I'm a Tac Captain in an Oddy and enjoying it a lot. I run her as a pure beam cruiser (8 arrays mixed between antiproton and disruptor atm). I took high Fire at Will and Beam Overload and loaded up on defensive/heal abilities. I don't dps like my escort but I sure as hell live through it when I get aggro And since I do more damage than anything but escorts I get that often lol And it's always nice to save the little guys with a Fire at Will and get everything shooting at me instead of them!
I'm also considering getting a Dread and think I might this weekend. The Oddy doesn't hit quite hard enough for me.
I'm a Tac Captain in an Oddy and enjoying it a lot. I run her as a pure beam cruiser (8 arrays mixed between antiproton and disruptor atm). I took high Fire at Will and Beam Overload and loaded up on defensive/heal abilities. I don't dps like my escort but I sure as hell live through it when I get aggro And since I do more damage than anything but escorts I get that often lol And it's always nice to save the little guys with a Fire at Will and get everything shooting at me instead of them!
I'm also considering getting a Dread and think I might this weekend. The Oddy doesn't hit quite hard enough for me.
I've played around with the ody, and it just doesn't do anything for me. I mostly run elites with my fleet, and randomly pug pvp matches. And in both cases I really just need to kill things as fast as I can, and the ody simply doesn't have much to offer in that department; which is why I went back to the dread.
On a side note, the dread is just a slow turning version of an escort, so unless you really want to fly one, I wouldn't bother spending the c-points for it.
I've played around with the ody, and it just doesn't do anything for me. I mostly run elites with my fleet, and randomly pug pvp matches. And in both cases I really just need to kill things as fast as I can, and the ody simply doesn't have much to offer in that department; which is why I went back to the dread.
On a side note, the dread is just a slow turning version of an escort, so unless you really want to fly one, I wouldn't bother spending the c-points for it.
A slow turning escort ... with hull I'll do some more looking before I buy one, thanks for the thoughts!
I last better ina Celsior than i do in a sovy...not sure why exactly...
And the Odessey is good for what it is....but a tac should not be flying one IMO. The DPS potential just isnt there. great for eeking out of a fight, just not for starting one.
In STF's all i see is an Odessey trio taking FOREVER to put down the borg spheres....seriously, by the time they are done.....the timers popped and there goes yer optional.
Celsior is good, Sovy is good....not sure how one can claim to last very long in a X......I've tanked better in a Celsior than a X.
Lastly if you are producing a build for optimal performance. Do it with PvP in mind.....then you'll know if it works there....it'll work in PvE.
I last better ina Celsior than i do in a sovy...not sure why exactly...
And the Odessey is good for what it is....but a tac should not be flying one IMO. The DPS potential just isnt there. great for eeking out of a fight, just not for starting one.
In STF's all i see is an Odessey trio taking FOREVER to put down the borg spheres....seriously, by the time they are done.....the timers popped and there goes yer optional.
Celsior is good, Sovy is good....not sure how one can claim to last very long in a X......I've tanked better in a Celsior than a X.
Lastly if you are producing a build for optimal performance. Do it with PvP in mind.....then you'll know if it works there....it'll work in PvE.
I get tired of people throwing around the phrase about ideal pvp builds work (more or less) ideally for pve. That isn't always the case. There are many builds that produce high burst damage at the expense of higher sustained dps. In the case of pve, higher sustained dps is actually better.
Another example would be that an excel and dread would do similar dps in pve, but I can wtfpwn an excel in pvp with my dread because I have a cloak and lance, and the excel's higher turn rate isn't good enough to stay out of my front facing.
Can pvp builds do well in pve? Ofcourse. Mostly because the damage potential is there, and if you pvp you have to learn how to use the ship. But is it optimal? No. And a pure pve build is better than a pvp build for... well pve.
As far as turn rate not being an issue, If youre in a Gal-x or other less maneuverable ships , even the Excelsior and Sovy' (to a lesser extent) , that ability to turn enough to have a shot impact a fresh shield facing can make a great difference. Also, if a target can stay in your left/right rear flanks, its harder for a Gal-X to use alot of its heavier guns (unless its a beamboat, and then it gets a fair deal of energy drain firing).
I agree that those are all things the dread lose out on. However, if you read my post, I said it was a trade. Because for everything you mentioned that the dread loses out on, I GAIN something back in return.
Lose +10 power to weapons, but GAIN +5for everything else. Which nets me 5 more, and I still have 125 weapon power.
Lose a tac console, but GAIN an eng console, which increases survivability.
Lose some tac abilities, but GAIN eng abilities, which trades dps for survival.
Lose DHC, but gain... wait what? I can mount DHC on a dread. And for pve, they're perfectly fine. I just have to swap them out for singles in pvp. But then I get 180 arc vs the 45.
Lose turn rate, but GAIN hull and shields.
Lose AoE damage, but GAIN the abilities to heal team members to keep them alive. OMG! Help team members? That's unheard of!
So no, I don't simply lose out on a lot. What actually happens is that I've made some trades. A bit (or alot) of dps for more survival and support.
And the trades are pretty obvious in pvp as I lack the manuverability to keep my weapons on an escort for very long, but I have enough survivability that the escort can't kill me. However, the key difference is that if the escort ever makes a mistake and lands in front of me I can burn him down. Where as I'm always in front of the escort, but he's almost never able to burn me down.
Turn rate bonus X (D.P.S. boost + shield facings) = longer life
Run TT1, and you won't have to worry about shield facing. And in pvp the excel does less [burst] dps than the dread because of the lance, so the dread can actually kill faster.
In pve the dread can last a bit longer because of the LT com eng slot. But the excel doesn't get more dps because the extra dps from the Lt com station is made up for by the lance of the dread.
The excel feels more like an escort with its turn rate, but you can't play a dread like you do an escort. You have to play it like a cruiser.
so, here's what I've gathered from the various discussions so far
1 - Odyssey - I can probably make a passable survival-oriented Odyssey, but turn rate and useful weapons loadouts are going to limit its offensive capability, which is, coincidentally, going to limit its utility in both PVE and PVP
2 - Assault cruiser - seems everyone finds this to be a useful ship type - the more specialized vessels seem to trade something for gaining something else - dreadnought trades manueverability for specialized damage dealing abilities, excelsior trades survivability for maneuverability and increased outgoing dps, odyssey trades maneuverability and dps for survivability
3 - Dreadnought - seems like there are lots of people using these, and they seem to like it - I should be getting roughly the same maneuverability I get out of an odyssey, a *little* less survivability, but the potential for a significantly more dedicated DPS platform - I'm leaning towards the dreadnought as my end ship, although I've still got some debate
also, there seems to be both a viable beam build for the dreadnought, and a viable cannon build for the dreadnought - as to which is *better*, seems to vary significantly depending on playstyle decisions - I'll have to see about that
4 - Excelsior refit (Enterprise-B) - this is the diciest of the end-game cruiser options, it sounds like - the re-tasking of engineer boff positions means a very different engineer boff loadout, making survivability more...delicate. The increased manueverability and power offers some of the best maneuver for cruisers, but still doesn't come close, boff/tac wise or maneuver, equipment-wise to escorts - generally described, the exc-refit is sounding a lot like a poormans escort PLUS a poor mans cruiser - I'm not *sure* how I feel about that
again, thank you all for the spirited (and mostly polite) discussion - I'm hoping this has been as helpful to other folk as it has been to me - and of course, my statements above are based on my understanding and simplification of the information i've gotten from the thread so far - it's very possible I may have misinterpreted, or mis-simplified, the information, and I welcome anyone to correct me if any of the above summaries is violently inaccurate
There's been a lot of debates being thrown around, and if anyone reads what post, it would seem pretty clear that I a clear advocate of the dread. And I am. But i wanted to clarify a few things...
1) Excelsior for all intents-and-purposes is on-par with the dread. The difference in burst isn't so big that it makes the ship weak in pvp, It is just that the turn rate is what makes up for it; which, honestly I admit may make this ship more attractive to certain players who enjoy this. It is also cheaper than the dread, and honestly had I know how good it was (about as good as the dread), I would probably have just bought this ship instead.
NOTE: If you can get a Galor, it is far better than the excel. They're essentially the same ship, just the glaor has a turn rate that is as good as most science ships, which makes it leaps and bounds better than the excel.
2) Assualt cruiser... well you can really go wrong with this ship. Not the best, but its free and highly versatile.
3) Odyssey is just too slow for my taste. Low dps aside, I just personally don't like the size or design of the ship.
so, here's what I've gathered from the various discussions so far
1 - Odyssey - I can probably make a passable survival-oriented Odyssey, but turn rate and useful weapons loadouts are going to limit its offensive capability, which is, coincidentally, going to limit its utility in both PVE and PVP
...
3 - Dreadnought - seems like there are lots of people using these, and they seem to like it - I should be getting roughly the same maneuverability I get out of an odyssey, a *little* less survivability, but the potential for a significantly more dedicated DPS platform - I'm leaning towards the dreadnought as my end ship, although I've still got some debate
also, there seems to be both a viable beam build for the dreadnought, and a viable cannon build for the dreadnought - as to which is *better*, seems to vary significantly depending on playstyle decisions - I'll have to see about that
...
again, thank you all for the spirited (and mostly polite) discussion - I'm hoping this has been as helpful to other folk as it has been to me - and of course, my statements above are based on my understanding and simplification of the information i've gotten from the thread so far - it's very possible I may have misinterpreted, or mis-simplified, the information, and I welcome anyone to correct me if any of the above summaries is violently inaccurate
1) I only pvp accidentally in my Oddy (Ker'rat) but do "well". I do well in pve, more as a tank than a dps. I run her as a pure beam cruiser and find fire at will to be very helpful getting stuff shooting at me instead of the squishies
3)I'm thinking about getting a Dread also, probably will.
I know that in my escort with DHCs I play one way and in me Oddy I play another. One of the things that makes this game so fun
I agree that those are all things the dread lose out on. However, if you read my post, I said it was a trade. Because for everything you mentioned that the dread loses out on, I GAIN something back in return.
Lose +10 power to weapons, but GAIN +5for everything else. Which nets me 5 more, and I still have 125 weapon power.
Lose a tac console, but GAIN an eng console, which increases survivability.
Lose some tac abilities, but GAIN eng abilities, which trades dps for survival.
Lose DHC, but gain... wait what? I can mount DHC on a dread. And for pve, they're perfectly fine. I just have to swap them out for singles in pvp. But then I get 180 arc vs the 45.
Lose turn rate, but GAIN hull and shields.
Lose AoE damage, but GAIN the abilities to heal team members to keep them alive. OMG! Help team members? That's unheard of!
So no, I don't simply lose out on a lot. What actually happens is that I've made some trades. A bit (or alot) of dps for more survival and support.
And the trades are pretty obvious in pvp as I lack the manuverability to keep my weapons on an escort for very long, but I have enough survivability that the escort can't kill me. However, the key difference is that if the escort ever makes a mistake and lands in front of me I can burn him down. Where as I'm always in front of the escort, but he's almost never able to burn me down.
Yea, and the same can be said for an escort or science ship. I'm not sure what you're point was.
Run TT1, and you won't have to worry about shield facing. And in pvp the excel does less [burst] dps than the dread because of the lance, so the dread can actually kill faster.
In pve the dread can last a bit longer because of the LT com eng slot. But the excel doesn't get more dps because the extra dps from the Lt com station is made up for by the lance of the dread.
The excel feels more like an escort with its turn rate, but you can't play a dread like you do an escort. You have to play it like a cruiser.
That lance is only good when its in arc, and it hits, and its cooldown is pretty long, as well as taking out BO skills after its used (or visa-versa), try that with a nimble BOP, most know to stay clear of your nose.
Like you said, you can't depend on using DC/DHC in PvP, so that pretty much takes out total usefullness of them , unless one decides to avoid PvP (at that point, most ships would work fine).
The Excelsior is a more aggresive stop-gap between Escorts and Cruisers, and it acts like it. The Dreadnaught is very blunt and inflexible between the two, its very hard to take the initiative once engaged in combat. Its the equivalent to the "cannon ships" that the Europeans parked in the sea to take on the Arabian fleets comming to attack Europe, they needed the Arabian ships to roll into thier zones to be usefull (which with the Arabs not having cannons, they did so, and the ships did very well). Those ships weren;t going to chase down the Arabian fleets, they would been chewed up.
My point on both working for a type of person is just that, very few people can jump between a Dreadnaught and a Fleet Escort and do well with the same playstyle, and those with varying playstyle would still have a big problem.
There are people who see the things given up by taking a Dread' blanaced out by the Dread's pluses, but other people don't see it the same way. It doesnt make either right.
That lance is only good when its in arc, and it hits, and its cooldown is pretty long, as well as taking out BO skills after its used (or visa-versa), try that with a nimble BOP, most know to stay clear of your nose.
But they can't always stay out. Although a BOP will just hit and run most of the time anyway. But escorts that don't run after the first 2 volleys will sometimes get too close to me, i.e. with 2k of my ship. When that happens, I reverse, EjWP, Evasive, and they're caught in a position where they can move out of my nose. Doesn't happen often with good player, but I get it every now and then. Although the "good" one always hit and run, which means they can't kill me.
Also... I do want to point out that the ones that have the best weapons (mk12 purple non-borg weapons) and/or cstore universal consoles form other ships will beat me more often then other who don't I just can't match the dps/utility that they have.
The Excelsior is a more aggresive stop-gap between Escorts and Cruisers, and it acts like it. The Dreadnaught is very blunt and inflexible between the two, its very hard to take the initiative once engaged in combat. Its the equivalent to the "cannon ships" that the Europeans parked in the sea to take on the Arabian fleets comming to attack Europe, they needed the Arabian ships to roll into thier zones to be usefull (which with the Arabs not having cannons, they did so, and the ships did very well). Those ships weren;t going to chase down the Arabian fleets, they would been chewed up.
This is true. But if you're going to get an exel, you might as well get a galor, which superior to the excel in the sense that it is much more manuverable; making the excel less desirable.
My point on both working for a type of person is just that, very few people can jump between a Dreadnaught and a Fleet Escort and do well with the same playstyle, and those with varying playstyle would still have a big problem.
There are people who see the things given up by taking a Dread' blanaced out by the Dread's pluses, but other people don't see it the same way. It doesnt make either right.
By other people do you mean "you"?. I mean, if all you cared about are the things you lose going from an escort to a cruiser, and not the things that you gain, why switch? You should stay with an escort. The only reason you would want to make the switch is because you want to gain in other areas and lose out on others.
But they can't always stay out. Although a BOP will just hit and run most of the time anyway. But escorts that don't run after the first 2 volleys will sometimes get too close to me, i.e. with 2k of my ship. When that happens, I reverse, EjWP, Evasive, and they're caught in a position where they can move out of my nose. Doesn't happen often with good player, but I get it every now and then. Although the "good" one always hit and run, which means they can't kill me...
Also... I do want to point out that the ones that have the best weapons (mk12 purple non-borg weapons) and/or cstore universal consoles form other ships will beat me more often then other who don't I just can't match the dps/utility that they have.
I know the tactic well, I've used it with about every cruiser type ship I have. But as you say, it only works now and then. I am surprised they just dont hit "evasive Maneuvers" and Dueterium tanks to evade from you.
This is true. But if you're going to get an exel, you might as well get a galor, which superior to the excel in the sense that it is much more manuverable; making the excel less desirable.
Maybe if I could get a Galor, I might, but I haven't been able to, so that makes it moot.
By other people do you mean "you"?. I mean, if all you cared about are the things you lose going from an escort to a cruiser, and not the things that you gain, why switch? You should stay with an escort. The only reason you would want to make the switch is because you want to gain in other areas and lose out on others.
No, several people in this game have expressed similar statements when discussing ships. Players in my fleet have this same discussion too.As a matter of fact, I do switch between several ships (I own the majority of the classes in this game) to fit my mood. My engineer has used the DN for a long time for STF's because it doesnt need to be a high mobility ship, in PvP its an Excel'. I doubt that you have read what I have said in the Galaxy-X chats in the forums here with Hak' and the rest.
As afar as my Tac' I switch between the Fleet Escort and the Excell all the time, usually depending on what the mission calls for. If my fleet is going escort heavy, I use the Excel' to help with healing but able to keep up with them better than the other cruisers (while still putting out dps). The device slots come in handy too.
I know the tactic well, I've used it with about every cruiser type ship I have. But as you say, it only works now and then. I am surprised they just dont hit "evasive Maneuvers" and Dueterium tanks to evade from you.
Yea only every now and then. And usually never against a good player. Still, there are other useful tactics.
Maybe if I could get a Galor, I might, but I haven't been able to, so that makes it moot.
Well if you can afford an excelsior, you can more-or-less afford a Galor. 1600 c-points = ~350,000 dlilithium = 350 uncommon unreplicatables = ~35 mil EC. And every now and then I see a Galor for sale for 50 mil EC, so with just a little more EC or some extra dilithium, you can pick up a galor. So my point stands.
No, several people in this game have expressed similar statements when discussing ships. Players in my fleet have this same discussion too.As a matter of fact, I do switch between several ships (I own the majority of the classes in this game) to fit my mood. My engineer has used the DN for a long time for STF's because it doesnt need to be a high mobility ship, in PvP its an Excel'. I doubt that you have read what I have said in the Galaxy-X chats in the forums here with Hak' and the rest.
Except I use my dread with my tac, and it is highly mobile for 1/3 of the time. 10 sec worth of evasive, then 18 sec CD (will get it down to 15 sec one of these days), and then another 10 sec worth of evasive. So it's about 10/28 sec or ~1/3 of the battle (soon to be 10/25 sec), and I do pretty well in pvp with it.
As afar as my Tac' I switch between the Fleet Escort and the Excell all the time, usually depending on what the mission calls for. If my fleet is going escort heavy, I use the Excel' to help with healing but able to keep up with them better than the other cruisers (while still putting out dps). The device slots come in handy too.
There is never a time that I "need" to switch out of the dread to keep up in dps. I pumps out plenty of damage in both pvp and pve; In pve, if you can't keep up in dps with an escort in a dread, doing anything except cure then I don't know what to tell you. Also there isn't a need to heal anyone is pve as escorts should either be able to heal themselves through normal damage or be one shot'd like everyone else even if you heal them.
In pvp if an escort is being focused, you can't do enough healing to keep it alive. It would die before you get a chance to select him as your target. The only hope an escort has is escape, and you would be better laying down some dps (phaser proc, traget engines, etc.) and warp plasma to cover him than to heal him.
If you enjoy all types of ships then that is great, and I applaud your diverse skill set. I personally can only ever use tac with an escort or cruiser. However, I just wanted to point out that there isn't anything the excel is better at than the dread that the dread doesn't make up for in some other way.
Well if you can afford an excelsior, you can more-or-less afford a Galor. 1600 c-points = ~350,000 dlilithium = 350 uncommon unreplicatables = ~35 mil EC. And every now and then I see a Galor for sale for 50 mil EC, so with just a little more EC or some extra dilithium, you can pick up a galor. So my point stands.
Except the the market value has dropped, right now 100 uncommon unreplicatables are going for 10 million, I would need to sell 500 to get 50million.As more people figure this out, it will become LESS expensive to buy unreplicatables, and more expensive for the Galor (assuming thier scarcity remains consistant). Honestly more than that to realisticly expect to afford one on the exchange, right now its 80 million.
I would still have to "stumble" over the rare one offered at a lower price. It's more realistic to expect 2,000 plus Cstore points. Plus I got the Excel on sale.
Except I use my dread with my tac, and it is highly mobile for 1/3 of the time. 10 sec worth of evasive, then 18 sec CD (will get it down to 15 sec one of these days), and then another 10 sec worth of evasive. So it's about 10/28 sec or ~1/3 of the battle (soon to be 10/25 sec), and I do pretty well in pvp with it.
There is never a time that I "need" to switch out of the dread to keep up in dps. I pumps out plenty of damage in both pvp and pve; In pve, if you can't keep up in dps with an escort in a dread, doing anything except cure then I don't know what to tell you. Also there isn't a need to heal anyone is pve as escorts should either be able to heal themselves through normal damage or be one shot'd like everyone else even if you heal them.
Then you have never teamed with four FAST driving escort players, I need to keep up with them, which is almost impossible with a Gal-X's turn rate, and we do pretty good when we are grouped, and I do lend both fire/heal support for them. STF's are PvE, and they (escorts) DO need heals. And I do just fine with dps in an Excel, Escort etc.
In pvp if an escort is being focused, you can't do enough healing to keep it alive. It would die before you get a chance to select him as your target. The only hope an escort has is escape, and you would be better laying down some dps (phaser proc, traget engines, etc.) and warp plasma to cover him than to heal him.
Not in my experience, I have been able to heal my teammates when ganged up on to give them extra life in battle, and I do lay down fire support, probably more than one could expect from a Gal-X (save a crit hit from the Lance), remember I have a Lt. Commander Tactcal BoFF.
If you enjoy all types of ships then that is great, and I applaud your diverse skill set. I personally can only ever use tac with an escort or cruiser. However, I just wanted to point out that there isn't anything the excel is better at than the dread that the dread doesn't make up for in some other way.
See , here is where you missed the point I have made. I had been initially talking about the give/take of AN ESCORT VS. CRUISER, because someone told them they should be in an escort. You started the Gal-X vs. Excel' based on what I was saying about escorts vs. cruisers.
It's more realistic to expect 2,000 plus Cstore points. Plus I got the Excel on sale.
2000 vs 1600, even with real money it's $6. For a better ship, it's not that bad of a deal. And I do believe at this point no one will be getting an excel on sale anytime soon.
Then you have never teamed with four FAST driving escort players, I need to keep up with them, which is almost impossible with a Gal-X's turn rate, and we do pretty good when we are grouped, and I do lend both fire/heal support for them. STF's are PvE, and they (escorts) DO need heals. And I do just fine with dps in an Excel, Escort etc.
What do you mean by "keep up"? As in going from place to place, or dps? Because I don't really see where you need to move so much back and forth in an stf. Honest question, I don't understand what you mean.
Not in my experience, I have been able to heal my teammates when ganged up on to give them extra life in battle, and I do lay down fire support, probably more than one could expect from a Gal-X (save a crit hit from the Lance), remember I have a Lt. Commander Tactcal BoFF.
That crit from the lance can kill an opponent outright, which is probably more useful because it instantly gives you numerical superiority.
But also just so we're on the same page... here are the numbers...
CRF1 vs CRF2
Base DPS (using my dread): 954
CRF1: 1243
CRF2: 1340
Difference: 97 DPS
10 sec effect: 970 total extra damage.
in a 3 min window: 970 * 6 = 5820 total extra damage.
THY1 vs THY 2
Base damage (raw damage): 4793
THY1: 5336 * 2 = 10,672
THY2: 4130 * 3 = 12,390
Difference: 1,718
in a 3 min window: 1,718 * 6 = 10,308
Total disparity caused by having higher level Boffs: 16,128 (in favor of Excelsior)
Phaser lance every 3 mins: 21,322
Difference: 5,194 (in favor of the dread)
So... you are wrong. I can give more fire support in my dread than you can in the excel even with the higher level BOFFs.
And before you say suppressing fire = continuous firing, continuously shooting at someone in pvp doesn't mean anything unless you can put pressure on them; i.e. make them worry about dying. And there is nothing that can make someone worry better than a 40k crit in the face with a lance.
See , here is where you missed the point I have made. I had been initially talking about the give/take of AN ESCORT VS. CRUISER, because someone told them they should be in an escort. You started the Gal-X vs. Excel' based on what I was saying about escorts vs. cruisers.
Actually all you mentioned was the "take" from an escort, and did not mention anything about the give of a cruiser until I pointed it out.
2000 vs 1600, even with real money it's $6. For a better ship, it's not that bad of a deal. And I do believe at this point no one will be getting an excel on sale anytime soon.
That takes too much selling, trading and hoping that situations end up right to happen. If I want to "purchase" a ship, make it available in the C-Store. The Galor is hardly "the Holy Grail" of cruisers. I'll spend my EC on better thats that make the ship attack better.
What do you mean by "keep up"? As in going from place to place, or dps? Because I don't really see where you need to move so much back and forth in an stf. Honest question, I don't understand what you mean.
Yes, keeping up with a fast moving escort group, exploit the small group that has managed to (10k-ish) break away from the main group, reshore a side that is outnumberedthings one would normally see in Kerrat. The Galaxy (and X) would be in the wake of "wait for me guys", where I am not.
That crit from the lance can kill an opponent outright, which is probably more useful because it instantly gives you numerical superiority.
But also just so we're on the same page... here are the numbers...
CRF1 vs CRF2
Base DPS (using my dread): 954
CRF1: 1243
CRF2: 1340
Difference: 97 DPS
10 sec effect: 970 total extra damage.
in a 3 min window: 970 * 6 = 5820 total extra damage.
THY1 vs THY 2
Base damage (raw damage): 4793
THY1: 5336 * 2 = 10,672
THY2: 4130 * 3 = 12,390
Difference: 1,718
in a 3 min window: 1,718 * 6 = 10,308
Total disparity caused by having higher level Boffs: 16,128 (in favor of Excelsior)
Phaser lance every 3 mins: 21,322
Difference: 5,194 (in favor of the dread)
So... you are wrong. I can give more fire support in my dread than you can in the excel even with the higher level BOFFs.
And before you say suppressing fire = continuous firing, continuously shooting at someone in pvp doesn't mean anything unless you can put pressure on them; i.e. make them worry about dying. And there is nothing that can make someone worry better than a 40k crit in the face with a lance."
In fire support, were are speaking the difference of an anvil and a hammer. Like to be the anvil, I strip the shields quickly (without need of spike damage) so my 'scorts can hammer them to death.I am not the killing blow, but the one that helps the group get there, also shooting down targetable torps too. Unless your fighting a slower moving ship, you cant garauntee that your getting that lance fired off (and then critting) every three minutes. And I also use BO1 instead of HYT along with CRF to ensure shields stay down. It's the little guys job to finish them off, and they do just fine with that.
So Playing a Tac Captain running in the Oddy. At first didn't like the ship, loving her now. I have it set up for a jack of all trades role.
Weps so far. Forward two dual beam banks. (mix of tetreyon and polaron weapons.) One quantum torpedo launcher and one turret.
(i catch a lot of flack for using turrets)
Aft weapons 3more turrets and one quantum torpedo launcher.
Before anyone gripes about turrets hear me out on it.
My dps seems small by numbers but with the slow turn rate the turrets save me constantly. Having the 360 fire arc keeps a steady bead of weapon fire on my target at all times. With two tac officers using torpedo spread and rapid cannon fire i make up a lot of dps loss, Attack pattern Alpha helps on that, and the weapons abilities to rip shields apart and weaken enemy ship power levels helps. A couple torpedo spreads later and im moving onto the next big target. I also keep fleet help and scorpion fighters for added fire support. Ship is mostly spect out to adsorb damage reflect it back and hit you at every angle. She turns fast enough that i can get into torpedo arc when i need too. Otherwise i have out dps'ed some escorts
Yes, keeping up with a fast moving escort group, exploit the small group that has managed to (10k-ish) break away from the main group, reshore a side that is outnumberedthings one would normally see in Kerrat. The Galaxy (and X) would be in the wake of "wait for me guys", where I am not.
lol kerrat...
Also I'm still having a hard time understanding how an escort would have faster full impulse that the dread... always though it was the same speed.
In fire support, were are speaking the difference of an anvil and a hammer. Like to be the anvil, I strip the shields quickly (without need of spike damage) so my 'scorts can hammer them to death.I am not the killing blow, but the one that helps the group get there, also shooting down targetable torps too. Unless your fighting a slower moving ship, you cant garauntee that your getting that lance fired off (and then critting) every three minutes. And I also use BO1 instead of HYT along with CRF to ensure shields stay down. It's the little guys job to finish them off, and they do just fine with that.
But the thing is with the dread I can be both the anvil AND the hammer. I'm not restricted to one role.
Also I'm still having a hard time understanding how an escort would have faster full impulse that the dread... always though it was the same speed. .
Thrust to weight ratios still have an effect in space. (Presuming) the same amount of thrust from the engine, the lighter ship accelerates faster (and can maintain it)
But the thing is with the dread I can be both the anvil AND the hammer. I'm not restricted to one role.
Hey, if you can really manage that, more power to you, but one man/ship can't be the whole team either, and there isn't a ship in this game that can make up for that (except the Oberth, of course).
I'm fairly new to the game and have been following this thread because the information is good. Great discussion.
As for Cyells last comment, I would ask the same question. I use tetryon beams and cannons on my dread. 2 Tac consoles amplify beams, 1 Tac console buffs the appropriate torp type. Using 1 beam type seems optimal. If one wants other types of beams in the mix to get those other debuffs, I suggest having each member of a team run a different type for their ship. Just an idea.
On my VA, I have a advanced fleet escort, an Oddyssey, a Dreadnought, a Star Cruiser, and others. Each seems to have advantages. In the dread I use 2 DH cannons, 1 beam, and a transphasic torp front and 2 turrets, a trans torp, and a rare plasma torp rear. The torps will change eventually. The dread seems much more fun to fly but I seem to fly more like an escort than a cruiser, making a devastating head on guns blazing run at the target, but a huge circle to bring the main guns back on target. The very rare double speed engine makes speed no problem. What I needs is to find a better way to keep shooting more and flying less. The usual tactic in a cruiser is a 45 degree starboard or port approach to get a broadside, maneuver, rinse and repeat. Escorts target and fire, circle rinse and repeat or reverse fire and fire some more. Right?
D
So what is the best tactic for a dread flown by a Tac with my loadout? I have good Boffs skilled for survival, lots of special purchase consoles, have yet to die in the dread, but haven't run an STF yet.
Thrust to weight ratios still have an effect in space. (Presuming) the same amount of thrust from the engine, the lighter ship accelerates faster (and can maintain it)
That makes sense. Although I'm not sure how much difference there really is between a dread and an excel. Seems to me the difference would be fairly marginal. No? Do you really see a large difference in take-off speed?
Hey, if you can really manage that, more power to you, but one man/ship can't be the whole team either, and there isn't a ship in this game that can make up for that (except the Oberth, of course).
This is true. But I never claimed I was a one man army with or without the dread. And as much dps as I can muster from the dread, escorts still do significantly more. I'm not disputing that.
What I am trying to say however, is that once you get someone's shields down, you have a very small window of oppertunity to kill him/her before shields are rerouted, healed, or they escape. And the lance (or the disruptor equivalent on the claw) is really the best way to cram as much damage into that window of oppertunity as you can.
The usual tactic in a cruiser is a 45 degree starboard or port approach to get a broadside, maneuver, rinse and repeat. Escorts target and fire, circle rinse and repeat or reverse fire and fire some more. Right?
If you mean broadsides, I would actually suggest using all 8 beams, and pick up BFaW. It is very effective and very simple to use. Use 3 of the same tac consoles (tetryon in your case), and just wear people down.
So what is the best tactic for a dread flown by a Tac with my loadout? I have good Boffs skilled for survival, lots of special purchase consoles, have yet to die in the dread, but haven't run an STF yet.
Just keep moving, don'd stop unless you know you're going to get a kill. Get 3 conn doffs, purple ones if you afford it, blues totherwise. This reduces your CD on evasive by quite a bit, and comes in really handy.
If an escort gets on your ***, but is stupid enough to get close to you, go into reverse, eject warp plasma, and evasive manuvers for the speed boost. And all of a sudden you're the one on his ***, with tac buffs ready to go, tractor beam, and lance in the face.
That makes sense. Although I'm not sure how much difference there really is between a dread and an excel. Seems to me the difference would be fairly marginal. No? Do you really see a large difference in take-off speed?
I definately have, comming off the line the Excel feels more responsive and rolls quicker than my Gal-X, and the Escorts more notably than the Excel'. Can'ts say for Science ships, I use the Breen set for those, so never really bothered to compare.
This is true. But I never claimed I was a one man army with or without the dread. And as much dps as I can muster from the dread, escorts still do significantly more. I'm not disputing that.
What I am trying to say however, is that once you get someone's shields down, you have a very small window of oppertunity to kill him/her before shields are rerouted, healed, or they escape. And the lance (or the disruptor equivalent on the claw) is really the best way to cram as much damage into that window of oppertunity as you can.
I am more a fan of the close range MK XII Tricobalt up the tailpipe, myself. Less dramatics, but big-bada-boom.
I'm fairly new to the game and have been following this thread because the information is good. Great discussion.
As for Cyells last comment, I would ask the same question. I use tetryon beams and cannons on my dread. 2 Tac consoles amplify beams, 1 Tac console buffs the appropriate torp type. Using 1 beam type seems optimal. If one wants other types of beams in the mix to get those other debuffs, I suggest having each member of a team run a different type for their ship. Just an idea.
On my VA, I have a advanced fleet escort, an Oddyssey, a Dreadnought, a Star Cruiser, and others. Each seems to have advantages. In the dread I use 2 DH cannons, 1 beam, and a transphasic torp front and 2 turrets, a trans torp, and a rare plasma torp rear. The torps will change eventually. The dread seems much more fun to fly but I seem to fly more like an escort than a cruiser, making a devastating head on guns blazing run at the target, but a huge circle to bring the main guns back on target. The very rare double speed engine makes speed no problem. What I needs is to find a better way to keep shooting more and flying less. The usual tactic in a cruiser is a 45 degree starboard or port approach to get a broadside, maneuver, rinse and repeat. Escorts target and fire, circle rinse and repeat or reverse fire and fire some more. Right?
D
So what is the best tactic for a dread flown by a Tac with my loadout? I have good Boffs skilled for survival, lots of special purchase consoles, have yet to die in the dread, but haven't run an STF yet.
The biggest suggestion I can offer is to stick with a group, the Gal-X is the best anchorship in the game at the moment. As far as loadout, I wouldnt use more than one DC/DHC, but cannons/turrets are a good choice because Cannon Rapid Fire 1 doesn't disrupt the cooldown for the lance like Beam Overload does (I tend to keep one FAW1 with me if I get froggy on beams).
As far as turning, I've found throwing the ship in reverse during a turn and making a three point turn to be helpful in narrowing the radius. Also a copy of Auxialliary to Inertial Dampners can cut the radius too.
Im a new to STO... only recently started in January...
I've bought a couple ships in the C-Store... just to try them...
Started out with the Light Reliant Class Cruiser like everyone else and then went up to the Constitution and bought the Exeter refit...
But when it came time for my third ship, I did not want an Excelsior and I did not like the Commander Rank Heavy Cruiser options, and so moved up to the Akira Heavy Escort and bought the Thunderchild refit to go with it...
So I've tried the various versions of the ships, I flew my Heavy Escort based on the standard layout as an Akira, as well as the Thunderchild refit layout; and done the same with my Constitution/Exeter Cruiser...
I've worked my way up through the PVE game, and just last night recieved my Promotion to Captain.
I was looking forward to stepping back into a big Cruiser.
However, I chose to play a Tactical based character...
But...
I like Cruisers...
I was never much of a fan of the other Ship Classes such as the Akira; sure it looks pretty... and ok the Defiant is a tough 'little' ship ... (little?) ... but it just doesn't look like a Star Trek ship to me... Its not iconic enough...
Maybe if Paramount did a show centered around a ship and crew and it was an Akira Class; instead of the Galaxy, Constitution or the Intrepid... as it was those ships that made Star Trek what it is...
So...
Damnit Jim... I like Cruisers... NOT Escorts!
So is it any wonder, that I am sorely disappointed at the lack of Tactical capabilities in Cruisers and their horribly SLOW turn rates? Why can't I fly a Cruiser into a fight with a pair of forward Cannons and Torpedoes and tear my opponent apart; fly past them while they're still reacting to what the heck hit them, unleash my aft weapons on them, and then pull a fast "come about" for a final forward assault?
Thats the strategy I took with my Thunderchild refit Heavy Escort; loaded up with Dual Cannons, Quantum Torpedos, and an aft Turret... all Rare or Uncommon MK VI's that I either bought on the Exchange or acquired from mission rewards; ... PLUS, a pair of Rare MK VI RCS cons with +22 turn rates each; and other consoles for Tactical and Science, to enhance my various weapon and their damage outputs... and the best shields I could find..
I dumped over 200K energy credits into my Heavy Escort and then turned around and dumped a ton more EC's into my Boffs to ensure that they had the skills needed, to make the best use of my ship and its weapons...
Alpha III, with Rapid Fire II and Torpedo: High Yield II ... there is not much that can take a full frontal assault from my ship...
Combine that with my Boff's also having things like Tactical Team II, Engineering Team II, Emergency Power to Shields... etc...
My ship practically IS a tank, taking on several enemy ships at once, taking a hell of a beating; and still assaulting the heck out of my targets... the Klingon/Romulan Bird of Prey's just can't survive a single full frontal salvo and they're gone within a matter seconds... though granted they're smaller, lesser teir ships, but still I get 3, 4 or even 5 of them swarming me plus the Romulan ones shooting those damned plasma weapons at me...
Yet, I can take it..
They can't... 1 firing round, full frontal, and one ship is gone within seconds, then a sudden and quick "turn on the dime/ come about" maneuver and the next ship is under my gun sights and turning tail to run from me...
Sure, I know I may not have the best setup for PvP , but thats not my thing and I didn't come to STO for the PvP.... I built my ship to survive the PvE encounters that it sees; and I am sorely dismayed that I can't do this with a Cruiser!
So last night, dispite looking forward to trying out the iconic Galaxy Class...
After looking at its specs and comparing with the Tactical Escort Classes...
Guess which one I chose as a Tactical Captain?
I loved playing with my Constitution/Exeter... she was a mighty beast in the early game Fights... but she just couldn't get the job done as quickly or as efficiently as my newer Heavy Escort...
Add to this...
I'm frustrated with my BoFF's... I have two Tactical BoFF's and they have awesome skills for my ships combat style, but they're getting up in Rank like I am... and the damned ships that Cryptic makes available to me, handicaps them at their current Rank; limiting them to lower grade Bridge Stations, when their pushing Lt. Commander and Commander rank skills that they can't even use... cause all but one is stuck in a Lieutenant station...
Their best skills, are completely useless to me, until I get up to Teir 5 Admiral, and either acquire a Tactical Escort RETROfit; or a Multi-Vector Advanced Escort...
I probably will not buy the Sao Paulo refit for my new Tactical Escort because other then fancier looks and an extra Ensign BoFF station, I do not understand what good that ship would do me...
An ENSIGN station??? On a Teir 4 Captain ranked ship?!? ... when we've had out BoFF's from the Level 1 and they've been leveling up with us all this time... and have much better skills they can use?
An ENSIGN Station??? Seriously?
WTF Cryptic?
Why can't we just design our ships in the Shipyards to have the BoFF Stations that WE want them to have, based on our own Rank and Game Level; instead of the ones that Cryptic wants us to have?
Then everyone can select any ship/hull design that they want, flew the ship the way they want to fly it; and have an STO that is that much more enjoyable!
Im a new to STO... only recently started in January...
I probably will not buy the Sao Paulo refit for my new Tactical Escort because other then fancier looks and an extra Ensign BoFF station, I do not understand what good that ship would do me...
An ENSIGN station??? On a Teir 4 Captain ranked ship?!? ... when we've had out BoFF's from the Level 1 and they've been leveling up with us all this time... and have much better skills they can use?
An ENSIGN Station??? Seriously?
There are plenty of excellent ensign level BoFF skills that make higher level ships work well.
Hazard Emitters 1
Tac' Team/Science Team/Engi' team 1
Polarize Hull 1
Auxiliary to Inertial Dampers 1
Emergency power to weapons 1
High yield Torpedo 1
Beam Overload 1
Fire At Will 1
and many others.
Using these to supplement a ships already high level skills can add that extra "ooomph" to what a person is trying to do with that ship.
Comments
I'm also considering getting a Dread and think I might this weekend. The Oddy doesn't hit quite hard enough for me.
I've played around with the ody, and it just doesn't do anything for me. I mostly run elites with my fleet, and randomly pug pvp matches. And in both cases I really just need to kill things as fast as I can, and the ody simply doesn't have much to offer in that department; which is why I went back to the dread.
On a side note, the dread is just a slow turning version of an escort, so unless you really want to fly one, I wouldn't bother spending the c-points for it.
A slow turning escort ... with hull
And the Odessey is good for what it is....but a tac should not be flying one IMO. The DPS potential just isnt there. great for eeking out of a fight, just not for starting one.
In STF's all i see is an Odessey trio taking FOREVER to put down the borg spheres....seriously, by the time they are done.....the timers popped and there goes yer optional.
Celsior is good, Sovy is good....not sure how one can claim to last very long in a X......I've tanked better in a Celsior than a X.
Lastly if you are producing a build for optimal performance. Do it with PvP in mind.....then you'll know if it works there....it'll work in PvE.
Turn rate bonus X (D.P.S. boost + shield facings) = longer life
I get tired of people throwing around the phrase about ideal pvp builds work (more or less) ideally for pve. That isn't always the case. There are many builds that produce high burst damage at the expense of higher sustained dps. In the case of pve, higher sustained dps is actually better.
Another example would be that an excel and dread would do similar dps in pve, but I can wtfpwn an excel in pvp with my dread because I have a cloak and lance, and the excel's higher turn rate isn't good enough to stay out of my front facing.
Can pvp builds do well in pve? Ofcourse. Mostly because the damage potential is there, and if you pvp you have to learn how to use the ship. But is it optimal? No. And a pure pve build is better than a pvp build for... well pve.
I agree that those are all things the dread lose out on. However, if you read my post, I said it was a trade. Because for everything you mentioned that the dread loses out on, I GAIN something back in return.
Lose +10 power to weapons, but GAIN +5for everything else. Which nets me 5 more, and I still have 125 weapon power.
Lose a tac console, but GAIN an eng console, which increases survivability.
Lose some tac abilities, but GAIN eng abilities, which trades dps for survival.
Lose DHC, but gain... wait what? I can mount DHC on a dread. And for pve, they're perfectly fine. I just have to swap them out for singles in pvp. But then I get 180 arc vs the 45.
Lose turn rate, but GAIN hull and shields.
Lose AoE damage, but GAIN the abilities to heal team members to keep them alive. OMG! Help team members? That's unheard of!
So no, I don't simply lose out on a lot. What actually happens is that I've made some trades. A bit (or alot) of dps for more survival and support.
And the trades are pretty obvious in pvp as I lack the manuverability to keep my weapons on an escort for very long, but I have enough survivability that the escort can't kill me. However, the key difference is that if the escort ever makes a mistake and lands in front of me I can burn him down. Where as I'm always in front of the escort, but he's almost never able to burn me down.
Yea, and the same can be said for an escort or science ship. I'm not sure what you're point was.
Run TT1, and you won't have to worry about shield facing. And in pvp the excel does less [burst] dps than the dread because of the lance, so the dread can actually kill faster.
In pve the dread can last a bit longer because of the LT com eng slot. But the excel doesn't get more dps because the extra dps from the Lt com station is made up for by the lance of the dread.
The excel feels more like an escort with its turn rate, but you can't play a dread like you do an escort. You have to play it like a cruiser.
so, here's what I've gathered from the various discussions so far
1 - Odyssey - I can probably make a passable survival-oriented Odyssey, but turn rate and useful weapons loadouts are going to limit its offensive capability, which is, coincidentally, going to limit its utility in both PVE and PVP
2 - Assault cruiser - seems everyone finds this to be a useful ship type - the more specialized vessels seem to trade something for gaining something else - dreadnought trades manueverability for specialized damage dealing abilities, excelsior trades survivability for maneuverability and increased outgoing dps, odyssey trades maneuverability and dps for survivability
3 - Dreadnought - seems like there are lots of people using these, and they seem to like it - I should be getting roughly the same maneuverability I get out of an odyssey, a *little* less survivability, but the potential for a significantly more dedicated DPS platform - I'm leaning towards the dreadnought as my end ship, although I've still got some debate
also, there seems to be both a viable beam build for the dreadnought, and a viable cannon build for the dreadnought - as to which is *better*, seems to vary significantly depending on playstyle decisions - I'll have to see about that
4 - Excelsior refit (Enterprise-B) - this is the diciest of the end-game cruiser options, it sounds like - the re-tasking of engineer boff positions means a very different engineer boff loadout, making survivability more...delicate. The increased manueverability and power offers some of the best maneuver for cruisers, but still doesn't come close, boff/tac wise or maneuver, equipment-wise to escorts - generally described, the exc-refit is sounding a lot like a poormans escort PLUS a poor mans cruiser - I'm not *sure* how I feel about that
again, thank you all for the spirited (and mostly polite) discussion - I'm hoping this has been as helpful to other folk as it has been to me - and of course, my statements above are based on my understanding and simplification of the information i've gotten from the thread so far - it's very possible I may have misinterpreted, or mis-simplified, the information, and I welcome anyone to correct me if any of the above summaries is violently inaccurate
1) Excelsior for all intents-and-purposes is on-par with the dread. The difference in burst isn't so big that it makes the ship weak in pvp, It is just that the turn rate is what makes up for it; which, honestly I admit may make this ship more attractive to certain players who enjoy this. It is also cheaper than the dread, and honestly had I know how good it was (about as good as the dread), I would probably have just bought this ship instead.
NOTE: If you can get a Galor, it is far better than the excel. They're essentially the same ship, just the glaor has a turn rate that is as good as most science ships, which makes it leaps and bounds better than the excel.
2) Assualt cruiser... well you can really go wrong with this ship. Not the best, but its free and highly versatile.
3) Odyssey is just too slow for my taste. Low dps aside, I just personally don't like the size or design of the ship.
1) I only pvp accidentally in my Oddy (Ker'rat) but do "well". I do well in pve, more as a tank than a dps. I run her as a pure beam cruiser and find fire at will to be very helpful getting stuff shooting at me instead of the squishies
3)I'm thinking about getting a Dread also, probably will.
I know that in my escort with DHCs I play one way and in me Oddy I play another. One of the things that makes this game so fun
That lance is only good when its in arc, and it hits, and its cooldown is pretty long, as well as taking out BO skills after its used (or visa-versa), try that with a nimble BOP, most know to stay clear of your nose.
Like you said, you can't depend on using DC/DHC in PvP, so that pretty much takes out total usefullness of them , unless one decides to avoid PvP (at that point, most ships would work fine).
The Excelsior is a more aggresive stop-gap between Escorts and Cruisers, and it acts like it. The Dreadnaught is very blunt and inflexible between the two, its very hard to take the initiative once engaged in combat. Its the equivalent to the "cannon ships" that the Europeans parked in the sea to take on the Arabian fleets comming to attack Europe, they needed the Arabian ships to roll into thier zones to be usefull (which with the Arabs not having cannons, they did so, and the ships did very well). Those ships weren;t going to chase down the Arabian fleets, they would been chewed up.
My point on both working for a type of person is just that, very few people can jump between a Dreadnaught and a Fleet Escort and do well with the same playstyle, and those with varying playstyle would still have a big problem.
There are people who see the things given up by taking a Dread' blanaced out by the Dread's pluses, but other people don't see it the same way. It doesnt make either right.
But they can't always stay out. Although a BOP will just hit and run most of the time anyway. But escorts that don't run after the first 2 volleys will sometimes get too close to me, i.e. with 2k of my ship. When that happens, I reverse, EjWP, Evasive, and they're caught in a position where they can move out of my nose. Doesn't happen often with good player, but I get it every now and then. Although the "good" one always hit and run, which means they can't kill me.
Also... I do want to point out that the ones that have the best weapons (mk12 purple non-borg weapons) and/or cstore universal consoles form other ships will beat me more often then other who don't I just can't match the dps/utility that they have.
This is true. But if you're going to get an exel, you might as well get a galor, which superior to the excel in the sense that it is much more manuverable; making the excel less desirable.
By other people do you mean "you"?. I mean, if all you cared about are the things you lose going from an escort to a cruiser, and not the things that you gain, why switch? You should stay with an escort. The only reason you would want to make the switch is because you want to gain in other areas and lose out on others.
I know the tactic well, I've used it with about every cruiser type ship I have. But as you say, it only works now and then. I am surprised they just dont hit "evasive Maneuvers" and Dueterium tanks to evade from you.
Maybe if I could get a Galor, I might, but I haven't been able to, so that makes it moot.
No, several people in this game have expressed similar statements when discussing ships. Players in my fleet have this same discussion too.As a matter of fact, I do switch between several ships (I own the majority of the classes in this game) to fit my mood. My engineer has used the DN for a long time for STF's because it doesnt need to be a high mobility ship, in PvP its an Excel'. I doubt that you have read what I have said in the Galaxy-X chats in the forums here with Hak' and the rest.
As afar as my Tac' I switch between the Fleet Escort and the Excell all the time, usually depending on what the mission calls for. If my fleet is going escort heavy, I use the Excel' to help with healing but able to keep up with them better than the other cruisers (while still putting out dps). The device slots come in handy too.
Yea only every now and then. And usually never against a good player. Still, there are other useful tactics.
Well if you can afford an excelsior, you can more-or-less afford a Galor. 1600 c-points = ~350,000 dlilithium = 350 uncommon unreplicatables = ~35 mil EC. And every now and then I see a Galor for sale for 50 mil EC, so with just a little more EC or some extra dilithium, you can pick up a galor. So my point stands.
Except I use my dread with my tac, and it is highly mobile for 1/3 of the time. 10 sec worth of evasive, then 18 sec CD (will get it down to 15 sec one of these days), and then another 10 sec worth of evasive. So it's about 10/28 sec or ~1/3 of the battle (soon to be 10/25 sec), and I do pretty well in pvp with it.
There is never a time that I "need" to switch out of the dread to keep up in dps. I pumps out plenty of damage in both pvp and pve; In pve, if you can't keep up in dps with an escort in a dread, doing anything except cure then I don't know what to tell you. Also there isn't a need to heal anyone is pve as escorts should either be able to heal themselves through normal damage or be one shot'd like everyone else even if you heal them.
In pvp if an escort is being focused, you can't do enough healing to keep it alive. It would die before you get a chance to select him as your target. The only hope an escort has is escape, and you would be better laying down some dps (phaser proc, traget engines, etc.) and warp plasma to cover him than to heal him.
If you enjoy all types of ships then that is great, and I applaud your diverse skill set. I personally can only ever use tac with an escort or cruiser. However, I just wanted to point out that there isn't anything the excel is better at than the dread that the dread doesn't make up for in some other way.
There are, as any ship with any other occasion.
Except the the market value has dropped, right now 100 uncommon unreplicatables are going for 10 million, I would need to sell 500 to get 50million.As more people figure this out, it will become LESS expensive to buy unreplicatables, and more expensive for the Galor (assuming thier scarcity remains consistant). Honestly more than that to realisticly expect to afford one on the exchange, right now its 80 million.
I would still have to "stumble" over the rare one offered at a lower price. It's more realistic to expect 2,000 plus Cstore points. Plus I got the Excel on sale.
Then you have never teamed with four FAST driving escort players, I need to keep up with them, which is almost impossible with a Gal-X's turn rate, and we do pretty good when we are grouped, and I do lend both fire/heal support for them. STF's are PvE, and they (escorts) DO need heals. And I do just fine with dps in an Excel, Escort etc.
Not in my experience, I have been able to heal my teammates when ganged up on to give them extra life in battle, and I do lay down fire support, probably more than one could expect from a Gal-X (save a crit hit from the Lance), remember I have a Lt. Commander Tactcal BoFF.
See , here is where you missed the point I have made. I had been initially talking about the give/take of AN ESCORT VS. CRUISER, because someone told them they should be in an escort. You started the Gal-X vs. Excel' based on what I was saying about escorts vs. cruisers.
2000 vs 1600, even with real money it's $6. For a better ship, it's not that bad of a deal. And I do believe at this point no one will be getting an excel on sale anytime soon.
What do you mean by "keep up"? As in going from place to place, or dps? Because I don't really see where you need to move so much back and forth in an stf. Honest question, I don't understand what you mean.
That crit from the lance can kill an opponent outright, which is probably more useful because it instantly gives you numerical superiority.
But also just so we're on the same page... here are the numbers...
CRF1 vs CRF2
Base DPS (using my dread): 954
CRF1: 1243
CRF2: 1340
Difference: 97 DPS
10 sec effect: 970 total extra damage.
in a 3 min window: 970 * 6 = 5820 total extra damage.
THY1 vs THY 2
Base damage (raw damage): 4793
THY1: 5336 * 2 = 10,672
THY2: 4130 * 3 = 12,390
Difference: 1,718
in a 3 min window: 1,718 * 6 = 10,308
Total disparity caused by having higher level Boffs: 16,128 (in favor of Excelsior)
Phaser lance every 3 mins: 21,322
Difference: 5,194 (in favor of the dread)
So... you are wrong. I can give more fire support in my dread than you can in the excel even with the higher level BOFFs.
And before you say suppressing fire = continuous firing, continuously shooting at someone in pvp doesn't mean anything unless you can put pressure on them; i.e. make them worry about dying. And there is nothing that can make someone worry better than a 40k crit in the face with a lance.
Actually all you mentioned was the "take" from an escort, and did not mention anything about the give of a cruiser until I pointed it out.
That takes too much selling, trading and hoping that situations end up right to happen. If I want to "purchase" a ship, make it available in the C-Store. The Galor is hardly "the Holy Grail" of cruisers. I'll spend my EC on better thats that make the ship attack better.
Yes, keeping up with a fast moving escort group, exploit the small group that has managed to (10k-ish) break away from the main group, reshore a side that is outnumberedthings one would normally see in Kerrat. The Galaxy (and X) would be in the wake of "wait for me guys", where I am not.
In fire support, were are speaking the difference of an anvil and a hammer. Like to be the anvil, I strip the shields quickly (without need of spike damage) so my 'scorts can hammer them to death.I am not the killing blow, but the one that helps the group get there, also shooting down targetable torps too. Unless your fighting a slower moving ship, you cant garauntee that your getting that lance fired off (and then critting) every three minutes. And I also use BO1 instead of HYT along with CRF to ensure shields stay down. It's the little guys job to finish them off, and they do just fine with that.
And then acted like the DN was the only choice for a tac', of which it isnt.
Weps so far. Forward two dual beam banks. (mix of tetreyon and polaron weapons.) One quantum torpedo launcher and one turret.
(i catch a lot of flack for using turrets)
Aft weapons 3more turrets and one quantum torpedo launcher.
Before anyone gripes about turrets hear me out on it.
My dps seems small by numbers but with the slow turn rate the turrets save me constantly. Having the 360 fire arc keeps a steady bead of weapon fire on my target at all times. With two tac officers using torpedo spread and rapid cannon fire i make up a lot of dps loss, Attack pattern Alpha helps on that, and the weapons abilities to rip shields apart and weaken enemy ship power levels helps. A couple torpedo spreads later and im moving onto the next big target. I also keep fleet help and scorpion fighters for added fire support. Ship is mostly spect out to adsorb damage reflect it back and hit you at every angle. She turns fast enough that i can get into torpedo arc when i need too. Otherwise i have out dps'ed some escorts
lol kerrat...
Also I'm still having a hard time understanding how an escort would have faster full impulse that the dread... always though it was the same speed.
But the thing is with the dread I can be both the anvil AND the hammer. I'm not restricted to one role.
Thrust to weight ratios still have an effect in space. (Presuming) the same amount of thrust from the engine, the lighter ship accelerates faster (and can maintain it)
Hey, if you can really manage that, more power to you, but one man/ship can't be the whole team either, and there isn't a ship in this game that can make up for that (except the Oberth, of course).
As for Cyells last comment, I would ask the same question. I use tetryon beams and cannons on my dread. 2 Tac consoles amplify beams, 1 Tac console buffs the appropriate torp type. Using 1 beam type seems optimal. If one wants other types of beams in the mix to get those other debuffs, I suggest having each member of a team run a different type for their ship. Just an idea.
On my VA, I have a advanced fleet escort, an Oddyssey, a Dreadnought, a Star Cruiser, and others. Each seems to have advantages. In the dread I use 2 DH cannons, 1 beam, and a transphasic torp front and 2 turrets, a trans torp, and a rare plasma torp rear. The torps will change eventually. The dread seems much more fun to fly but I seem to fly more like an escort than a cruiser, making a devastating head on guns blazing run at the target, but a huge circle to bring the main guns back on target. The very rare double speed engine makes speed no problem. What I needs is to find a better way to keep shooting more and flying less. The usual tactic in a cruiser is a 45 degree starboard or port approach to get a broadside, maneuver, rinse and repeat. Escorts target and fire, circle rinse and repeat or reverse fire and fire some more. Right?
D
So what is the best tactic for a dread flown by a Tac with my loadout? I have good Boffs skilled for survival, lots of special purchase consoles, have yet to die in the dread, but haven't run an STF yet.
That makes sense. Although I'm not sure how much difference there really is between a dread and an excel. Seems to me the difference would be fairly marginal. No? Do you really see a large difference in take-off speed?
This is true. But I never claimed I was a one man army with or without the dread. And as much dps as I can muster from the dread, escorts still do significantly more. I'm not disputing that.
What I am trying to say however, is that once you get someone's shields down, you have a very small window of oppertunity to kill him/her before shields are rerouted, healed, or they escape. And the lance (or the disruptor equivalent on the claw) is really the best way to cram as much damage into that window of oppertunity as you can.
If you mean broadsides, I would actually suggest using all 8 beams, and pick up BFaW. It is very effective and very simple to use. Use 3 of the same tac consoles (tetryon in your case), and just wear people down.
See the Dragon:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=251422
The dragon, makes the suggestion of a DBB or torp in the front, but you can trade that for the 8th beam array, to get the most our of BFaW.
Or use a cannon ship:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=256974
Just keep moving, don'd stop unless you know you're going to get a kill. Get 3 conn doffs, purple ones if you afford it, blues totherwise. This reduces your CD on evasive by quite a bit, and comes in really handy.
If an escort gets on your ***, but is stupid enough to get close to you, go into reverse, eject warp plasma, and evasive manuvers for the speed boost. And all of a sudden you're the one on his ***, with tac buffs ready to go, tractor beam, and lance in the face.
I definately have, comming off the line the Excel feels more responsive and rolls quicker than my Gal-X, and the Escorts more notably than the Excel'. Can'ts say for Science ships, I use the Breen set for those, so never really bothered to compare.
I am more a fan of the close range MK XII Tricobalt up the tailpipe, myself. Less dramatics, but big-bada-boom.
The biggest suggestion I can offer is to stick with a group, the Gal-X is the best anchorship in the game at the moment. As far as loadout, I wouldnt use more than one DC/DHC, but cannons/turrets are a good choice because Cannon Rapid Fire 1 doesn't disrupt the cooldown for the lance like Beam Overload does (I tend to keep one FAW1 with me if I get froggy on beams).
As far as turning, I've found throwing the ship in reverse during a turn and making a three point turn to be helpful in narrowing the radius. Also a copy of Auxialliary to Inertial Dampners can cut the radius too.
1 Ensign and 1 Lieutenant Tac console
3 minute cooldown on Phaser Lance ... which really sux when it doesn't hit anything
I don't have it all geared up yet but i get the feeling I'll be playing my escort and Oddy more
TBH with you, it might have been a good idea to wait till 15th march and check out the new t5 varients.
FAW 1 FAW 2 Beta 2
HE1 TSS2
EPTW1 EPTS2 E-team 3 Extends 3
EPTW1 EPTS2
8 beams
I've bought a couple ships in the C-Store... just to try them...
Started out with the Light Reliant Class Cruiser like everyone else and then went up to the Constitution and bought the Exeter refit...
But when it came time for my third ship, I did not want an Excelsior and I did not like the Commander Rank Heavy Cruiser options, and so moved up to the Akira Heavy Escort and bought the Thunderchild refit to go with it...
So I've tried the various versions of the ships, I flew my Heavy Escort based on the standard layout as an Akira, as well as the Thunderchild refit layout; and done the same with my Constitution/Exeter Cruiser...
I've worked my way up through the PVE game, and just last night recieved my Promotion to Captain.
I was looking forward to stepping back into a big Cruiser.
However, I chose to play a Tactical based character...
But...
I like Cruisers...
I was never much of a fan of the other Ship Classes such as the Akira; sure it looks pretty... and ok the Defiant is a tough 'little' ship ... (little?) ... but it just doesn't look like a Star Trek ship to me... Its not iconic enough...
Maybe if Paramount did a show centered around a ship and crew and it was an Akira Class; instead of the Galaxy, Constitution or the Intrepid... as it was those ships that made Star Trek what it is...
So...
Damnit Jim... I like Cruisers... NOT Escorts!
So is it any wonder, that I am sorely disappointed at the lack of Tactical capabilities in Cruisers and their horribly SLOW turn rates? Why can't I fly a Cruiser into a fight with a pair of forward Cannons and Torpedoes and tear my opponent apart; fly past them while they're still reacting to what the heck hit them, unleash my aft weapons on them, and then pull a fast "come about" for a final forward assault?
Thats the strategy I took with my Thunderchild refit Heavy Escort; loaded up with Dual Cannons, Quantum Torpedos, and an aft Turret... all Rare or Uncommon MK VI's that I either bought on the Exchange or acquired from mission rewards; ... PLUS, a pair of Rare MK VI RCS cons with +22 turn rates each; and other consoles for Tactical and Science, to enhance my various weapon and their damage outputs... and the best shields I could find..
I dumped over 200K energy credits into my Heavy Escort and then turned around and dumped a ton more EC's into my Boffs to ensure that they had the skills needed, to make the best use of my ship and its weapons...
Alpha III, with Rapid Fire II and Torpedo: High Yield II ... there is not much that can take a full frontal assault from my ship...
Combine that with my Boff's also having things like Tactical Team II, Engineering Team II, Emergency Power to Shields... etc...
My ship practically IS a tank, taking on several enemy ships at once, taking a hell of a beating; and still assaulting the heck out of my targets... the Klingon/Romulan Bird of Prey's just can't survive a single full frontal salvo and they're gone within a matter seconds... though granted they're smaller, lesser teir ships, but still I get 3, 4 or even 5 of them swarming me plus the Romulan ones shooting those damned plasma weapons at me...
Yet, I can take it..
They can't... 1 firing round, full frontal, and one ship is gone within seconds, then a sudden and quick "turn on the dime/ come about" maneuver and the next ship is under my gun sights and turning tail to run from me...
Sure, I know I may not have the best setup for PvP , but thats not my thing and I didn't come to STO for the PvP.... I built my ship to survive the PvE encounters that it sees; and I am sorely dismayed that I can't do this with a Cruiser!
So last night, dispite looking forward to trying out the iconic Galaxy Class...
After looking at its specs and comparing with the Tactical Escort Classes...
Guess which one I chose as a Tactical Captain?
I loved playing with my Constitution/Exeter... she was a mighty beast in the early game Fights... but she just couldn't get the job done as quickly or as efficiently as my newer Heavy Escort...
Add to this...
I'm frustrated with my BoFF's... I have two Tactical BoFF's and they have awesome skills for my ships combat style, but they're getting up in Rank like I am... and the damned ships that Cryptic makes available to me, handicaps them at their current Rank; limiting them to lower grade Bridge Stations, when their pushing Lt. Commander and Commander rank skills that they can't even use... cause all but one is stuck in a Lieutenant station...
Their best skills, are completely useless to me, until I get up to Teir 5 Admiral, and either acquire a Tactical Escort RETROfit; or a Multi-Vector Advanced Escort...
I probably will not buy the Sao Paulo refit for my new Tactical Escort because other then fancier looks and an extra Ensign BoFF station, I do not understand what good that ship would do me...
An ENSIGN station??? On a Teir 4 Captain ranked ship?!? ... when we've had out BoFF's from the Level 1 and they've been leveling up with us all this time... and have much better skills they can use?
An ENSIGN Station??? Seriously?
WTF Cryptic?
Why can't we just design our ships in the Shipyards to have the BoFF Stations that WE want them to have, based on our own Rank and Game Level; instead of the ones that Cryptic wants us to have?
Then everyone can select any ship/hull design that they want, flew the ship the way they want to fly it; and have an STO that is that much more enjoyable!
There are plenty of excellent ensign level BoFF skills that make higher level ships work well.
Hazard Emitters 1
Tac' Team/Science Team/Engi' team 1
Polarize Hull 1
Auxiliary to Inertial Dampers 1
Emergency power to weapons 1
High yield Torpedo 1
Beam Overload 1
Fire At Will 1
and many others.
Using these to supplement a ships already high level skills can add that extra "ooomph" to what a person is trying to do with that ship.