Thats right; I said it. I actually LIKE the new changes. Which ones? ALL of them. Buying high end gear with dillithium, being able to convert dillithium to CP to get C-store items, and now some crafting tiers requiring dillithium. Why in the world would I like those things?
Simple: none of them are actually needed to play the game. I've heard stories of people geting to VA in their T2 ships, so you obviouslly dont NEED a VA ship. The same goes for purple gear. Is it nice? Sure, but its to be honest its BARELY better than blue. As far as crafting goes, some people seem to think that everything you craft will now require dillithium, but that is incorrect. It is only every OTHER tier that will, and as previously explained there really isnt much of a difference in the stats of one tier to the next.
And people talk about "grinding", but get real; you ALREADY have to grind to get purple gear. You ALREADY have to grind to get enough emblems to get C-store ships. You ALREADY have to grind to get the high end anomalies you need to craft the high end gear. The new system isnt turning the game into a grind because its ALREADY a grind to get those things.
The new changes are simply bringing uniformity to the grind by having a common element needed: dillithium. But the fact remains, and I repeat this is actually a FACT: no one "needs" any of the things that require dillithium to play the game or get to max level. Wanting and needing are very different things, and if Cryptic can make you really WANT something then they have dont their job as a business.
I agree and disagree.
In theory, what Cryptic are trying to do on Tribble is good but the execution leaves something to be desired. Lets look at the crafting changes, it is a great idea to stop people being able to mass produce high end gear but the way they've done it is just about the laziest (or greediest) way to do it. Instead of making a complex and involving crafting system where the players need each other to make the best stuff, they've just slapped on a time gate using Dilithium.
Liek you though, I do like the uniformity to the grind and that you can trade Dilithium for CP (and you're spot on, we do need to grind now for the best stuff). However at present the refining cap and the prices of ships and gear means you're going to gather up ore and spend days or weeks logging on for 30 seconds to refine and then log out, or you carry on playing and struggle on without the ship or gear you're supposed to be using, which brings me on to the next point.
You may have heard stories of people getting to VA in a T2 ship, but have you done it yourself? For those that have, good for them but it certainly isn't the norm and will the shiny new players this transition is supposed to attract be able to do this? Not likely I'd say. Some limit needs to be in place for silvers to make a subscription have any value, but reducing either your desire or ability to keep playing is a bloody stupid way to do it. We can debate back and forth about the VA ship so I'll just say I think it's important for a company, especially if they want my money, to actually keep the promises they make, in this case that subscriptions would not lose anything.
I would agree that there is a valid point in the OP. Game play doesn't require the best gear and the highest tech in the game. But did we consider that is the problem?
Shouldn't we need that tech to continue leveling to keep from hitting a glass ceilling?
As to the remainder of the OP and most of the subsequent post that state if you don't need it, then you are okay without it, I submit: I am okay with you being without it. Just don't agree to limit my game play to your standards. I have purple gear across the board on all my toons because that is something that I enjoy doing through the crafting system; that is my casual play. It really has nothing to do with you leveling in a shuttle or whatever else you do.
What I really don't like is Cryptic making a change to that will put the crafting system squarely into the economic system of the game. Outside of purchasing materials or selling the items that you craft, that should be the extent of the interaction of the two systems, period. If they go through with this, it will be the only MMO that I can think of doing it.
So I have to ask, do you support this becuase you want the dilithium to be C-point based making people buy it with real cash or do you support this becuase it will extend the time other spend collecting it?
As far as crafting goes, some people seem to think that everything you craft will now require dillithium, but that is incorrect. It is only every OTHER tier that will, and as previously explained there really isnt much of a difference in the stats of one tier to the next.
This is completely incorrect. You have clearly not looked at the R&D pane, as items blue and up require dilithium to craft. That includes every console schematic above Mk3.
The difference between required or nice-to-have is pretty thin. Can you level to VA in a T2 ship? Sure! I did it on tribble. Are you going to get a STF group in one, or in common gear, when you can't pull your own weight? Good luck with that.
Thats right; I said it. I actually LIKE the new changes. Which ones? ALL of them. Buying high end gear with dillithium, being able to convert dillithium to CP to get C-store items, and now some crafting tiers requiring dillithium. Why in the world would I like those things?
Simple: none of them are actually needed to play the game. I've heard stories of people geting to VA in their T2 ships, so you obviouslly dont NEED a VA ship. The same goes for purple gear. Is it nice? Sure, but its to be honest its BARELY better than blue. As far as crafting goes, some people seem to think that everything you craft will now require dillithium, but that is incorrect. It is only every OTHER tier that will, and as previously explained there really isnt much of a difference in the stats of one tier to the next.
And people talk about "grinding", but get real; you ALREADY have to grind to get purple gear. You ALREADY have to grind to get enough emblems to get C-store ships. You ALREADY have to grind to get the high end anomalies you need to craft the high end gear. The new system isnt turning the game into a grind because its ALREADY a grind to get those things.
The new changes are simply bringing uniformity to the grind by having a common element needed: dillithium. But the fact remains, and I repeat this is actually a FACT: no one "needs" any of the things that require dillithium to play the game or get to max level. Wanting and needing are very different things, and if Cryptic can make you really WANT something then they have dont their job as a business.
I agree with almost everything you say. I like most DL changes, except for the crafting one, and the reason is not that I think you NEED to craft. The reason I think the crafting change is bad is because it cripples an important part of the social gameplay. Anomaly trading, fleet crafters, and craft-trades are all gonna disappear from the game. On holodeck crafting is mostly a social activity - you mostly craft for others (or your alts, but that's another thing) or interact with others (e.g. via the exchange) to get crafting resources because you need to craft a significant mass to gain crafting XP. This activity will become a SOLO activity with this change, and THAT'S my problem with it.
After some thinking I think there is a pretty simple solution for allowing crafting to remain a social activity, while still controlling it and preventing an inflation due to over-production of rare items. It also has a good plus for gold members. Here are the main points of my idea:
* Add tier- or (even) mark-specific schematics that cost dilithium (but not anomalies or crafting skills) and are available in several places (e.g. ESD, K-7, Mem Alpha and their Klingon equivalents).
* Specific schematics should be unbound and tradeable via direct trade, mail or fleet banks. No exchange to prevent inflation (although I seel little harm in adding it there).
* Specific schematics can be obtained in drops as rare or very rare items.
* Odd marks require standard (tierless/markless) schematics (as they do today), and even marks require the specific schematics.
* Crafting takes real time (like DOff assignments) and require free-crafting slots.
* Gold members get 2-4 slots (increases in crafting ranking).
* Silver members get no slots.
* Any craftnig beyond the free-crafting slots costs dilithium (i.e., silvers always pay and golds pay for extra-crafts).
* Add "expedite crafting" tokens available for GPL, available for mail and face-to-face trading (no exchange or fleet bank), which cuts your crafting time by 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 and 2/3. These tokens can be regarded as "bribing" the Ferengi brothers in Mem Alpha to "take care" of your interests there.
* Make "expedite crafting" tokens also available for C-Points, so they have an indirect dilithium price. It also gives the option to "grind" them via Dabo (or dilithium) or pay for them with real $$.
I will also post these ideas later in a new thread if you like them and/or if I think of more points.
...The entire game runs off of one artificial pay-gate now; Dilithium. You pay in time, or in money. Its a job, or a billl.
But not fun.
Yeah, I used to play STO to have a good time. To run missions or play with crafting and tinker with the builds on my several characters. ...Honestly, I can't remember the last time I really had fun playing STO.
While there are still some points to hammer out, namely the Dilithium Refine Cap, I can only feel optimistic at the changes and for the future of the game. Mostly because Cryptic have shown extremely quick response times for this testing cycle, and in gathering player feedback which is actually being implemented as modifications to their original plans .
I'm sorry but that simply isnt true. The only things that require DL are the things that already required grinding under the current system. Purple gear requires grinding marks/emblems, T5 C-store ships require grinding marks/emblems, and high end crafting requires grinding rare anomalies. Unless you are talking about something else; if so please explain.
They still require rares AND now dilithium.
This is worth repeating: Cryptic has chosen to tie dilithium with c-store points, cp are tied to cash, hence dilithium is tied to cash. This change, no matter how you try to justify it, is adding a cash tax to crafting. This could only be found acceptable by someone who isn't a crafter or refuses to admit Cryptic makes mistakes.
Last month, I leveled x2 new toons to 51 (and both of them together) around 22 days.
I used all common gear (during leveling) and no green / blue / purple (until I hit 51).
Both toons grinded to 1650 crafter , 5 hours of farming per toon, and not making any blue or purple gear.
This game needs to def toughen up alot more imo
Great, so you can do it. Based on your own comment, you play this game like it's a full time job. Guess what? I play games to have fun, not to work. So I should be forced into repetitive grind, I should have to craft on every character i create, I should be forced to spend even more money than I already am, because YOU find the game easy? Gee thanks...
Great, so you can do it. Based on your own comment, you play this game like it's a full time job. Guess what? I play games to have fun, not to work. So I should be forced into repetitive grind, I should have to craft on every character i create, I should be forced to spend even more money than I already am, because YOU find the game easy? Gee thanks...
Just because he levelled quickly doesn't invalidate his point about not needing anything but common gear to do so.
You can level and continue to play this game at any pace you like with common gear, and do perfectly fine. However, if you want extra stats, then your DAMN RIGHT YOU SHOULD BE EXPECTED TO PLAY THE GAME A LITTLE TO GET THEM. Honestly, I must disagree with you here.
This is a game after all, the point is not only to do things with other people (mmo) but to also beat the game, rise to the challenge and keep going - to do so, your encouraged to upgear and upskill to make it easier on you - Just because you don't want to put effort into getting the optional gear doesn't mean its the system's bad.
All the dilithium amounts are very reasonable considering they are cheaper than vendors (but with anomalies mostly). Much of the cost will be earned through regular play, there is no grind. Just basic effort put in.
Just because he levelled quickly doesn't invalidate his point about not needing anything but common gear to do so.
You can level and continue to play this game at any pace you like with common gear, and do perfectly fine. However, if you want extra stats, then your DAMN RIGHT YOU SHOULD BE EXPECTED TO PLAY THE GAME A LITTLE TO GET THEM. Honestly, I must disagree with you here.
This is a game after all, the point is not only to do things with other people (mmo) but to also beat the game, rise to the challenge and keep going - to do so, your encouraged to upgear and upskill to make it easier on you - Just because you don't want to put effort into getting the optional gear doesn't mean its the system's bad.
All the dilithium amounts are very reasonable considering they are cheaper than vendors (but with anomalies mostly). Much of the cost will be earned through regular play, there is no grind. Just basic effort put in.
See, you've been poisoned by bad MMO's; games like WoW, PWI, and Requiem that require endless grind to get where you want and what you want. There is a difference between challenging gameplay and a grindfest. Go play Guild Wars and see if you can figure out the difference. Once you're at max level there, you're also on equal footing gear and stat wise, it then becomes a question of who is more skilled at the game, not who put in the most time grinding or the most money paying for the best gear.
Please, take the time to check out how MMO's should really work, then maybe you won't have to resort to calling people lazy when you don't have a rational counterpoint.
See, you've been poisoned by bad MMO's; games like WoW, PWI, and Requiem that require endless grind to get where you want and what you want. There is a difference between challenging gameplay and a grindfest. Go play Guild Wars and see if you can figure out the difference. Once you're at max level there, you're also on equal footing gear and stat wise, it then becomes a question of who is more skilled at the game, not who put in the most time grinding or the most money paying for the best gear.
Please, take the time to check out how MMO's should really work, then maybe you won't have to resort to calling people lazy when you don't have a rational counterpoint.
Your entitled to your opinion on what a grind is, but I can still disagree because a grind, for me, is when I have to spend an inordinate amount of time to get something done which I NEED to get done and in which I must follow a pre-determined path in ORDER to get done.
So I hope you can see why I don't accept your labelling on this as being a grind. As it has so many optional tags and alternative means of achieving - as well as being extremely efficient on time to earn since you acquire the prerequisites through ambiant gameplay - heck you even make dilithium ore to be refined when your offline via doff assignments. Grind while asleep?
I didn't call you lazy. Your reading too much into the word "effort".
I underlined what I find to be the most subjective piece of your position, and slightly offensive, but at least your not calling me 'lazy'. ^^
Great, so you can do it. Based on your own comment, you play this game like it's a full time job. Guess what? I play games to have fun, not to work. So I should be forced into repetitive grind, I should have to craft on every character i create, I should be forced to spend even more money than I already am, because YOU find the game easy? Gee thanks...
The point I was trying to make is:
1) you dont need high end anything to level a toon to 51,
2) you def dont need to buy anything from the C-Store to level a toon, and
3) you def dont need to spend alot of time to level a toon (let alone 2 toons)
Outside of a LTS purchase...I have never spend 1 dime to level a toon and I never intend too...
Last month, I leveled x2 new toons to 51 (and both of them together) around 22 days.
I used all common gear (during leveling) and no green / blue / purple (until I hit 51).
Both toons grinded to 1650 crafter , 5 hours of farming per toon, and not making any blue or purple gear.
This game needs to def toughen up alot more imo
This month I leveled a toon on Tribble to VA simply by using the DOFF system. (Yes in a Sabre with common gear) What to say? I liked it. And then I wanted to purple out the gear. First disappointment: Although being VA I could not go to 'Assimilation' to get that borg console. I had to start with SS Azura again! Than I wanted to get the Aegis set. I knew I had to grind for all of that stuff to level up my crafting abilities. But than I realized that I also had to grind for all that DL. But although my toon is VA I could not access all of the daylies because of the mission restriction. So the only DL grind mission was DOFF system (5DL) Starfleet Academy and the exploration daylie.
In short: I lost the interest.
I don't think to toughen the game by restrictions or grindings is a fun solution. Both are no fun and only frustrating. Let there be far more possibilities in doing things you want, that would hit it. Or say it the Trekkie way: IDIC (Infinite diversity in infinite combinations )
This month I leveled a toon on Tribble to VA simply by using the DOFF system. (Yes in a Sabre with common gear) What to say? I liked it. And then I wanted to purple out the gear. First disappointment: Although being VA I could not go to 'Assimilation' to get that borg console. I had to start with SS Azura again! Than I wanted to get the Aegis set. I knew I had to grind for all of that stuff to level up my crafting abilities. But than I realized that I also had to grind for all that DL. But although my toon is VA I could not access all of the daylies because of the mission restriction. So the only DL grind mission was DOFF system (5DL) Starfleet Academy and the exploration daylie.
In short: I lost the interest.
I don't think to toughen the game by restrictions or grindings is a fun solution. Both are no fun and only frustrating. Let there be far more possibilities in doing things you want, that would hit it. Or say it the Trekkie way: IDIC (Infinite diversity in infinite combinations )
The trick with leveling a crafter up is to grind the resources out on a KDF toon and then mail them to your SF toon...the KDF sectors are all right next to each other and it takes very little time to acquire data samples (in the fast turning little BOP's)...you can also totally level to 1650 without ever crafting purples and blues if you manage the samples just right...
Wierd you cant access the Borg console mission as a VA...you should have 24/7 access to that on any VA toon (unless something major has changed)...
Very cool you can level with the DOFF system...way cool...
1) you dont need high end anything to level a toon to 51,
2) you def dont need to buy anything from the C-Store to level a toon, and
3) you def dont need to spend alot of time to level a toon (let alone 2 toons)
Outside of a LTS purchase...I have never spend 1 dime to level a toon and I never intend too...
It took me until very recently to level my first character to VA. It took this long because I'm a casual player. I don't mind not being able to get the best gear, I don't mind buying a ship or two (actually I already have bought almost every ship offered). I actually agree with all three of your points. I do not, and will never, agree with putting a dilithium crafting tax in the game. I really don't want even an EC crafting tax in the game. I'm against the introduction to these changes that introduce unnecessary grinding into STO for no other reason than to force people to open their wallets and to s-l-o-w people down.
Grind added into a game to force people to take longer to get to endgame content IS NOT the addition of content. If dilithium is going to be the main currency, it needs to be earn able in more diverse ways rather than repetitively grinding dailies. I do not like the way Cryptic constantly tells us one thing, and then does another. Maybe I've been spoiled by Guild Wars, but there you aren't FORCED into the c-store, you go there because the game is great and you WANT to support them - which is exactly how I felt about STO until a lot of these changes.
How many c-store items have been produced over the last year and a half? Now, how much content? Don't include the foundry, getting the community to create missions for you is NOT adding content. Even with this slow development, I was fine just playing even slower, enjoying the game, buying store items because I wanted STO to continue.
NO MORE! Every change is intentionally crafted to slow the game down (giving the appearance of more content) and push people into the c-store for everything (F2P2W). Maybe STO will survive with these changes. Maybe STO will thrive on these changes. But the STO I love to play will be gone, and me with it. That's why I will NOT accept these changes. That's why I will post my displeasure and argue my point. I'm trying to save the game I love from becoming another game I leave.
And I do get passionate at times, and I do vent at times. I do NOT mean to belittle anyone, everyone has a different idea as to what fun is.
It took me until very recently to level my first character to VA. It took this long because I'm a casual player. I don't mind not being able to get the best gear, I don't mind buying a ship or two (actually I already have bought almost every ship offered). I actually agree with all three of your points. I do not, and will never, agree with putting a dilithium crafting tax in the game. I really don't want even an EC crafting tax in the game. I'm against the introduction to these changes that introduce unnecessary grinding into STO for no other reason than to force people to open their wallets and to s-l-o-w people down.
Grind added into a game to force people to take longer to get to endgame content IS NOT the addition of content. If dilithium is going to be the main currency, it needs to be earn able in more diverse ways rather than repetitively grinding dailies. I do not like the way Cryptic constantly tells us one thing, and then does another. Maybe I've been spoiled by Guild Wars, but there you aren't FORCED into the c-store, you go there because the game is great and you WANT to support them - which is exactly how I felt about STO until a lot of these changes.
How many c-store items have been produced over the last year and a half? Now, how much content? Don't include the foundry, getting the community to create missions for you is NOT adding content. Even with this slow development, I was fine just playing even slower, enjoying the game, buying store items because I wanted STO to continue.
NO MORE! Every change is intentionally crafted to slow the game down (giving the appearance of more content) and push people into the c-store for everything (F2P2W). Maybe STO will survive with these changes. Maybe STO will thrive on these changes. But the STO I love to play will be gone, and me with it. That's why I will NOT accept these changes. That's why I will post my displeasure and argue my point. I'm trying to save the game I love from becoming another game I leave.
And I do get passionate at times, and I do vent at times. I do NOT mean to belittle anyone, everyone has a different idea as to what fun is.
Believe it or not, I went through a similar deal with SOE / LA paying for SWG for 7+ years only to watch those companies make some horrid MMO IP decision making and now shutting down their servers on 12-15-11...so I hear you completly about being passionate about one game and wanting to have fun at whatever pace...I've def been there...and am still there regarding SWG...
I agree with your viewpoints...now if we can only get these viewpoints across to the ultimate decision makers regarding this F2P model...I for one would like to see improvement too...
Not to burst any bubbles here but they aren't making a game for us anymore. They are making a game for the people they expect to flood in when f2p goes live. They are making a game for people who tried out STO and didn't like it because it was to easy or didn't like it because any number of other flaws.
The number of MMO players that didn't like STO is much larger then the number that do. If Cryptic needs to get those other players paying to move forward then change is required. And that change is to make the game more like what other people want. In turn less like what we have been enjoying.
It's not that they want us to leave. They just don't care if we do.
When you get right down to it the free to play beta started on 2/2/10 and ends sometime before the end of the this year.
The trick with leveling a crafter up is to grind the resources out on a KDF toon and then mail them to your SF toon...the KDF sectors are all right next to each other and it takes very little time to acquire data samples (in the fast turning little BOP's)...you can also totally level to 1650 without ever crafting purples and blues if you manage the samples just right...
I wouldn't suggest doing that. When I leveled my KDF characters I usually got only 1-2 data samples on a SUCCESSFUL scan (really, 1 sample with a success) inside planetary systems. Federation characters usually get 4-6. Also federation often gets those "scan 5 anomalies" missions.
Wierd you cant access the Borg console mission as a VA...you should have 24/7 access to that on any VA toon (unless something major has changed)...
You need to complete the Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian episodes to unlock the Transwarp to Gamma Orionis quest. That's apparenlty going to change though.
The trick with leveling a crafter up is to grind the resources out on a KDF toon and then mail them to your SF toon...the KDF sectors are all right next to each other and it takes very little time to acquire data samples (in the fast turning little BOP's)...you can also totally level to 1650 without ever crafting purples and blues if you manage the samples just right...
There is an even faster possibility to get past this boring grind. BUT I won't tell here. I don't want Cryptic to shut that one down :rolleyes: If you want to know PM me.
Wierd you cant access the Borg console mission as a VA...you should have 24/7 access to that on any VA toon (unless something major has changed)....
I still can't with the toon I created on tribble. I actually can go to Gamma Orionis with the VA I transferred from holodeck. But even with this one I don't have access to all of the missions. So: 'Play it again Sam' :eek:
Very cool you can level with the DOFF system...way cool... .
YESS!!! Indeed! The DOFF system is a real great gameplay improvement. And it's fun! It gives you the feeling of being the captain of a big big starship.
I really don't get the appeal of grindnig for gear. Why is t hat ever a feature?
I think the real feature should be that you can do fun stuff at end-game. Grinding specific missions to get gear is not that at all.
With a good selection of very rare gear and my vice admiral ship, I could join PvP and focus entirely on mastering my personal skills, my build and learning how to work with my team. That provided me a lot of fun and I was glad that the little Emblems I could get for exclusively PvPing was not that important.
I never minded having an easy time acquiring gear. It allowed me to focus on the part of the game that is actually fun for me.
If you say PvE is too easy and you don't even need the gear - then what's the point of making it costly? Wouldn't it be more worthy to first create a reason for this gear by upping the difficulty of PvE?
Or are you saying the game can#t stand on its own with its gameplay and it needs to force us into grinding for gear instead of trying to squeeing some enjoyment of otherwise shallow content and gameplay?
Wouldnt that suggest Cryptic needs to start working on the content and the gameplay to make it a deeper, more fulfilling experience? So that it is genuinely fun to get into an Exploration mission and engage enemies in space or ground combat?
...Or are you saying the game can#t stand on its own with its gameplay and it needs to force us into grinding for gear instead of trying to squeeing some enjoyment of otherwise shallow content and gameplay? Wouldnt that suggest Cryptic needs to start working on the content and the gameplay to make it a deeper, more fulfilling experience? So that it is genuinely fun to get into an Exploration mission and engage enemies in space or ground combat?
I'm afraid it does. We're at exactly that point.
In fact THERE IS a major problem with the STO gameplay: Its too predictable, it's too linear. Because of this even PvE (although I really love the story arcs) gets boring after the third time.
Just some examples we all encountered:
- Exploration missions: Scan this or that 5 times (ground and space), blast 6 enemies out of the stars etc. I mean you do that for the first time and its fun. You do it for the second time ... it still may be some fun. You do it for the third time: No more fun. You're forced to do it x-times for getting an accolade or stuff for crafting things. NO FUN AT ALL.
- Same with the space encounters.
- Same with PvE missions.
- Same with crafting.
After playing the first time, the only motivation doing it a second or third time is to get an accolade, a specific item or grinding for anomalies/particles/emblems/marks/DL/whatever. Now, to get these things you are FORCED to repeat the same thing over and over again, hundreds of times. That's the point. Where is the FUN in doing that?
So making missions harder isn't really a solution. It's cheating.
Making them fun to play twice or x-times is the solution.
Making them fun to play because there is a DIFFERENCE playing on LC or VA rank, because there is a difference playing as a tac/sci/eng, because there is a difference playing with a female or male toon, a difference playing as Vulcan, or Andorian, or Pakhled or whatever.
BTW. - Why are there BO's with different abilities? You don't need them. Why aren't you able to let them interact in missions using their specific abilities?
- Crafting isn't crafting at all! Its a simple exchange of things: Give this, receive that. Where is the gaming in that one? Being forced to use MORE things to get a specific item isn't really a gameplay improvement!
- Dabo! I meant its nice to look at Leeta or hearing the voice of Chase Masterton. But the Dabo gameplay is very 'minimalistic'. Its simply clicking a button over and over again, after waiting a certain time.
You see there really is a major problem with the STO gameplay.
Don't get me wrong: I don't want to spoil this game! I want it to be the best game ever! - OK at least the best Star Trek game ever :rolleyes:
I really don't get the appeal of grindnig for gear. Why is t hat ever a feature?
Because WoW did it.
There's only one MMO in recent years that has managed to provide varied gameplay, varied methods of leveling and gearing up and things to do that do not include combat. If only it had been Star Trek.
There's only one MMO in recent years that has managed to provide varied gameplay, varied methods of leveling and gearing up and things to do that do not include combat. If only it had been Star Trek.
"sigh", bigger "sigh", gigantic "sigh" (I had to do this repeating, otherwise my message would not have postet.) :rolleyes:
Thats right; I said it. I actually LIKE the new changes. Which ones? ALL of them. Buying high end gear with dillithium, being able to convert dillithium to CP to get C-store items, and now some crafting tiers requiring dillithium. Why in the world would I like those things?
Simple: none of them are actually needed to play the game. I've heard stories of people geting to VA in their T2 ships, so you obviouslly dont NEED a VA ship. The same goes for purple gear. Is it nice? Sure, but its to be honest its BARELY better than blue. As far as crafting goes, some people seem to think that everything you craft will now require dillithium, but that is incorrect. It is only every OTHER tier that will, and as previously explained there really isnt much of a difference in the stats of one tier to the next.
And people talk about "grinding", but get real; you ALREADY have to grind to get purple gear. You ALREADY have to grind to get enough emblems to get C-store ships. You ALREADY have to grind to get the high end anomalies you need to craft the high end gear. The new system isnt turning the game into a grind because its ALREADY a grind to get those things.
The new changes are simply bringing uniformity to the grind by having a common element needed: dillithium. But the fact remains, and I repeat this is actually a FACT: no one "needs" any of the things that require dillithium to play the game or get to max level. Wanting and needing are very different things, and if Cryptic can make you really WANT something then they have dont their job as a business.
You didn't speak on playing the SAME missions on EVERY toon in the SAME order EVERY SINGLE TIME. So maybe "all" wasn't quite accurate.
Comments
I agree and disagree.
In theory, what Cryptic are trying to do on Tribble is good but the execution leaves something to be desired. Lets look at the crafting changes, it is a great idea to stop people being able to mass produce high end gear but the way they've done it is just about the laziest (or greediest) way to do it. Instead of making a complex and involving crafting system where the players need each other to make the best stuff, they've just slapped on a time gate using Dilithium.
Liek you though, I do like the uniformity to the grind and that you can trade Dilithium for CP (and you're spot on, we do need to grind now for the best stuff). However at present the refining cap and the prices of ships and gear means you're going to gather up ore and spend days or weeks logging on for 30 seconds to refine and then log out, or you carry on playing and struggle on without the ship or gear you're supposed to be using, which brings me on to the next point.
You may have heard stories of people getting to VA in a T2 ship, but have you done it yourself? For those that have, good for them but it certainly isn't the norm and will the shiny new players this transition is supposed to attract be able to do this? Not likely I'd say. Some limit needs to be in place for silvers to make a subscription have any value, but reducing either your desire or ability to keep playing is a bloody stupid way to do it. We can debate back and forth about the VA ship so I'll just say I think it's important for a company, especially if they want my money, to actually keep the promises they make, in this case that subscriptions would not lose anything.
So yeah, nice ideas Cryptic, lousy execution.
Shouldn't we need that tech to continue leveling to keep from hitting a glass ceilling?
As to the remainder of the OP and most of the subsequent post that state if you don't need it, then you are okay without it, I submit: I am okay with you being without it. Just don't agree to limit my game play to your standards. I have purple gear across the board on all my toons because that is something that I enjoy doing through the crafting system; that is my casual play. It really has nothing to do with you leveling in a shuttle or whatever else you do.
What I really don't like is Cryptic making a change to that will put the crafting system squarely into the economic system of the game. Outside of purchasing materials or selling the items that you craft, that should be the extent of the interaction of the two systems, period. If they go through with this, it will be the only MMO that I can think of doing it.
So I have to ask, do you support this becuase you want the dilithium to be C-point based making people buy it with real cash or do you support this becuase it will extend the time other spend collecting it?
This is completely incorrect. You have clearly not looked at the R&D pane, as items blue and up require dilithium to craft. That includes every console schematic above Mk3.
The difference between required or nice-to-have is pretty thin. Can you level to VA in a T2 ship? Sure! I did it on tribble. Are you going to get a STF group in one, or in common gear, when you can't pull your own weight? Good luck with that.
I agree with almost everything you say. I like most DL changes, except for the crafting one, and the reason is not that I think you NEED to craft. The reason I think the crafting change is bad is because it cripples an important part of the social gameplay. Anomaly trading, fleet crafters, and craft-trades are all gonna disappear from the game. On holodeck crafting is mostly a social activity - you mostly craft for others (or your alts, but that's another thing) or interact with others (e.g. via the exchange) to get crafting resources because you need to craft a significant mass to gain crafting XP. This activity will become a SOLO activity with this change, and THAT'S my problem with it.
After some thinking I think there is a pretty simple solution for allowing crafting to remain a social activity, while still controlling it and preventing an inflation due to over-production of rare items. It also has a good plus for gold members. Here are the main points of my idea:
* Add tier- or (even) mark-specific schematics that cost dilithium (but not anomalies or crafting skills) and are available in several places (e.g. ESD, K-7, Mem Alpha and their Klingon equivalents).
* Specific schematics should be unbound and tradeable via direct trade, mail or fleet banks. No exchange to prevent inflation (although I seel little harm in adding it there).
* Specific schematics can be obtained in drops as rare or very rare items.
* Odd marks require standard (tierless/markless) schematics (as they do today), and even marks require the specific schematics.
* Crafting takes real time (like DOff assignments) and require free-crafting slots.
* Gold members get 2-4 slots (increases in crafting ranking).
* Silver members get no slots.
* Any craftnig beyond the free-crafting slots costs dilithium (i.e., silvers always pay and golds pay for extra-crafts).
* Add "expedite crafting" tokens available for GPL, available for mail and face-to-face trading (no exchange or fleet bank), which cuts your crafting time by 1/4, 1/3, 1/2 and 2/3. These tokens can be regarded as "bribing" the Ferengi brothers in Mem Alpha to "take care" of your interests there.
* Make "expedite crafting" tokens also available for C-Points, so they have an indirect dilithium price. It also gives the option to "grind" them via Dabo (or dilithium) or pay for them with real $$.
I will also post these ideas later in a new thread if you like them and/or if I think of more points.
I used all common gear (during leveling) and no green / blue / purple (until I hit 51).
Both toons grinded to 1650 crafter , 5 hours of farming per toon, and not making any blue or purple gear.
This game needs to def toughen up alot more imo
... Maybe it's time to call it quits.
So you're saying player feedback is the reason for all these changes? I remember Cryptic's "original plans" were for no restrictions on content access... In addition, subscribers should notice little to no change. As far as I've seen, any changes in price will be to lower prices on some items..
Yet, I'm noticing more and more changes. and with each passing Dev Blog I feel less and less hope.
They still require rares AND now dilithium.
This is worth repeating: Cryptic has chosen to tie dilithium with c-store points, cp are tied to cash, hence dilithium is tied to cash. This change, no matter how you try to justify it, is adding a cash tax to crafting. This could only be found acceptable by someone who isn't a crafter or refuses to admit Cryptic makes mistakes.
I'm sorry, it appears you don't know what you're talking about. Mk IX, X, and XI all require dilithium so it is MORE than every other level.
Great, so you can do it. Based on your own comment, you play this game like it's a full time job. Guess what? I play games to have fun, not to work. So I should be forced into repetitive grind, I should have to craft on every character i create, I should be forced to spend even more money than I already am, because YOU find the game easy? Gee thanks...
Just because he levelled quickly doesn't invalidate his point about not needing anything but common gear to do so.
You can level and continue to play this game at any pace you like with common gear, and do perfectly fine. However, if you want extra stats, then your DAMN RIGHT YOU SHOULD BE EXPECTED TO PLAY THE GAME A LITTLE TO GET THEM. Honestly, I must disagree with you here.
This is a game after all, the point is not only to do things with other people (mmo) but to also beat the game, rise to the challenge and keep going - to do so, your encouraged to upgear and upskill to make it easier on you - Just because you don't want to put effort into getting the optional gear doesn't mean its the system's bad.
All the dilithium amounts are very reasonable considering they are cheaper than vendors (but with anomalies mostly). Much of the cost will be earned through regular play, there is no grind. Just basic effort put in.
Here's a radical idea. INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY INSTEAD OF TRIBBLE OVER PEOPLE WHO ENJOY CRAFTING.
See, you've been poisoned by bad MMO's; games like WoW, PWI, and Requiem that require endless grind to get where you want and what you want. There is a difference between challenging gameplay and a grindfest. Go play Guild Wars and see if you can figure out the difference. Once you're at max level there, you're also on equal footing gear and stat wise, it then becomes a question of who is more skilled at the game, not who put in the most time grinding or the most money paying for the best gear.
Please, take the time to check out how MMO's should really work, then maybe you won't have to resort to calling people lazy when you don't have a rational counterpoint.
Your entitled to your opinion on what a grind is, but I can still disagree because a grind, for me, is when I have to spend an inordinate amount of time to get something done which I NEED to get done and in which I must follow a pre-determined path in ORDER to get done.
So I hope you can see why I don't accept your labelling on this as being a grind. As it has so many optional tags and alternative means of achieving - as well as being extremely efficient on time to earn since you acquire the prerequisites through ambiant gameplay - heck you even make dilithium ore to be refined when your offline via doff assignments. Grind while asleep?
I didn't call you lazy. Your reading too much into the word "effort".
I underlined what I find to be the most subjective piece of your position, and slightly offensive, but at least your not calling me 'lazy'. ^^
The point I was trying to make is:
1) you dont need high end anything to level a toon to 51,
2) you def dont need to buy anything from the C-Store to level a toon, and
3) you def dont need to spend alot of time to level a toon (let alone 2 toons)
Outside of a LTS purchase...I have never spend 1 dime to level a toon and I never intend too...
This month I leveled a toon on Tribble to VA simply by using the DOFF system. (Yes in a Sabre with common gear) What to say? I liked it. And then I wanted to purple out the gear. First disappointment: Although being VA I could not go to 'Assimilation' to get that borg console. I had to start with SS Azura again! Than I wanted to get the Aegis set. I knew I had to grind for all of that stuff to level up my crafting abilities. But than I realized that I also had to grind for all that DL. But although my toon is VA I could not access all of the daylies because of the mission restriction. So the only DL grind mission was DOFF system (5DL) Starfleet Academy and the exploration daylie.
In short: I lost the interest.
I don't think to toughen the game by restrictions or grindings is a fun solution. Both are no fun and only frustrating. Let there be far more possibilities in doing things you want, that would hit it. Or say it the Trekkie way: IDIC (Infinite diversity in infinite combinations
The trick with leveling a crafter up is to grind the resources out on a KDF toon and then mail them to your SF toon...the KDF sectors are all right next to each other and it takes very little time to acquire data samples (in the fast turning little BOP's)...you can also totally level to 1650 without ever crafting purples and blues if you manage the samples just right...
Wierd you cant access the Borg console mission as a VA...you should have 24/7 access to that on any VA toon (unless something major has changed)...
Very cool you can level with the DOFF system...way cool...
It took me until very recently to level my first character to VA. It took this long because I'm a casual player. I don't mind not being able to get the best gear, I don't mind buying a ship or two (actually I already have bought almost every ship offered). I actually agree with all three of your points. I do not, and will never, agree with putting a dilithium crafting tax in the game. I really don't want even an EC crafting tax in the game. I'm against the introduction to these changes that introduce unnecessary grinding into STO for no other reason than to force people to open their wallets and to s-l-o-w people down.
Grind added into a game to force people to take longer to get to endgame content IS NOT the addition of content. If dilithium is going to be the main currency, it needs to be earn able in more diverse ways rather than repetitively grinding dailies. I do not like the way Cryptic constantly tells us one thing, and then does another. Maybe I've been spoiled by Guild Wars, but there you aren't FORCED into the c-store, you go there because the game is great and you WANT to support them - which is exactly how I felt about STO until a lot of these changes.
How many c-store items have been produced over the last year and a half? Now, how much content? Don't include the foundry, getting the community to create missions for you is NOT adding content. Even with this slow development, I was fine just playing even slower, enjoying the game, buying store items because I wanted STO to continue.
NO MORE! Every change is intentionally crafted to slow the game down (giving the appearance of more content) and push people into the c-store for everything (F2P2W). Maybe STO will survive with these changes. Maybe STO will thrive on these changes. But the STO I love to play will be gone, and me with it. That's why I will NOT accept these changes. That's why I will post my displeasure and argue my point. I'm trying to save the game I love from becoming another game I leave.
And I do get passionate at times, and I do vent at times. I do NOT mean to belittle anyone, everyone has a different idea as to what fun is.
Believe it or not, I went through a similar deal with SOE / LA paying for SWG for 7+ years only to watch those companies make some horrid MMO IP decision making and now shutting down their servers on 12-15-11...so I hear you completly about being passionate about one game and wanting to have fun at whatever pace...I've def been there...and am still there regarding SWG...
I agree with your viewpoints...now if we can only get these viewpoints across to the ultimate decision makers regarding this F2P model...I for one would like to see improvement too...
The number of MMO players that didn't like STO is much larger then the number that do. If Cryptic needs to get those other players paying to move forward then change is required. And that change is to make the game more like what other people want. In turn less like what we have been enjoying.
It's not that they want us to leave. They just don't care if we do.
When you get right down to it the free to play beta started on 2/2/10 and ends sometime before the end of the this year.
I wouldn't suggest doing that. When I leveled my KDF characters I usually got only 1-2 data samples on a SUCCESSFUL scan (really, 1 sample with a success) inside planetary systems. Federation characters usually get 4-6. Also federation often gets those "scan 5 anomalies" missions.
You need to complete the Klingon, Romulan and Cardassian episodes to unlock the Transwarp to Gamma Orionis quest. That's apparenlty going to change though.
There is an even faster possibility to get past this boring grind. BUT I won't tell here. I don't want Cryptic to shut that one down :rolleyes: If you want to know PM me.
I still can't with the toon I created on tribble. I actually can go to Gamma Orionis with the VA I transferred from holodeck. But even with this one I don't have access to all of the missions. So: 'Play it again Sam' :eek:
YESS!!! Indeed! The DOFF system is a real great gameplay improvement. And it's fun! It gives you the feeling of being the captain of a big big starship.
I think the real feature should be that you can do fun stuff at end-game. Grinding specific missions to get gear is not that at all.
With a good selection of very rare gear and my vice admiral ship, I could join PvP and focus entirely on mastering my personal skills, my build and learning how to work with my team. That provided me a lot of fun and I was glad that the little Emblems I could get for exclusively PvPing was not that important.
I never minded having an easy time acquiring gear. It allowed me to focus on the part of the game that is actually fun for me.
If you say PvE is too easy and you don't even need the gear - then what's the point of making it costly? Wouldn't it be more worthy to first create a reason for this gear by upping the difficulty of PvE?
Or are you saying the game can#t stand on its own with its gameplay and it needs to force us into grinding for gear instead of trying to squeeing some enjoyment of otherwise shallow content and gameplay?
Wouldnt that suggest Cryptic needs to start working on the content and the gameplay to make it a deeper, more fulfilling experience? So that it is genuinely fun to get into an Exploration mission and engage enemies in space or ground combat?
I'm afraid it does. We're at exactly that point.
In fact THERE IS a major problem with the STO gameplay: Its too predictable, it's too linear. Because of this even PvE (although I really love the story arcs) gets boring after the third time.
Just some examples we all encountered:
- Exploration missions: Scan this or that 5 times (ground and space), blast 6 enemies out of the stars etc. I mean you do that for the first time and its fun. You do it for the second time ... it still may be some fun. You do it for the third time: No more fun. You're forced to do it x-times for getting an accolade or stuff for crafting things. NO FUN AT ALL.
- Same with the space encounters.
- Same with PvE missions.
- Same with crafting.
After playing the first time, the only motivation doing it a second or third time is to get an accolade, a specific item or grinding for anomalies/particles/emblems/marks/DL/whatever. Now, to get these things you are FORCED to repeat the same thing over and over again, hundreds of times. That's the point. Where is the FUN in doing that?
So making missions harder isn't really a solution. It's cheating.
Making them fun to play twice or x-times is the solution.
Making them fun to play because there is a DIFFERENCE playing on LC or VA rank, because there is a difference playing as a tac/sci/eng, because there is a difference playing with a female or male toon, a difference playing as Vulcan, or Andorian, or Pakhled or whatever.
BTW. - Why are there BO's with different abilities? You don't need them. Why aren't you able to let them interact in missions using their specific abilities?
- Crafting isn't crafting at all! Its a simple exchange of things: Give this, receive that. Where is the gaming in that one? Being forced to use MORE things to get a specific item isn't really a gameplay improvement!
- Dabo! I meant its nice to look at Leeta or hearing the voice of Chase Masterton. But the Dabo gameplay is very 'minimalistic'. Its simply clicking a button over and over again, after waiting a certain time.
You see there really is a major problem with the STO gameplay.
Don't get me wrong: I don't want to spoil this game! I want it to be the best game ever! - OK at least the best Star Trek game ever :rolleyes:
Because WoW did it.
There's only one MMO in recent years that has managed to provide varied gameplay, varied methods of leveling and gearing up and things to do that do not include combat. If only it had been Star Trek.
"sigh", bigger "sigh", gigantic "sigh" (I had to do this repeating, otherwise my message would not have postet.) :rolleyes:
You didn't speak on playing the SAME missions on EVERY toon in the SAME order EVERY SINGLE TIME. So maybe "all" wasn't quite accurate.
This is why.
Z
Wow, talk about feeling like one of Pavlovs' dogs.