I never quite understood why they made it so that you can only enter the turbo when leaving the shipyard and not whilst entering it from the main floor...
I may be wrong on this, but didn't STO have an animated turbolift loading screen during beta?
IIRC it also had an animated warp field loading screen for zoning between systems/sector blocks.
When I saw the title for this thread the first thing that came to mind where the turbolifts from DS9: The Fallen. In that game, the turbolifts showed them moving for a few seconds before entering the loading screen.
For example, when you stepped into the DS9 turobolift in ops, because it has no doors, you'd see the lift descend for about 5 meters then it would enter loadscreen. The reverse would happen on exiting the loadscreen, you emerge on the map, seeing the lift travel for the last few meters.
I'll see if I can find any videos online, failing that I'll have a look for my copy of the game and see if I can fraps it.
It makes me wonder why they didn't develop any progressive loading methods yet.
Locking someone in place during a transition is fine just as long as it doesn't break immersion too much. At the moment, anything is better than "NOW LOADING" every 15 seconds.
... vertical maps aside, you've got those giant floating mushrooms that show up on various maps and fly up and down- and I've never seen them break. While I've never managed to get on top of them to see if they're clipping enabled or not, at the very least you've got the tech.
it's definitely not a priority, and to be honest I'd much rather just have a turbolift animation for a loading screen, but it's something to think about.
We can animate things, sure. We can't animate the collision.
If you got on top of those, you would stand on top of whatever the starting position was, and the mushroom would move up and down around you.
We can animate things, sure. We can't animate the collision.
If you got on top of those, you would stand on top of whatever the starting position was, and the mushroom would move up and down around you.
Unrelated.
Having just spoken to H2orat about cutscenes and animation in the cryptic engine... I think I understand where you're coming from.
From what he said, you guys and animate and make objects move... but engines not so much. So you can put in a ship in a cutscene, but the trails won't follow it because they're and effect... Is that right?
We can animate things, sure. We can't animate the collision.
If you got on top of those, you would stand on top of whatever the starting position was, and the mushroom would move up and down around you.
Unrelated.
I think one way to make the elevator concept work would probably require locking the player into place and making the elevator a part of their avatar while in motion.
It's not hopelessly complicated and there are multiple solutions. For the life of me, I'm trying to remember how I handled this when I coded a sidescrolling platformer. It's been about five years since the last time I made one.
Doing a lift in a single player game is vastly different.
This issue has been raised regularly since I started (COH)
The issues are mostly involving horrible pathing with pets/npcs. We do a process called beaconizing, which places little nodes all over the world, to assist AI in pathing around things. Moving things/changing things do not (can not) get beaconized, so AI freaks out around those things.
There were other reasons as well, but I can't remember what they are at the moment.
Doing a canned animation kind of thing, in which you click the door, and then we take control away from you for a period of time, while we animat you entering, moving somwhere, and exiting, is more feasible, but we really hate taking control away from players like that, as it often feels crappy. Your pets still wouldn't be able to come with you, and I don't know how much would have to be done to get that to work. It would be significant though.
Doing a lift in a single player game is vastly different.
This issue has been raised regularly since I started (COH)
The issues are mostly involving horrible pathing with pets/npcs. We do a process called beaconizing, which places little nodes all over the world, to assist AI in pathing around things. Moving things/changing things do not (can not) get beaconized, so AI freaks out around those things.
There were other reasons as well, but I can't remember what they are at the moment.
Doing a canned animation kind of thing, in which you click the door, and then we take control away from you for a period of time, while we animat you entering, moving somwhere, and exiting, is more feasible, but we really hate taking control away from players like that, as it often feels crappy. Your pets still wouldn't be able to come with you, and I don't know how much would have to be done to get that to work. It would be significant though.
Dan Stahl said when he left as EP that his big regret about STO was the overemphasis on pets on the ground.
My overall feeling is that BOs should be pets on the ground but should be represented a different way in ship interior maps, scripted actors who respond to mission-based commands and are costumed as your BOs,perhaps.
Basically, a split between ship interior and away team gameplay.
I don't disagree with him. In CO, one of the last things I did was to rebuild the entire powerhouse, including making a bunch of dueling arenas that were intended to work like hideouts, where the players could swap the surroundings before starting a match.
I had it all working wonderfully. . . then we remembered pets. . . and we had to pull that functionality entirely.
I don't disagree with him. In CO, one of the last things I did was to rebuild the entire powerhouse, including making a bunch of dueling arenas that were intended to work like hideouts, where the players could swap the surroundings before starting a match.
I had it all working wonderfully. . . then we remembered pets. . . and we had to pull that functionality entirely.
My big thing is... Most of our ground play right now is an away mission. So I think there's room to establish different rules for away missions and standard shipboard play.
Even if Al's anal retentive systems designer consistency beast flared up, it would only mean redoing a handful of missions to be consistent with an alternative "boarding party" playstyle.
I also can see where things like a cover system and higher emphasis on melee would fall under boarding party rules. I know I outlined a lot of this in a post recently but, just watching Trek, it sure seems to me like most starships barely allow for phasers to work whereas the guns blazing approach we have in game is actually a pretty good representation of away team combat and trench warfare on the shows.
The shows were never too consistent with whether weapons didn't work at all or were just restricted and sent an APB to ship security but I think that could be simulated by disabling primary weapons fire on all ranged weapons aboard ships and then making the secondary a super-aggro taunt, higher damage, lower accuracy... And then having everyone get a full range of melee abilities, even with weapons equipped. Maybe a minimum range required on weapons.
So if you want to have a shootout, be prepared to dodge/roll/etc. And be prepared for it to be slow, which forces cover-style mechanics. Otherwise, lunge at somebody and jab eachother in the face like a real Captain does it.
Your pets still wouldn't be able to come with you, and I don't know how much would have to be done to get that to work. It would be significant though.
I replayed the video in my mind of the dog that didn't follow the owner into the elevator last week (or so). He got a quick trip to the ceiling before his collar broke. He came out alright, but I am glad he wasn't wearing a metal choke collar.
Doing a canned animation kind of thing, in which you click the door, and then we take control away from you for a period of time, while we animat you entering, moving somwhere, and exiting, is more feasible, but we really hate taking control away from players like that, as it often feels crappy.
I don't think it's creepy! :P
Oh, and Star Wars has like 30 elevators on every planet. Couldn't you just ask one of them how they did it
Kidding I know, different codes for different games, etc etc
But seriously, couldn't elevators be treated similarly to zoning? Place a trigger beacon below the floor beneath an elevator then place a beacon above the top area or a beacon behind the elevator wall making pets walk into it?
Yes, we could probably do a bunch of fancy things with loading screens, but that would take a lot of work, and would take time away from everything else we want to work on now.
they had fancy loading screens before i once remember there was a beaming animation loading screen for when you beamed to/from your ship.
I dont know if those files are still around somewhere, but it would be neater than a loading screen with a loading bar when beaming places.
Doing a lift in a single player game is vastly different.
This issue has been raised regularly since I started (COH)
The issues are mostly involving horrible pathing with pets/npcs. We do a process called beaconizing, which places little nodes all over the world, to assist AI in pathing around things. Moving things/changing things do not (can not) get beaconized, so AI freaks out around those things.
There were other reasons as well, but I can't remember what they are at the moment.
Doing a canned animation kind of thing, in which you click the door, and then we take control away from you for a period of time, while we animat you entering, moving somwhere, and exiting, is more feasible, but we really hate taking control away from players like that, as it often feels crappy. Your pets still wouldn't be able to come with you, and I don't know how much would have to be done to get that to work. It would be significant though.
The Old Republic seems to "solve" the pet/AI pathnig by basically teleporting the pet around if it gets lost. Not very immersive, but beats freaked out pets.
Of course, TOR's elevators are also elevators of death. Quite a few proud Jedi Warriors and Bounty Hunters have plumetted to their death, missing the elevator platforms...
The Old Republic seems to "solve" the pet/AI pathnig by basically teleporting the pet around if it gets lost. Not very immersive, but beats freaked out pets.
Yup, that's how it would have to work.
The problem isn't teleporting them to you if they get far away (i think they should already be doing this?)
The problem is when you enter, and go up/down in an elevator. Your pets will look like morons. They'll try to follow you in, but they'll get stuck on the doors, they'll replay the same movement several times, they'll fall through the ground. Just crappy looking stuff.
I haven't played TOR, so maybe they handle it better. . . but that's what I would expect in our game if we just put in the moving platforms with no update to AI.
The problem isn't teleporting them to you if they get far away (i think they should already be doing this?)
I have never seen this happen in STO, ever.
I can't recall offhand whether I ever had any fail to transition with me to a new map, but I've frequently seen them get stuck and even recently saw one where pathing was so bad that one of my BO's actually ran away from me in the opposite direction.
I put this stuff down to "game quirks" and don't let it bother me too much, but I sure would like to have a "site-to-site away team transport" when things don't work out quite the way they should.
The problem isn't teleporting them to you if they get far away (i think they should already be doing this?)
The problem is when you enter, and go up/down in an elevator. Your pets will look like morons. They'll try to follow you in, but they'll get stuck on the doors, they'll replay the same movement several times, they'll fall through the ground. Just crappy looking stuff.
I haven't played TOR, so maybe they handle it better. . . but that's what I would expect in our game if we just put in the moving platforms with no update to AI.
If they don't make it onto the elevator with you they will just stop moving all together and once you step off the elevator they will teleport behind you. I've seen one "fall and die" from a cutscene elevator in the hundreds of hours I've played it, but never any of the actual moving elevators all over the game.
I do not understand why STO has difficulty for elevators when TOR has moving platforms and single player games can have elevators. it would just make the deck all in one instance and not one for each level of a station, ship or building.
The problem isn't teleporting them to you if they get far away (i think they should already be doing this?)
The problem is when you enter, and go up/down in an elevator. Your pets will look like morons. They'll try to follow you in, but they'll get stuck on the doors, they'll replay the same movement several times, they'll fall through the ground. Just crappy looking stuff.
I haven't played TOR, so maybe they handle it better. . . but that's what I would expect in our game if we just put in the moving platforms with no update to AI.
^^^^^
Generally, (played TOR in beta abd signed up about two weeks after launch when the server rush was done - never seen a queue there since) what you describe is how TOR companions react when your character enters one on the moving elevator platforms. For 'standard' elevators they just do a black loading screen with no info as they load teh zone transistion.
The problem isn't teleporting them to you if they get far away (i think they should already be doing this?)
The problem is when you enter, and go up/down in an elevator. Your pets will look like morons. They'll try to follow you in, but they'll get stuck on the doors, they'll replay the same movement several times, they'll fall through the ground. Just crappy looking stuff.
I haven't played TOR, so maybe they handle it better. . . but that's what I would expect in our game if we just put in the moving platforms with no update to AI.
Actually, that is exactly what they do in TOR: get stuck on the edges of the borders of the elevators, replay movements, get stuck somewhere until you get far enough away and then they teleport to your location.
They'll try to follow you in, but they'll get stuck on the doors, they'll replay the same movement several times, they'll fall through the ground. Just crappy looking stuff.
It is, indeed, crappy looking stuff. I'm fine with STO not having moving elevators, because it looks terrible in TOR.
Comments
Youtube prevails
http://youtu.be/yk6Xvez-DUM?t=3m54s
Locking someone in place during a transition is fine just as long as it doesn't break immersion too much. At the moment, anything is better than "NOW LOADING" every 15 seconds.
We can animate things, sure. We can't animate the collision.
If you got on top of those, you would stand on top of whatever the starting position was, and the mushroom would move up and down around you.
Unrelated.
Having just spoken to H2orat about cutscenes and animation in the cryptic engine... I think I understand where you're coming from.
From what he said, you guys and animate and make objects move... but engines not so much. So you can put in a ship in a cutscene, but the trails won't follow it because they're and effect... Is that right?
*shrugs then* :P Oh well... there goes my whole tenuous understanding of the cryptic engine hehe
I think one way to make the elevator concept work would probably require locking the player into place and making the elevator a part of their avatar while in motion.
It's not hopelessly complicated and there are multiple solutions. For the life of me, I'm trying to remember how I handled this when I coded a sidescrolling platformer. It's been about five years since the last time I made one.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... Sorry. I'm laughing not at your expense.
There used to be load screens very much like what you described very early in the game.
This issue has been raised regularly since I started (COH)
The issues are mostly involving horrible pathing with pets/npcs. We do a process called beaconizing, which places little nodes all over the world, to assist AI in pathing around things. Moving things/changing things do not (can not) get beaconized, so AI freaks out around those things.
There were other reasons as well, but I can't remember what they are at the moment.
Doing a canned animation kind of thing, in which you click the door, and then we take control away from you for a period of time, while we animat you entering, moving somwhere, and exiting, is more feasible, but we really hate taking control away from players like that, as it often feels crappy. Your pets still wouldn't be able to come with you, and I don't know how much would have to be done to get that to work. It would be significant though.
Dan Stahl said when he left as EP that his big regret about STO was the overemphasis on pets on the ground.
My overall feeling is that BOs should be pets on the ground but should be represented a different way in ship interior maps, scripted actors who respond to mission-based commands and are costumed as your BOs,perhaps.
Basically, a split between ship interior and away team gameplay.
I had it all working wonderfully. . . then we remembered pets. . . and we had to pull that functionality entirely.
My big thing is... Most of our ground play right now is an away mission. So I think there's room to establish different rules for away missions and standard shipboard play.
Even if Al's anal retentive systems designer consistency beast flared up, it would only mean redoing a handful of missions to be consistent with an alternative "boarding party" playstyle.
I also can see where things like a cover system and higher emphasis on melee would fall under boarding party rules. I know I outlined a lot of this in a post recently but, just watching Trek, it sure seems to me like most starships barely allow for phasers to work whereas the guns blazing approach we have in game is actually a pretty good representation of away team combat and trench warfare on the shows.
The shows were never too consistent with whether weapons didn't work at all or were just restricted and sent an APB to ship security but I think that could be simulated by disabling primary weapons fire on all ranged weapons aboard ships and then making the secondary a super-aggro taunt, higher damage, lower accuracy... And then having everyone get a full range of melee abilities, even with weapons equipped. Maybe a minimum range required on weapons.
So if you want to have a shootout, be prepared to dodge/roll/etc. And be prepared for it to be slow, which forces cover-style mechanics. Otherwise, lunge at somebody and jab eachother in the face like a real Captain does it.
I replayed the video in my mind of the dog that didn't follow the owner into the elevator last week (or so). He got a quick trip to the ceiling before his collar broke. He came out alright, but I am glad he wasn't wearing a metal choke collar.
I don't think it's creepy! :P
Oh, and Star Wars has like 30 elevators on every planet. Couldn't you just ask one of them how they did it
Kidding I know, different codes for different games, etc etc
But seriously, couldn't elevators be treated similarly to zoning? Place a trigger beacon below the floor beneath an elevator then place a beacon above the top area or a beacon behind the elevator wall making pets walk into it?
they had fancy loading screens before i once remember there was a beaming animation loading screen for when you beamed to/from your ship.
I dont know if those files are still around somewhere, but it would be neater than a loading screen with a loading bar when beaming places.
As I've said previously in this thread...
The Old Republic seems to "solve" the pet/AI pathnig by basically teleporting the pet around if it gets lost. Not very immersive, but beats freaked out pets.
Of course, TOR's elevators are also elevators of death. Quite a few proud Jedi Warriors and Bounty Hunters have plumetted to their death, missing the elevator platforms...
I vaguely remember in beta having a loading screen of an elevator, with lights going up and down.
Yup, that's how it would have to work.
The problem isn't teleporting them to you if they get far away (i think they should already be doing this?)
The problem is when you enter, and go up/down in an elevator. Your pets will look like morons. They'll try to follow you in, but they'll get stuck on the doors, they'll replay the same movement several times, they'll fall through the ground. Just crappy looking stuff.
I haven't played TOR, so maybe they handle it better. . . but that's what I would expect in our game if we just put in the moving platforms with no update to AI.
I have never seen this happen in STO, ever.
I can't recall offhand whether I ever had any fail to transition with me to a new map, but I've frequently seen them get stuck and even recently saw one where pathing was so bad that one of my BO's actually ran away from me in the opposite direction.
I put this stuff down to "game quirks" and don't let it bother me too much, but I sure would like to have a "site-to-site away team transport" when things don't work out quite the way they should.
If they don't make it onto the elevator with you they will just stop moving all together and once you step off the elevator they will teleport behind you. I've seen one "fall and die" from a cutscene elevator in the hundreds of hours I've played it, but never any of the actual moving elevators all over the game.
^^^^^
Generally, (played TOR in beta abd signed up about two weeks after launch when the server rush was done - never seen a queue there since) what you describe is how TOR companions react when your character enters one on the moving elevator platforms. For 'standard' elevators they just do a black loading screen with no info as they load teh zone transistion.
Different engines, different priorities. Like I said, we've (devs) have asked for this for years. . . still don't have it.
Actually, that is exactly what they do in TOR: get stuck on the edges of the borders of the elevators, replay movements, get stuck somewhere until you get far enough away and then they teleport to your location.
But anyways: Turbo lift loading screen animation. I don't really care about a 3D one that shows my character and pets.
I have played TOR, and this is what your companion does when you enter a moving elevator in that game:
It is, indeed, crappy looking stuff. I'm fine with STO not having moving elevators, because it looks terrible in TOR.