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Carriers, and Defiants
astarte05
Member Posts: 35 Arc User
So, something else I was wondering...the Federation came out with a carrier, the Atrox, and later, a carrier-escort hybrid, the Armetige. These were in response to the KDF's voQuv, and the Orion carriers, since IIRC the backstory was, pretty much, the carriers were owning face.
So, if the voQuv can launch B'Rels, and B'Roths (sp)...why not make a Starfleet carrier that can launch Defiants?
Here's why I say that. The Defiant-class is only ten meters longer than the B'Rel, 120 meters to the BoP's 110. They're about the same in crew complement, 30-40 bodies. Since the Defiant is this little nugget with warp nacelles, it'd be easier to store, and launch, than the BoPs. I mean, I'm pretty sure all the BoPs, not just the Hoh'SuS variant that sits in the back of the Bortasque, have to fold their wings for storage, like carrier-based planes do (or did, I know they did in WW2 but don't know about modern-day, and I'd rather not assume). But with the Defiant, they wouldn't need to add much, if anything, to its design.
So, make a carrier that can launch Defiants, and maybe a watered down version of the ship so it fights more like a BoP, cause if I remember, there's quite the level difference between BoPs and Defiants. Make it the usual 2000 ZEN, hell, make it 4000 (I mean people paid $50 for Odyssey/Bortasque bundles, so someone would still buy it), give it a little backstory, like "The Federation wanted to keep going with its carrier theme, after watching the success of the Atrox and Armetige, and the KDF can launch actual ships, not just fighters or shuttles, so that became the next step", and there you have it.
I mean...for those of you that remember Dominion Wars, the Cardassian Hutet-class could launch two frigates (at least in the intro movie). So, if Cardassians can do it, Klingons can do it, why can't this entire franchise's main protagonists do it?
Thoughts?
So, if the voQuv can launch B'Rels, and B'Roths (sp)...why not make a Starfleet carrier that can launch Defiants?
Here's why I say that. The Defiant-class is only ten meters longer than the B'Rel, 120 meters to the BoP's 110. They're about the same in crew complement, 30-40 bodies. Since the Defiant is this little nugget with warp nacelles, it'd be easier to store, and launch, than the BoPs. I mean, I'm pretty sure all the BoPs, not just the Hoh'SuS variant that sits in the back of the Bortasque, have to fold their wings for storage, like carrier-based planes do (or did, I know they did in WW2 but don't know about modern-day, and I'd rather not assume). But with the Defiant, they wouldn't need to add much, if anything, to its design.
So, make a carrier that can launch Defiants, and maybe a watered down version of the ship so it fights more like a BoP, cause if I remember, there's quite the level difference between BoPs and Defiants. Make it the usual 2000 ZEN, hell, make it 4000 (I mean people paid $50 for Odyssey/Bortasque bundles, so someone would still buy it), give it a little backstory, like "The Federation wanted to keep going with its carrier theme, after watching the success of the Atrox and Armetige, and the KDF can launch actual ships, not just fighters or shuttles, so that became the next step", and there you have it.
I mean...for those of you that remember Dominion Wars, the Cardassian Hutet-class could launch two frigates (at least in the intro movie). So, if Cardassians can do it, Klingons can do it, why can't this entire franchise's main protagonists do it?
Thoughts?
Post edited by astarte05 on
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I mean the Escort carrier really cleans the floor with the Orion Deck Carriers, so why add even more power to it? And the Attrox is considered one of the best Science Ships in the game so why add more muscle to it.
PvP is already dead, many KDF players simply refuse to play it due to the overpowering power a lot of these new PWE era Federation vessels have.
Anyways, I'm rather against having a frigate level ship for an Atrox. It would be nice, but at the same time, I must go with the above poster, it'd be removing a unique thing from the KDF side, which I know is something often repeated, and often true.
I don't think that the Escort Carrier would be able to launch the frigates though, it'd be like a Flight Deck Carrier trying to launch BoPs.
That said, if the Atrox could, it'd be ships more like the Aquarius escort than a Defiant.
Even if they did, I think that the ships should be a support ship, like...a mix between what the Vulcan ship can launch, and something like the Galaxy's Saucer section. A ship that could have a couple phaser beam arrays and photon torpedoes, but mostly spend it's time tossing like an Engineering team, a TSS 1, that kind of stuff onto a ship or other target.
So at least that way if Feds got a frigate level ship, it should be as a 'counter' of sorts to what the KDF frigates are.
I still think that Feds shouldn't get it though.
Like, look at it this way, this war's been going on for...six years, if memory serves me, give or take. Starfleet obviously wants something that'll ramp it up a notch, so they can start gaining ground in this conflict. The Atrox is good, the Armetige is good, so make an answer to the KDF's voQuv and see how that goes.
Granted, IF this were to happen, it'd be like a year from now, PWE has its hands full with season 6, and if you saw the patch notes, season 7 and 8 will be equally taxing projects. Still, I still say it could happen.
Although I do agree with the above poster's idea...make carriers a support ship. Maybe that could be their next step, a support carrier. Science maybe (brace for impending wall of "LOL!"s, since science is supposedly always nerfed into impotence) but like he said, not so much a damage dealer in itself, but a ship that keeps everyone else alive. Like, in ability to making it able to launch Defiant Lites, maybe a bonus to cooldown for heals or something, something that makes it obvious what the ship is for.
[Edit: had to address above poster's comment, it was a good one.]
becuase even having such a shipyard crowded with shiny new ships you still wanting more
putting aside really needed things like gameplay, fresh episodes, a more complete klingon faction in resume fresh content, a defiant carrier is definetly not needed.
And by the way if there is a unreasonable class of ships in this game those are the carriers that can spam endless swarms of pets
the multy vector, saucer seperation, aquarious, vulcan support craft...all are kind of frigates, unfortunately not commandable via the carrier commands but still, much more durable than fighters and with more functionality (they have some BOFF powers)
to keep them distinct...if the gameplay experiance for each faction was 99% the same, what reason would there even be to try out the other faction.
it is allready too much mixed between feds and klingons, giving them identical ships, that vary only in design would make the game even duller.
i highly doubt that fed carriers were a smart move by the devs...but i guess the profit they made with it suggests it was very smart^^
The point is we will probably never ever see one, so why should the Fed's get Frigate pets? Makes sense.
As a KDF player I am tried that not only do the Federation get so much and the KDF basically nothing, but everything there is a Federation wanting something they generally do get it, but everytime a KDF player asks for something we are told to be happy with what we got. Told we are complainers. (I am not saying that is what you are saying btw, as you didn't).
How is that fair?
As for bops fitting in the Vo'Quv, just remember most of the scaling in this game is WAY, WAY off.
For example, "You cant bring your massive ships into the vault, its small, so you have to take a shuttle" You get in the Vault, you run into Mogai's and D'deridex, both of which are enormous. (IE, the D'deridex is so large, you could fit an entire 680 meter-ish Galaxy class inside it).
No putting a T2 Escort inside a Carrier isn't powerful enough it needs to be a T4 or T5.
I really think that the MVAE ships should be upgraded to be more frigate like, perhaps giving them a internal heal and a tac team instead of Rapid Fire and High Yields.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
I saw that, I actually Googled its size to have an idea of how big it is, and apparently there was some conflicts even when the Defiant was shown in the shows and movies over how long it actually was, and its scale compared to other things, i.e. DS9 (when it's shown docked with it) or the Enterprise-E (ST: First Contact, when the latter swoops in to save the day). 120 meters, 170 meters, there were a good four different figures. I picked 120 since it served my point best.
Either way, it's not overwhelmingly bigger than a BoP, and both are crewed by about the same amount of people.
As for why I say the Defiant, look at it. Like I said, it's this little nugget with "wings". I believe one of the variants doesn't even have those "wings", just glowy parts for a deflector and nacelles. It'd be the economical choice as it'd be easy to store, carry, and launch. Sabers' nacelles stick out the back, the Venture-class (the scout ship Data used in ST: Insurrection, and also seen in the game ST: Armada) is still too shuttle-ish IMHO (and BoPs are definitely not shuttles).
So, from a canonical standpoint, like I said, Starfleet realizes it needs to have a voQuv counterpart, since it can launch BoPs, not just fighters and shuttles. The carrier project as a whole is a success, as the Atrox and Armetige can attest to. So, why not build something that can launch small ships - not just the "Small Ship" category in-game - like the Klingons can?
Gameplay-wise, so the carrier doesn't become OP and a game breaker, make some Defiant Lite, a Defiant variant that's not quite as powerful as the real ship, but obviously more powerful, and durable, than the Peregrine or Delta Flyer. And make it so you can have either/or. Defiant Lite, or fighter squadrons. Take your pick.
It'd be a stretch, and there'd be whining and moaning - but seriously, ANYTHING you to to a game, part of its players will whine and moan - but I still say it could be done. Again, the Klingons could do it, if you wanna count Dominion Wars, the Cardassians could do it*, why can't the high-and-mighty Federation?
* = Like I said in my original post, in the intro movie to Dominion Wars, the Cardassian Hutet-class battleship launches two Norin-class frigates from its underbelly to chase the Defiant. It can't be done in-game, but still.
depends on the source if you go by the LCAR in the back of the defiant's bridge it would be 120m. if you go by the windows on the studio model the ship is 240m. the main script writer said it was 170m in cut dialog. okuda in the DS9 tech manual says the ship is 120m (he made the LCAR).
also the scale of the ship was off in the show as well some times it was larger then a b'rel and other times a b'rel was larger then the defiant and not to mention the time it was flying under a negh'var like luke did with the death star
the only thing that was consistent with the defiant was the crew size of 50
[SARCASM]Because the Feds need more ships, they barely have any compared to the Klingons. [/SARCASM]
The KDF Flight Deck Cruisers are pretty lacklustre compared to the HEC which compares favorably to the Kar'Fi and the Atrox compares favorably to the Vo'Quv. These ships may not be the same, but if all ships where identical the game would be very boring.
Sorry I forgot to add the sarcasm tags. I find it funny the Feds want a T4/5 Defiant Escort to be compared equally to a T1 Raider.
Let's ignore the fact that when the Klingons built the Vo'Quv that they designed it to launch BoPs. But the Caitians didn't design the Atrox to launch Frigates and that CBS have said no to a true Federation Carrier.
If I ask you a question it is not an insult but a genuine attempt to understand why.
When I insult you I won't be discreet about it, I will be precise and to the point stupid.
It's so funny when someone assumes a player only has characters on one faction. I have a total of 15 characters, characters on both sides. I just prefer the KDF feel of the game. Very disappointed that they refuse to work on both sides equally.
Also disappointed that the Dev's don't seem to grasp the feel of making both sides unique with unique features to really give the feel of playing that side. Instead they take the lazy way out and just grab something from one side and shove it to the other.
That is useful for comparison though... According to Memory Alpha, a Klingon BoP has a crew of between 12 and 36, implying a smaller ship (significantly smaller for models with a crew of 12).
But yes, the Defiant could be made smaller or more compact, though like I said, one of its variants is about as compact as it can get, I imagine, it seriously looks like the Defiant after a huge budget cut.
Another thought, since I keep bringing up Dominion Wars - and if I'm the only one who remembers that game, atrocious as it was, I will feel old indeed - why not make a carrier that keeps frigates or Defiants docked on its underbelly or something? Hell, I don't even need to go back that far, the Oddy's Aquarius thing and the Bortasque's Hoh'SuS BoP are "stowed" externally, additionally, the BoP is always online and operational, as indicated by its warp nacelles always being powered on (I don't know if the Aquarius is similarly visibly online, cause I really can't stand the Oddy's appearance, so I try not to look at them up close). I'm sure they could make a ship that did the same thing.
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He says as he is telling fed players they are complainers and that they should be happy with what they've got.
Now, if they were unique or retrofit ships that had the nacelles removed in favour of more or bigger weapons, then I could see it.
I'm a KDF exclusive player and I'm not against the feds having frigate-sized pets, it's just that the idea or a ship built to house/launch other warp-capable ships seems silly and redundant to me.
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My apologies I must have misinterpreted what he said/meant. Again sorry about that.
That doesn't follow in that we know for a fact it could be run with even fewer, namely the bridge crew of the Enterprise.
If it is a smaller hull, it would have to be a downscaled ship and would no longer be the defiant, per se.
Star Fleet Battles took that concept and ran with it too. They had the Trek version of Torpedo boats, called 'Psuedo-Fighters' in game. They were fielded by way of 'psuedo-fighter tenders' just as you suggest.
God, lvl 60 CW. 17k.
The last thing the defiants need is a carrier option IMHO.