3. the players that do both ground and space usually make diffrent charicters for those roles (being full specs of which ever one they want) as with #1 it forces them to spend points away from what is needed for that charicter
This is exactly why we need a skill tree revision. I have one main Captain I primarily use. I have played her for over a year and I have a storyline for her and everything. She's balanced in space and ground as I wish to enjoy and remain competitive in all aspects of the game. After all she's Captain, she leads her away teams and she commands the ship in space. I can't compete in PVP with a balance build and I shouldn't have to create a ground or space focused clone of her.
Easy solution right here (and you don't even have to pay me for it):
Make the scrollbar a -different- color than the rest of the UI. With the UI being almost 100% Blue or Red, it's easy to miss certain UI elements. Make certain elements stand out more by using different colors.
See? How hard was that?
We have actually talked about doing this. The issue is that we would want to do it as part of a game-wide UI update that would address other problems as well (and hopefully get a bit more LCARS into the style of the game UI.).
Such an update is on the long term schedule, but I don't have details on the exact scope or timeframe yet.
We have actually talked about doing this. The issue is that we would want to do it as part of a game-wide UI update that would address other problems as well (and hopefully get a bit more LCARS into the style of the game UI.).
Such an update is on the long term schedule, but I don't have details on the exact scope or timeframe yet.
Well, you can start by giving a proper LCARS look to all Fed/Klingon consoles. A simple "texture update" for any current console textures should fix all of them at once. It would make the game world seem more "Trek", and remove the total blueness/redness from the game.
The original trailer for STO showed a battle onboard the Galaxy class bridge, complete with full-colored LCARS displays. We've seen images/videos of the new Defiant interior, again with full-colored LCARS. So it's obviously already in progress, and the idea was there from the start. So why are we stuck with blue LCARS everywhere?
A full-UI makeover (graphically) is the best course of action to improve the appearance of the game. Especially for new players. Certainly you guys have graphics artists that are not involved in working on the mechanics of the game? If not, start hiring some. There is plenty of great talents in the community, as well as in other Star Trek community locations.
Anyone else notice Tactical Initiative on the ground being nerfed? On Holo Tac Intiative III "sets current recharge time of abilities to 0 seconds" now on Tribble it "reduces recharge time of all abilities by 0.23%"
If this ability has been changed, please please change it back to 0 seconds. Ground Elite STFs are hard enough already. It will really be a struggle not being able to rely on that instant recharge when you are down to zero health and while an elite tac drone is bearing down on you.
I get where many of the anti-split folks are coming from, and as Borticus said: change is hard. But please bear this in mind:
1) The build that is so "unacceptable" to change is less than a month old anyway. How crucial to your playstyle could it be?
2) If you feel that the 8% nerf is unacceptable because your PVP buddies will walk all over you, remember that they also got the 8% "nerf". The new system will take about a week of testing by the hard-core pvpers before the most attainable uber-builds will be worked out. You may recognize this pattern: It happened at launch (or beta), and again with the last skill revision. We all get the same options, it will work out.
3) It's not a 25% nerf. At worst it's an 8% nerf. As Borticus pointed out, the new costs and point numbers means that the buying power was NOT affected by 25%. Yeah, 8% "nerf" isn't ideal, but this whole whine-fest and rage-quit-fest takes me back to when a certain "other" MMO would adjust Paladin talent trees (or other classes). Everyone would wail and gnash their teeth, and a week later it was business as usual.
Such is the business of MMOs, especially ones made by companies that were sold to a new international corporation and are completely changing their business model. If you are going to quit, wait till the dust settles, and then see how it is. Once the decision is rational and informed and you still want to quit, by all means do so.
Excellent response. As a prior comment said about this being reminiscent of when Blizzard shut down PvP twinks...it totally is. "I wanna play the way I want to play!!! /cry" It's all about people wanting to stomp "non-pure" builds into space dust and feeling good about their superiority. The tears...the delicious tears.
It needs to be said...but to all of you throwing around "Change it or I'm leaving!!!"
CAN I HAVE YOUR STUFF!??
I could very easily say this is the result of crybabies who want to have everything instead of understanding to be great at something, you have to sacrifice something else. I sacrifice the ability to cut through ground content like swiss cheese in order to have my escort perform at a high level- not in pvp, mind you- but in STFs and other space based content. Instead of understanding a hybrid's sacrifice is they will always be behind a full-spec player in ONE aspect of the game, you complain that its unfair to you (jack-of-all-trades is a master of none.)
And for the record, I never, ever watched anything Star Trek related and thought "Gee, I really want to lead an away team" My trek dreams revolve around commanding starships, not getting my boots dirty. This game has been fantastic in that regard- at least until this revamp (I use that word loosely).
The latest round of skill changes, including the complete overhaul of Ground skills, went live on Tribble yesterday. Already, since the roll-out, weve received a ton of feedback that ranges from full-on support to outright rage. In order to clarify some of the decisions that have gone into these changes, we wanted to address some of the primary points of concern thatve so far been raised. We hope this will help calm some fears about the direction were going with these changes, and the intentions behind them.
1) We wanted a true split of resources, not being forced to sacrifice my full-space spec for ground.
This is almost exactly what you got.
As was posted yesterday, the actual spending power lost for Space skills was only around a magnitude of 8% on average across all ranks, despite being asked to now spend 25% of your points on Ground skills.
In other words, as it sits right now, you havent been asked to sacrifice much, and have been given a new pool of additional skill points that must be spent on Ground skills. Not only are more skill points being given to players, we also reduced the cost of high-tier skills that were highly sought-after.
In addition to the skill split changes, your Space buying power is being watered down slightly by the addition of one new T1 skill (Drive Coils), and a new T4 skill (Starship Threat Generation). This was going to happen whether we split the skill pools or not, and is potentially skewing some folks' interpretations of their total buying power.
2) I never play Ground (or Space) missions, why should I have to spend points in skills I never use?
Because, to put it bluntly, thats the way the game is intended to be played. Your choice in which content to lock yourself out of is a choice that you are free to make for yourself. However, by making that decision, you should accept responsibility for the repercussions of that decision (which include: much less content, less customization options when you ignore bridge officer gear, and fewer options to advance your character and receive rewards).
Star Trek Online has always been intended to be BOTH a Space & Ground game, and it was never intended to have either set of systems exist in isolation from the other.
Just as bluntly, Id like to admit that the Skill System has, up until this point, been broken. It failed to meet design intentions, and allowed for aberrant behavior in the form of ignoring one type of gameplay or the other. The majority of the feedback we are hearing at this time seems to be linked to the expectation that the old system was working as intended, which was simply not the case. I know that change is bad and change is scary, but I ask that you also take into consideration the fact that this is just as much a fix to a system that was not working as intended, as it is a streamline and polish.
3) Why not just reward Ground XP for Ground Missions, and Space XP for Space Missions?
This is a much more complicated procedure than this simple request makes it sound. In practice, it would require a complete rebalance of the entire game, including every single mission and reward table, from Level 1 to 50, to ensure that players advance at the proper pace from the content currently available. It would also require an examination of every bit of content we implement moving forward, forcing our content team to adhere to a rigid set of this much space, this much ground guidelines when inventing new missions, rather than letting the storytelling take them where they will.
And thats only the tip of the iceberg for this particular challenge. So no, we cant just do that. This idea was actually discussed and abandoned long ago due to the unwieldy issues that such a delicate balancing act would require on an ongoing basis.
4) I have fewer points than I need to create the build that I want.
In examining the builds referenced by the majority of folks making this claim, Ive noticed a few commonalities:
* Lots of maxed-out, 9-rank skills.
It is not necessary to max out any skill under the new system, for a few reasons:
The last 3 ranks of any skill nets you a benefit of 15% max. Many powers/abilities multiply this variable by a fraction (<1) to calculate the actual skill benefit, resulting in a variance that maxes out at a 15% effect, but is frequently far lower... as little as 1% of this in some cases.
In addition to this, every ability that includes a variable effect (damage, e.g.) has a built-in variance of between 10% and 20% (before crits are calculated, if applicable). This is why using a power will return a wide variety of figures instead of a single, fixed and predictable effect.
And, as the new UI illustrates more clearly, you gain the largest amount of benefit in any particular skill by spending only 3 points in it. More than 50% of the total possible available skill.
When you consider all of these factors in tandem, it's questionable as to whether those last 3 ranks really benefit a player. They remain an option for those seeking to scratch out the last tiny bit of an edge over their opponent, but are by no means a necessity to an effective build.
* Lots of points in skills that were previously unavailable.
Claiming these are intrinsic to your build is a misconception when you consider the logic of the situation...
The following space skills did not exist, and you were incapable of improving the associated stats, prior to Season 5:
- Starship Threat Control
- Driver Coil
- Starship Batteries
- Power Insulators
- Interial Dampers
- Sensors (partially...)
Spending points in the above skills is a new benefit that was previously unattainable under any circumstances. They are new. They are gravy. They improve you without sacrificing anything, and can be easily ignored without changing the combat experience you had prior to Season 5.
In addition to these brand new skills, all of the following skills were previously improved by specific Ship Type skills that could not be used in multiple classes of ships, necessitating respecs if you wanted to switch from (for example) a Cruiser to an Escort:
- Starship Stealth
- Structural Integrity
- Starship Impulse Thrusters
- Starship Hull Plating
- Starship Armor Reinforcements
Spending points in the above skills nets you a larger bonus per rank than the previously-attainable bonuses if you were fully specced in all skills associated with a specific ship class. Recall that these ship bonuses were previously spread across a large number of skills, requiring an enormous skill point investment.
Additionally, the new bonuses now apply to any ship you fly, regardless of the class or rank.
All of the aforementioned statements must be taken into consideration when evaluating the actual combat readiness of any particular skill build, and that seems to be a fact that many players are overlooking when reviewing the recent skill changes.
5) Youre not listening to our feedback, anyway.
Obviously this is not true, as I hope this post illustrates. We do our best to consider as many angles of an issue as possible, as well as the players' best interest. The simple fact that this is on Tribble (the Test Server) is because we want to hear your feedback on these changes.
That being said, there still exist a number of sticky issues that we simply don't have answers for at this time. Instead of giving you any sort of half-answer, we will get back to you as we learn more.
Please continue to raise your concerns and criticisms in a constructive manner. Your feedback is extremely valuable to us in this endeavor and we hope you never feel otherwise.
So far I can tell I've lost power in weapons and aux (these things add up big time guys even 1 power can make a big difference over time. Ive gone from 555 dps on torpedoes to 472. My defense has taken the largest hit dropping 4% in my defense bonus which is a rather large deal. I did gain threat control but no bonus to damage resists from it.
These might not seem like big losses guys but they are the difference between winning and loosing battles. I'm going to keep playing with it and maybe I can find a decent way to offset the loss. Will get back to you. One thing I see that sticks out is a sci ship is going to have to take some fairly big hits to spec for those ability's.
I'll be interested to see what you come up with, but we are pretty happy with the UI as it is on Tribble and I don't foresee any major redesigns in the near future.
Here is my first test run, showing the layout:
I switched the named tiers to Pips due to the spacing issues you mentioned, and I figure running your mouse over it would bring up the full name of that tier (I'm no programer, all my background is in Art and Design).
I put the Ground skills on the left (they should be on the top in the current version IMO) because with the greater amount of space skills, its easy to tell there are going to be MORE skills off to that direction.
I also color coordinated the skills for better separation. I kept everything similar to the current layout as much as possible too, but as you can see its pretty compact.
The text is indeed an issue, my main question is: Do you translate that text directly to other languages, or does it stay the same in every langauge?
Skill trees organized like this tend to be designed around an icon-only approach so that the whole tree definitely fits in one screen. This was an option we considered but ultimately rejected because the skill concepts in STO are pretty abstract; it's much harder to communicate the intent of certain STO skills through just an icon as opposed to a fantasy/sword & sorcery game like Diablo or Dragon Age.
To be honest, you guys have created a lot of identifyable images now with the game. Everyone who has played it knows what a shield item looks like or a battery, those kinds of things. And the Science consoles now match up almost perfectly to the skills, so you can use images directly from those to match up.
Of course, some things (like Willpower) don't have any corresponding icons, so its not going to be perfect, but I took a little extra time and made an Icon based tree too:
I figure something like a graphical system would work better for multiple langauges. And if you look at a game like SWTOR, the skill tree is VERY cryptic at first (no pun intended) but just dragging your mouse over each icon explains what it does, which you have to do anyway right now with the current STO system even though the skill has a specific name (most of the names are just as obtuse as the icons IMO).
I was also thinking of doing something like having the Space skills go upward, with the ground skills below going downward. I'll have to test that out though, maybe with a different graphical setup completely.
I think that it is failry clear that after the 300+ posts in this thread, and all the posts in other threads, that the vast majority of players are completely against this forced split in skillpoint spending.
I can also tell you that it is the same on other forums, online conversations, and even JMan seems to think its not a good idea in the latest episode of STOked:
"Another change coming with this is a forced split of ground and space skills, which is somthing that a lot of people have been asking for. I'm a little worried that they won't like it once they get it. *chuckle* "
I have never felt the need to be this outspoken with any of the changes that STO has had in the past. As a paying customer since launch, I have had faith in Cryptic's ideas and plans, even when I didn't agree 100%. However, in principle alone, (and there are more reasons than just principle) this forced split is absurd.
Call me a doomsday'er if you want, and up until these proposed changes I never thought I would say this, but this will not end well if it goes live to holo.
This is junk. I cant even come close to matching my space build that I have on Holodeck because of this stupid split. Get rid of the required ground skill points. I dont care if I'm effective on the ground or not... I avoid it like the damn plague. I cam to this game to fly a starship and blow up other starships, not to lead an away team and shoot things with phaser rifles. Please for the love of god get rid of the split and let us spend our points where ever we want.
The Good:
The UI is fantastic. I love it.
The Bad:
The split skils, and the required ground skills.
The Ugly:
The fact that this split was thought up at all.
I totally agree!!!! I live in Kerrat - SPACE WAR. Please cryptic, give me back my space points!!!!!! I already feel like the current build on Holodeck took away from space cause I can't get my power lvls as high. Please, get rid of this split!!!!
Anyone else notice Tactical Initiative on the ground being nerfed? On Holo Tac Intiative III "sets current recharge time of abilities to 0 seconds" now on Tribble it "reduces recharge time of all abilities by 0.23%"
If this ability has been changed, please please change it back to 0 seconds. Ground Elite STFs are hard enough already. It will really be a struggle not being able to rely on that instant recharge when you are down to zero health and while an elite tac drone is bearing down on you.
Yeah, I just respeced my tac toon, with the max 9 points in "Squad Command" and Security Escort was reduced to a 41second recharge, not instant.
As much as I hate to say this, a nerf to everyone means that everyone will be doing less damage to everyone, meaning that, even though the numbers are smaller, you'll be doing roughly as much damage as before because your enemy is weaker by the same percentage as you, unless they've spent skill points differently to give them a tiny boost.
No one likes seeing smaller damage numbers, ever. But as much as it sucks, everyone in the game is getting the same nerf, so things, technically, balance out.
Well, you can start by giving a proper LCARS look to all Fed/Klingon consoles. A simple "texture update" for any current console textures should fix all of them at once. It would make the game world seem more "Trek", and remove the total blueness/redness from the game.
The original trailer for STO showed a battle onboard the Galaxy class bridge, complete with full-colored LCARS displays. We've seen images/videos of the new Defiant interior, again with full-colored LCARS. So it's obviously already in progress, and the idea was there from the start. So why are we stuck with blue LCARS everywhere?
A full-UI makeover (graphically) is the best course of action to improve the appearance of the game. Especially for new players. Certainly you guys have graphics artists that are not involved in working on the mechanics of the game? If not, start hiring some. There is plenty of great talents in the community, as well as in other Star Trek community locations.
Can you please explain what you mean by 'proper L-CARS look'? I've heard lots of people say that. I've also read quite a lot about L-CARS design, what the rules of it are, all the panels that have appeared on several versions of Trek. I really don't know what the 'anti-blue' thing is about. the current design is not 100% authentic, but where it deviates I think it does so for good visual design reasons that make the interface immensly 'viewable'. Boring maybe, but providing 'stimulation' is not their job. Their job is to draw as little attention to themselves as possible so that they are not taxing on the eye and mind and let you do what you need to do and get back to the game as soon as possible. It's one of those things that does it's job right when you don't even think about it.
How anyone can claim that they 'didn't know they needed to look for a scroll bar' in 20XX is beyond me. Windows have scroll bars. Just like they have since Bill Gates introduced windows what 20, 30 years ago? Scroll the #TRIBBLE& down people.
How anyone can claim that they 'didn't know they needed to look for a scroll bar' in 20XX is beyond me. Windows have scroll bars. Just like they have since Bill Gates introduced windows what 20, 30 years ago? Scroll the #TRIBBLE& down people.
This game has a VERY steep learning curve!
Just navigating the UI is difficult enough, let alone trying to figure out the different skill trees (BO's vs. Your character) and all the different skills not to mention three kinds of skill training and what the skills actually do...
Sadly, I know a lot of people who walked away from the game before they figured half of this out.
Just navigating the UI is difficult enough, let alone trying to figure out the different skill trees (BO's vs. Your character) and all the different skills not to mention three kinds of skill training and what the skills actually do...
Sadly, I know a lot of people who walked away from the game before they figured half of this out.
I agree that the learning curve is steep, especially for less hard-core MMOers. But scrolling down a window is rather standard procedure. Even a non-smart cell phone can have a scrolling window.
Also, I'm not adverse to a vertical rather than horizontal tree, but the progression needs to be downwards, not upwards. Yes we use the word "tree", but in recalling that steep learning curve, in most Western writing/lreading, we start at the top and work down. That's a more standard flow.
Afterall, we scroll down the page to see the response to the above comment, not up. Most UIs and such work that same way for the same reason. It's what most people do (in Western society, where STO's main market is).
Which is also why it seems hard to comprehend that someone would not think to scroll down...
A lot of people are throwing this word around so this is not directed at any one person, just putting it out there in case it might be useful to anyone who is a little unclear on the difference between a 'sacrifice' and a 'trade off'. It's not really a 'sacrifice' if you are giving up something that has no value to you or that you were going to 'avoid like the plague' in the first place.
[From Dictionary.com]
sac·ri·fice [sak-ruh-fahys] Show IPA noun, verb, -ficed, -fic·ing.
noun
1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4. the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5. a loss incurred in selling something below its value.
Origin:
122575; (noun) Middle English < Old French < Latin sacrificium, equivalent to sacri- (combining form of sacer holy) + -fic-, combining form of facere to make, do1 + -ium -ium; (v.) Middle English sacrifisen, derivative of the noun
... So unless you consider ground combat in STO 'sacred' or something that would make a nice Christmas gift for God himself, I wouldn't call giving up your ground skill points to make a full space spec a 'sacrifice'.
(but then I wouldn't call "an 8% reduction in power across the board for everyone in the game so that relative to any other player your total disadvantage is 0%" much of a "sacrifice" to begin with anyway.)
P.S. I've been pretty 'pro-Cryptic' tonight. Some of the 'full spec' people have raised good points in very constructive posts in this thread and I hope to respond to them (with my support) soon.
I agree that the learning curve is steep, especially for less hard-core MMOers. But scrolling down a window is rather standard procedure. Even a non-smart cell phone can have a scrolling window.
Also, I'm not adverse to a vertical rather than horizontal tree, but the progression needs to be downwards, not upwards. Yes we use the word "tree", but in recalling that steep learning curve, in most Western writing/lreading, we start at the top and work down. That's a more standard flow.
Afterall, we scroll down the page to see the response to the above comment, not up. Most UIs and such work that same way for the same reason. It's what most people do (in Western society, where STO's main market is).
Which is also why it seems hard to comprehend that someone would not think to scroll down...
I think that it is failry clear that after the 300+ posts in this thread, and all the posts in other threads, that the vast majority of players are completely against this forced split in skillpoint spending.
No, that is not clear. Forum posters are a minority of the playerbase, just very vocal. As well, not all these posts in this thread are negative, nor are they by different, unique people, as I myself have posted more than once in this thread, and I don't have a problem with the changes.
Is the new Drive Coil skill whats making it so awesome to go full impulse now???
I put a few points into this skill with a different character, and I notice now when I go to full impulse, my power levels don't change so dramatically. In fact, they stay put minus Weapon Power which only goes down slightly. The "bonus" power, IE the green power above the normal power levels is what seems to get transferred to engines.
Its MUCH better now transitioning from Full Implulse to normal and back again!
I love the change it will bring lots of people who used to spec for ground and space into PVP
I don't want to have to not have any ground speced just so i can play pvp. This should get lots more people playing that did not want to spend time or money re-specing into an all space spec build.
I think this is really great!
I would like to see a little more flexibility in the spending. Maybe a 70/20/10 or 65/25/10 split where the first number is mandatory space, the second is mandatory ground and the third is discretionary. I'd like at least some "buffer" points, I hated getting to my final 3000 points and having to split them 1000/2000 in a ground and space skill I already had at the level I wanted. i couldn't use the 3000 to get one more tick in a tier 5 space skill because 1000 HAD to be spent on ground. I believe a Discretionary pool would fix this.
To me, all that might need to be done to alleviate some of the .. concerns*... of some posters is to adjust the 'wiggle room'. Right now, it's *very* tight.. someone mentioned only 1000 points. That is restrictive.
If it were changed to allow up to 85% of the total points in space and up to 35% of the total points in ground (depending on which way you wanted to spend), I think that would help quite a bit with builds.
Also, the new skill system hasn't even been in place for 48 hours. How about actually testing and seeing how things work over the weekend at least. I know, I know. I might as well be asking for the Moon, because the amount of .. concern*.. runs way too high. Just like when the new space tree came out, there were changes and adjustments made, although I'm certain many people have forgotten that.
*used in place of other more appropriate (to me) terms...
I get where many of the anti-split folks are coming from, and as Borticus said: change is hard. But please bear this in mind:
1) The build that is so "unacceptable" to change is less than a month old anyway. How crucial to your playstyle could it be?
2) If you feel that the 8% nerf is unacceptable because your PVP buddies will walk all over you, remember that they also got the 8% "nerf". The new system will take about a week of testing by the hard-core pvpers before the most attainable uber-builds will be worked out. You may recognize this pattern: It happened at launch (or beta), and again with the last skill revision. We all get the same options, it will work out.
3) It's not a 25% nerf. At worst it's an 8% nerf. As Borticus pointed out, the new costs and point numbers means that the buying power was NOT affected by 25%. Yeah, 8% "nerf" isn't ideal, but this whole whine-fest and rage-quit-fest takes me back to when a certain "other" MMO would adjust Paladin talent trees (or other classes). Everyone would wail and gnash their teeth, and a week later it was business as usual.
Such is the business of MMOs, especially ones made by companies that were sold to a new international corporation and are completely changing their business model. If you are going to quit, wait till the dust settles, and then see how it is. Once the decision is rational and informed and you still want to quit, by all means do so.
I'm am sick of hearing this 8% BS. If the alleged 8% was such an insignificant number, do you think people would STILL be complaining about it to the extent that they are? I think that whoever did that math didn't take into account that not everyone distributes points the same way and some people may be effected more. Essentially, what this 75/25 split does to me is makes me put points in skill boxes that I'm not going to use on the ground. Yes, I do both ground and space, but my ground abilities do not require half of the boxes that is mandated by that split. Only one box is really dedicated to what I really need for ground. The extra armor/shields are nice, but unnecessary since it's never been a problem before.
Also, their "we don't give a damn" attitude is going to be their downfall. You want to know where that gets you? Ask the devs working on Star Wars Galaxies. Might want to change that attitude because if all they do is game development, they won't be around long. In other words, don't make the same mistakes as other MMOs and actually listen to your players because you will not win this battle. SOE is forever scarred because people don't trust them anymore. They will not be able to come out with anything new that has any credibility because of the fiasco with SWG. Don't fall into the same trap.
I would like to see a little more flexibility in the spending. Maybe a 70/20/10 or 65/25/10 split where the first number is mandatory space, the second is mandatory ground and the third is discretionary. I'd like at least some "buffer" points, I hated getting to my final 3000 points and having to split them 1000/2000 in a ground and space skill I already had at the level I wanted. i couldn't use the 3000 to get one more tick in a tier 5 space skill because 1000 HAD to be spent on ground. I believe a Discretionary pool would fix this.
I'm am sick of hearing this 8% BS. If the alleged 8% was such an insignificant number, do you think people would STILL be complaining about it to the extent that they are?
Yes, people would be complaining if it was even a 1% change. Years of WoW has taught me this. Everyone is affected the same way. If they specced differently than others, than they were more/less effective than others in the old system too.
I'm am sick of hearing this 8% BS. If the alleged 8% was such an insignificant number, do you think people would STILL be complaining about it to the extent that they are?
Yes, I do, because they are. Nobody's looking at the fact that skill point values have changed, the total amount of skill points have changed, nor have they *really* compared their builds on Holodeck to Tribble and tested them out because there just hasn't been enough time yet.
Some people just know they're being 'forced' to spend points on ground and that fact is enough to get them riled up. Just look at more than a few of the posts in this thread and you'll see that unless you're completely oblivious. There are posters who have already threatened to ragequit over being 'forced' to put even 1 SP in ground, without 1) testing to see *just* how much it'll effect them and 2) without seeing what changes are incoming after this initial test build.
So, yeah. People are going to complain, because there are people don't like *any* change.
Now that I have tried it, I am in a halfway alright place with it, dont like being forced into ground spending, but I was able to get a similar build to what i have in holo.
Driver coils sucks, for the record, change the description... it does not affect my warp speed in sector space and lying gets you nowhere.
Keep it close to the current incarnation and ill keep paying your bills.
I'm am sick of hearing this 8% BS. If the alleged 8% was such an insignificant number, do you think people would STILL be complaining about it to the extent that they are?
As a response, I will quote Destinii, as she put it rather well:
Also, the new skill system hasn't even been in place for 48 hours. How about actually testing and seeing how things work over the weekend at least. I know, I know. I might as well be asking for the Moon, because the amount of .. concern*.. runs way too high. Just like when the new space tree came out, there were changes and adjustments made, although I'm certain many people have forgotten that.
I think that whoever did that math didn't take into account that not everyone distributes points the same way and some people may be effected more.
I think they did take that into account. Partly because they SAID that they did, and also because I am far more likely to put my faith in a dedicated team of Developers who are professionals at what they do, rather than the reactionary rage-fest of people who haven't even given the new builds a thorough testing yet. (See the above comment about it being less than 48 hours...)
Sheesh, everyone chill, breathe, drink something soothing, spec your toons and play around with the skills. Took me a couple of tries (which with no respec required deleting and re-copying from Holodeck) but I got a rather good build on a couple of my toons.
Comments
This is exactly why we need a skill tree revision. I have one main Captain I primarily use. I have played her for over a year and I have a storyline for her and everything. She's balanced in space and ground as I wish to enjoy and remain competitive in all aspects of the game. After all she's Captain, she leads her away teams and she commands the ship in space. I can't compete in PVP with a balance build and I shouldn't have to create a ground or space focused clone of her.
We have actually talked about doing this. The issue is that we would want to do it as part of a game-wide UI update that would address other problems as well (and hopefully get a bit more LCARS into the style of the game UI.).
Such an update is on the long term schedule, but I don't have details on the exact scope or timeframe yet.
Well, you can start by giving a proper LCARS look to all Fed/Klingon consoles. A simple "texture update" for any current console textures should fix all of them at once. It would make the game world seem more "Trek", and remove the total blueness/redness from the game.
The original trailer for STO showed a battle onboard the Galaxy class bridge, complete with full-colored LCARS displays. We've seen images/videos of the new Defiant interior, again with full-colored LCARS. So it's obviously already in progress, and the idea was there from the start. So why are we stuck with blue LCARS everywhere?
A full-UI makeover (graphically) is the best course of action to improve the appearance of the game. Especially for new players. Certainly you guys have graphics artists that are not involved in working on the mechanics of the game? If not, start hiring some. There is plenty of great talents in the community, as well as in other Star Trek community locations.
If this ability has been changed, please please change it back to 0 seconds. Ground Elite STFs are hard enough already. It will really be a struggle not being able to rely on that instant recharge when you are down to zero health and while an elite tac drone is bearing down on you.
1) The build that is so "unacceptable" to change is less than a month old anyway. How crucial to your playstyle could it be?
2) If you feel that the 8% nerf is unacceptable because your PVP buddies will walk all over you, remember that they also got the 8% "nerf". The new system will take about a week of testing by the hard-core pvpers before the most attainable uber-builds will be worked out. You may recognize this pattern: It happened at launch (or beta), and again with the last skill revision. We all get the same options, it will work out.
3) It's not a 25% nerf. At worst it's an 8% nerf. As Borticus pointed out, the new costs and point numbers means that the buying power was NOT affected by 25%. Yeah, 8% "nerf" isn't ideal, but this whole whine-fest and rage-quit-fest takes me back to when a certain "other" MMO would adjust Paladin talent trees (or other classes). Everyone would wail and gnash their teeth, and a week later it was business as usual.
Such is the business of MMOs, especially ones made by companies that were sold to a new international corporation and are completely changing their business model. If you are going to quit, wait till the dust settles, and then see how it is. Once the decision is rational and informed and you still want to quit, by all means do so.
I could very easily say this is the result of crybabies who want to have everything instead of understanding to be great at something, you have to sacrifice something else. I sacrifice the ability to cut through ground content like swiss cheese in order to have my escort perform at a high level- not in pvp, mind you- but in STFs and other space based content. Instead of understanding a hybrid's sacrifice is they will always be behind a full-spec player in ONE aspect of the game, you complain that its unfair to you (jack-of-all-trades is a master of none.)
And for the record, I never, ever watched anything Star Trek related and thought "Gee, I really want to lead an away team" My trek dreams revolve around commanding starships, not getting my boots dirty. This game has been fantastic in that regard- at least until this revamp (I use that word loosely).
So far I can tell I've lost power in weapons and aux (these things add up big time guys even 1 power can make a big difference over time. Ive gone from 555 dps on torpedoes to 472. My defense has taken the largest hit dropping 4% in my defense bonus which is a rather large deal. I did gain threat control but no bonus to damage resists from it.
These might not seem like big losses guys but they are the difference between winning and loosing battles. I'm going to keep playing with it and maybe I can find a decent way to offset the loss. Will get back to you. One thing I see that sticks out is a sci ship is going to have to take some fairly big hits to spec for those ability's.
I switched the named tiers to Pips due to the spacing issues you mentioned, and I figure running your mouse over it would bring up the full name of that tier (I'm no programer, all my background is in Art and Design).
I put the Ground skills on the left (they should be on the top in the current version IMO) because with the greater amount of space skills, its easy to tell there are going to be MORE skills off to that direction.
I also color coordinated the skills for better separation. I kept everything similar to the current layout as much as possible too, but as you can see its pretty compact.
The text is indeed an issue, my main question is: Do you translate that text directly to other languages, or does it stay the same in every langauge? To be honest, you guys have created a lot of identifyable images now with the game. Everyone who has played it knows what a shield item looks like or a battery, those kinds of things. And the Science consoles now match up almost perfectly to the skills, so you can use images directly from those to match up.
Of course, some things (like Willpower) don't have any corresponding icons, so its not going to be perfect, but I took a little extra time and made an Icon based tree too:
I figure something like a graphical system would work better for multiple langauges. And if you look at a game like SWTOR, the skill tree is VERY cryptic at first (no pun intended) but just dragging your mouse over each icon explains what it does, which you have to do anyway right now with the current STO system even though the skill has a specific name (most of the names are just as obtuse as the icons IMO).
I was also thinking of doing something like having the Space skills go upward, with the ground skills below going downward. I'll have to test that out though, maybe with a different graphical setup completely.
I can also tell you that it is the same on other forums, online conversations, and even JMan seems to think its not a good idea in the latest episode of STOked:
I have never felt the need to be this outspoken with any of the changes that STO has had in the past. As a paying customer since launch, I have had faith in Cryptic's ideas and plans, even when I didn't agree 100%. However, in principle alone, (and there are more reasons than just principle) this forced split is absurd.
Call me a doomsday'er if you want, and up until these proposed changes I never thought I would say this, but this will not end well if it goes live to holo.
I totally agree!!!! I live in Kerrat - SPACE WAR. Please cryptic, give me back my space points!!!!!! I already feel like the current build on Holodeck took away from space cause I can't get my power lvls as high. Please, get rid of this split!!!!
Yeah, I just respeced my tac toon, with the max 9 points in "Squad Command" and Security Escort was reduced to a 41second recharge, not instant.
No one likes seeing smaller damage numbers, ever. But as much as it sucks, everyone in the game is getting the same nerf, so things, technically, balance out.
Can you please explain what you mean by 'proper L-CARS look'? I've heard lots of people say that. I've also read quite a lot about L-CARS design, what the rules of it are, all the panels that have appeared on several versions of Trek. I really don't know what the 'anti-blue' thing is about. the current design is not 100% authentic, but where it deviates I think it does so for good visual design reasons that make the interface immensly 'viewable'. Boring maybe, but providing 'stimulation' is not their job. Their job is to draw as little attention to themselves as possible so that they are not taxing on the eye and mind and let you do what you need to do and get back to the game as soon as possible. It's one of those things that does it's job right when you don't even think about it.
How anyone can claim that they 'didn't know they needed to look for a scroll bar' in 20XX is beyond me. Windows have scroll bars. Just like they have since Bill Gates introduced windows what 20, 30 years ago? Scroll the #TRIBBLE& down people.
Just navigating the UI is difficult enough, let alone trying to figure out the different skill trees (BO's vs. Your character) and all the different skills not to mention three kinds of skill training and what the skills actually do...
Sadly, I know a lot of people who walked away from the game before they figured half of this out.
I agree that the learning curve is steep, especially for less hard-core MMOers. But scrolling down a window is rather standard procedure. Even a non-smart cell phone can have a scrolling window.
Also, I'm not adverse to a vertical rather than horizontal tree, but the progression needs to be downwards, not upwards. Yes we use the word "tree", but in recalling that steep learning curve, in most Western writing/lreading, we start at the top and work down. That's a more standard flow.
Afterall, we scroll down the page to see the response to the above comment, not up. Most UIs and such work that same way for the same reason. It's what most people do (in Western society, where STO's main market is).
Which is also why it seems hard to comprehend that someone would not think to scroll down...
[From Dictionary.com]
sac·ri·fice [sak-ruh-fahys] Show IPA noun, verb, -ficed, -fic·ing.
noun
1. the offering of animal, plant, or human life or of some material possession to a deity, as in propitiation or homage.
2. the person, animal, or thing so offered.
3. the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.
4. the thing so surrendered or devoted.
5. a loss incurred in selling something below its value.
Origin:
122575; (noun) Middle English < Old French < Latin sacrificium, equivalent to sacri- (combining form of sacer holy) + -fic-, combining form of facere to make, do1 + -ium -ium; (v.) Middle English sacrifisen, derivative of the noun
... So unless you consider ground combat in STO 'sacred' or something that would make a nice Christmas gift for God himself, I wouldn't call giving up your ground skill points to make a full space spec a 'sacrifice'.
(but then I wouldn't call "an 8% reduction in power across the board for everyone in the game so that relative to any other player your total disadvantage is 0%" much of a "sacrifice" to begin with anyway.)
P.S. I've been pretty 'pro-Cryptic' tonight. Some of the 'full spec' people have raised good points in very constructive posts in this thread and I hope to respond to them (with my support) soon.
Bless you.
No, that is not clear. Forum posters are a minority of the playerbase, just very vocal. As well, not all these posts in this thread are negative, nor are they by different, unique people, as I myself have posted more than once in this thread, and I don't have a problem with the changes.
Forcing a split on us is going to lose you business, plain and simple, choice part of the mmo way, and taking it away is very VERY bad.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Is the new Drive Coil skill whats making it so awesome to go full impulse now???
I put a few points into this skill with a different character, and I notice now when I go to full impulse, my power levels don't change so dramatically. In fact, they stay put minus Weapon Power which only goes down slightly. The "bonus" power, IE the green power above the normal power levels is what seems to get transferred to engines.
Its MUCH better now transitioning from Full Implulse to normal and back again!
I don't want to have to not have any ground speced just so i can play pvp. This should get lots more people playing that did not want to spend time or money re-specing into an all space spec build.
I think this is really great!
I would like to see a little more flexibility in the spending. Maybe a 70/20/10 or 65/25/10 split where the first number is mandatory space, the second is mandatory ground and the third is discretionary. I'd like at least some "buffer" points, I hated getting to my final 3000 points and having to split them 1000/2000 in a ground and space skill I already had at the level I wanted. i couldn't use the 3000 to get one more tick in a tier 5 space skill because 1000 HAD to be spent on ground. I believe a Discretionary pool would fix this.
@Destinii - Inconceivable!
If it were changed to allow up to 85% of the total points in space and up to 35% of the total points in ground (depending on which way you wanted to spend), I think that would help quite a bit with builds.
Also, the new skill system hasn't even been in place for 48 hours. How about actually testing and seeing how things work over the weekend at least. I know, I know. I might as well be asking for the Moon, because the amount of .. concern*.. runs way too high. Just like when the new space tree came out, there were changes and adjustments made, although I'm certain many people have forgotten that.
*used in place of other more appropriate (to me) terms...
I'm am sick of hearing this 8% BS. If the alleged 8% was such an insignificant number, do you think people would STILL be complaining about it to the extent that they are? I think that whoever did that math didn't take into account that not everyone distributes points the same way and some people may be effected more. Essentially, what this 75/25 split does to me is makes me put points in skill boxes that I'm not going to use on the ground. Yes, I do both ground and space, but my ground abilities do not require half of the boxes that is mandated by that split. Only one box is really dedicated to what I really need for ground. The extra armor/shields are nice, but unnecessary since it's never been a problem before.
Also, their "we don't give a damn" attitude is going to be their downfall. You want to know where that gets you? Ask the devs working on Star Wars Galaxies. Might want to change that attitude because if all they do is game development, they won't be around long. In other words, don't make the same mistakes as other MMOs and actually listen to your players because you will not win this battle. SOE is forever scarred because people don't trust them anymore. They will not be able to come out with anything new that has any credibility because of the fiasco with SWG. Don't fall into the same trap.
Haha!
And GMTA on the 'more wiggle room needed'..
Yes, people would be complaining if it was even a 1% change. Years of WoW has taught me this. Everyone is affected the same way. If they specced differently than others, than they were more/less effective than others in the old system too.
Yes, I do, because they are. Nobody's looking at the fact that skill point values have changed, the total amount of skill points have changed, nor have they *really* compared their builds on Holodeck to Tribble and tested them out because there just hasn't been enough time yet.
Some people just know they're being 'forced' to spend points on ground and that fact is enough to get them riled up. Just look at more than a few of the posts in this thread and you'll see that unless you're completely oblivious. There are posters who have already threatened to ragequit over being 'forced' to put even 1 SP in ground, without 1) testing to see *just* how much it'll effect them and 2) without seeing what changes are incoming after this initial test build.
So, yeah. People are going to complain, because there are people don't like *any* change.
Driver coils sucks, for the record, change the description... it does not affect my warp speed in sector space and lying gets you nowhere.
Keep it close to the current incarnation and ill keep paying your bills.
As a response, I will quote Destinii, as she put it rather well:
I think they did take that into account. Partly because they SAID that they did, and also because I am far more likely to put my faith in a dedicated team of Developers who are professionals at what they do, rather than the reactionary rage-fest of people who haven't even given the new builds a thorough testing yet. (See the above comment about it being less than 48 hours...)
Sheesh, everyone chill, breathe, drink something soothing, spec your toons and play around with the skills. Took me a couple of tries (which with no respec required deleting and re-copying from Holodeck) but I got a rather good build on a couple of my toons.