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What Went Wrong? What Can Be Improved?: A Conversation on Making a great 3rd Faction
gradstudent1
Member Posts: 633 Arc User
Framing the Debate: Lessons from the KDF
It goes without saying that the KDF is not the strongest spoke in the STO wheel. By this comment I do not mean to degrade its players--KDF is my primary faction--but simply to say that, the playing experience is of a lesser quality than on the Fed side. Few would dispute this. From PWE's angle, the faction simply does not produce the revenue the Fed side does. In defense of PWE, the devs have exhibited simple business sense that any reasonably-"lobed"-Ferengi could agree with: Invest where there are profits. PWE should not be blamed for following their "ears," as it were.
That being said, behind the anger that many of my KDF friends exhibit is a genuine love for Star Trek, the KDF, and the game. Canonically speaking, Klingons are passionate warriors; this carries over into our role-playing in the game. Our faction is great because it is made up of great people, but the playing experience on the KDF side is admittedly sub-par. We fight for what we want, and to fight is to be Klingon.
I am writing this post, however, to start a conversation around the topic of a third faction. It is my hope that this thread can serve as a think-tank type resource for PWE as they begin to brainstorm about a third faction (season 8 it sounds like). A few key issues need to be reflected upon so as to prevent many of the problems we are currently having in the KDF. These questions will be updated as the conversations grows.
QUESTIONS FOR REFLECTION (UNDER CONSTRUCTION):
1) What are some of the key problems with the KDF faction that need to be recognized and addressed so that they can be avoided when PWE decides to create a third faction? Put differently, what can the devs do with a third faction in order to prevent the problems we now see with KDF. Another underdeveloped minority faction will only result in greater consumer anger.
2) After the honeymoon period?i.e., the 1-2 months in which everyone plays faction 3 because it is new and cool?how will PWE keep the content, characters, and ships so compelling, fresh, and interesting that people will stay for the long run? To continue the metaphor, ?novelty? keeps a couple together on the honeymoon; what can be done to ensure that the marriage will stay together in year 10, 20, 30?. What will make faction 3 a solid, long-haul aspect of the game?
3) From the perspective of canon, both the Romulans and the Klingons have a limited number of ships when compared to the vast diversity one sees in the Federation. This makes sense since all of the Star Trek series are, in fact, focused on the Federation. Will PWE have the resources to put into designing new ships, or will the Third Faction have to deal with long periods of time without new equipment/ships, as the KDF is currently experiencing (see my post on a proposed Negh?var with more universal slots [http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=353631])? Another way of putting this: Does PWE have the resources to devote to developing new ships when the canon ships run out?
4) If KDF is second on the faction priority list currently, will it be bumped to third place? What will the third faction mean for the health of the already-existing KDF faction?
5) Generally speaking, what lessons can be learned from the game more generally that will help the devs make faction 3 an excellent playing experience?
An Appeal Against Rage:
Please do not allow this thread to be a vent thread, full of angry comments toward PWE. I once heard one of the devs interviewed (I won?t mention names) and he mentioned that there is often so much ?ranting? that it is difficult to get sift through the forums for the really valuable material. For better or worse, what this suggests to me is that, when there is an overabundance of ranting, the thread is simply passed over. Make your critiques and suggestions thoughtful, even forceful, but please leave ranting to the side for the moment so that we can gain a hearing.
Conclusion:
Let's make this thread one that is genuinely productive and generative?one that the devs can return to as they think about a third faction. If you see other questions you want added to this list, PM me in-game or just leave them in the discussion below and I will try to update the list. This post will remain ?under construction? as the conversation develops. See you in-game.
It goes without saying that the KDF is not the strongest spoke in the STO wheel. By this comment I do not mean to degrade its players--KDF is my primary faction--but simply to say that, the playing experience is of a lesser quality than on the Fed side. Few would dispute this. From PWE's angle, the faction simply does not produce the revenue the Fed side does. In defense of PWE, the devs have exhibited simple business sense that any reasonably-"lobed"-Ferengi could agree with: Invest where there are profits. PWE should not be blamed for following their "ears," as it were.
That being said, behind the anger that many of my KDF friends exhibit is a genuine love for Star Trek, the KDF, and the game. Canonically speaking, Klingons are passionate warriors; this carries over into our role-playing in the game. Our faction is great because it is made up of great people, but the playing experience on the KDF side is admittedly sub-par. We fight for what we want, and to fight is to be Klingon.
I am writing this post, however, to start a conversation around the topic of a third faction. It is my hope that this thread can serve as a think-tank type resource for PWE as they begin to brainstorm about a third faction (season 8 it sounds like). A few key issues need to be reflected upon so as to prevent many of the problems we are currently having in the KDF. These questions will be updated as the conversations grows.
QUESTIONS FOR REFLECTION (UNDER CONSTRUCTION):
1) What are some of the key problems with the KDF faction that need to be recognized and addressed so that they can be avoided when PWE decides to create a third faction? Put differently, what can the devs do with a third faction in order to prevent the problems we now see with KDF. Another underdeveloped minority faction will only result in greater consumer anger.
2) After the honeymoon period?i.e., the 1-2 months in which everyone plays faction 3 because it is new and cool?how will PWE keep the content, characters, and ships so compelling, fresh, and interesting that people will stay for the long run? To continue the metaphor, ?novelty? keeps a couple together on the honeymoon; what can be done to ensure that the marriage will stay together in year 10, 20, 30?. What will make faction 3 a solid, long-haul aspect of the game?
3) From the perspective of canon, both the Romulans and the Klingons have a limited number of ships when compared to the vast diversity one sees in the Federation. This makes sense since all of the Star Trek series are, in fact, focused on the Federation. Will PWE have the resources to put into designing new ships, or will the Third Faction have to deal with long periods of time without new equipment/ships, as the KDF is currently experiencing (see my post on a proposed Negh?var with more universal slots [http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=353631])? Another way of putting this: Does PWE have the resources to devote to developing new ships when the canon ships run out?
4) If KDF is second on the faction priority list currently, will it be bumped to third place? What will the third faction mean for the health of the already-existing KDF faction?
5) Generally speaking, what lessons can be learned from the game more generally that will help the devs make faction 3 an excellent playing experience?
An Appeal Against Rage:
Please do not allow this thread to be a vent thread, full of angry comments toward PWE. I once heard one of the devs interviewed (I won?t mention names) and he mentioned that there is often so much ?ranting? that it is difficult to get sift through the forums for the really valuable material. For better or worse, what this suggests to me is that, when there is an overabundance of ranting, the thread is simply passed over. Make your critiques and suggestions thoughtful, even forceful, but please leave ranting to the side for the moment so that we can gain a hearing.
Conclusion:
Let's make this thread one that is genuinely productive and generative?one that the devs can return to as they think about a third faction. If you see other questions you want added to this list, PM me in-game or just leave them in the discussion below and I will try to update the list. This post will remain ?under construction? as the conversation develops. See you in-game.
Post edited by gradstudent1 on
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That being said it wouldn't be a lot of fun for them to release a new faction that can only be played at VA with no story missions. Even if they aren't particularly elaborate having a story to play through helps a lot.
Does it need to be as long as the Fed story mode? NO! There are several Fed story missions that I have never played simply because there's just too many of them! A lot of them bore me too. Especially the True Way stuff.
My character Tsin'xing
Not enough content - > not enough long-term players - > not enough incentive for Cryptic to make KDF exlusive content -> not enough content.
That more than anything has hamstrung the KDF as a faction. I believe Cryptic had the best intentions of making two equal factions. They just realised some time after saying that they wanted to that it wasn't actually do-able by launch, so they concentrated on the Federation. And thereafter the playerbase was so skewed in favour of the Feds, partly because of the lack of KDF content, that it wasn't economical for them to do more than toss the KDF an occassional bone.
To fix this, they just need to sit down and make some major content releases for the KDF and accept that it won't make them the most money they possibly can, at least in the short term, with the same use of resources. Within the existing framework of KDF Storyline missions rewarding more XP than Fed ones, giving them enough new material to level from 1 to 20 (so it still wouldn't be as many missions as the Fed side has), along with a KDF tutorial and the ability to start as KDF without making & levelling a Fed first, would be enough for me.
If they want to avoid turning the Romulans (since it's safe to assume they'll be the third faction) into KDF#2, then they have to drop it with far more content than the KDF had at lauch. At least as much as the KDF has now, preferably more, so you can start a Romulan at level 1. And they'd need to make a plan, even an internal one that they don't announce, for future content releases and stick to that plan regardless of numbers to give the faction a chance to establish itself.
On point 3, I have no idea if they have the resources or not. They have come up with 2 very nice models recently for the Armitage and Regent, as well as the Fleet Ships, although those are all based on existing ships. Added to that, they have come up with a decent looking all new ship design for the Atrox, and the STO only KDF ships aren't exactly bad either. I'm actually quite fond of the Kar'Fi and Garumba, they're the coolest (if not necessarily the best) two ships in the game. So they definitely have the ability to make good new ships, imo. Whether they can come up with a whole clutch of good ships at once to make a full Romulan faction, I honestly don't know since I can't remember the release 'rate' for all of those ships off the top of my head.
I'd imagine trying to keep a 'different but balanced' approach to 3 factions worth of ships would be nigh on impossible though. I can see plenty of instances of Faction X should have Unique Ship A, whilst but Faction Y should have an answer to it without having a ship with the exact same design philosophy that would be difficult to resolve.
Point 4, I don't think it can be discussed at length without setting off a convo that ignores your appeal against rage. But I'll try. If they did the Romulans as I detailed above with a lot of content from the outset and a plan for future releases that was stuck to, and the KDF remained as it is, the result would probably be more people playing Romulans than KDF over the medium and long term. So the reality would be that the Romulan faction would become #2 and the KDF bumped to #3. There's no point in dancing around the issue, a lot of primary-KDF or KDF only players will take that as a '**** you', and might be put off going near the Romulan faction or staying in the game in general over it. Which is not good for anyone.
If they fixed the KDF and then did the Romulans properly, I don't know which would be more popular, but there probably wouldn't be much in the difference, so there wouldn't be much difference in resource allocation. So that would cause less issues.
I might come back to point 5 if I think of something good.
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skhc: I commend you for controlling your rage!=) But not only that, I commend you for giving some really nice, reflective feedback. If this thread continues to gain momentum, I might have something really substantial to present to the devs via twitter. That is my hope, at least.
Please, let the conversation continue. I think that both the new faction and the KDF stands to benefit from further comments.
At Gen Con Jack Emmert said: "Starfleet and Klingon. Yeah. So two factions, full PvE content."
After that they said that at the beginning KDF would be PvP oriented, not a PvP Faction as they realized they couldn't get KDF on par before the release date.
Just see here
http://www.stowiki.org/User:Peregrine_Falcon#The_History_Of_The_Klingon_Empire_With_Cryptic_Studios
The original plan was for it to be a full PvE faction like the Federation. That plan just couldn't be realised in time for launch and updates to get it there were promised. A lot of which haven't been delivered simply because it wasn't economical for Cryptic to deliver on them.
That's why people complain.
I've had a further thought. With the status of the Romulan Empire established already in STO, I don't see at least two of the Featured Episodes working for them, which is a lot of content for them to miss out on. Maybe they could implement a 2 out of 3 system for some future Featured Episodes, whereby it'd only be playable by 2 factions and release a couple like that with the Romulans at lauch. So for example, the Reman Mystery and Dominion FE could only be played by Feds & KDF, since it's hard to make sense of the player doing the same things as a Romulan. Whilst another couple of Romulan Episodes could be introduced at Romulan launch that both the KDF & Romulans could play, but not the Feds.
Down the line, some that are Fed & Romulan only could be brough in, and some FE's would be sufficiently ubiquituos for all three to use (ie. if they do one on the Iconians).
Half-assed idea?
Since that time the KDF have gotten 9 new Missions, plus Sorties, Marauding, etc, but it's become impossible for Cryptic to please the voracious hunger of the Fed player while still trying to do anything extra for the KDF. And, of course, both Factions lost a year to the FTP conversion.
At this point, in this economy, there's no way PW is going to dump $1 million into the KDF to bring them up to snuff. There's not enough proof that the financial investment would net back the money - not when other Sub games are dropping like flies and converting to FTP as quickly as they can. The only way I can ever see Cryptic being able to put the money into the KDF is via an Expansion Pack like LotRO and DDO make. That way they're assured of a return rather then just hoping more people will join the game to play KDF.
Totally agree with removing the fed lvl 25 requirement.
Would be interesting for the devs to make an opening/start episode for the kdf side. Would help with emersion into the faction. That being said a 3rd faction would do well to have its own opening episode for emersion.
Currently the focus is mostly on Fed content but if the devs managed thier cookies just right they could find a fair way to provide content for all their factions.
example: 2x fed content, 1x kdf content, 1x new faction content.
excellent post btw:cool:
Regretably I can't see any muchKDF missions since all essources seem to go into C-Store to generate revenue. The money seems not to be reinvested into STO either.
And for the record it wasn't CBS that was holding up the Rademaker deal due it being used in books. CBS approved the use of the ships a year ago. The hold up was all between Cryptic and Mark.
How many Fed leveling-up missions are there right now? 50-60? And yet, we the players still would like more in order to make leveling up less boring and less of a grind. I think I read somewhere that 50 new KDF missions would fill out that faction completely, yet there's been very little movement on that front.
I think a more realistic goal would be as follows:
1. Finish the KDF faction in order for it to run from levels 1-50.
2. When a player hits level 50 with any character (Fed or KDF), the ability to start a Romulan alt opens up.
3. Romulans start at level 45. There are 5-10 Romulan-centered PvE missions to run. 3 classes - Science/Eng/Tac. 5 unique Romulan ships.
4. At 50, Romulans get access to all end-game content, same as Fed and KDF (Starbases, future exploration, future colonization, etc.).
I think this would be both do-able and economical. Is it perfect? No, but it could be fun, and it could be done within a reasonable amount of time.
If it works, they could later roll out Cardassians and Breen.
Actually, I don't see the Devidian FE's working all that well either, thematically. The past missions where you're on a Federation starbase, specifically. They might not recognize modern Klingons, but they sure can't miss a uniformed Romulan.
The Deferi FE's could be kind of sticky if a Romulan faction included the Breen, too.
What I would like to see, that would make it a little more possible, would be mission tech that let Cryptic substitute maps or even entire missions based on faction. It could really work out for the KDF too, if some of the less suitable missions could be replaced with substitutes. Same general storyline, more customizable per faction.
What I can't see is the player base being very happy about FE's that excluded their faction without getting any content of their own at the same time. I'm not sure Cryptic is open to that particular can of worms anytime soon.
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Could it be done sure, should it be done?
They could create a story arc in witch a the Remans/Romulan join the Federation\Klingon Empire that is unlocked after L45/50 instead of creating a NEW playable faction.
But as a player i would like to see more PvE content at the top end, right now you have 3 Space and 3 ground STF's. The idea that 6 missions are going to hold peoples attention for the long haul is just laughable there are more missions that could be remastered, Terrordome Space/Ground.
Bad idea, really, really, really, bad idea!
Many or even most fans of the romulan Empire don't want to play side on side with the Starfleet and their missions. A NEW faction (at least from lvl 40 to 50) would be much better than a new species with 3 ships on FED side.
What about the Dominion FEs would pose a problem? The first mission?
My character Tsin'xing
Could be explained away as having taken place before "Balance of Terror" when no Human knew what Romulans looked like.
Al Rivera hates Klingons
Star Trek Online: Agents of Jack Emmert
All cloaks should be canon.
It may not be the ideal idea but it isnt "bad" its just one you dislike. Making them a incomplete playable faction would be an even worse idea.
Reason 01: Lack of Story to flush out the Romulan Empire, this will upset people who want to enjoy the content if there really isn't any or vary little.
Reason 02: Lack of Ships they have the Bird of Pray, Escort, War Bird and Scimitar, the chances of getting much in the way of new ships will be small to non-existent.
Reason 03: If they did make it an unlock and its own faction, many players would be forced to buy more character slots. This would generate even more outrage from players and feed the "PWE is just pumping the play for money" out rage.
Reason 04: If they made it a Playable Faction you would take a already small/fragmented player base and fragment it even more. The fact that many players would be forced to buy additional character slots would prevent many players from playing and cause many people to just refuse to play them because it would cost them ZEN.
Reason 05: Development Resources - Where are the resources going to some to create the missions/maps/bridges/star bases/ect... Right now the Developers cant keep up with the current schedule let alone take on a huge undertaking like flushing out a new story arc for a small sub set of players.
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If they had the time/resources to do it right, after fixing the Klingon Empire more people would support this movement.