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Al Rivera... RETHINK THE DEFIANT!
tripwire690
Member Posts: 178 Arc User
A Jem'hadar ship could hypothetically slot two emergency power to shields, auxiliary to structural integrity field, hazard emitter, and reverse shield polarity. The mvam can hypothetically slot two transfer shield strengths, two emergency power to shields, and a hazard emitter. The new fleet patrol escort can hypothetically slot the same as a jem'hadar ship minus the reverse shield polarity but add another engineering console slot whose layout could hypothetically be 2 rcs consoles for turn and two neutroniums for added survivability.
What are you thinking? What is your problem? The defiant can hypothetically slot two emergency power to shields, one transfer shield strength and one hazard emitter. I don't know how you THINK pvp'ers or players in general are playing this game but you obviously aren't paying enough attention. The defiant should have battle cloak. It had it in the shows it should have it in the game. And the healing of the other escorts seriously makes this ship not as viable as other selections for competetive pvp because of its lack of extra healing.
The argument seems to be that the Defiant is the equivalent of a raptor for the KDF. That may be true stat wise but it is NOT TRUE ship wise. The defiant is a cloaking class ship. Cloaking classes in general in mmo's are played a certain way. In general they DON'T have the heals of other classes but they make up for it by being a "cloak and dagger" class. They slip into and out of combat and they are able to for the most part at will. There are some disadvantages to this playstyle as well as timing the ability to use cloak as effective and efficiently as possible but it is how the class is played.
The Basic battle cloak the KDF gets on a bop has a cooldown of 15 seconds. So why dont we change the cloaking console of the defiant to one that can be used in combat BUT increase its cooldown to 1min.30 seconds. This means that a Bop will be able to cloak 5 times as often as a defiant. This would put the federations only cloaking ship on par with the cloaking ships of the KDF and IF Cryptic ever gets around to it the cloaking classes of the Romulan Empire. And it would also not make the defiant in comparison to the lesser hull and shields of the Bop overpowered.
-Captain Tripwire-
What are you thinking? What is your problem? The defiant can hypothetically slot two emergency power to shields, one transfer shield strength and one hazard emitter. I don't know how you THINK pvp'ers or players in general are playing this game but you obviously aren't paying enough attention. The defiant should have battle cloak. It had it in the shows it should have it in the game. And the healing of the other escorts seriously makes this ship not as viable as other selections for competetive pvp because of its lack of extra healing.
The argument seems to be that the Defiant is the equivalent of a raptor for the KDF. That may be true stat wise but it is NOT TRUE ship wise. The defiant is a cloaking class ship. Cloaking classes in general in mmo's are played a certain way. In general they DON'T have the heals of other classes but they make up for it by being a "cloak and dagger" class. They slip into and out of combat and they are able to for the most part at will. There are some disadvantages to this playstyle as well as timing the ability to use cloak as effective and efficiently as possible but it is how the class is played.
The Basic battle cloak the KDF gets on a bop has a cooldown of 15 seconds. So why dont we change the cloaking console of the defiant to one that can be used in combat BUT increase its cooldown to 1min.30 seconds. This means that a Bop will be able to cloak 5 times as often as a defiant. This would put the federations only cloaking ship on par with the cloaking ships of the KDF and IF Cryptic ever gets around to it the cloaking classes of the Romulan Empire. And it would also not make the defiant in comparison to the lesser hull and shields of the Bop overpowered.
-Captain Tripwire-
Let no other Captain discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Debuffs and Disables be damned! Charge up your Backstep and Forge your build out of Lock Boxes, Consoles, and Flash Sales feeding off of only your pure will to chain, spam, and hax your way forward. You will not be forgotten to history.
Post edited by tripwire690 on
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Not having the same cloak as the show is a MAJOR oversight and needs to be fixed
What is the Justification for not keeping the cloak in line with the battle cloak seen on the show?
Just because something was in the show doesn't mean it has to be in the game. If the Dev's just went by the Show, there would be no Orions, Letheans, Saurians, Ferengi, Pakleds etc on the Federation/KDF factions.
"Canon is a poor excuse for lack of imagination."
And the matter of fact the BOP that has the Battlecloak is so nerfed to make up for it, that if the Defiant did get one it's stats would have to be reduced by a large number to accommodate this and make it somewhat balanced. I'm sure you don't want this. Oh and only the USS Defiant had the cloak not any other Defiant, even the second Defiant in late season 7 didn't have one. It was a one time use so the Federation players whining about the Defiant should have one, are just blowing things out of proportion.
As far as the Defiant getting a battle cloak is concerned, honestly I think you'll find battle cloak is overrated. It's okay if you're extremely careful but more often than not it'll just get you killed against smart opponents.
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Alright, every cloaking device in the TV shows and movie where battle cloaks, none of this nonsense of can't use it because less that 30 seconds ago a weapon was fired.
In the Game only the BoP get's Battle cloak, it's a very unique ship compared to everything else. Since the Raptor can't Battle cloak the Defiant having a cloaking device and the same BOFF layout is the Federation equivilent.
If the Defiant gets Battle Cloak all Cloaking Devices should become battle cloaks. This won't happen and it's because of Game balance.
A BoP has a 20s cooldown on it's cloak like all other Klingon cloaking devices, it can just use it's while in combat.
The Dreadnought can also cloak.
And finally, don't ever bring canon into an argument about Federation cloaking devices, because the Federation having cloaking devices is breaking canon.
The Defiant had an amendment in the Treaty of Algernon to allow it (and it alone) to have a cloaking device which was originally supervised by the Romulans. Despite the Damage done to the Romulan Star Empire. The current President of the Federation resigned the Treaty of Algernon, with both the Romulans and Klingons stating that the Federations dedication to peace would not see them research, implement or utilise cloaking technology in any form.
By that ingame logic, no Federation ship should have a cloaking device in any capacity. Be grateful with what you have, in the attempt to grasp more what you have may slip through your fingers.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I say they should add a r2d2
I don't know exactly, but thats because it is considered a console-power and not "pets" per say?
Also, the MVAM isn't a carrier.
If you reduced the timer on that, you would beed to reduce the timer all other c-store ships abilities.
And I can show you numerous episodes where K't'ingas battlecloaked, yet Klingon battlecruisers don't have battlecloaks in this game.
Why? Because this is a game where they gave this unique ability to the BoP.
I wonder. What are your thoughts, in regards to putting the Klingon escorts on par with the federation ones?
Please don't tell me that you believe the SB Defiant is outmatched by BOPs? If you do, I can only suggest you fly it against a Defiant, and see how terribly wrong you are. (If you comparing it to the Heghta, then I don't even know what to say.)
Defiant
Hull - 33,000
Weapons 4 (F), 3 (A)
CMDR TAC
LT. CMDR TAC
ENS TAC
LT. SCI
LT. ENG
5x TAC consoles
3x ENG consoles
2x SCI consoles
Turn Rate 17
+15 Weapons power
TRIBBLE Cloak
Ning'tao Bird-of-Prey
Hull - 16,500 (I remind you that a shuttle has 6,000!!!)
Weapons 4 (F), 2 (A)
CMDR UNI
LT. CMDR UNI
LT. CMDR UNI
LT. UNI
(There is nothing special about the BOFF setup. Its fairly obvious that one of them HAS to be an engineer. In fact I would say its shocking. Not only are you gimping into forcing LT.CMDR healing if you want to stay alive, but your LT.Uni is consumed in the process. IMO, if a player tries to even run one of the LT.CMDR slots as a TAC, they are going to be fighting a pointless battle trying to stay alive.)
3x TAC consoles
3x ENG consoles
3x SCI consoles
(According to STOwiki, this piece of garbage has -1 console compared to the Defiant! PS. Even if thats not the case, it's does make the slightest bit of difference. Personally I don't know of a single seasoned PvPer thats going to waste their time on this.)
Turn Rate 22
+15 Weapons power
B Cloak Whoop-di-$%^& Woop.
I should probably make another topic on this because I don't want to clog up the OP's thread, but I guess my point is less that the MVAE should be considered a carrier and more that the threat of spammable pets doesn't really make sense when some ships are designed solely around that premise.
It also already has one of the longest cooldowns (if not the longest?) in the game at 10 mins per section.
Basically I'd be happy if they simply kept the feature that pets died permanently until the cooldown was up again, but if you die you stay in the mode you entered until you explicitly leave it. I think that's a fair compromise
Sorry again for talking about this here, carry on!
vids and guides and stuff
[9:52] [Zone #11] Neal@trapper1532: im a omega force shadow oprative and a maoc elite camander and here i am taking water samples
Edit: Also, to the above poster, MVAM shouldn't be considered a carrier because separating ships function differently. Their pet deployment is more limited, in number (only one separating ship can deploy two pets at once) and frequency (carriers can replenish lost fighters immensely more readily than a separated ship can recombine and redeploy), their pets are a higher class than fighters and frigates, and separating alters the base ship's stats. We don't really have a formal definition of separating ship, but we also have a pretty loose definition of carrier as well.
I have no use for the 3rd Tactical Ensign skill and I do use cloak.
I've come to accept the Tactical Escort Retrofit's weaknesses and adapt to them.
The ships need to have some sort of disadvantage, otherwise everyone would have the same ship.
So, no, it wouldn't be canon to put a cloaking device on every Defiant class starship. The only one that had it was Deep Space Nine's Defiant.
*I don't remember if the second Defiant (renamed from the Sao Paulo) had one or not, or if the Sao Paulo is from a book or the show.
I'll level some "canon" on you, to justify the existence of Cloaks on Federation ships;
The USS Defiant (Defiant Class), was the first Federation ship to officially have a cloaking device. It was on loan from the Romulan Empire, in exchange for any and all information about the Gamma Quadrant. It was to be used ONLY while in the Gamma Quadrant. Prior to the Dominion War however, it was used sporadically while in the Alpha Quadrant, and for those few occasions, the reasoning was justified.
The Federation signed a treaty with the Romulans (Treaty of Algeron), which strictly prohibited the Federation from developing their own cloaking device. With the fall of the Romulan Senate in 2378, and the subsequent collapse of the Romulan Empire, the treaty became null and void, thus allowing Starfleet to both develop AND equip their ships with cloaking devices.
An unauthorized, and highly experimental "Phase Cloak", was developed by operatives within Starfleet Intelligence, possibly with the assistance of Section 31. The usage of the Phase Cloak was later covered up, and the technology was never utilized in greater scale.
Now, I personally think that ALL Cloaking Devices should be "Battle Cloak"-enabled, allowing players to cloak/decloak while in combat. The usage of the cloaking device while in combat, comes with the risk of immediate destruction, since you are vulnerable with lack of shields until made invisible by the cloak. I'd suggest dropping the "Battle" from the Battle Cloak name, and simply overwriting the non-combat "Cloak".
The Bird of Prey Retrofit "Enhanced Battle Cloak" would similarly be renamed to "Enhanced Cloak", and still provide the added benefit of being able to fire while cloaked.
Your forgetting thou, that Canon in STO includes 40 years of Star Trek history PLUS the written content of the "Path to 2409" series. I forget which entry it was, but I know that "STO Canon" allows cloaking devices to be used on Federation ships, since the Romulan Empire collapsed (after the destruction of Romulus).
The Sao Paulo hadn't appeared before. It was a new ship completed around or after the massacre at Chin'toka. It didn't have a cloak in the show. It got one in a couple books as a renewal of the same deal with the Romulans that got one on the first Defiant, but didn't have it anymore in another book set literally days afterward supposedly in the same continuity.
No, I know all that. The OP's justification was "the Defiant had one in the show", so I was responding to that.
Even with the restriction lifted, they still wouldn't put it on every single ship, not even every ship of a single class. That takes time and resources, both of which would be in short supply because of the constant state of war in this game. :P
I knew someone would know this. Thank you.
No, in fact "The Path to 2409" supports the exact opposite:
Starfleet Security admitted that the U.S.S. Kelso was testing a Federation cloaking device. The Romulans then ejected all Federation diplomats and ships from their space in protest, and Chancellor J'mpok recalled the Klingon ambassador to the Federation back to Qo'noS for "strategic discussions."
After the revelation that Starfleet was testing a cloaking device, tensions between the Federation, Romulans and Klingons were at their highest point since the destruction of the Romulan homeworld in 2387. After a full inquiry, six members of Starfleet Security were court-martialed.
It took three months for Federation President Aennik Okeg to convince the Romulans and the Klingons to send representatives to a summit to discuss the situation. When the meeting finally began, Okeg made the Federation's position clear. He apologized for the experiments into cloaking technology, and said that he had signed an executive order banning all research into or creation of Federation cloaking technology.
"The narrow legal view may be that the Treaty of Algeron ended when Romulus was destroyed," Okeg said. "The Romulan Star Empire we knew is gone, and you are a new people. What has not changed is the Federation's commitment to peace."
They prefer the road they are on which is just to let the KDF bleed out over time and eventually once it is so small deal the final death blow then
I do not agree with you that the defiant is less then the Jem hadar. I will tell you exactly why.
This is how the highest damage and most maneauvrable ship in the federation looks like (According to Cryptic)
1 Torp Front, 2 Dual cannons front, 1 Dual beam bank front.
1 Torp Aft, 1 Turret aft, 1 beam aft.
(This is basically how all ships are being supplied with when you first obtain them, Cryptic agrees with me that this is THE best ship layout and highest damage escort NO DOUBT)
2x Tactical Team I
1x Target Shield Subsystems I
Beam Overload 2
Rapid Fire 1
High Yield 2
Attack Pattern Beta 3.
Emergency power to shields 1. Engineering Team 1
Polarize Hull I, Jam Sensors II
With an awesome cloaking device and turnrate added to that its the most devastating ship of all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would actually, ACTUALLY EVEN WANT THIS SHIP TO BECOME BETTER WITH 4, yes ... you heard it, FOUR ENSIGN TACITCAL STATIONS, because there is just NOT ... NOT
N ... O .... T...
ENOUHG
ROOM on the defiant for ALL YOUR AWESOME rolePLAYING TACTICAL ABILITIES>
Where can i put my 2 dispersal patterns huh? I CANT!!! BECAUSE IT DOESNT HAVE ENOUGH TAC STATIONS!!! THE RULE IS IN THIS GAME, AND especially in pvp, the more tac stations u have, the more devastating you will become. Just think about it in pvp.. A Mix of beams, cannons, torps AND mines will make you.... I dont have the words for it.
Upgrade that Leituenant Commander Tactical to a second COMMANDER tactical station would even be more superb.
Add to that the Attack pattern doffs and Tactical team doffs and you will probably have 6 useless errrrr.... useful tac spots to fill
As for it not having the heals or taking much of a beating, my favorite recipie is to fly Defiants as an Engineer, and I can set one up to be pretty tanky for an escort. Miracle Worker, science team, engineering team, tactical team, polarize hull, brace for impact, rotate shield frequency, and then there's the shield batteries and phase modulator I always have with me. I can eat a surprising amount of damage if I pay attention to what I'm doing.
Please tell me you are just being funny. I retract my argument from the canon point of view. But I disagree that the defiant is comparable to the raptor. My point is that it is a CLOAKING CLASS ESCORT. The only one's the feds have. So what does this mean? Romulans come out does anyone really think they'll be happy if they can't battle cloak? So where will it leave the Defiant if or when they come out? Still the shi***est cloaking ship around?
The argument that you would have to reduce its hull and shields is lame. What is the point of the cloak then? So now we have half a** cloaking ships and ships that actually have cloaks with more utility? I'm not comparing the defiant to a cruiser. I'm comparing an escort to an escort. A bop is a kdf escort. The defiant is its equivalent in my opinion from the point of view that it is a cloaking class ship. This is where I'm coming from. And its a shame premade pvp'ers can't see this ship as an asset in their makeup.
I would hope that someone at Cryptic would see its not really being used for pvp and make it viable. Perhaps I am alone in wanting to play pvp competetively in the ship I love.
-Captain Tripwire-
Let no other Captain discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Debuffs and Disables be damned! Charge up your Backstep and Forge your build out of Lock Boxes, Consoles, and Flash Sales feeding off of only your pure will to chain, spam, and hax your way forward. You will not be forgotten to history.
So going by canon, the cloaking device on the defiant must be removed.
Do you still want to argue with canon?
The problem is not the defiant, its the jem hadar to be blatantly more powerful then other ships while it should not.
Please tell me you too are just being funny. I stand corrected about my argument from the canon point of view. But as I previously stated the defiant is not comparable to the raptor. My point is that it is a CLOAKING CLASS ESCORT. The only one's the feds have. So what does this mean? Romulans come out does anyone really think they'll be happy if they can't battle cloak? So where will it leave the Defiant if or when they come out? Still the shi***est cloaking ship around?
The argument that you would have to reduce its hull and shields is lame. What is the point of the cloak then? So now we have half a** cloaking ships and ships that actually have cloaks with more utility? I'm not comparing the defiant to a cruiser. I'm comparing an escort to an escort. A bop is a kdf escort. The defiant is its equivalent in my opinion from the point of view that it is a cloaking class ship. This is where I'm coming from.
-Captain Tripwire-
Let no other Captain discourage you from what you believe you can achieve in PvP. Debuffs and Disables be damned! Charge up your Backstep and Forge your build out of Lock Boxes, Consoles, and Flash Sales feeding off of only your pure will to chain, spam, and hax your way forward. You will not be forgotten to history.
^^^ This.
Battle Cloak only really gives utility to disengage and re-engage a target. There are already quite a few ways to do this.
The problem with the defiant is that it's hull, turn and shield stats are ancient compared to the slew of new ships that have been released. Just giving the ship battle cloak won't remedy any of that.
Then again, giving the only 2 Fed ships that can cloak, a battle cloak won't be the end of the KDF, Absurdly OP, or anything other than maybe convenient.
And for the record when I fly my Defiant, I ALWAYS cloak. It's good strategy, it's good for ganking the target your team is really going to engage.
The BoP is not an Escort, it is a Unique Raider Class, it turns better, lacks a rear weapon, has significantly less hull than an Escort and gets a Universal 11 BOFF power layout. There is no ship like that Fed side.
The Raptor has an Escort Hull rate, Escort Turn Rate, Escort Shield Rate, and Escort Weapon and BOFF layouts. How is it not comparable to the Defiant?
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Weren't some of the impressions of the newly available Aquarius Destroyer something like "A Fed BoP"?
The Aquarius Destroyer is a weaker version of a BoP since it's so weak and has no cloak, so it's even worse than a Fleet Saber or Defiant.
I would totally like it if it had 6 Tactical Consoles (7 for Fleet), 2 Engineering, and 2 Science Consoles (1 for Fleet), very high turn rate (Turn Rate 24) since it's so small, and had +20 Weapons Power Bonus, because it's pretty much a paper escort, it should be a very offensive "destroyer", running circles and destroying the enemy before it destroys them since it lacks cloak unlike the HoH'SuS.