I find this somewhat sad, the world class pilots (or Elite STF'ers, pick your term) have a lot to offer to the community at large in PuG groups... yes there are many inexperienced players who made it all t he way to level 50 without having to team once, and had no problem with the PVE content up to the STF's (which require some team dynamics), who are going to be resistant to advice or constructive criticism... but there are some that could, and would gladly listen to and heed some sage advice.
The key being is how that advice is presented. I've made quite a few friends from the PuG's that went awry for one reason or another, after it was over taking the time to explain the tactics... inviting them to my Vent server to run where I can talk instead of type... That has taken a mediocre player to (IMHO) a great player... enhanced their game play, and game experience (as it did mine). On the flip side, I have seen more than a few Elitist Ragers.
Point being, they will continue to be inexperienced until someone with experience gives them the time of day to help them improve.
Blockade, yes that was a great example how they should make more missions. That mission alone made me respec and enjoy my Engie in a Cruiser as a healer/Tank. Problem is it;s ONE mission and I still felt mostly useless in every other aspect of the game. and that one mission gets old over and over.
The problem is an Escort. and I speak from my own play, In an escort I can tank everything else as both a Tac or an Engie. Once in awhile Ill die, but its rare. and Im back in the fight to quick for that 1 death to matter. And both my escort toons are specced 6 points into threat.
Seems the threat skill is broken. With 0 points or 6 points I always feel the same amount of aggro. With the way Tac Team works, IT;s made escorts able to tank almost everything even while standing still.
Escorts have too high a shield and hull value, They arent true glass cannons like they should be. And yeah it seems the Devs are supporting escort gameplay more then the rest. I really wish there was a need for a cruiser in every event since thats my favorite ship. Luckily I still have a blast blowing stuff up fast in an escort. But I'd rather heal and do good DPS in a cruiser. IF a healer was needed. But when I can tank in an escort like I can, then I see a hleaer is only needed to heal people in an escort that DON'T know how to use them.
I think all the discussion about escorts, science and cruisers is really a lot of BS. The problem is the players and their ignorance, and sorry to say those sitting in cruisers are by far the most ignorant players around. Why? Because they can be.
A bad escort player generally explodes a lot, so they do one of two things, they figure out how to get tough or they make the easy move and switch to a cruiser.
A bad science vessel has a hard time doing any damage and either learns teamwork or moves to a cruiser.
The bad cruiser player doesn't do enough damage to agro anything, sits with all beam arrays rarely using most of them because they want to fly like an escort. When the escorts explode and they do get attacked all their heals are ready because they don't help the team at all so they think they are 10x tougher in the cruiser and are content to remain in ignorance.
The ideal STF would have one SV, one tank cruiser and three escorts, but STFs are all damage based.
The ideal blockade mission will have no escorts, its extremely difficult to keep every freighter alive in an escort (alone) and virtually impossible when Klingons use their insta-death weapon 2-3x in a few seconds. A science vessel or cruiser can easily pull enough agro and heal the freighters to win.
The fleet alert missions are crazy easy, its damage based but the enemies aren't elite status, anyone can take them on. If you could muster five good cruisers it'd be over fast, you put in three normal skilled cruisers and its a nightmare, they can't tank a fraction of what an experience escort can because they've never had to, and its why they lose all the time.
A good escort is fast, tough and does damage, but can only sustain fire for so long on elite levels before having to bail, even the tankiest of escorts.
A good science vessel is a team player, gathering enemies, debuffing and making the team more effective as a whole. Some science ships can put out pretty high damage if they know how.
A good cruiser is hard to break and dishes out moderate (at the minimum) support damage, if it isn't holding agro it should be healing the team member who is.
Just before the changes to the STF respawn timer I joined an ISE PUG just to see what would happen, 3 escorts and a cruiser were there, they just popped one after another on that tactical cube. There is no way they'd ever beat the thing in the STFs today, bad players are bad players no matter what they are in.
Anyone who is saying that science vessels don't help a team or cruisers have no purpose have no understanding of how combat works in this game.
A team of 5 escorts can do any STF, sure, but a team that has escorts, a science vessel, and a cruiser, is going to be able to do the same STFs easier and faster (assuming the players know what they're doing).
Having something like Gravity Well so the escorts can use their AoE abilities to the fullest is a huge help. As is the cruiser who can pull aggro, or failing that, help keep the escort being targeted alive longer is something I'd rather have than a extra escorts.
And of course there's the other abilities they bring to the table, from shield draining abilities to warp plasma and more.
A team of 5 escorts can do any STF, sure, but a team that has escorts, a science vessel, and a cruiser, is going to be able to do the same STFs easier and faster (assuming the players know what they're doing).
Having something like Gravity Well so the escorts can use their AoE abilities to the fullest is a huge help. As is the cruiser who can pull aggro, or failing that, help keep the escort being targeted alive longer is something I'd rather have than a extra escorts.
And of course there's the other abilities they bring to the table, from shield draining abilities to warp plasma and more.
in theory that is very true, but elite STF's kind of have become tankabel in escorts...especialy an engi in a heavy escort carrier. gravity well can be provided by the multivector and a sci flying one (like myself) can even dish out 3-4 million dmg in infected elite...maybe more.
so you got your tank, and your gravity well in an all escort group...each one dealing maybe 4-5 million dmg.
currently i'm running stf's with my klinogn sci in a guramba...and i want to brag a little about my 120k javaline crit on a transformer...i repeat, 120k with one single shot with a sci toon. thats nearly a 20% drop in the transformers health bar in 2 seconds.
the point i'm making: to take down the transformers you need burst...only escorts deliver this, even with a sci captain.
an engi captain in a heavy escort can tank any elite stf, so no need for any other shipclass.
It is not a change, it is just the base of STO combat system like you can see it in all the MMO.
When a target have the same potentiel in combat with 100 % of his HP (or structure points or other things like this) and 1 % of his HP : the only way that count is DPS. You have to kill it quick, absolutly no interest to have a target exhausted or something like that cause it can deal 100 % of his potential damage.
Scientists are useless cause :
- a team of 4 tactics and 1 scientist dont deliver more DPS than a team of 5 tactics (in fact the first team deliver less).
- 4 tactics in a team dont survive more with the help of 1 scientist cause tactics can survive by themselve.
Cruiser are useless cause :
- the system is based on DPS and a cruiser dont play in that register.
- an escort is actualy better to survive in a fight than a cruiser cause of defense stat that rules the game and the movement capacities and escape capacities of the escort.
If you want to see some change you have to think a new game where :
- the better escort never survive longer that the worst cruiser. In fact it is harder to sink a carrier than a zodiac except in STO world.
- make cruiser what they are : a weapon plateform who can be adapted in combat to their target and can supportb a long fight.
- make escort what they are : little ship who can deliver good damage if they are in number (not alone or in duo) ; not adaptative and unable to support a long fight.
This seems to be a better explanation to my point. DPS is king in all STFs and fleet missions. The timer is a problem. You have to kill fast and move on or lose. That is all I am trying to say here. 1 cruiser is good but u get 2 or 3 and the DPS just isn't enough to complete the goals. They need to relax on the timer some so Cruisers and SCI ships with lower dps are not a hinderance but a blessing. It really isn't about the balance of each ship. I do not think escorts are overpowered. and someone else said it, 5 carriers rock in any STF or fleet mission. Nothing better then ending up in a group with all carriers. I love it! but it rarely happens.
Been using the Fleet recon sci vessel in fleet events and pvp lately and it does pretty good.
I like it better then my carrier because i can actually manuver good enough to GW more regularly and on my preffered target instead of just whatever I can face soon enough.
The 4 tac consoles and manuverabilty also help me out DPS many escorts in pvp using single cannons, turrets and rapid fire. The 1.43 shield modifier gives me much more staying power then escorts so while they are busy spending half their time running away and healing or dying im still there cranking out dps. I don't think other sci vessels are very viable besides the recon sci vessel or Fleet recon sci vessel though, too low dps and/or manuverabilty for the others, or too weak shields and hull in the case of the Fleet Nova so use a carrier if you don't use the recon sci.
There are plenty of Great Captains out there, the reason they don't fly pugs is because there are plenty of them out there and they know how to find each other.
I find this somewhat sad, the world class pilots (or Elite STF'ers, pick your term) have a lot to offer to the community at large in PuG groups... yes there are many inexperienced players who made it all t he way to level 50 without having to team once, and had no problem with the PVE content up to the STF's (which require some team dynamics), who are going to be resistant to advice or constructive criticism... but there are some that could, and would gladly listen to and heed some sage advice.
The key being is how that advice is presented. I've made quite a few friends from the PuG's that went awry for one reason or another, after it was over taking the time to explain the tactics... inviting them to my Vent server to run where I can talk instead of type... That has taken a mediocre player to (IMHO) a great player... enhanced their game play, and game experience (as it did mine). On the flip side, I have seen more than a few Elitist Ragers.
Point being, they will continue to be inexperienced until someone with experience gives them the time of day to help them improve.
I respectfully disagree with your last statement here. There is just no possible way to teach somebody who does not want to learn. I have after a match explained why and how we lost an optional to one person ever. The reason is he actually asked what went wrong.
I've tried so hard with PUGs, I never insult them and I often try to ask nicely, some times I blurt out "Don't kill that name_here" but most of the time I try for "Please don't kill the Generator it will spawn a cube (KASE) name_here" and I get silence or profanity. Why should I subject myself to this kind of failure when I have found a group of like minded people who don't fail?
As for the information we're not hoarding it away there are guides on the forums and at least one person on DS9 or ESD would be happy to explain the strategies, so that must mean the people who don't know them don't want to know them.
The game doesn't do a great job of explaining why things happen but it does actually explain it, nobody bothers to read it. It's funny, we're damned if we ask PUGs to lift there game and we're damned when we switch to private for abandoning the PUGs. I've seen rage don't get me wrong, I told the guy raging to chill out, there's no optional in a Mirror Event and got him and the guy he was raging at both messaging me with random profanity.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I respectfully disagree with your last statement here. There is just no possible way to teach somebody who does not want to learn. I have after a match explained why and how we lost an optional to one person ever. The reason is he actually asked what went wrong.
I tried to cover that in the first part of my response. You are correct, there are those who will be resistant, even violently so, to constructive critisism, which based on the rest of you post... it appears that you have made a true effort to provide.
As for the information we're not hoarding it away there are guides on the forums and at least one person on DS9 or ESD would be happy to explain the strategies, so that must mean the people who don't know them don't want to know them.
My turn to respectfully disagree.. trying to find anything out in Zone chat is akin to picking up the sound of a pin dropping during a heavy metal concert (ok a slight exageration ). Or that most players have even shown up in the forums (I think its been said only 2-3% utilize the forums). From personal experience, I have made friends with several people who I offered, privately, to discuss tactics and what not. In the end it is beneficial to them. Yes, I do admit that I have gotten some, not so pleasant responses and suggestions on what I can do with my advice.
The game doesn't do a great job of explaining why things happen but it does actually explain it, nobody bothers to read it. It's funny, we're damned if we ask PUGs to lift there game and we're damned when we switch to private for abandoning the PUGs. I've seen rage don't get me wrong, I told the guy raging to chill out, there's no optional in a Mirror Event and got him and the guy he was raging at both messaging me with random profanity.
I am not damning you, please don't take it that way... personally I find it sadder that people are unwilling to learn, or that some think raging = teaching... and it seems like you encountered the perfect storm in the Mirror Event. To be perfectly honest, most matches I run are in private matches, or queue matches with at least 2 other known teammates with me... So I am also as guilty of not doing everything I can to assist...
I guess the point I was getting at is to not completely give up on queues, or PuGs... I may be an optimist thinking that we can improve the game... but it hasnt been beat out of me yet
Hey armax that was me who said that 5 carriers are good. That is my dream set up, well if the pilots are good. I am pretty good with the Atorx carrier and do very well in elite space STFs. Just wish I could find more carrier people.
Kyle
I have been in a few PVP matches and a few STF's with all carriers. It was complete ownage. You just can't beat an all carrier group. Its crazy seeing 5 ships with an armada of fighters tearing through everything.
But it seems that's the way things are, people have said there should be a gear check or an experience criteria before you can do Elite and get shouted down as unfair.
So we made our own system, and we're being told not PUGing it is unfair.
But yes having a conversation on ESD or DS9 isn't the easiest but that's how I learnt, well actually I found somebody willing to explain it and we went to his bridge. But we are getting so off topic.
I was once DKnight1000, apparently I had taken my own name so now I'm DKnight0001. If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why. When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I was thinking the same thing about cruisers. They are becoming more useless as the game moves forward. Ever since they added the Duty officer system an escort can tank almost as good as a cruiser and the best thing about it is that you don?t get the negative aspects of the cruiser like the slow turn rate and the lack of weapon buffs.
Its seems that this game has shifted into High DPS Only missions and the Cruisers are having a hard time keeping up.
I run the dreadnought as a giant hull-tanking escort using cannon doffs and Aux2ID boff skills. Maneuvering her can be a trip to the Mugato's den for the first time, but ships are like girls, you just gotta learn how to push her buttons.
If everyone were truly at one with their craft, we'd stop having these threads. But stupidity is as common as hydrogen, so the msg is really... stop pugging and save your tears.
"Last Engage! Magical Girl Origami-san" is in print! Now with three times more rainbows.
1. a lot of boff abilities aren't too hot, especially for sci. The current situation with the 20 man has bassiclly made the CC of science a lot more valuable, and ES is really useful for Cruisers, but there's a ton that are still bassiclly pure junk, and a bunch more that are only semi-effective.
2. The only heal strong enough to matter worth a damm on an NPC against concentrated enemy fire is extend sheilds. Everyting else just dosen't put the necessery HPS through, (the big damage resistance boost plays a big part too as it's a flat % with no diminishing returns, (good thing though)). This combined with WAY too many NPC's being hardcoded to ignore any amount of threat on them makes the ability of a cruiser to tank huge amounts of damage kind of pointless. Beyond it's very effective ES it dosen't bring anything much thats really effective at keeping the NPC's alive
3. Point 1 and 2 kind of feeds back. Some situatuions really don't faour specific shiops, or need very specific setups. Effective crowd control in phases 3 and 4 of the 20 man requires TBR and grav well to both keep them at a distance when grav well is on CD, and then pin them down in one spot once it's off CD. The enemies in blokade are so spread otu and so ignore threat generation that it's hard to effectivlly crowd control a significant number of them at once, (not to mention some use EPTE3), placing a strong emphesis on heals, where only ES is a valid means of doing it over the full cycle.
You bassiclly end up with a situation where specific builds requiring specific setups are required to reach effective use in a specific encounter. Any variation on that and the whole thing falls apart leaving you with a weak ship. Except escorts. DPS is allways useful so a non-situation specific escort build is very useful.
IMHO there are several issues:
You bassiclly end up with a situation where specific builds requiring specific setups are required to reach effective use in a specific encounter. Any variation on that and the whole thing falls apart leaving you with a weak ship. Except escorts. DPS is allways useful so a non-situation specific escort build is very useful.
Sigh...couldn't agree more. Sadly, and with the cost of Respeccing, I'm done with specific builds. Burned through 9 Respecs with my engineer alone trying to make her good in a cruiser, Then back to escort, then to carrier, then back to cruiser, then Escort, etc. But when most maps makes you feel...sub par at best in a cruiser. If only some engineer boff skills ACTUALLY did more then heal. Or perhaps make them useless skills do something else.
Hell make Aceton Beam etc do some serious damage, or DEM, etc. Make boarding party do more that right there would MAKE MY GAME. lol. Love the Idea of Boarding party, but make it mean something.
AS it is an Engie in a Escort feels like the best of both worlds, You do good damage yet make a Escort not as Squishy.
Hell my Fleet Patrol Escort has 11k Shields and 47k Hull.
I can tank way too good in an escort, so any healboat around doesnt matter to me.
I was thinking the same thing about cruisers. They are becoming more useless as the game moves forward. Ever since they added the Duty officer system an escort can tank almost as good as a cruiser and the best thing about it is that you don?t get the negative aspects of the cruiser like the slow turn rate and the lack of weapon buffs.
Its seems that this game has shifted into High DPS Only missions and the Cruisers are having a hard time keeping up.
Can't disagree with the logic and general feelings in this topic.
For the amount of work needed to run a cruiser that tanks well and kills things, a Defiant or PatEsc can do the work twice better and with less frustration. TT, AP, CRF and TS and watch things go boom in one or two passes, rinse and repeat.
I'd say with the tactical trends presented in canon (DS9 specifically), the role of the cruiser as a lineship is vastly diminished when ships like the Defiant and Valiant have the potential conduct decisive deep strikes against targets many times their size.
These little 'destroyers' are also surprisingly hard to kill.
Sure, the Excelsior retrofit could hold out against the Defiant, but just holding out is not enough when two Defiants could have taken out two Starfleet cruisers with ease by simply ganging up on each cruiser in turn.
The exact same situation exists in STO gameplay, pound for pound, the Escort is going to win any sort of engagement simply because it can mount 4 DHCs and CRF3 anything into oblivion.
Face it, with the right piloting skills and boff power management, a Patrol Escort is very tanky too and so are all other escorts which can easily shrug off beam array damage and blow cruisers out of the water eliminating the threat in seconds.
STO's game engine, being so short ranged and with ship speeds so fast (on APO), definitely favours Escort type fast paced gameplay as cruisers have very limited actual stopping power against determined opposition, because they rely too much on beam array damage over time.
I'm not really referring to PvE where the occasional use of repulsors and tractor beams can save the day, but the general gameplay setup as a whole.
In canon it was supposed to be a fact that phaser cannons had a shorter effective range than beam arrays, but you don't see the Defiant in the shows stopped by beam fire, do you? It simply evades them all and closes rapidly for the kill using Attack Pattern Omega.
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
For some odd reason, I find more satisfaction in slowboating with a cruiser (or my new carrier) than I do going 'pew pew' with an escort. Am I insane?
I feel the same way - its more epic doing a TNG type attack pattern in an odyssey and doing 1300 beam array damage per hit on things at range 9.9 but its a deceptive feeling when a tiny little Patrol Escort could just dive bomb the target and blow it up instantly in a single pass, no broadsiding or fancy maneuvering needed
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
I feel the same way - its more epic doing a TNG type attack pattern in an odyssey and doing 1300 beam array damage per hit on things at range 9.9 but its a deceptive feeling when a tiny little Patrol Escort could just dive bomb the target and blow it up instantly in a single pass, no broadsiding or fancy maneuvering needed
Indeed, though I'm now taking a liking to carriers
Although actually maybe I'm looking at it wrong. My prob is I get hung up on the fact you can make dil, turn dil into Zen. Buy things for free type mindset.
Got my Fleet Patrol for free for my Tac, took 9 days with 3 toons. Made enough dil to Zen for 2 FSM, made enough EC to buy 2 More.
A cruiser slows that down bigtime, so I put her in a Escort to speed it up so I could do it within the time I get to play. Think I need to get outta that mindset. I really want my Engineer in a Fleet Star Cruiser, Love that ship. Then Ill just stop caring about Zen points for free and relax and play. lol
I dunno, I go back and forth. I love the dread but everytime Im in it a couple hours later it hits me that it takes longer to kill certain things so I get her out of it. lol
Is there any kind of good damage build one can make for an Engineer in a Star cruiser/ Dreadnought? lol. I've tried about everything but maybe I'm missing something. Hell ill just make her a for fun toon and go back to using Boarding Party and other useless fun skills.
Star cruiser is not that bad really. If you want single target DPS you can't go wrong with polaron cannons and CRF 1 with Aux2Batt1. The practical recharge time for CRF1 becomes about 9 seconds, if you have 3 blue or better technicians since CRF1 recharge commences immediately after power activation (meaning, it starts recharging even as you discharge Galactica cannon spam).
For the cannon assault role I prefer the star cruiser to the assault cruiser as it tanks better with the additional Science ensign.
For engineering toons the EPS Power Transfer buff can be a great help to move the cruiser faster and also keep weapons and shield power at 125.
The only issue here is you need to get used to chaining aux2batt in the middle of EPTS and other attack powers like this:
TT1
CRF1
EPTS3
TSS2
PH1
Aux2Batt
TT1
CRF1
EPTS3
RSP1 (if needed)
Aux2Batt
You notice Aux2Batt builds don't need doubled up RSP or EPTS3 as all boff powers have their recharge time cut by 30% each time Aux2Batt is activated.
Every time you activate Aux2Batt you notice all power levels are literally pegged to 100+ while Aux is zero. Of course, on team heal mode you don't use Aux2batt until after all healing powers are active.
If using MU Assault Cruiser, add TS1 spam to CRF1 spam every time Aux2Batt is activated, at the cost of having one less science power (in my case I toss out PH1).
STF Flight Instructor since Early 2012. Newbies are the reason why STO lives and breathes today. Do not discriminate.
Could it also be that Tactical players in escorts have access to large amounts of stackable damage increasing buffs? Attack pattern alpha 30% base, exocomp 10% attack pattern omega 10%, go down fighting 40%, scatter volley 25% base or rappid fire 50% base, tactical team buff.
So, using scatter, thats a 55% base damage buff and a 60% general damage damage buff increase.
Thats excluding any resistance debuff on the target.
Well while we are here talking about cruiser not being enough dpsy a new fed ship is coming out of the shipyards and is going to be a hard hiter cruiser most likely, so i wonder if a new wave of damage dealers cruisers are going to emerge, specially for feds coz i guess klingons are well rn with the fleet vor'cha and k't'inga that is see them heavy hiters all the way and love them also there is the d'kora that well speced hit pretty hard.
Obiously they are not going to be as dpsy as escorts but i warn you cruisers with 3 tac consoles and more bites hard and in a long combat one vs one against any escort they get the uper hand i guess.
1 cruiser = 2 escorts in DPE (nearly right its damage per engagement)
An escort with an AVERAGE pilot is on target for 15 seconds per minute
An escort with a World class (pve master) pilot might manage 45 seconds
A cruiser can be on target for the full minute
I'm sorry I haven't read the entire topic yet (I'm up to here) but I have to make an aside before I continue on.
This statement is completely false.
In anything that tracks Damage Per Encounter (think Starbase 24) I can out 'DPE' everyone in there with an escort. You do not need DHCs pr DCs on an escort to do more damage.
Same goes for every STF I have ever run. I only get out DPS'd by the rare other escort.
Go grab ACT if you think I am wrong. Run it with your Cruiser in some high end STF or do some plays in Gorn Minefield / Starbase 23 / Mirror Incursion.
Cruisers who were designed to do damage over time cant complete the missions because they need more time, and instead of looking at why the Cruisers were designed to function in that capacity the proposed solution is to alter the conditions of the 'test'.
Cruisers have *never* really been the mainstay of this game. They can deal damage sure, but when it comes down to it an escort does that miles better. As for tanking, the "glass cannon" whining back in the early days led to escorts getting buffed well outside the danger zone.
Because of all that, the majority of the game comes down to simply killing things quickly, which the escort is the best for. Even Starbase Blockade is easily managble in an escort if you give it a couple of heals.
I used to main as a cruiser captain and while I got the most damage I could out of a cruiser, it's was tickle damage compared to that of an escorts. So I put my cruiser in mothballs, jumped into an escort and haven't looked back since (except when i feel like I'm not playing a Trek game). I have noticed only a slight drop in tankability, but noticed a huge jump in damage dealing. Space combat sections are done in a quarter of the time, with less hassle and less effort.
A large part of the reason for this is simply down to the firepower of dual cannons/dual heavy cannons, which is also why I haven't dropped my Klingon battlecruiser.
Cruisers who were designed to do damage over time cant complete the missions because they need more time, and instead of looking at why the Cruisers were designed to function in that capacity the proposed solution is to alter the conditions of the 'test'.
Kirk would be so proud.
Cruisers aren't designed to do damage overtime, they're designed to tank. Problem is tanking isn't all that important in PvE and the other two classes can tank quite well anyway.
Heck, in the long run a sci-ship will be a better damage dealer then a cruiser(except the science Oddy), with it's sensor analysis skill. A 6 beam sci-ship will deal more damage then an 8 beam cruiser but without the power drain.
Cruisers are designed to tank.
Problem is, while tanking is very important, most Cruiser Captains don't even try to.
So, even though a well-played glass cannon explodes quite a bit (those played poorly don't get shot at and think they're surviving heavy fire), one learns to make do and try to maximise survivability on one's 'scort.
If you don't mind taking your time, cruisers are a lot of fun. The problem Crytpic has is digging a hole deeper by the patch that makes cruisers less and less desirable for group content, especially when timers are involved. I have nothing against escorts, I just don't want to play one. Until Cryptic can't sell cruisers to anyone anymore I think this problem will continue.
Comments
I find this somewhat sad, the world class pilots (or Elite STF'ers, pick your term) have a lot to offer to the community at large in PuG groups... yes there are many inexperienced players who made it all t he way to level 50 without having to team once, and had no problem with the PVE content up to the STF's (which require some team dynamics), who are going to be resistant to advice or constructive criticism... but there are some that could, and would gladly listen to and heed some sage advice.
The key being is how that advice is presented. I've made quite a few friends from the PuG's that went awry for one reason or another, after it was over taking the time to explain the tactics... inviting them to my Vent server to run where I can talk instead of type... That has taken a mediocre player to (IMHO) a great player... enhanced their game play, and game experience (as it did mine). On the flip side, I have seen more than a few Elitist Ragers.
Point being, they will continue to be inexperienced until someone with experience gives them the time of day to help them improve.
Star Trek Online, Now with out the Trek....
The problem is an Escort. and I speak from my own play, In an escort I can tank everything else as both a Tac or an Engie. Once in awhile Ill die, but its rare. and Im back in the fight to quick for that 1 death to matter. And both my escort toons are specced 6 points into threat.
Seems the threat skill is broken. With 0 points or 6 points I always feel the same amount of aggro. With the way Tac Team works, IT;s made escorts able to tank almost everything even while standing still.
Escorts have too high a shield and hull value, They arent true glass cannons like they should be. And yeah it seems the Devs are supporting escort gameplay more then the rest. I really wish there was a need for a cruiser in every event since thats my favorite ship. Luckily I still have a blast blowing stuff up fast in an escort. But I'd rather heal and do good DPS in a cruiser. IF a healer was needed. But when I can tank in an escort like I can, then I see a hleaer is only needed to heal people in an escort that DON'T know how to use them.
A bad escort player generally explodes a lot, so they do one of two things, they figure out how to get tough or they make the easy move and switch to a cruiser.
A bad science vessel has a hard time doing any damage and either learns teamwork or moves to a cruiser.
The bad cruiser player doesn't do enough damage to agro anything, sits with all beam arrays rarely using most of them because they want to fly like an escort. When the escorts explode and they do get attacked all their heals are ready because they don't help the team at all so they think they are 10x tougher in the cruiser and are content to remain in ignorance.
The ideal STF would have one SV, one tank cruiser and three escorts, but STFs are all damage based.
The ideal blockade mission will have no escorts, its extremely difficult to keep every freighter alive in an escort (alone) and virtually impossible when Klingons use their insta-death weapon 2-3x in a few seconds. A science vessel or cruiser can easily pull enough agro and heal the freighters to win.
The fleet alert missions are crazy easy, its damage based but the enemies aren't elite status, anyone can take them on. If you could muster five good cruisers it'd be over fast, you put in three normal skilled cruisers and its a nightmare, they can't tank a fraction of what an experience escort can because they've never had to, and its why they lose all the time.
A good escort is fast, tough and does damage, but can only sustain fire for so long on elite levels before having to bail, even the tankiest of escorts.
A good science vessel is a team player, gathering enemies, debuffing and making the team more effective as a whole. Some science ships can put out pretty high damage if they know how.
A good cruiser is hard to break and dishes out moderate (at the minimum) support damage, if it isn't holding agro it should be healing the team member who is.
Just before the changes to the STF respawn timer I joined an ISE PUG just to see what would happen, 3 escorts and a cruiser were there, they just popped one after another on that tactical cube. There is no way they'd ever beat the thing in the STFs today, bad players are bad players no matter what they are in.
Anyone who is saying that science vessels don't help a team or cruisers have no purpose have no understanding of how combat works in this game.
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A team of 5 escorts can do any STF, sure, but a team that has escorts, a science vessel, and a cruiser, is going to be able to do the same STFs easier and faster (assuming the players know what they're doing).
Having something like Gravity Well so the escorts can use their AoE abilities to the fullest is a huge help. As is the cruiser who can pull aggro, or failing that, help keep the escort being targeted alive longer is something I'd rather have than a extra escorts.
And of course there's the other abilities they bring to the table, from shield draining abilities to warp plasma and more.
in theory that is very true, but elite STF's kind of have become tankabel in escorts...especialy an engi in a heavy escort carrier. gravity well can be provided by the multivector and a sci flying one (like myself) can even dish out 3-4 million dmg in infected elite...maybe more.
so you got your tank, and your gravity well in an all escort group...each one dealing maybe 4-5 million dmg.
currently i'm running stf's with my klinogn sci in a guramba...and i want to brag a little about my 120k javaline crit on a transformer...i repeat, 120k with one single shot with a sci toon. thats nearly a 20% drop in the transformers health bar in 2 seconds.
the point i'm making: to take down the transformers you need burst...only escorts deliver this, even with a sci captain.
an engi captain in a heavy escort can tank any elite stf, so no need for any other shipclass.
This seems to be a better explanation to my point. DPS is king in all STFs and fleet missions. The timer is a problem. You have to kill fast and move on or lose. That is all I am trying to say here. 1 cruiser is good but u get 2 or 3 and the DPS just isn't enough to complete the goals. They need to relax on the timer some so Cruisers and SCI ships with lower dps are not a hinderance but a blessing. It really isn't about the balance of each ship. I do not think escorts are overpowered. and someone else said it, 5 carriers rock in any STF or fleet mission. Nothing better then ending up in a group with all carriers. I love it! but it rarely happens.
I like it better then my carrier because i can actually manuver good enough to GW more regularly and on my preffered target instead of just whatever I can face soon enough.
The 4 tac consoles and manuverabilty also help me out DPS many escorts in pvp using single cannons, turrets and rapid fire. The 1.43 shield modifier gives me much more staying power then escorts so while they are busy spending half their time running away and healing or dying im still there cranking out dps. I don't think other sci vessels are very viable besides the recon sci vessel or Fleet recon sci vessel though, too low dps and/or manuverabilty for the others, or too weak shields and hull in the case of the Fleet Nova so use a carrier if you don't use the recon sci.
There are plenty of Great Captains out there, the reason they don't fly pugs is because there are plenty of them out there and they know how to find each other.
I respectfully disagree with your last statement here. There is just no possible way to teach somebody who does not want to learn. I have after a match explained why and how we lost an optional to one person ever. The reason is he actually asked what went wrong.
I've tried so hard with PUGs, I never insult them and I often try to ask nicely, some times I blurt out "Don't kill that name_here" but most of the time I try for "Please don't kill the Generator it will spawn a cube (KASE) name_here" and I get silence or profanity. Why should I subject myself to this kind of failure when I have found a group of like minded people who don't fail?
As for the information we're not hoarding it away there are guides on the forums and at least one person on DS9 or ESD would be happy to explain the strategies, so that must mean the people who don't know them don't want to know them.
The game doesn't do a great job of explaining why things happen but it does actually explain it, nobody bothers to read it. It's funny, we're damned if we ask PUGs to lift there game and we're damned when we switch to private for abandoning the PUGs. I've seen rage don't get me wrong, I told the guy raging to chill out, there's no optional in a Mirror Event and got him and the guy he was raging at both messaging me with random profanity.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I tried to cover that in the first part of my response. You are correct, there are those who will be resistant, even violently so, to constructive critisism, which based on the rest of you post... it appears that you have made a true effort to provide.
My turn to respectfully disagree.. trying to find anything out in Zone chat is akin to picking up the sound of a pin dropping during a heavy metal concert (ok a slight exageration
I am not damning you, please don't take it that way... personally I find it sadder that people are unwilling to learn, or that some think raging = teaching... and it seems like you encountered the perfect storm in the Mirror Event. To be perfectly honest, most matches I run are in private matches, or queue matches with at least 2 other known teammates with me... So I am also as guilty of not doing everything I can to assist...
I guess the point I was getting at is to not completely give up on queues, or PuGs... I may be an optimist thinking that we can improve the game... but it hasnt been beat out of me yet
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But it seems that's the way things are, people have said there should be a gear check or an experience criteria before you can do Elite and get shouted down as unfair.
So we made our own system, and we're being told not PUGing it is unfair.
But yes having a conversation on ESD or DS9 isn't the easiest but that's how I learnt, well actually I found somebody willing to explain it and we went to his bridge. But we are getting so off topic.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
Its seems that this game has shifted into High DPS Only missions and the Cruisers are having a hard time keeping up.
If everyone were truly at one with their craft, we'd stop having these threads. But stupidity is as common as hydrogen, so the msg is really... stop pugging and save your tears.
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1. a lot of boff abilities aren't too hot, especially for sci. The current situation with the 20 man has bassiclly made the CC of science a lot more valuable, and ES is really useful for Cruisers, but there's a ton that are still bassiclly pure junk, and a bunch more that are only semi-effective.
2. The only heal strong enough to matter worth a damm on an NPC against concentrated enemy fire is extend sheilds. Everyting else just dosen't put the necessery HPS through, (the big damage resistance boost plays a big part too as it's a flat % with no diminishing returns, (good thing though)). This combined with WAY too many NPC's being hardcoded to ignore any amount of threat on them makes the ability of a cruiser to tank huge amounts of damage kind of pointless. Beyond it's very effective ES it dosen't bring anything much thats really effective at keeping the NPC's alive
3. Point 1 and 2 kind of feeds back. Some situatuions really don't faour specific shiops, or need very specific setups. Effective crowd control in phases 3 and 4 of the 20 man requires TBR and grav well to both keep them at a distance when grav well is on CD, and then pin them down in one spot once it's off CD. The enemies in blokade are so spread otu and so ignore threat generation that it's hard to effectivlly crowd control a significant number of them at once, (not to mention some use EPTE3), placing a strong emphesis on heals, where only ES is a valid means of doing it over the full cycle.
You bassiclly end up with a situation where specific builds requiring specific setups are required to reach effective use in a specific encounter. Any variation on that and the whole thing falls apart leaving you with a weak ship. Except escorts. DPS is allways useful so a non-situation specific escort build is very useful.
Sigh...couldn't agree more. Sadly, and with the cost of Respeccing, I'm done with specific builds. Burned through 9 Respecs with my engineer alone trying to make her good in a cruiser, Then back to escort, then to carrier, then back to cruiser, then Escort, etc. But when most maps makes you feel...sub par at best in a cruiser. If only some engineer boff skills ACTUALLY did more then heal. Or perhaps make them useless skills do something else.
Hell make Aceton Beam etc do some serious damage, or DEM, etc. Make boarding party do more that right there would MAKE MY GAME. lol. Love the Idea of Boarding party, but make it mean something.
AS it is an Engie in a Escort feels like the best of both worlds, You do good damage yet make a Escort not as Squishy.
Hell my Fleet Patrol Escort has 11k Shields and 47k Hull.
I can tank way too good in an escort, so any healboat around doesnt matter to me.
Can't disagree with the logic and general feelings in this topic.
For the amount of work needed to run a cruiser that tanks well and kills things, a Defiant or PatEsc can do the work twice better and with less frustration. TT, AP, CRF and TS and watch things go boom in one or two passes, rinse and repeat.
I'd say with the tactical trends presented in canon (DS9 specifically), the role of the cruiser as a lineship is vastly diminished when ships like the Defiant and Valiant have the potential conduct decisive deep strikes against targets many times their size.
These little 'destroyers' are also surprisingly hard to kill.
Sure, the Excelsior retrofit could hold out against the Defiant, but just holding out is not enough when two Defiants could have taken out two Starfleet cruisers with ease by simply ganging up on each cruiser in turn.
The exact same situation exists in STO gameplay, pound for pound, the Escort is going to win any sort of engagement simply because it can mount 4 DHCs and CRF3 anything into oblivion.
Face it, with the right piloting skills and boff power management, a Patrol Escort is very tanky too and so are all other escorts which can easily shrug off beam array damage and blow cruisers out of the water eliminating the threat in seconds.
STO's game engine, being so short ranged and with ship speeds so fast (on APO), definitely favours Escort type fast paced gameplay as cruisers have very limited actual stopping power against determined opposition, because they rely too much on beam array damage over time.
I'm not really referring to PvE where the occasional use of repulsors and tractor beams can save the day, but the general gameplay setup as a whole.
In canon it was supposed to be a fact that phaser cannons had a shorter effective range than beam arrays, but you don't see the Defiant in the shows stopped by beam fire, do you? It simply evades them all and closes rapidly for the kill using Attack Pattern Omega.
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I feel the same way - its more epic doing a TNG type attack pattern in an odyssey and doing 1300 beam array damage per hit on things at range 9.9 but its a deceptive feeling when a tiny little Patrol Escort could just dive bomb the target and blow it up instantly in a single pass, no broadsiding or fancy maneuvering needed
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Indeed, though I'm now taking a liking to carriers
Got my Fleet Patrol for free for my Tac, took 9 days with 3 toons. Made enough dil to Zen for 2 FSM, made enough EC to buy 2 More.
A cruiser slows that down bigtime, so I put her in a Escort to speed it up so I could do it within the time I get to play. Think I need to get outta that mindset. I really want my Engineer in a Fleet Star Cruiser, Love that ship. Then Ill just stop caring about Zen points for free and relax and play. lol
I dunno, I go back and forth. I love the dread but everytime Im in it a couple hours later it hits me that it takes longer to kill certain things so I get her out of it. lol
Is there any kind of good damage build one can make for an Engineer in a Star cruiser/ Dreadnought? lol. I've tried about everything but maybe I'm missing something. Hell ill just make her a for fun toon and go back to using Boarding Party and other useless fun skills.
For the cannon assault role I prefer the star cruiser to the assault cruiser as it tanks better with the additional Science ensign.
For engineering toons the EPS Power Transfer buff can be a great help to move the cruiser faster and also keep weapons and shield power at 125.
The only issue here is you need to get used to chaining aux2batt in the middle of EPTS and other attack powers like this:
TT1
CRF1
EPTS3
TSS2
PH1
Aux2Batt
TT1
CRF1
EPTS3
RSP1 (if needed)
Aux2Batt
You notice Aux2Batt builds don't need doubled up RSP or EPTS3 as all boff powers have their recharge time cut by 30% each time Aux2Batt is activated.
Every time you activate Aux2Batt you notice all power levels are literally pegged to 100+ while Aux is zero. Of course, on team heal mode you don't use Aux2batt until after all healing powers are active.
If using MU Assault Cruiser, add TS1 spam to CRF1 spam every time Aux2Batt is activated, at the cost of having one less science power (in my case I toss out PH1).
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So, using scatter, thats a 55% base damage buff and a 60% general damage damage buff increase.
Thats excluding any resistance debuff on the target.
Obiously they are not going to be as dpsy as escorts but i warn you cruisers with 3 tac consoles and more bites hard and in a long combat one vs one against any escort they get the uper hand i guess.
I'm sorry I haven't read the entire topic yet (I'm up to here) but I have to make an aside before I continue on.
This statement is completely false.
In anything that tracks Damage Per Encounter (think Starbase 24) I can out 'DPE' everyone in there with an escort. You do not need DHCs pr DCs on an escort to do more damage.
Same goes for every STF I have ever run. I only get out DPS'd by the rare other escort.
Go grab ACT if you think I am wrong. Run it with your Cruiser in some high end STF or do some plays in Gorn Minefield / Starbase 23 / Mirror Incursion.
Also bragging rights:
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Cruisers who were designed to do damage over time cant complete the missions because they need more time, and instead of looking at why the Cruisers were designed to function in that capacity the proposed solution is to alter the conditions of the 'test'.
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Because of all that, the majority of the game comes down to simply killing things quickly, which the escort is the best for. Even Starbase Blockade is easily managble in an escort if you give it a couple of heals.
I used to main as a cruiser captain and while I got the most damage I could out of a cruiser, it's was tickle damage compared to that of an escorts. So I put my cruiser in mothballs, jumped into an escort and haven't looked back since (except when i feel like I'm not playing a Trek game). I have noticed only a slight drop in tankability, but noticed a huge jump in damage dealing. Space combat sections are done in a quarter of the time, with less hassle and less effort.
A large part of the reason for this is simply down to the firepower of dual cannons/dual heavy cannons, which is also why I haven't dropped my Klingon battlecruiser.
Cruisers aren't designed to do damage overtime, they're designed to tank. Problem is tanking isn't all that important in PvE and the other two classes can tank quite well anyway.
Heck, in the long run a sci-ship will be a better damage dealer then a cruiser(except the science Oddy), with it's sensor analysis skill. A 6 beam sci-ship will deal more damage then an 8 beam cruiser but without the power drain.
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Problem is, while tanking is very important, most Cruiser Captains don't even try to.
So, even though a well-played glass cannon explodes quite a bit (those played poorly don't get shot at and think they're surviving heavy fire), one learns to make do and try to maximise survivability on one's 'scort.