Have you checked the actual repair rate of a 100% crew on the Defiant and on a Raptor?
Do they really give 3 times as much repair rate?
I don't have a Defiant but I'd surely like to know what those rates are.
On other Klingon and Federation counterparts the result was usually
that the crew numbers were different but the repair rates were really similar.
Have you checked the actual repair rate of a 100% crew on the Defiant and on a Raptor?
Do they really give 3 times as much repair rate?
I don't have a Defiant but I'd surely like to know what those rates are.
On other Klingon and Federation counterparts the result was usually
that the crew numbers were different but the repair rates were really similar.
I'll have to check that out for sure. Regardless, The raptor has at least 2000 more hit points, and more console slots available to it. Which I think is far more valuable.
The Klingon Community always wants what it doesn't have, and doesn't realize what it does have. I'd kill, KILL to have a ship like the Vorcha variant, the BOP, and Marader Cruiser on my fed toons. My fed toons have to make due with sub par cruisers and in most cases, escorts as well.
I think your problem may be that you are not using cannons on an escort. It's the only ship class that can normally run them, so take advantage of this ability for some quick kills. If not, you can try some beam target powers, but that will probably give you at least three beam boff powers, TRIBBLE with your cool downs.
It's not a problem, it was done intentionally.
I've tried cannon builds numerous times and found that I really don't like them. The whole being locked into 45 degrees of firing arc for damage dealing just doesn't appeal to me... especially with a ship as maneuverable as the MVAE is. This thing is built to be an escort killer. I keep the throttle up, keep turning and can do a pretty darn good job of staying out of my target's cannon arc. I sacrifice some DPS to do this, but having 3 DBBs up front she still hits hard.
APO3, BO3, BO2, THY2, TS1, FAW1 and TT1.
On the Science end I switch between 2 BOffs as the situation calls for.
1: PH1, HE2, TSS3
2: HE1, TSS2, SS2
I've pondered running 2 TT1s, but honestly haven't run into a situation where I could see the benefit, as I rely less on having the forward shields facing an enemy than a traditional cannon escort does.
I don't believe the Klingons will get MVAM ships until the Feds get carriers... Sounds like a reasonable trade anyway.
I agree. If the Klingons want a battle cloaking MVAM and an Excelsior equivalent cruiser, it's only fair that the Federation side of the game also see an increase in play options.
But don't expect this point of view to be held by the majority of posters.
I agree. If the Klingons want a battle cloaking MVAM and an Excelsior equivalent cruiser, it's only fair that the Federation side of the game also see an increase in play options.
But don't expect this point of view to be held by the majority of posters.
...and the next who did not read the OP of the thread.
NOONE IN THIS THREAD ASKED FOR AN MVAM BOP!!!:mad:
I've already got a Tac Team, Already got two beam overloads, got APO, got torp high yield and spread. Don't use cannons so no need for rapid fire or scatter volley. Really isn't much else there to do.
Ens BOffs are just about useless in T5 ships... as there are only 2 or 3 Ens level powers in each branch (tac/sci/eng) worth using... and that's only if they aren't on shared cooldown with other powers.
I know you respond faster than I edit. I also base my assessment on facts and experience. I don't know it all, but I do know that the Raptor needs work.
I know you respond faster than I edit. I also base my assessment on facts and experience. I don't know it all, but I do know that the Raptor needs work.
If the raptor needs work, then fed cruisers and defiant do to at least.
its Shield HP is only 700 more (with covariant shields). While the raptor gets 3000 more hull, and a crew that is 300% larger to repair the hull.. I wouldn't say thats a fair tradeoff
Lol, crew does not matter at all. Repair rate is so low during combat that it's pointless to bother keeping crew high. Battle hull heals are done mainly through boff powers, not crew numbers.
Plus, the shield comparison is only the base rate. It increases with the proper arrays and consoles. I belleve the difference between my defiants & raptor with nearly identical builds are almost 1500.
The only real advantage the raptor has over the defiant is the extra console, and since the defiant can now pop it's cloak console in a science console space now, that advantage is basically one more science console for the raptor, which isn't worth much for an escort (minus all the stupid, annoying P2W consoles).
The turn rate advantage for the defiant is killer. It is incredibly hard for my raptor to keep its cannons on defiants & MVAMs while dueling them. Meanwhile, when I'm in my defiants, it is way easier to keep raptors in front of my cannons than bops.
DV, in facing beam-scorts, besides them having beam boff power cool down issues, I've found them more annoying then deadly. The most annoying part is if they decide to exploit the z-axis problem by spiraling upwards out of my cannon range. It then becomes hard to finish them off, while they tickle me with beam damage, while waiting for one of their teammates to come by to help them. Not saying you do that of course (and you using DBBs instead of arrays makes that very unlikely).
Regardless, you sacrifice damage potential & boff power balance relying on beams. You have a high turn rate so that you can keep opponents in your cannon range.
...and the next who did not read the OP of the thread.
NOONE IN THIS THREAD ASKED FOR AN MVAM BOP!!!:mad:
I'm not sure how you dramatically misread the original post but they are asking for a battle cloaking escort with the exact same console and BOFF layout as the MVAM. So yes, they are asking for an MVAM BOP.
Oh, wait, unless you think the concern is that people want a BOP that breaks into three different pieces and battlecloaks? No, I don't think anyone's been accused of wanting that.
But wanting a ship with the strengths unique to the Federation is enough for me to say, only if the Federation gets something new in return.
Now this is a waste of time. We're not discussing that proposal and, were it not for you bringing it up when you could have been attempting to make a valid point instead, this stupid idea would have stayed buried in the forum.
Here, let me repost the original proposal and see if you can keep your criticisms and discussion on track.
I'm not sure how you dramatically misread the original post but they are asking for a battle cloaking escort with the exact same console and BOFF layout as the MVAM. So yes, they are asking for an MVAM BOP.
Oh, wait, unless you think the concern is that people want a BOP that breaks into three different pieces and battlecloaks? No, I don't think anyone's been accused of wanting that.
Yes, because the ability is called MVAM (Multi Vector Assault Mode), the ship is called the MVAE
(Multi Vector Assault Escort) so yes that's what you accused the OP of.
But wanting a ship with the strengths unique to the Federation is enough for me to say, only if the Federation gets something new in return.
That at least is a valid position, however given the Federation has a hughe list of upcoming ships, the question is of course whether those will be counted to those "in return" ships, or whether it will be on top of that.
Now this is a waste of time. We're not discussing that proposal and, were it not for you bringing it up when you could have been attempting to make a valid point instead, this stupid idea would have stayed buried in the forum.
Here, let me repost the original proposal and see if you can keep your criticisms and discussion on track.
Considering you accused someone of wanting a ship with multiple special abilites in one ship, which noone did, I thought an equally pointless proposal should balance that out.
A sci-themed raptor would be interesting - with no battle cloak, just regular cloak. That would be important. No multi-vector ability, and the boff layout of the AE - NOT THE MVAM (i.e., no LtC sci, just a Lt & Ensign, sacrificing the ensign tac). Turn rate 17 (equivalent to the defiant) would be great, making it more effective than the raptor and its inability to keep opponents in front of its cannons.
They never fixed the raptor's turning axis like they said they would, did they? Ugh. Otherwise, just fixing that instead of giving it a turn rate of 17 instead of 15 would be fine, maybe.
The day the Klinks get MVAM is the day the Feds get Carriers.
Which is to say... never?
I've heard grumblings from Klink players about allowing a Carrier class with the Feddies, saying that it's uniquely Klingon and should stay that way. Well, the same logic can apply to MVAM.
Geezus man, when MT is referring to the MVAM in this thread, it has nothing to do with the multi-vector console ability, but mainly the boff layout, as well as the battle cloak & possibly the console layout. How is a sci-oriented escort uniquely fed? -Especially considering how important the sci powers are in this game.
This is an old idea of mine and some of you will probably roll your eyes and go "not him again, not this again!" but I designed those originally way before the Klingons got the first "support ship" and also way before the MVAE:
The one I linked is actually an updated version of that original proposal but again outdated because the ablites are not yet included as consoles but as fixed abilites and the ships have therefore only 8 console slots.
Please mentally add one engineering console to the Raptor retrofit and one tac console to the Norgh.
In addition the Norgh retrofit has only +10 power altogether, something that would need to updated as well, probably +10 to aux and +10 to engines.
And yes I'm well aware only a handful of people linked this idea back then, but I'm stubborn and annoying.
The day the Klinks get MVAM is the day the Feds get Carriers.
Which is to say... never?
I've heard grumblings from Klink players about allowing a Carrier class with the Feddies, saying that it's uniquely Klingon and should stay that way. Well, the same logic can apply to MVAM.
Not that I disagree, but someone put firth that the soft canon supports a Klingon multi-vectored vessels.
THough we do not need one and such a nesty should remain uniquelly fed in my opinion.
Now a T5 BoP and Raptor would be nice though, as the B'rel is fun but a speciality vessel imo.
Not that I disagree, but someone put firth that the soft canon supports a Klingon multi-vectored vessels.
Umm...ummm...which one?
The only thing I remember is that the Vor'cha can supposedly disconnect its forward section to be used as a lifeboat, same goes for the Chancellor class. Anything beyond that would be new to me.
Umm...ummm...which one?
The only thing I remember is that the Vor'cha can supposedly disconnect its forward section to be used as a lifeboat, same goes for the Chancellor class. Anything beyond that would be new to me.
Plus in Starfleet Battles, the D-7 (and other Klingon ships) could disconnect its boom from the aft of ship in cases of slave revolts (in the aft of the ship).
Umm...ummm...which one?
The only thing I remember is that the Vor'cha can supposedly disconnect its forward section to be used as a lifeboat, same goes for the Chancellor class. Anything beyond that would be new to me.
When the MVAM class ship first came out someone posted info in a ***** thread that supported a KDF version via soft canon. Be that book, game or whatever I could not say.
I just remember it being put forth as thier arguement to show that the KDF had one too.
frankly I say let the feds keep it and just design a T5 BoP/Raptor for us.
The Sheer amount of feds not actually reading the post, or failing to understand that the OP wants the MVAM AE BO loadout in a new BOP VARIANT, NOT the actual MVAM ability....is STAGGERING....does no one read anymore?
I love how anytime you say to someone who plays exclusively fed that klinks need some new ships, they're responses are always, " nah nah u got carriers and insta win button bops with scary battle cloak and uni consoles! your OP!"
Fly a klink, and you'll understand why BoPs are a bit underpowered when compared to ships like the MVAM and the raptors turn rate to me always results in a loss to a defiant when squared off with an equally skilled player, it needs something, I'd settle for better turn rate. BoPs pay HEAVILY for those abilities, which by the way are as much of a blessing as they are a curse...try battlecloaking when someone has just launched a whole slew of torpedoes at you, or fly thru a tachyeon Detection Grid, Or get hit with a fed torpedo SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO KILL CLOAKED SHIPS! I mean, the counters to cloaked ships fed side are incrediable, and the risks of battle cloaking equally high. Takes skill to make those ships work, and asking to be on par with the rest of the game is not asking too much.
I would Kill for a new T5 BoP or raptor with a unique 5 BO fixed Bo stations, with on par hull and shields.
and to the person saying that feds have worse cruisers vs the klinks.....:eek: really? you want a vorcha refit? fly a sovereign, IDENTICAL LOADOUT, cept the vorcha has cloak, big woop when your a lumbering cruiser...and Excelsior anyone? theres no equivalent kdf side...you like the marauder? fly a star cruiser... I mean...are we playing the same game here?
For the record I have 3 feds as well as 3 klinks, and its far easier to roflstomp on my feds ships..
Bops are deadly in numbers, the more BoPs in a combat situation the better it seems they are in said combat. Only a very few amount of players have the skill to make them deadly in a solo PvP situation and that deadliness drops rapidly the more targets in the enviroment as the BoP can not take sustained attention in combat.
Sure that one solo experienced Player can decloak and most likely pop thier target but those other targets in said group will burn it down quickly if the BoP doesn't use hit-n-run tactics to make the kill and leave.
The pic reminds me of our dear departed homicido-puddy-tat. My wife named her toon's caitian tac boff "Persephone" in her honor.
It also looks like my two year old, "black-on black" tabby, Zel'. My sci-toon is a Caitian named (and as close to in appearance as I could) in his honor.
WoW! Is she a Maine Coon cat to make such kills? Or just a ferociuos kitty?
If she lives still, treat her with honor. She deserves it.
She was just plain ferocious. I don't think she ever weighed more than 8# her entire life.
Alas, she died five years ago. She disappeared around Labor Day, and I figured she had been wounded in a fight and then crawled off to recuperate. But then her remains were found in a neighbor's flower bed. She had decomposed in the summer heat, but her skin and bones were arranged as if she had been curled up and simply died in her sleep. She hadn't been predated on; everything was still in place. It was as if she was such a bad*** that the neighborhood dogs and wildlife were still afraid to mess with her even after death.
Her ashes occupy a place of honor on a high bookshelf, looking down upon all who pass by.
Comments
Do they really give 3 times as much repair rate?
I don't have a Defiant but I'd surely like to know what those rates are.
On other Klingon and Federation counterparts the result was usually
that the crew numbers were different but the repair rates were really similar.
I'll have to check that out for sure. Regardless, The raptor has at least 2000 more hit points, and more console slots available to it. Which I think is far more valuable.
The Klingon Community always wants what it doesn't have, and doesn't realize what it does have. I'd kill, KILL to have a ship like the Vorcha variant, the BOP, and Marader Cruiser on my fed toons. My fed toons have to make due with sub par cruisers and in most cases, escorts as well.
It's not a problem, it was done intentionally.
I've tried cannon builds numerous times and found that I really don't like them. The whole being locked into 45 degrees of firing arc for damage dealing just doesn't appeal to me... especially with a ship as maneuverable as the MVAE is. This thing is built to be an escort killer. I keep the throttle up, keep turning and can do a pretty darn good job of staying out of my target's cannon arc. I sacrifice some DPS to do this, but having 3 DBBs up front she still hits hard.
APO3, BO3, BO2, THY2, TS1, FAW1 and TT1.
On the Science end I switch between 2 BOffs as the situation calls for.
1: PH1, HE2, TSS3
2: HE1, TSS2, SS2
I've pondered running 2 TT1s, but honestly haven't run into a situation where I could see the benefit, as I rely less on having the forward shields facing an enemy than a traditional cannon escort does.
I agree. If the Klingons want a battle cloaking MVAM and an Excelsior equivalent cruiser, it's only fair that the Federation side of the game also see an increase in play options.
But don't expect this point of view to be held by the majority of posters.
...and the next who did not read the OP of the thread.
NOONE IN THIS THREAD ASKED FOR AN MVAM BOP!!!:mad:
Oh and let's not forget a certain Fed proposal:
A Federation battleship with all commander slots (probably means 5), 12 consoles (4 each type) and enoguh shields to tank 7-8 carriers at the same time.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3183566&postcount=8
Use more attack patterns.
No, the Defiant is superior in a number of ways. Also, never discount the turn rate.
How do you figure? I'm guessing you don't know the facts, and facts can't be disputed... so thats makes your statement ridculous
If the raptor needs work, then fed cruisers and defiant do to at least.
Plus, the shield comparison is only the base rate. It increases with the proper arrays and consoles. I belleve the difference between my defiants & raptor with nearly identical builds are almost 1500.
The only real advantage the raptor has over the defiant is the extra console, and since the defiant can now pop it's cloak console in a science console space now, that advantage is basically one more science console for the raptor, which isn't worth much for an escort (minus all the stupid, annoying P2W consoles).
The turn rate advantage for the defiant is killer. It is incredibly hard for my raptor to keep its cannons on defiants & MVAMs while dueling them. Meanwhile, when I'm in my defiants, it is way easier to keep raptors in front of my cannons than bops.
DV, in facing beam-scorts, besides them having beam boff power cool down issues, I've found them more annoying then deadly. The most annoying part is if they decide to exploit the z-axis problem by spiraling upwards out of my cannon range. It then becomes hard to finish them off, while they tickle me with beam damage, while waiting for one of their teammates to come by to help them. Not saying you do that of course (and you using DBBs instead of arrays makes that very unlikely).
Regardless, you sacrifice damage potential & boff power balance relying on beams. You have a high turn rate so that you can keep opponents in your cannon range.
Totally. It's best to have two boff powers for each of your two weapon types, two team powers, and two attack patterns.
I disagree.
The Defiant is the most flown escort becuase it is well designed and very functional, lotsa punch and turnrate.
I'm not sure how you dramatically misread the original post but they are asking for a battle cloaking escort with the exact same console and BOFF layout as the MVAM. So yes, they are asking for an MVAM BOP.
Oh, wait, unless you think the concern is that people want a BOP that breaks into three different pieces and battlecloaks? No, I don't think anyone's been accused of wanting that.
But wanting a ship with the strengths unique to the Federation is enough for me to say, only if the Federation gets something new in return.
Now this is a waste of time. We're not discussing that proposal and, were it not for you bringing it up when you could have been attempting to make a valid point instead, this stupid idea would have stayed buried in the forum.
Here, let me repost the original proposal and see if you can keep your criticisms and discussion on track.
Yes, because the ability is called MVAM (Multi Vector Assault Mode), the ship is called the MVAE
(Multi Vector Assault Escort) so yes that's what you accused the OP of.
That at least is a valid position, however given the Federation has a hughe list of upcoming ships, the question is of course whether those will be counted to those "in return" ships, or whether it will be on top of that.
Considering you accused someone of wanting a ship with multiple special abilites in one ship, which noone did, I thought an equally pointless proposal should balance that out.
Hull: 33,300
Shields: 4,146
Fore weapon arrays:4
Rear weapon arrays:3
Crew: 200
Consoles: 4 3 2
Turn: 15
Impulse:0.20
Intertia: 60
Tactical Escort Retrofit
Hull: 30,000
shields:4,702
Fore weapons: 4
Rear weapons: 3
Crew: 50
Consoles: 4 3 2
Turn: 17
Impulse: 0.20
Those poor poor feds...... /sarcasm off
(Fed shield minus Kling shield) * 4
They never fixed the raptor's turning axis like they said they would, did they? Ugh. Otherwise, just fixing that instead of giving it a turn rate of 17 instead of 15 would be fine, maybe.
Which is to say... never?
I've heard grumblings from Klink players about allowing a Carrier class with the Feddies, saying that it's uniquely Klingon and should stay that way. Well, the same logic can apply to MVAM.
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3411498&postcount=117
The one I linked is actually an updated version of that original proposal but again outdated because the ablites are not yet included as consoles but as fixed abilites and the ships have therefore only 8 console slots.
Please mentally add one engineering console to the Raptor retrofit and one tac console to the Norgh.
In addition the Norgh retrofit has only +10 power altogether, something that would need to updated as well, probably +10 to aux and +10 to engines.
And yes I'm well aware only a handful of people linked this idea back then, but I'm stubborn and annoying.
Not that I disagree, but someone put firth that the soft canon supports a Klingon multi-vectored vessels.
THough we do not need one and such a nesty should remain uniquelly fed in my opinion.
Now a T5 BoP and Raptor would be nice though, as the B'rel is fun but a speciality vessel imo.
Umm...ummm...which one?
The only thing I remember is that the Vor'cha can supposedly disconnect its forward section to be used as a lifeboat, same goes for the Chancellor class. Anything beyond that would be new to me.
Plus in Starfleet Battles, the D-7 (and other Klingon ships) could disconnect its boom from the aft of ship in cases of slave revolts (in the aft of the ship).
When the MVAM class ship first came out someone posted info in a ***** thread that supported a KDF version via soft canon. Be that book, game or whatever I could not say.
I just remember it being put forth as thier arguement to show that the KDF had one too.
frankly I say let the feds keep it and just design a T5 BoP/Raptor for us.
The pic reminds me of our dear departed homicido-puddy-tat. My wife named her toon's caitian tac boff "Persephone" in her honor.
I love how anytime you say to someone who plays exclusively fed that klinks need some new ships, they're responses are always, " nah nah u got carriers and insta win button bops with scary battle cloak and uni consoles! your OP!"
Fly a klink, and you'll understand why BoPs are a bit underpowered when compared to ships like the MVAM and the raptors turn rate to me always results in a loss to a defiant when squared off with an equally skilled player, it needs something, I'd settle for better turn rate. BoPs pay HEAVILY for those abilities, which by the way are as much of a blessing as they are a curse...try battlecloaking when someone has just launched a whole slew of torpedoes at you, or fly thru a tachyeon Detection Grid, Or get hit with a fed torpedo SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO KILL CLOAKED SHIPS! I mean, the counters to cloaked ships fed side are incrediable, and the risks of battle cloaking equally high. Takes skill to make those ships work, and asking to be on par with the rest of the game is not asking too much.
I would Kill for a new T5 BoP or raptor with a unique 5 BO fixed Bo stations, with on par hull and shields.
and to the person saying that feds have worse cruisers vs the klinks.....:eek: really? you want a vorcha refit? fly a sovereign, IDENTICAL LOADOUT, cept the vorcha has cloak, big woop when your a lumbering cruiser...and Excelsior anyone? theres no equivalent kdf side...you like the marauder? fly a star cruiser... I mean...are we playing the same game here?
For the record I have 3 feds as well as 3 klinks, and its far easier to roflstomp on my feds ships..
Rant over.
Keep that caitian away from pomegranites or you may lose her for six months out the year.
A honest rant that rings very true.
Bops are deadly in numbers, the more BoPs in a combat situation the better it seems they are in said combat. Only a very few amount of players have the skill to make them deadly in a solo PvP situation and that deadliness drops rapidly the more targets in the enviroment as the BoP can not take sustained attention in combat.
Sure that one solo experienced Player can decloak and most likely pop thier target but those other targets in said group will burn it down quickly if the BoP doesn't use hit-n-run tactics to make the kill and leave.
It also looks like my two year old, "black-on black" tabby, Zel'. My sci-toon is a Caitian named (and as close to in appearance as I could) in his honor.
You, sir, are a warrior-poet, and I like that.
Persephone was still bringing us *rabbits* at age 14. She was a hella predator for a housecat.
WoW! Is she a Maine Coon cat to make such kills? Or just a ferociuos kitty?
If she lives still, treat her with honor. She deserves it.
She was just plain ferocious. I don't think she ever weighed more than 8# her entire life.
Alas, she died five years ago. She disappeared around Labor Day, and I figured she had been wounded in a fight and then crawled off to recuperate. But then her remains were found in a neighbor's flower bed. She had decomposed in the summer heat, but her skin and bones were arranged as if she had been curled up and simply died in her sleep. She hadn't been predated on; everything was still in place. It was as if she was such a bad*** that the neighborhood dogs and wildlife were still afraid to mess with her even after death.
Her ashes occupy a place of honor on a high bookshelf, looking down upon all who pass by.