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Klingons are the good guys
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Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
I just got through rereading the time-line and if I understand it correctly the Klingons are actually the good guys in this game. The galactic conflict centers around the Klingons discovering the Undine have infiltrated high positions in the various governments of the galaxy and their actions to remove them. They discover the Gorn have been infiltrated and plan an invasion to remove the Undine influence. They ask the Federation to help them in this endeavor reminding the UFP of the conditions of the Khitomer Accords. The Feds refuse calling the Klingons rash. Suspecting the UFP itself maybe tainted by Undine influence the Klingons withdraw from the KA and elicit help from the Orions to invade the Gorn.
The Gorn are defeated and the Undine are removed but the Klingons don't subjugate the Gorn but instead give control of their government back to them. Proving that there is more to the Klingons than the barbarians they are perceived as. The Klingons are not waging a war of conquest but a war to remove the vile Undine and save this part of the galaxy from their devious influence.
The war with the UFP is being fought for the same reason the Gorn War was fought, to remove the Undine. If the Klingons win then the Undine are defeated and I see the Klingons treating the UFP similar to the way they treated the Gorn.
So my question is if we're the good guys why is STO still making us wear the black hat? We are still treated and refferred to as the bad guys. As the good guys we should be getting equal attention from STO that Star Fleet receives.
The Gorn are defeated and the Undine are removed but the Klingons don't subjugate the Gorn but instead give control of their government back to them. Proving that there is more to the Klingons than the barbarians they are perceived as. The Klingons are not waging a war of conquest but a war to remove the vile Undine and save this part of the galaxy from their devious influence.
The war with the UFP is being fought for the same reason the Gorn War was fought, to remove the Undine. If the Klingons win then the Undine are defeated and I see the Klingons treating the UFP similar to the way they treated the Gorn.
So my question is if we're the good guys why is STO still making us wear the black hat? We are still treated and refferred to as the bad guys. As the good guys we should be getting equal attention from STO that Star Fleet receives.
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Federation = humans (which is a terracentrism perpetuated in the shows beyond reason) = the good guys.
Not being Federation automatically makes you the bad guy no matter what you do.
Humans Only Club.
A joke that has more truth than they can even admit to themselves.
Im not deluding myself in any way, they will extend respect to the UFP for the same reasons they did the Gorn. The UFP and Star Fleet have for years went toe to toe with the Empire and have habitually came out on top of these engagements. I'd say that was a suffiecient show of strength. The Gorn on the other hand, as far as I can tell by reading through canon material have never fought an all War with any race until the Klingons invaded, this maybe why they were overcome so easily. Actually I just got through reading the hsitory of Minamoto Yoritomo, Japan's 1st warrior ruler. In it Minamoto showed compassion many times to his foes. So if you're gonna pick a human race to compare the Klingons to pick the Mongols who also had a strict honor code. At least the Mongols conquered most of the known world, Japan and the samuria never truly battled a foreign power other than each other. And I dont count the 2 times Kublai Khan tried to invade Japan and typhoons sunk the Mongol ships, butchering half drowned troops isn't a battle. The Japanese called these typhoons kamikaze, the divine wind, because it saved their backsides. If Japan would've been landlocked with China they would have been vassals to the Mongol Emperor.
At this point I would say there arent any bad or good guys. Except the Undine, Borg, Iconians, Devidians, Breen and Feklhr of course.
The Federation sees itself as the good Samaritan yet seems to attempt to enforce its viewpoint on everyone else. Usually because they claim to have the moral high ground. The truth is the Federation follows the doctrine of "might makes right" though they claim to respect other races and their prime directive tells them not to intervene in internal matters. They still meddle as soon as they can think of an excuse. As for being non-violent and non-aggressive, this might once have been true, but the last decades of history and the multitude of wars have left the Federation jaded and far more militarized in its procedures than it used to be.
The Klingons claim to be on a crusade to restore the Empire to former glory and rid the world of Undine infiltration. While this all sounds fine the bottom line is the Klingons are using the age old excuse of being saviors to cover up a greed for territorial expansion. This is very obvious in their thrusts towards Romulan and Federation space. They are using this excuse to satisfy political hunger. The bottom line is they are a warlike race and their code of honor seems to be somewhat flexible depending on individual captains and situations. Their concept of honor can be used as much as an excuse as for enforcing personal conduct and loyalties.
As for Romulans and Cardassians they are both politically scheming militaristic and utilitarian with partially nihilistic attitudes. To put it bluntly, if they see you as an enemy they will be willing to sacrifice half of everything just to have a chance of getting at you. And where the Romulans scheme, the Cardassians plot. The difference is the Romulans are even more dastardly and convoluted in their scheming while Cardassians are somewhat more direct.
Actually, I would say the Klingons usually come out on top, unless Sisco, Picard or Kirk are involved.
The Federation was originally saved from the Klingons by the mysterious Organians and the Organian treaty. Whenever there have been large scale conflict and not single incidents the Empire has seemed to hold the upper hand. Good excamples are the alternate universe where Tasha Yar hadn't died and the Ambassador class Enterprise hadn't been destroyed. The Klingon Empire was winning the war and by Picard's assesment the Federation could only last a couple of more weeks or months at most.
Or the short war between the Klingons and Federation before the Dominion war, which weren't in an alternate time line. While Deep Space 9 was held and the Klingons withdrew from that engagment, most of the time they speak of the conflict and reports of the war, systems are lost and things are going less than good.
In Voyager, when we look back to the time of Captain Hikaru Zulu and the Excelsior, it certainly seems a K'tinga is a good match for it. The K'tinga that attacks the Voyager easily gets the Voyager's shields down below 50% before fire is returned, and that is despite it being more than a hundred years older.
Not to argue the point. You are Right. The Klingons do respect the Federation for their strengths. They are worthy advesaries. But the Federation doesn't usually come out on top.
This is the best and most accurate description of the various factions goals that I have read so far. You could add though the average Klingon and UFP citizen more than likely believe in the purity of these goals, it is the leaders who are using them as an excuse. And you could say the average Romulan and Cardassian are not involved with the plots their governments plan but are instead pawns of them.
You are riight in the single engagements the Klingons tend to take a thumping if Kirk, Picard, or Sisco are at the helm. And you are correct that the Klingons do win the larger scale engagements. I stand corrected, thanks for taking the time to reply so I could learn this.
You are right.
It is the political leaders that pull the strings. There certainly do exist truly honorable warriors in the Empire and I am sure the Federation still got its fair share of visionaries and old-school Federation captains as well. The current state of the galaxy must be blamed on the leaders of the various factions. If not all the blame, then 80% of it.
This...
It has alwways been that way...
Gorkon's daughter said it best...
Inalienable, Human rights....even the very name is racist
A true and accurate description of the factions and how they seem motivated.
Sadly though, I still feel that in STO the plot-toughness that Sisko, Picard and Kirk displayed is the norm that the Devs are giving the feds ingame to give the sense of being the Hero to the player and the KDF suffers when said player feels they are not tough enough, only to complain and asked for a nerfing/fix, etc.
We as Klingon fans have not gotten that which was well represented in the Genre, the toughness and lethality that Klingons are known for as a species.
The federation is corrupted and there resources and loyalties are spread thin.
The only thing I would have done differently if I ran the KDF was attack the federation. It didn't make sence to NOT finish the romulans first. They are weak.
I agree with this assesment. In many ways, the Federation went quickly down hill from the glory days of the early TNG. In the mid to late DS9, the Federation fell hard from its loft position as the idealised future utopia. After fighting in so many previous conflicts, the Dominion alone is NOT the cause of humanity becoming so jaded. George Santayanna said it best, "Those who foregt their history are condemned to repeat it." In many ways the Federation in the 25th century has become more like Rome during the time of Marcus Tullious Cicero. Sad that the Federation is more like Rome than the Romulans have ever been.
The Federation has ended poverty and class establishment and the from the Federation and Klingon viewpoint they are bad because they want to assimilate and all of us.
First time I've ever seen someone who totally agrees with me on this. In the shows, I find that Humanity is essentially the most enlightened species with all the right package of awesome qualities. Sure, they're not as smart as the Vulcans, nor as strong, as a whole... but their heart, creative spirit, and intuition blow the Vulcans out of the water. The same comparison with any other race is usually thrown in your face throughout the series, and it always seems the mantra is 'we're human, we're awesome aren't we?'.
At any regard, in response to the OP I think one should point out that the Klingons motives are probably dualistic. They ARE collecting tribute. It IS their Empire. They ARE getting to go out and wage war again, which is what they want to be doing. At least they have a 'reasonable' excuse now. I think its a mix just like in real life... at least if they do the story well. I sense, by how things are hinted, that J'mpok is a mega jerk, but using the Undine as a pretense.
Yes Roach! I still want to be able to put that Ferengi Worm in the infirmary at best (on Drozana). It still amazes me that you can't outright punch him for his impudence. That guy crosses the line with an IMPERIAL klingon in a way that likely would get him stabbed. The interaction with McCoy is also a little oddball as well.
I agree. I too would like to see a " threaten and intimidation " approach added to the choices at Drozana when dealing with him. Later they could add a "Guile and Threaten " option for the Romulans.
Actually we Klingons like McCoy very much. He drinks alot, enjoys life and is opinionated, not to mention his Singular Wit.
You seem to forget (or are just not aware) that Gene Rodenberry wanted the Next Generation era to represent an Idealized future where humanity has overcome it self-destructive and baser(animalistic) tendencies. Was his idea naive? Maybe, but at least he was being optimistic in looking towards the future while his conteporary authors and producers were more pessimistic when they were putting together their bleak and jaded dystopia future science fiction.
a TANGENT: This line (red) is not intirely correct. Before the invention of teh Cotton Gin Slavery was on the verge of being dropped as a production resource in the South as it was still not cost effective or efficent to have slave labor to process raw cotton from the field to the consumer.
If the Cotton Gin had never been created many historians believe slavery in the USA would have disapeered.
/ end tangent.
I don't think he meant good in a economic sense, but good in a cultural and social sense.
"But let me not be understood as admitting, even by implication, that the existing relations between the two races in the slaveholding States is an evil:far otherwise; I hold it to be a good, as it has thus far proved itself to be to both, and will continue to prove so if not disturbed by the fell spirit of abolition. I appeal to facts. Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually."
-John C. Calhoun
Oh , do not get me wrong this little piece of wierd history (the invention of the cotten gin) I only offer as a piece of trivia and nothing more.
I personally do not find any favor with slavery as it is a self-defeating concept and in truth no man should ever own another ( though most of us be Wage-slave in society).
How different history may have been if ol'Eli had been slow in his invention process.
As to Calhoun's quote, I have read other literature on a similiar line of thought. One book in fact written by G.W. Carver.
Still best be an alert owner who wish put a collar on me. I fully beleave tis better to die on one's feet than live in forced servitude to another.
I like this idea! the option to have a brawl in a bar would be great for Klingons, I was just at Windycon where the Klingon Christmas Carol folks and my ship redid a partyroom into a Klingon bar of sorts, I even had a custom Klingon cup made as a prop for this!, The one thing I mention after was that one thing was missing, Some romulan, vulcan or a human ear hanging on the wall by the bar! (prosthetic of course) or even a plastic skull! I read in a star trek novel how in this one bar people that lost fights in this one bar got to leave behind decorations!!
Marok
XO IKV Emperor's Hand
I don't think I was ever in danger of getting you wrong on this subject.
It just felt you'd misunderstood mondo80's "Until the civil war many thought slavery was good" because you only applied it to "economically viable" so to speak.:)
No, just had that wierd peace of history flash in my brain pan and shared it. I did find it a good example of how things can change or be changed from simple events.
Sure. Its all fun and games until they change the saftey word to fluggaenkdechioebolsen. After that things go downhill.
or whistling as a "safeword" for choking.
Anyway at least in case of the Orions we know they have themselves sold (please note the odd sentence structure) so they can control those poor fools who buy them.
At least it was this way in TOS and earlier.
It would appear this was no longer the case in the later shows, at least there was no mention of Orion slaves in the other shows while the Syndicate is mentioned.
So perhaps slaves are only an issue on worlds beyond the Federation's reach...