test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options
Great Job DStahl and Team for all the work you've done with STO!
System
Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
Okay I've been reading all the posts about Pay to win and it's all a bunch of nonsense. First off, the Rhode Island is not even a HUGE advantage that takes away from all the work that was done by other players. Secondly STO team has done amazing work in balancing how the C-Store works with the game.
Lets take a look at reality here people, we live in a society where money is necessary no matter how much we like what we do. In order to keep this game going, Cryptic is going to need money in order to make it work. All of you complain about content, it takes money to get that content to you people. You people want more content in less time? Well guess what boys and girls, it takes money. So if Cryptic is trying to raise revenue to make things work for you guys. Then I say go for it.
To all of you who are so fanatical about this P2W which I have seen very little evidence with the new Rhode Island ship, then I challenge to put your money where your mouth is and help Cryptic out by agreeing to give up your Lifetime memberships and agree to switch back to the Monthly Subscription model. That model will allow Cryptic to have a steady source of income and probably eliminate the need for such a model.
Truth is any MMO now a days with lifetime membership are going to run into this kind of problem with income in the long run. Thats why I hope that SWTOR decides NOT to go with a lifetime membership plan because while it's good for a initial rush of income in the beginning, your only going to shoot yourself in the foot in the long run.
I want to commend DStahl and his team for all the work that he's done. I think they have done a commendable job in everything with STO.
Lets take a look at reality here people, we live in a society where money is necessary no matter how much we like what we do. In order to keep this game going, Cryptic is going to need money in order to make it work. All of you complain about content, it takes money to get that content to you people. You people want more content in less time? Well guess what boys and girls, it takes money. So if Cryptic is trying to raise revenue to make things work for you guys. Then I say go for it.
To all of you who are so fanatical about this P2W which I have seen very little evidence with the new Rhode Island ship, then I challenge to put your money where your mouth is and help Cryptic out by agreeing to give up your Lifetime memberships and agree to switch back to the Monthly Subscription model. That model will allow Cryptic to have a steady source of income and probably eliminate the need for such a model.
Truth is any MMO now a days with lifetime membership are going to run into this kind of problem with income in the long run. Thats why I hope that SWTOR decides NOT to go with a lifetime membership plan because while it's good for a initial rush of income in the beginning, your only going to shoot yourself in the foot in the long run.
I want to commend DStahl and his team for all the work that he's done. I think they have done a commendable job in everything with STO.
Post edited by Unknown User on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Once it becomes obtainable by in-game means it will become even more of a problem as it will make the Tier 2 Science Vessel "obsolete" and useless.
Life time members have the option of going back to a subscription plan?
i want new T6 or T5 Ships ... and MK XII XIII stuff ... and Ground and Space Skilltree ...seperated from each other ... and new Levels above VA 1 maybe to VA 10 for now
who play T1 till T4 Ships when he is already at VA Level ...
and i dont think its owerpowerd
Activated Features
Star Trek Online - Retail
Star Trek Online - Retail - Gold
Star Trek Online Public Test Shard
Startrek Online Lifetime Subscription
Star Trek Online - Digital Deluxe
Only one flaw.
For some reason the devs have got the idea stuck in their head that it's extra power, no matter to what degree, we want to buy.
The impression I got in all these discussions, is that most of us are heavy C-Store users and we WANT the C-Store there and support Cryptic.
It's just that we mainly wanted all those vanity items that provides us with different options, visually or gameplay.
But if the Options become nopay=weak vs. pay=strong that'S where their marketing people totally screwed up and misinterpet us.
I strongly believe that their income would remain steady if they kept putting interesting uniforms, ship skins,, convenience items and the like up there. And extra powered items like the RHode Island (which is just the first to come) won't increase their income one bit.
/10 kadis-kot
That this ship will be available via in-game methods in no way changes the fact it's overpowered and broken, dwarfing others of its tier. People need to stop using that like it justifies the ship being overpowered.
Not that I actually care about this whole controversy, but mathematics are mathematics; it doesnt matter where they are posted. Calling them "forum mathematics" isnt some kind of counter-argument unless you can actually disprove the math. Again though, this issue isnt even on my radar. I just object to bad arguments.
Naggy is right, though, the Rhode Island is mathematically better than the standard T2 Science ship. I wouldn't call it overpowered, but I'd say it's definitely better than what is available for free in terms of support vessels of that tier.
I don't think it's overpowered because it doesn't out-combat the T2 escort. It doesn't... out-cruiser... the T2 cruiser. Come to think of it, what the heck is the T2 cruiser good for? T2 sucks! (Not T2: Judgement Day, though).
On the other hand, eventually it will be available via ingame means, so I'm not going to cry about it. I do wish they would've straightened that out before releasing the Rhode Island, but hey, nothing about this has broken my game. At this point I just feel the whole "Pay to Win" debacle is unnecessary paranoia.
When the first TOR expansion is released, Greedo will shoot them in the foot first.
Yes,,,
Just like REDSIRTS have the option to Survive an Away Mission...
...NOT...
"Nonsense" isn't the word I would use. I'm not directly accusing Cryptic of going to the P2W model yet, and while I haven't tried the RI (and probably never will, I'm not much of a sci player) its specs compared to the other T2 sci ships sure made my eyebrows shoot up to my hairline. It also hasn't escaped my notice that a majority of all the new ships released have been C-Store only. Not all, for sure. But a definite majority.
Everybody knows Cryptic is a business and needs to be profitable to stay in business. But another part of that reality is that there are many other MMOs out there where a person just has to pay $15/month to get access to literally everything their game has to offer with no MT store whatsoever. There are also games out there where you can purchase goodies through their MT store without the $15/month access fee.
This is a very competitive market right now, and people will go to wherever they can get the biggest bang for their buck (especially in this economy). Right now, STO doesn't fit that criteria...at all. Cryptic is trying to do both by having its cake and eating it too, and in my opinion that alienates a good portion of its customer base. Cryptic needs to pick a side and stick with it by either going F2P or not releasing virtually EVERY new ship via the C-Store. It needs to either **** or get off the pot.
By far, this is one of the worst things you could have ever said. I bought the Digital Deluxe version, played in open beta and headstart, and bought the LTS as soon as it became available. Actually, I bought two DD's and LTS's, one for me and one for the missus. You can buy STO now for a fraction of what I paid for it. I'm not complaining, merely pointing out that between the two keys and two LTS's, Cryptic got around $600 of my money right out of the gate (not to mention the money both the missus and I have spent on the C-Store after that). I have already given Cryptic plenty of my hard earned dollars and I find your assertion distasteful.
I don't think Cryptic would offer the LTS if it weren't profitable for them to do so, especially if they do some kind of F2P/hybrid model.
But that goes back to Cryptic needing to either **** or get off the pot.
I would agree with this. I was rather vocal about how much of a disappointment S4 was for me due to all those crazy bugs it released. I took a break from STO for a while and came back for the Q weekend, and was absolutely blown away by how much smoother the game is, both in space and in shooter mode. Shooter mode was REALLY (and I mean REALLY) fun for me to play. I played on my VA's and my LC's, on my tacs and my engs, and no matter what I had an absolute blast. There are still a few bugs (I swear, my BOFFs are schizophrenic), but overall the game's playability has increased DRAMATICALLY for me.
I am honestly looking forward to the future content that Cryptic says is (finally) coming down the pike, and I too would like to commend Dstahl and his team for their hard work in squashing the bugs and making this game much more playable.
Actually, no. It's a fact that the RI is indeed more powerful then other Teir 2 ships. What's debatable is if the extras make it overpowered in the larger scheme of things. Once we have:
- More ships with these new console setups in game across the various ship tiers
- A way to earn these ships in game (OTHER than just the C-Store)
This whole issue will be moot. If they do not follow through with the promise to also make these new ships earnable in game by non C-Store means, then you'll have a valiid arguement.
Time will tell.
You are talking about hypothetical future changes. The guys on STOked made a good point in the last episode; its not IF those things DONT happen that this OP issue will be valid, its valid UNTIL those things happen. So from the moment the RI was released UNTIL they actually add another way to get it or add other ships like it, then the OP issue is valid. So that means right now it is valid, and it will be so UNTIL those hypothetical future things ACTUALLY happen.
I'm quite fond of defending Cryptic, I think the way they've handled feedback and player suggestions in the past, compared to many other games is excellent but they got the RI matter wrong. People make mistakes, learn and move on.
Now to the part quoted. Cash shops are a fact of life for MMO's now, if memory serves the monthly sunscription costs for quite a lot of games hasn't changed for a decade, factor in inflation and our games get cheaper year on year, so cash shops are necessary. HOWEVER P2W is in no way acceptable when you already have to pay to play, even in free to play games a P2W model has to be done very carefully. And I'm sorry but I'm just going ot be blunt about it, how dare you demand lifetimers give up what they've paid for? Cryptic offered the product of LTS's and they have to honour it, like everything else in the world you pay for.
I doubt thats really a problem for Cryptic's revenue, they seem to be doing quite well and all told, it seems PWE want to put more money into the game to make it a success, Cryptic are hiring again I noticed. They can make plenty of money from the c-store selling cosmetics and services in conjunction with LTS and monthly subs, and actually, some F2P get by quite comfortabley doing this without LTS or monthly subs.
The other thing. The RI is OP compared to ships of the same tier, so you are paying for power, even if only for a short while. As it stands now, thats not going to be a big problem for the game, the impact is limited. So long as they learn from the staunch opposition to paying for power, especially while the game is still pay to play then they can come away from this relatively unscathed. If they don't learn and we end up with tier 5.5 ships in the c-store, theres likely to be problems. That said, I still think it's a little early for doomsaying.
I'd just like to add how much I've bought so far (vast majority paid for from OB)
Star Trek Online - Preorder
Star Trek Online - Preorder
Star Trek Online - Digital Deluxe
Star Trek Online - Gold Edition
Star Trek Online - Retail
Star Trek Online - Digital Deluxe
Star Trek Online - Collector's Edition
Star Trek Online Lifetime Subscription
And that LTS was bought after 14 months subscription, and I use the c-store a fair bit, no one has any right to ask me to give it all up. Nor do they have a right to make me pay even more, just to keep up and play effectively.
As has been said so many times, it literally "doubles" the amount of science powers you can use AND gives you a special ability at "no penalty".
And even the low level science skills are the most diverse in the game letting you choose anything from dedbuffs, hull heals and resistance skills, Transfer Shield Strenght, etc.
Oh yes, and this is "my" support of Cryptic.
My faith in Dan and many of the other dev's (other than capnlogan, because he is Michaelangelo reincarated for ST) has fallen because of the:
*C-Store and its fluff, declared to be content by Dan and many hardcore fans (I don't like like the words fanobois and apologists)
*Pay to Win being insidiously, dishonestly, and borderline unethically implimented, and being lied to by some of the dev's
*I also don't like how many of the best posters on the forums have been permabanned, especially when many of them are Klingon players who made some very good threads.
Ya, this fall in faith isn't just one Cryptic employee's fault, and not just the development teams fault, but many of cryptics employees all put together.
So to be frank, Cryptic has insulted my intelligence, lied to my face, and played semantics to get away with it. I don't appreciate it, period.
I believe its possible for them to earn good graces again, but I see it to be doubtful as well. Maybe Blizzard's had the right idea on the relationship between dev's and players after all.... Sad day. And I used to defend them from people like me 6 months or less ago.
The Featured Episodes were excellent quality and became better with every series.
The added canon ships were greatly appreciated and necessary, and they also came with some more or less surprising features like the Saucer Seperation that was for a long time described as long way off, if at all.
I also think the ground combat revamp was a bold and necessary move, though I am not certain it was optimal, it definitely improved gameplay in PvE missions.
The Foundry is one of the most significant additions to this game ever.
But... I haven't seen a new Featured Episode in a few months.
Ground Combat 2.0 came with a lot of nasty bugs.
Feedbacks on bugs on Tribble seemed ignored, or at least not stopping them to reach Holodeck.
There has been no new PvP features since a long time. About the latest feature were the revamped PvP Queues with the Private Challenge match feature, but this was also coupled with breaking the Queues for weeks, and with removing an entire PvP game mode.
The Foundry was also offline several times since the Season 2 release.
And now the newest canon addition in ships feels like it comes with a "poison pill" - sure, you can get this sweet new ship (and there are more to come!), but we gonna break game balance for it so people actually go out and buy it, because we don't want people to have it as higher tier ship so they can play the ship for a longer time.
Apparantly the Atari->Perfect World Move cost the team a lot. I can thank them for sticking with the game and not running away. But I would have preferred if they had been honest about it from the start (but NDAs might have been against that), and I still think that some decisions are just plain wrong, and they cannot be excused by stress or money tightness alone.
Actually, yes, the entire argument/complaint about the Rhode Island is clearly and concisely expressed in your own words. The addition of a means of in-game acquisition will not invalidate the Pay-to-Win argument, rather, if the means of acquisition are this new currency (Dilithium?) which will be sourced by real cash transactions, the argument will be reinforced.
The Rhode Island is a symptom of a potentially greater disease, which was long-promised not to be included in the C-Store. Even if not overwhelmingly overpowered, the Rhode Island, by your own admission, Al Rivera's admission, and an honest assessment of the ship's capabilities, is undeniably more powerful than all other counterparts at its Tier, and it is this unfortunate precedent, which fuels the concern and negative feedback.
I am in agreement with Captain_Collier, that the introduction of demonstrably more powerful items/ship/abilities in a MT store, in a game that, as yet, remains subscription-based, is unacceptable and will only lead to a loss of faith and a loss of support for Cryptic.
I do appreciate all that the Dev Team has done in the past year, in sticking things out, even though they were apparently much tighter than anyone let on; I want to continue supporting them as they move forward, now under Perfect World's auspices, as they get the machinery of development moving again; however, there must be a level of faith and trust between the company and its customers, and the precedent that may have been established by the introduction of the Rhode Island is a violation of that trust, and, as paying customers, we must communicate our dissatisfaction, so that bond might be re-established as we all move forward.
-Big Red
i read that comment and laughed so hard i just feel sorry for you why would i ever give more money to something that is now free for me the whole idea is stupid
seconded, I want my T5/T6 Connie (been watching TMP's and u cant beat a classic, even if she is old)
I have actually upgrade my connie with VA tech, and been taking her into deep space encounters against Romulans, and the B'Tran player, mostly on my own, and she does quite well (suprisngly)
This says it quite well. I can't figure out if it's ignorance or dirty business. I'm not sure that it's mutually exclusive either:(.
They can down play the size of the forum users, the technicalities of wether the CStore is considered content or fluff and if these ships are in anyway overpowered or not. It doesnt make us stupid. We can see thru the lies (the ones that care to) and we can see the insults and jests where they are. To believe that we pay you for this game must make us ignorant and uninformed just shows your arrogance and lack of common sense.
The math is there. If you cant or dont care to dispute it with math of your own (devs and those supporters) then well, youve failed to make a standing argument.
Well spoken and reflects my feelings for behaviour for Cryptic since the weekend.
Regarding all the negativity and the posters being given a "vacation" from the forums:
At the point that any player becomes emotionally invested in a game or entertainment product to the point of denigrating or trashing other human beings - the developers and producers of that game, because the developers or producers of that product have made choices or decisions that the player doesn't like, then the player has crossed the line from fun and entertainment They should be given a "vacation" if they can not act mature enough and/or take a "vacation" on their own. STO is optional entertainment that no one is forcing anyone to play.
I'm not saying that players or posters shouldn't voice their likes / dislikes regarding the game. Feedback and constructive criticism are encouraged by Cryptic in these forums. But those should be made objectively and without emotional undertones.
The developers of STO make many and varied business decisions about THEIR game all of the time.
The consumer, player or poster only has one decision to make - play STO or find other fun enjoyable entertainment elsewhere.
This thread should have remained a positive note. It should not have been turned into an argument amongst the community or another thread attacking a decision that's been made and implemented.
Well, as part of the OP's challenge to give up the whole lifetime thing and go back to a sub model (see quote of the OP below), It peaked my curiosity. I didn't really think anyone would, or could.
So, would you please offer a serious reply?
the fun thing about Mathematics and Statistics is it can be manipulated to serve anyone's point of interest. one side of the equation is still equal to the other side. all you have to do is keep one side from showing.
This is how government's try to scare people. "The Crime rate is going up!" How is it going up? Looking at the other factors, More people are calling the police (thanks to cellphones), Police are able to respond faster and thus catch more crimals than before. So gathering data on "People arrested by police in the last 60 days" will equal "The Crime rate is going up"
Just because you have numbers doesn't mean a thing. Anyone can use numbers to theorycraft, but like all War Experiments (its easy to shoot a rifle on a firing range because no one is shooting back at you), the real test is the Field Test. The RI in PvE doesn't yeild that much of an advantage and with PvP well it's a new ship. People were screaming over the Dreadnaught Galaxy when it first came out because no one knew it's weakness "ZOMG Cloak AND Dual Cannonz I cantz beatz it!" once more people start fighting it the quicker they will learn "its weak on X Y Z kill it there!" it won't be as major as it is now.
Statistics, yes. Mathematics, no. That is why I said mathematics, not statistics. Believe me, if I could have manipulated mathematics to have better grades in school I would have
You can still change mathematics. You're teacher could have rounded differently. a 89.4445 will round to a 89.445 which will round to a 89.45 and again to 89.50 to yield 90, an A.