultimately go sour.
Point in case: SWTOR. The most expensive MMO developed to date with one of the most beloved franchises in movie history, designed by the team that brought us some of the most memorable and praised RPGs in the gaming world. It will forever be known as a game that had infinite potential and delivered almost nothing at all.
The downfall of SWTOR and the wide positive support for GW2 is a sign that things are finally changing; I think MMO gamers have finally grown tired of the same old "WoW" formula.
I think Perpetual, where it concerns STO, was ahead of its time.
I'd agree, they are at least not willing to pay $15 a month for another WoW. However the success of this and other F2P/Hybrid MMO's is proof that the formula does work only not perhaps with the same level of success that WoW had.
But even in SWTOR, the things that they tried to do differently and break out of the WoW style MMO were bashed by the players, because it was too different from what they were used to.
Perhaps, but if so, it was about 15 years ahead of it's time, because even if people would of accepted what they were planing, the tech wouldn't of.
Well, considering I was signed up and following development oof the game on Perpetual's website (beta was slated for 2007); and read exactly what happened - I just have to say, IMO - Perpetual talked big, yet produced nothing in the end.
FYI - The gamme they had partially finished and were supposedly taking to beta wasn't a proto STO, it was another fantasy based ground only MMO called "Gods & Heroes: Rome Rising"; and they were having issues getting it to beta stage to begin with; and knew the engine they had wouldn't work with their 'vision' for STO.
Funny thing is - Cryptic is also a small MMO development studio, yet under the gun, in 18 months they did produce and beta the first version of STO. What I have to wonder is - What COULD Cryptic have done if they had the four years of development Perpetual wasted.
PWE ARC Drone says: "Your STO forum community as you have known it is ended...Display names are irrelevant...Any further sense of community is irrelevant...Resistance is futile...You will be assimilated..."
I probably wouldn't be slapping them across the back of the skull trying to get them to finish the KDF.
Cryptic had big money behind them and name recognition thanks to the success of CoX. That doesn't make or break the game, but it was certainly an advantage over Perpetual.
The beta and launch versions of STO are nothing to write home about. The first year of post-launch development was spent fixing things that were broken at launch and adding content to fill in the gaps. It was a rush job plain and simple. Personally, I think this falls more on the IP holders than either Perpetual or Cryptic. CBS didn't (doesn't) seem patient enough for the MMO scene.
We've seen what Cryptic can/could do in the same amount of time. The game we have now has been a work in progress for over two years. I'm not entirely impressed--nor am I entirely disappointed.
When it comes down to it, I think the ST universe demands more out of a game than Perpetual or Cryptic are--or were--able to deliver.
I just don't think Perpetual should be written off because the game was pulled from them. If you wanna deal in "could haves," then I most certainly believe that with ample time, Perpetual could have delivered us a good ST MMO.
Capt. Will Conquest of the U.S.S. Crusader
We can likely assume that they'd produce something a little lower than we have now
Just my two cents of course.
Well we're still waiting for some story content. And what is Star Trek but good stories?
After two years, STO is still a work in progress, there were many technical updates (F2P, doffs, starbases, farming content), but nothing about what ST is. And I'm not sure that most of the playerbase is fond of technical updates. They are needed because the game is still unfinished but it's not really why we are here.
I mean, when we ask for a revamp of science abilities, of many space sets, or stuff about pvp balance, or whatever, it's not because we're having a lot of fun giving suggestions, it's because it's so obvious that it's just expected.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
But the game was pulled from them because they had spent who knows how much money and had nothing to show for it. The beta of Gods and Heroes didn't really do much of anything to help their STO development, other then perhaps as a test of the eng. Which may or may not of ever worked correctly for STO.
So the fact that the game was pulled after the time they had, and effectively had nothing to show for it, is a very good reason to write them off.
Given enough monkeys and typewriters...
That's a good idea! I think he might have some fun with it too.
When Cryptic got the STO license from Perpetual (or P2 entertainment, or whatever they were trying to call themselves), they received all the artwork that Perpetual had, including the artwork that Eaves did for Perpetual.
Now, as for artists complaining about not having enough time... That's something I've never heard of. Artists are usually the ones with too much spare time because they don't have systems or models in place to attach their art to. Case in point: the fact that we have bridges and ship interiors at all is due to the fact that artists were working on their own time making them. It's a little more apparent now with the way that they work that they were shoehorning them in with the tech they had at the time, making them effectively ground instances instead of developing new systems for them (and now everything we have tied in with them is built around that fact). Another case in point: species/faction badges: We were shown these over a year ago because some artist had done the work on them, but with no system in place to use them, they never got put into the game.
Art seems to be a lot easier to come by. Artists can make pretty pictures and textures all day long, but without systems in place to use them, it just sits. So I don't think it's the art that always needs more time, it's the systems.
Another thing to consider. John Eaves' background is set design for Television and Movie Production. While this may give him special insight on game world level design in terms of how things look depending on camera angles, he may not really have much insight or experience with 3D computer modeling for MMO worlds. Also, as a big-time TV and Movie designer, there is likely a big question of $$$. I'm pretty sure the pricetag for Eaves to be interested in making art specifically for STO is a bit higher than Cryptic is willing to pay, when they already have artists that they believe can produce similar (or close enough) quality work for a much lower price. (or at least they already have enough artists that they're making extra art that will likely never be seen because we're still waiting on tech and/or story to attach to it)
Raptr profile
Since we don't know how much money was spent (that I'm aware of), there's nothing to be said. What we can say is that Perpetual delivered all of the conceptual work needed to frame the game as well as a handful of systems designs.
And ... they'd produce Shakespeare. Don't know how that helps your argument that Cryptic saved anything. The implication here is that anyone could have made STO. Cryptic took Perpetual's four years of concepts and artwork and shoehorned it into their engine. And to that effect, it can be--and is always--argued that the Cryptic engine isn't suitable for ST either.
Do you honestly expect a AAA MMO to be developed in four years or less? Cryptic only managed a two-year development cycle thanks to the aforementioned shoe-horning--and even then, the launch was miserable and the game was incomplete (Yay for time constraints imposed by impatient IP overlords!).
Perpetual gets praise from me for being ambitious.
Well, the best news I've heard in awhile is that Stahl is looking at getting Kestrel an assistant.
I've said awhile that I think it would work best to have two content teams. In MMO parlance, that's dungeon designers and quest writers. That isn't saying they don't work together, that dungeon designers never write quests or that quest writers get no dungeon input.
But designing, say, Starbase Incursions and lore dailies are two separate skillsets. There's a divide already visible in terms of content designers Cryptic has, aside from maybe a couple like Heinig and the guy who did Coliseum. And I think, really, Heinig is just so good at lore and immersion that he looks like a better RPG designer (I know, that's his background; but his systems were never strikingly original and the genius was in lore building and immersion) and the other guy is so good at thematic, mechanical stuff that he ends up creating immersion as a side effect.
Beyond that, there's a reason why TV shows have staffs of writers, even when there's a showrunner/auteur. Two people can be more prolific and practical than one person, exponentially, because of the power of bouncing ideas and also because two or more people can have people bounce ideas while one focuses on practical implementation and design budget. Stahl can do some of that and has but he's too busy and too high a paygrade to do that full time.
No you seemed to miss my point.
You said that given ample time PE could of produced STO, and that's true, given enough time and money they could of. But that's kind of a meaningless statement, hence my comment about monkeys and typewriters.
Interesting that the layout is nearly identical to the TNG ENT-D Engineering, but it's described as a complex where engineering technologies are developed and not an actual ship Engineering room (and again it is scaled waaay up because it's a ground/starbase facility, not inside a starship).
Raptr profile
Just saw that and it's pretty fun to see.
Though had to chuckle that there are handrails on the catwalks and stairs, but none around that warp core pit. :P
John Eaves isn't a game artist, he's a professional production illustrator.
Indeed. There are a lot of missions in the Foundry where the only thing separating them from Cryptic's best work is the quality of the writing. A good writer could give them a couple of passes and they'd be worthy of inclusion in the core game.
Include the author's name in the opening text when you enter the system, give him a free extra Foundry slot, and call it a day.