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The old CRF3 vs APO3 question

dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
edited August 2012 in PvP Gameplay
I did a little test with CRF and APO. I did this because I'm constantly being told APO3+CRF2 is superior to APO1+CFR3. The numbers below are tooltip data:

1221 unbuffed
1404 APO1 =183 bonus
1524 APO3 =303
1588 CRF1 =367
1713 CRF2 =492
1831 CRF3 =610
1771 CRF1+APO1 = 1221+367+183
2104 CFR3+APO1 = 1221+610+183
2138 CRF2+APO3 = 1221+492+303

Burst damage:

so far, we see that APO3 has a small edge. 1.5% for burst potential when it's using APO3, and of couse equal burst on the APO1+CRF1 cycle.

This combo, however, has a shorter uptime of the skill that deals the most DPS, with CRF having 1/3 uptime and APO3 having 1/4, meaning that the CRF3 build can deliver peak damage 25% more frequent than the APO3 combo can.

In my eyes, CRF3 wins burst damage.

Sustained DPS:
For the purpose of DPS, let's devide by uptime. That is, 1/3 for CRF and 1/4 for APO.

APO1 - 46 (DPS)
APO3 - 75
CRF1 - 122
CRF2 - 164
CRF3 - 203

But ofc, you would want to run 2 copies of these abilityies, right? So how can this be done?

CRF3+APO1+APO1+CRF1 = 417 DPS
APO3+CRF2+APO1+CRF1 = 407 DPS

So CRF3 wins sustained DPS by 2.5%.

APO3 also gives a bit more damage resist than APO1 (+37 vs +27 = +10 more to APO3), as well as a more bonus defence. (44% vs 27% = 17% more to APO3) Of course, APO3 has 1/4 uptime, and would mainly be used for attacks, so I'll give only little weight to defence stats. You also get a little more agility from APO3, but the practical value of this during an alpha strike is hard to measure.

So far, they're looking fairly balanced, no? I would say CRF3 has the upper hand, barely.... But wait, there's more!

The Doffs!
Assuming, that with purple cannon doffs, you can run with only 1 copy of CRF and still get 2/3 uptime (like you would have with 2 copies and no doffs), and you use CRF3...
CRF3+CRF3+APO1+APO1 = 498


Conclusion:
CRF3 vs APO3 is almost no difference. Choosing one or the other is not gonna make or break your build. However, with CRF3 and cannon doffs you get 19/22% higher sustained damage than the two others! AND you free up a Lt Tac station! :)
Post edited by dassemsto on
«1

Comments

  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Disclaimer:

    I have not tested this with other abilities, and it may be that this could influence the numbers. However, I can not see that it should.

    These are tooltip numbers (taken from the tray). The accuracy of these calculations stand or fall with tooltip accuracy.
  • naldorannaldoran Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I choose Secret Option C: APO3+CRF2+CRF2+APD1+CSV1. Combine with attack pattern doffs, and you get 50% uptime on APO3, which also includes substantial defensive boosts that CRF3 doesn't. This also gives better sustained DPS than you'd get with cannon doffs, without the unpredictability of the doff proc.
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  • dalnar83dalnar83 Member Posts: 2,420 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Uhm, and what if you get the Doffs for attack patterns ?
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    naldoran wrote: »
    the unpredictability of the doff proc.

    the doffs have 50% chance? With 3, you get virtually guaranteed coverage, as only one has to proc
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dalnar83 wrote: »
    Uhm, and what if you get the Doffs for attack patterns ?

    good question. how DO you get those? and how do they work? can you get them to give virtually guaranteed 50% reduction of CD? I don't know, as Ive never seen one :/
  • soulwarrior78soulwarrior78 Member Posts: 541 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    good question. how DO you get those? and how do they work? can you get them to give virtually guaranteed 50% reduction of CD? I don't know, as Ive never seen one :/

    Each doff reduces the cd of all attack patterns by 15% (guaranteed, not just a chance). You can't get those doffs anymore, that's why they sell for 100-150mil on the exchange.
  • thisslerthissler Member Posts: 2,055 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    You did a lot of work there. Really could have saved some time. How about tossing DPS figure on the garbage heap? They belong there.

    Anyways. It really depends on what you intend to do with the ship and how you intend to go about it. You could eat those dps numbers in that case for all they matter. Perhaps they're nutritious?

    Let's just say that you use Omega. Omega buffs other attacks. So if you are using an Omega 3 you can safely assume that there is room in the LTC slots for 2 other attacks. Lets call one of the attacks CRF 2. Lets call the other attack THY 3. As awful as it is to use tool tip info, for consistency we may as well. Omega combined with THY 3 will quadruple its damage. Or maybe you'll use a beam overload somewhere as well. Who knows? But that's ship killing damage. Not tickle over time.

    If you're wasting attacks on buffed and or otherwise hardened targets well whatever go ahead. Or do you think that up time counts? Just because a power is up doesn't mean you use it. You'll just be pouring damage onto a shield, getting some bleed, and having it healed. Woo hoo look at my dps.
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Um honestly I would never ever trust an STO tooltip. Also you might have noticed that once you fire your DPS changes since your power changes so your numbers would only count for the first shot of your first cannon.
    Then there is the fact that Omega offers protection and damage, so its not a simple dps question anyway. But if you want real data you need to test your dmg against an enemy.
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    thissler wrote: »
    (...rude arrogant reply...)

    Now what is your problem? Did I offend you sometimetime in another life? Was that your wife?

    Lets see
    - To be able to do any kind of math, you have to know the basic numbers. Then you can see if you win or loose something when you add more variables. (like BO/HYT)
    - Tooltip figures are not reflecting real values? (this was in my disclaimer, do we know they don't?)
    - Lots of people run with 4xDHC these days
    - "Omega combined with THY 3 will quadruple its damage" as compared to without APO? APO will increase the base damage by about 20%. That meas throwing it on top of a buffed alpha will give your torps about 7% more actual damage, not quadruple.
    - For those of us who don't live in our own little premade vs premade world, sustained damage actually kills.

    Who asked you anyway? I did the math because it interrested me and I posted it here trying to be helpful. No reason to be such an a$$ about it! If you didn't find it interresting, just move on.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Um honestly I would never ever trust an STO tooltip. Also you might have noticed that once you fire your DPS changes since your power changes so your numbers would only count for the first shot of your first cannon.
    Then there is the fact that Omega offers protection and damage, so its not a simple dps question anyway. But if you want real data you need to test your dmg against an enemy.

    Yup, the base damage numbers will change, but the % differences between them will not.

    I know, Omega has a resistance/defence value, as I wrote in the OP. I just put out the DPS numbers here.

    To you too, do we know that tooltips damage numbers are not to be trusted? My guess would be that these are picked up from the routine that calculates the damage being produced. A very complex routine. I doubt they would make a seperate routine to calculate it for the tooltip.
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Well you see I am a scientist so I dont really trust numbers without proof. The thing is in the end your dmg is influenced by many thing, like resists, crits, hits, misses etc. So your weapon has only a fraction of the necessary data an therefor cannot give you a real value.
    Even then you have to look at a real situation. After your initial burst an enemy will react with buffs. So the dmg of your first shot might be more important than dps.
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Well you see I am a scientist so I dont really trust numbers without proof. The thing is in the end your dmg is influenced by many thing, like resists, crits, hits, misses etc. So your weapon has only a fraction of the necessary data an therefor cannot give you a real value.
    Even then you have to look at a real situation. After your initial burst an enemy will react with buffs. So the dmg of your first shot might be more important than dps.

    And as a scientist you know "theorize, generate hypothesis, test hypothesis". This is the scientific way. I have done the theorizing, I have formed the hypothesis, and I have added a disclaimer saying I'm open for the possibility that the tooltips are wrong. If anyone with more time would like to test the hypothesis, they're free to do so, and I for one would love to see the statistics and reviev the test conditions.

    Resists, power levels, gear, etc does not enter into this equation. These are variables that affect the damage that is appliedt, without influencing the damage you generate. Damage applied is another equation altogether: (damageoutput)x(damagenegated)=(damageapplied). I'm only serving the (damageoutput) part of this equation. The purpose of it in this case being to find out how to generate as big a number as possible for (damageoutput).
  • lordmalak1lordmalak1 Member Posts: 4,681 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I won't leave home without APO3, I run it with CRF2, and tho I'd prolly get higher spike damage numbers, the added benifits of APO3 outweigh CRF3 damage numbers. The ability to break tractor holds, short term increased maneuverability/ weapon damage/ shield boost means it stays permanently on my ship, and if my ship cant support it, it gets retired.
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  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    You are telling me things, like a 1.5% dmg increase with data from a tooltip. Data that you do not know how it is generated and that you havent tested in any way.
    Let me add a few questions to you hypothesis:
    I honestly dont know exactly how Rapid fire works. Is there a difference between the number of shots fired in CRF2 and CRF3? If yes you have to account for the higher chance of weapon procs. Also is there a difference in your powerdrain? If yes this would influence your dmg and neither are things that would show up in a tooltip.

    Also you stated that you are looking at the damageoutput and not the damageapplied. So you are talking about a value that is pretty much useless. The only thing that really matter would be the damageapplied.
    For example look at a weapon that has 1000dps and 5% accuracy compared to a weapon with 5000dps and 50% accuracy. Now that isnt an STO related example I just want to show that while the first weapon would win in your damageoutput in reality it would do far less dmg then the second weapon.

    Please understand I do not wish to insult you in any way. I just want to point out that you little test doesnt tell me anything and that if you truly want an answer to your question you should run a real test with an enemy player.
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  • broken1981broken1981 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    apo with crf2 is better. but the uptime of that apo3 going with crf is wasted dps in the long run. there really isent a reason to go apo3 over apo1. i would much rather go crf3 tt2 apo1. atleast my dps is steady because i dont own the apo doffs. not only that but 20% to attack patterns with 2 purple tt doffs....... kinda need all the boost you can get with wep power drop off as your firing off the cannons.
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    aetam1 wrote: »
    You are telling me things, like a 1.5% dmg increase with data from a tooltip. Data that you do not know how it is generated and that you havent tested in any way.
    I have never heard the tooltip being suspected of giving wrong damage, but as I have said before, this is a precondition for the numbers.
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Is there a difference between the number of shots fired in CRF2 and CRF3?
    AFAIK, all versions of CRF increses the fire rate by 25% (or was it 20%)
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Also is there a difference in your powerdrain?
    This wouldn not enter the equation, as it is multiplicative, and would affect the end results, but not the ratio between the different end results.
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Also you stated that you are looking at the damageoutput and not the damageapplied. So you are talking about a value that is pretty much useless. The only thing that really matter would be the damageapplied.
    For example look at a weapon that has 1000dps and 5% accuracy compared to a weapon with 5000dps and 50% accuracy. Now that isnt an STO related example I just want to show that while the first weapon would win in your damageoutput in reality it would do far less dmg then the second weapon.
    Damageoutput is very relevant. As an attacking captain, you have the opportunity to modify two things. One is your own damage output, the other is your enemies ability to negate damage. In the OP, I'm discussing the first of these two, not the second. Yes, the second may be just as important, as may your gear and your powerlevels, but that is not what I'm discussing in this thread.
    aetam1 wrote: »
    Please understand I do not wish to insult you in any way. I just want to point out that you little test doesnt tell me anything and that if you truly want an answer to your question you should run a real test with an enemy player.
    No offence taken. I don't mind having my work scrutinized and my theories tried. :) What this test is supposed to tell you, is exactly what kind of damage advantage the different versions of CRF and APO give you, compared to the other versions. Of course, no theoretical calcylation is ever gonna measure up to the proof of statistical analysis. Example: The numbers showed us the thrusters should have the power to lift off the space shuttle, but we did not know before they actually did it. Still, doing the math first was not a bad idea? Analysis first is usually more effective than a trial and error approach.

    I believe that breaking down the numbers and analyzing each part of the equation individually is an essential part of understanding the game mechanics, and learning exactly what to expect from any change you make. This is but the analysis of two of the abilities, in regard to damage.
  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Anyway, some of the motivation for testing this, was that anytime anyone says he's using CRF3+APO1, he get's "that sux, n00b!"thrown in his face. I've always felt that a bit harsh, especially as I have not by my own experience been able to feel much difference between the two.

    And my impression of this is supported by the tooltips, at least. If anyone has done any testing in a test enviroment, and produced statistics, I'd like very much do see it. It will either confirm my hypothesis, OR prove the tooltips faulty. Either will be will be very useful! :)
  • shimmerlessshimmerless Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    After flying for a while I've realized that using AP:O as a flat damage buff isn't the best idea most of the time, and it's not really comparable to C:RF. Without DOffs AP:O has a long cooldown, and anyone smart is going to realize you just blew it on an attack run and tractor troll you to death.
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  • the4monkeysthe4monkeys Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    have you ever considered that factors of weapons power into this and also eps flow transfers?

    reasons why apo3 with doffs are better with crf2 is due to power drains not as great meaning higher damage.
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    the4monkeys wrote: »
    have you ever considered that factors of weapons power into this and also eps flow transfers?

    reasons why apo3 with doffs are better with crf2 is due to power drains not as great meaning higher damage.

    interresting point. guess i'll have to run a test... /sigh...
  • piwright42piwright42 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    I did a little test with CRF and APO. I did this because I'm constantly being told APO3+CRF2 is superior to APO1+CFR3. The numbers below are tooltip data:

    1221 unbuffed
    1404 APO1 =183 bonus
    1524 APO3 =303
    1588 CRF1 =367
    1713 CRF2 =492
    1831 CRF3 =610
    1771 CRF1+APO1 = 1221+367+183
    2104 CFR3+APO1 = 1221+610+183
    2138 CRF2+APO3 = 1221+492+303

    Burst damage:

    so far, we see that APO3 has a small edge. 1.5% for burst potential when it's using APO3, and of couse equal burst on the APO1+CRF1 cycle.

    This combo, however, has a shorter uptime of the skill that deals the most DPS, with CRF having 1/3 uptime and APO3 having 1/4, meaning that the CRF3 build can deliver peak damage 25% more frequent than the APO3 combo can.

    In my eyes, CRF3 wins burst damage.

    Sustained DPS:
    For the purpose of DPS, let's devide by uptime. That is, 1/3 for CRF and 1/4 for APO.

    APO1 - 46 (DPS)
    APO3 - 75
    CRF1 - 122
    CRF2 - 164
    CRF3 - 203

    But ofc, you would want to run 2 copies of these abilityies, right? So how can this be done?

    CRF3+APO1+APO1+CRF1 = 417 DPS
    APO3+CRF2+APO1+CRF1 = 407 DPS

    So CRF3 wins sustained DPS by 2.5%.

    APO3 also gives a bit more damage resist than APO1 (+37 vs +27 = +10 more to APO3), as well as a more bonus defence. (44% vs 27% = 17% more to APO3) Of course, APO3 has 1/4 uptime, and would mainly be used for attacks, so I'll give only little weight to defence stats. You also get a little more agility from APO3, but the practical value of this during an alpha strike is hard to measure.

    So far, they're looking fairly balanced, no? I would say CRF3 has the upper hand, barely.... But wait, there's more!

    The Doffs!
    Assuming, that with purple cannon doffs, you can run with only 1 copy of CRF and still get 2/3 uptime (like you would have with 2 copies and no doffs), and you use CRF3...
    CRF3+CRF3+APO1+APO1 = 498


    Conclusion:
    CRF3 vs APO3 is almost no difference. Choosing one or the other is not gonna make or break your build. However, with CRF3 and cannon doffs you get 19/22% higher sustained damage than the two others! AND you free up a Lt Tac station! :)

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  • the4monkeysthe4monkeys Member Posts: 172 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dassemsto wrote: »
    interresting point. guess i'll have to run a test... /sigh...

    can I stop u there a second!

    just to let u know the different of 1 eps to 2 eps is approximately 300 more damage (with buffs)

    crf 2 is good balance of power and dps spikes. it has been tested :)
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    the4monkeys wrote: »
    can I stop u there a second!

    just to let u know the different of 1 eps to 2 eps is approximately 300 more damage (with buffs)

    crf 2 is good balance of power and dps spikes. it has been tested :)

    wait, eps consoles are allowing for more damage to be done?
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »
    wait, eps consoles are allowing for more damage to be done?

    ^^ this???
  • dant158#3249 dant158
    dant158#3249
         Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    I thought EPS only affected recouperating power after something like a beam overload.
    Any power drain from simultaneous firing of weapon seems to be almost instantly regenerated after that firing cycle anyway.
  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    not really. usally most builds have enough eps to live without a console. but at low lvls i can give you ship that does 30k dmg without an eps and 300k with one in an arena match. actually if you want to help ppl at low lvls tell them use an eps, often it helps
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  • dontdrunkimshootdontdrunkimshoot Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    there is way to much misinformation about eps consoles out there. if its claimed they are increasing the damage you can do, i need numbers.
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  • aetam1aetam1 Member Posts: 228 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    well the thing is, at release you kind of needed eps consoles. since then there have been many changes and i suppose this adds to confusion.
    now if you want to test something, fire your weapons and look at your energy. if you dont have enough eps transfer your max power will drop. so it is possible to have too much drain and end up at almost no weapon power after a few cycles. in that case you need an eps console. if you have enough transfer to compensate your drain you should be fine, i never tested if you do more dmg in that case with an eps console.
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  • beary666stobeary666sto Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    dontdrunkimshoot wrote: »
    there is way to much misinformation about eps consoles out there. if its claimed they are increasing the damage you can do, i need numbers.

    I did some testing when season 5 came out and no they didn't do anything to damage numbers with 6 beams firing
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  • dassemstodassemsto Member Posts: 792 Arc User
    edited August 2012
    Ok, I had 15 minutes and nothing to do, so I did a very short test. (YES, I KNOW! MY SAMPLE IS TOO SMALL TO CONSTITUTE ABSOLUTE PROOF! still, it gives us a not too rough idea)

    Test conditions:
    - 1v1 arena
    - damage receiver not wearing shield, as I don't want to mix bleedthrough damage into the graph.
    - 3xDHCs and 3xturrets, all [acc]x2
    - Stationary target
    - Parsed with STOICS (i know, it doesn't give most details, but it's a fast way to make a graphical display of events)
    - Target ship destroyed 7 times with different conditions
    - Target ship destroyed within 10 seconds every time, so every attack had it's buffs from start till end.

    Do NOT look at the crits. They are misleading, and can not be trusted with such a small sample group! Focus on the main groupings of hits, as these are the non-crits.

    http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/5554/shorttest.jpg

    Conclusions:
    - As we see from group 1 vs 3, just CRF3 damage is identical with and without extra EPS console.

    - As we see from group 4 and 5, CRF3+APO1 and CRF2+APO3 gives just about identical numbers. Just as predicted by my hypothesis.

    - Group 6 and 7 are just a test of buffed CRF2+APO3 with and without an extra EPS console, and the results show no clear advantage of using an EPS.

    So far, I see nothing that points to my original hypothesis being faulty.


    (please, do not introduce other factors into the test. This is a test of CRF, APO and EPS consoles, nothing more)

    EDIT: To those of you determined to discredit my OP numbers I say "Eat my numbers, or make better ones yourself!" :D (and if you do, please share them with me!)
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