test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

[Totally Pointless] Question: Antigrav or wheels/track

2»

Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    The Mortar!
    I forgot the Mortar!:o
    The APC should have one since its purpose would be to support its troops against infantry, both with its gun and a mortar.

    It would give both vehicles a primary and secondary weapon and clearly define what they are supposed to be used against.

    As for the tracks vs wheels thing:
    The WW2 era BT-2 tank managed 100 kph on the road with tracks.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/BT_-_5.jpg

    In addition since its wheels were so large, it could also continue to drive without its tracks.
    The concept is called a christie suspension.
    It had the disadvantage of unfortunate vibrations which made aiming while moving difficult.
    Probably not a problem in the future.

    The modern-day tracked BMP-3 transports achieve up to 72 kph while the wheeled BTR-80 can get to 80.
    However the BMP-3 is also 5 tons heavier than the 13 ton BTR-80.

    There is also another possible benefit to using tracks:
    the wheels can be armored, like on the Mathilda II Tank.

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/MatildaII.jpg

    which would also allow another set of beam strips to be added, firing sideways.:p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Oh I know how fast tracked vehicles can be - I worked in a German combat training center for two years and those beasts regularly crossed the forest roads with next to no warning to any vehicles on them. :D

    Still, I'd expect Klingon vehicles to be heavy and bullyish, and wheels may offset the disadvantage in speed.

    I shall admit I'm a fan of the Mako, though, and accordingly biased in terms of preferences. :p
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    What you have to keep in mind is that for the most part away missions are like special forces teams, they go in, do the job and get out. A vehicle would be nice to have but it takes up a lot of space, the argo was used because b4 was spread out over a large area, even then it required a specially equipped shuttle to get it from ship to ground instead of just transporting it.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Oh yeah, I'd actually go so far as to say that it makes no sense for Starfleet at all. Even the applications for the KDF are limited, but it could be immensely useful for control of a subjugated population or to "speed up" conquest as an auxiliary instrument and/or when being deployed against a technologically inferior culture.

    I really don't see anything like "tank battles" happening in Trek. Aerial superiority, pinpoint targeting by orbiting warships and matter/energy transporters for ground forces have pretty much rendered such doctrines outdated. Technology has quite simply progressed too far for contemporary conventional warfare.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    mondo80 wrote: »
    What you have to keep in mind is that for the most part away missions are like special forces teams, they go in, do the job and get out. A vehicle would be nice to have but it takes up a lot of space, the argo was used because b4 was spread out over a large area, even then it required a specially equipped shuttle to get it from ship to ground instead of just transporting it.

    HMM, seems to me like you missed the purpose of these vehicles.
    I tried to explain that at the beginning of the thread more thoroughly.
    They are not intended for your standard away missions.
    They are intended for missions that span weeks or where transporters are unavaiable yet you know you have to travel large distances.

    In Star Trek V Kirk's team would have had to walk through the desert to reach its target without the horses they captured.

    On AR-558, no side had transporters or communications or sensors.
    The JH marched through a canyon and then attacked people entrenched behind rocks.
    Combat was reduced to the level of pre-WW1.

    Same was true with the Klingons in "Nor the Battle To The Strong".
    As soon as the high-tech stuff fails it's down to almost nothing.
    And I predict in an actual war (and that's what we're talkig about here: Klingons at war with the Federation and the Romulans, trying to conquer their planets) with someone at least as technologically sophisticated as the Klingons themselves they have a choice.
    Either have your advanced equipment blocked by jammers and fight in 19th century infantry battles, march long distances (imagine going from one continent to another to capture an important industrial center) or travel there with vehicles at several times the speed of marching soldiers, easily traversing obstackles that would slow down the troops immensely.
    Be rested before the attack, get fire support from mobile mortar launchers and large disruptor guns.
    An armed and armored vehicle would also have a much better chance to defend against an aireal attack than a group of soldiers standing in the open, getting fried by a lerge caliber plasma grenade.
    Again you can reduce the amount of soldiers you actually have to send in.
    Either send a large contingent of unprotected infantrymen or send a small but well-equipped, fast striketeam.

    These things are not intended for exploration missions, they are for the war that's supposed to be going on even though noone notices it because it has been neglected.
    I find it odd Cryptic put us in a war scenarion but shies away from actually giving us warfare materiel to fight it with.
    Except for the carrier nothing we have seems to be intended for this kind of purpose.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Update:

    I've had a few hours today to make my very first ground vehicle.
    Well it's not entirely what I had intended, the turret needs to be reworked and the weapons are obviously still missing.
    The water-propulsion is still missing and I'm still considering the addition of armor at the sides to provide protection for the wheels....
    Anyway here's what I got so far, even though it's not much:

    http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2112/kdflt1.jpg

    http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/7866/kdflt2.jpg

    http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/4213/kdflt3.jpg

    http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5893/kdflt4.jpg

    http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1047/kdflt5.jpg
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited September 2011
    Well, the overwhelming responses show there is no interest in this whatsoever.
    I will probably keep working on my ideas but I see reason to bother you folks with monologues about something you don't want to see anyway.

    So here's for now the final version of the combat scout vehicle.
    I redid the tracks and the turret and added the weapons:
    A disruptor gun in the turret as well as a micro-torpedo launcher, three beam strips in the hull, two forward and one rearward.
    I also included the rear openings for the water-jet propulsion system for amphibious operations.

    http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1185/kdfltrev31.jpg

    http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5366/kdfltrev32.jpg

    http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/1320/kdfltrev33.jpg

    http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/5332/kdfltrev34.jpg

    http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9273/kdfltrev35.jpg
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Pointless thread, supplemental entry.

    Since I'm a rather stubborn individual I've worked on the vehicles a bit more and condensed it down to a bare minimum of four vehicles.
    Three for actual campaigns, one for garrison purposes.

    After reading some more about what kind of vehicles are actually useful in all kinds of terrain (or lack therof) I decided to completely omit any kind of heavy vehicles from the KDF ground force list.
    Wars like those in Korea, Vietnam or Afghanistan have shown that when the area is muddy or rocky, anything too far above 20-30 tons is probably going to be problematic to use.
    In addition anything in that area is going to lack amphibious capability (adressing the "lack of terrain" issue).

    So from left to right:

    Infantry Assault Vehicle
    Length: 7.7m
    Width: 3.2m
    Height: 2.6m
    Weight: 25-30 tons

    Urban Enforcement Vehicle
    Length: 6.18m
    Width: 3.29m
    Height: 2.37m
    Weight: around 15-18 tons

    Combat Scout Vehicle
    Length: 6.45m (with gun fwd)
    Width: 2.88m
    Height: 2.16m
    Weight: around 20 tons

    Ground Assault Vehicle [shwon in closed state]
    Length: 6.12m
    Width: 2.9m
    Height: 1.84m
    Weight: around 25 tons

    http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1448/kdfvehicles004.jpg
    http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5061/kdfvehicles001.jpg
    http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/2696/kdfvehicles002.jpg
    http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/834/kdfvehicles003.jpg

    What they all have in common:
    They have their engines inside the wheels, they have their own shuttle-grade life support system, they are amphibious with high-sea capability and all have a vector-thrust water-jet propulsion system.
    Maximum speed on water and on land would probably be pretty much the same (around 70-80 kph)

    Such capabilites are not totally unrealistic, the Chinese Type-63a Amphibious Light Tank with a weight of 20 tons is armed with a 105mm gun which can be fired while afloat, has a road speed of 75 kph, a swim speed of 28 kph and can operate on an ocean (unlike the PT-76, which can only cross rivers and be launched from landing-craft close to the shore).
    So if the Chinese can build it in the 1990's the Klingons of the future can probably build it a whole lot better.

    The Infantry Assault Vehicle is essentailly a Klingon IFV model with an operating crew of 3 (commander, driver, gunner) and capable of carrying 8 troops with fully enclosed environment suits into battle and support them during their operations.
    http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/4756/kdfinfantryassault004.jpg
    http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/6932/kdfinfantryassault001.jpg
    Since it's somewhat larger than the other vehicles I've given it an extra pair of water-jet engines to compensate for its increased mass.
    http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5894/kdfinfantryassault005.jpg
    It is armed with a Disruptor High-Density Beam Gun intended equally to fight infantry and light vehicles and a Heavy Infantry Mortar capable of firing either Photon- or Plasma Grenades to support its troops.
    http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/3035/kdfinfantryassault003.jpg
    http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2268/kdfinfantryassault002.jpg


    The Urban Enforcement Vehicle is based on the same chassis as the Comabt Scout and the Ground Assault Vehicle but has an enlarged superstructure and employs the same turret as the Infantry Assault Vehicle.
    http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8840/kdfurbanenforcer006.jpg
    However it is not fitted with tracks since it is intended primarily for operations within urban areas where extended use of tracks would wear down the roads to a far greater extend.
    http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/783/kdfurbanenforcer004.jpg
    It serves as a light troop transport and patrol vehicle for military police and local garrison forces on Klingon colonies and occupied worlds.
    http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/5894/kdfinfantryassault005.jpg
    Unlike the other models it does not employ high-tech long-range weaponry but relies on simpler equipment to reduce costs and increase ease of maintenance.
    http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/7443/kdfurbanenforcer002.jpg
    It does make up for these deficiencies by employing a larger number of those weapons instead.
    Armaments consist of a Disruptor Dual Pulse Guns and a Multi Grenade Launcher firing grenades identical in explosive force to those used by standard infantry.
    http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2739/kdfurbanenforcer003.jpg
    However since it is a multi-launcher it can either fire grenades at a very high rate or fire a whole spread of 7 grenades at once to affect a rather large area at once.
    Grenade type varies based on operation the Urban Enforcer is used in.
    On routine missions and for crowd control it employs Anesthizine gas grenades, if the planet were actually invaded the launcher would fire Photon Grenades instead.


    The Combat Scout Vehicle is essentially a modern Light Tank with highly sophisticated stealth and sensor equipment allowing it to spot enemies at a distance without being detected itself.
    Its primary functions are: Scouting, disruption of enemy troop movements, support and escort allied troop movements.
    Even though the nature of its armament does not require a loader any more it does have a crew of 4: commander, driver, gunner and sensor operator.
    To complement its ability to detect enemies at long range it is armed witha Disruptor Long Range (Sniper) Gun whose main purpose is to fight vehicles, not infantry.
    Against heavy vehicles and aircraft it is also armed with a Micro-Torpedo Launcher.
    http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/2712/kdfcombatscout001.jpg
    http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/1564/kdfcombatscout002.jpg
    http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/3065/kdfcombatscout003.jpg
    http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5148/kdfcombatscout004.jpg


    The Ground Assault Vehicle is a concession to the light weight of the other vehicles employed: it carries heavy weaponry in a casematte-style mount and is equally intended to support the other troops with direct and indirect fire.
    It has a crew of 3 and a rather low profile since it lacks a turret of any kind.
    On the "group picture" it is shown in its closed state.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/8348/kdfgroundassault001.jpg
    To keep it capable of operating in water at hight speeds without any interference the armaments are concealed behind armor plates that are retracted during combat.
    http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8228/kdfgroundassault002.jpg
    the forward 2 plates are completely retracted into the hull while to topmost is simply moved back.
    The equipment itself is actually not sensitive to water and can be fired while the vehicle is afloat however when the plates are retracted the increased water resistance will force it to slow down.
    http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/1268/kdfgroundassault003.jpg
    Armament consists of a 157mm Coil-Howitzer for indirect fire capable of firing Heavy Photon Shells against static defenses and Heavy Plasma Shells against entrenched infantry forces.
    For Direct fire support it is also fitted with a Disruptor Pulsewave Assault Gun.
    http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3113/kdfgroundassault004.jpg

    [Note to Weaponry: I've used terms that should make it pretty clear how such weapons would work in STO.
    They were chosen so they would represent the functions and capabilites if the vehicles in question and to resemble those used by the players in ground combat, so the High Density Beam Gun works just like the High Density Beam Rifle, it would just have a higher range and firepower compared to those used by infantry not sure how much though]
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    In star trek V, kirk had to lure the guards away from the cantina, to rescue the hostages inside, they disguised themselves as the guards to get in.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    mondo80 wrote: »
    In star trek V, kirk had to lure the guards away from the cantina, to rescue the hostages inside, they disguised themselves as the guards to get in.

    :confused:
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Maybe I should elaborate:

    I am at a loss for words, what do you wish to say?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I say one wheel , a hover generator, a single tread and a mucuss secreting apendage, just to cover all the bases.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    I say one wheel , a hover generator, a single tread and a mucuss secreting apendage, just to cover all the bases.

    Sounds like you're describing a Dalek

    http://images.wikia.com/tardis/images/e/ee/Caan_open.jpg
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    mister_dee wrote:

    purely coincidental, I swear.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    purely coincidental, I swear.

    not the least bit in a subconcious way?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    I imagine the KDF might only have one or two different vehicle hulls.

    They would be moderately armored but fitted with attachment points to quickly up armor them and with multiple modular "slots" so that an engineering team could quickly refit them to do everything from recon to heavy combat.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    My Friend, I had hoped to have achieved that with the vehicles I posted on the previous page.
    Same goes for the propulsion system: use either tracks with wheels that contain their own engine, or use tyred wheels, again with the engines inside them.
    Or ditch the wheels altogether and use a pair antigrav emitters (even though I've got an idea for a "leap mine" that reacts to antigrav fields so no hope of evadng those)
    As you can see I also made at least one of the turret modulars so it can be fitted with different weapons (within certain limits) and onto diferent vehicles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    mister_dee wrote:
    not the least bit in a subconcious way?

    OH No! We don't talk to him when making such decisions!
    Very scary grumpy dude. Best let him be.
    mister_dee wrote:
    (even though I've got an idea for a "leap mine" that reacts to antigrav fields so no hope of evadng those)
    .
    I assume the sensor tech targets nearby Magnetic resonance (for lack of a proper techno-babble term) and locks/guides itself to target before detonation.
    That may ahve some real world applications, if some of the news articles I seen hold true after R&D testing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »
    OH No! We don't talk to him when making such decisions!
    Very scary grumpy dude. Best let him be.

    So diving into the subconcious we need a breather and a really really big harpoon to make sure we get out again.
    Sounds like I'd feel right at home.:)
    Roach wrote: »
    I assume the sensor tech targets nearby Magnetic resonance (for lack of a proper techno-babble term) and locks/guides itself to target before detonation.
    That may ahve some real world applications, if some of the news articles I seen hold true after R&D testing.

    Pretty much.
    My idea is that there would be a cusion under the vehicle in question, consisting of whatever kind of field you need to defy gravity and that it would be detectable "looking up" from the ground.
    So all you actually need is a sensor that's pointed upwards watching for such a cushion.
    When the cusion reaches a certain "plateau" in intensity, meaning the field that is dirctly under vehicle would on top of the mine, you ignite a nice little solid-fuel rocket that propels the mine up to maybe 3 meters (10 feet) into the air directly under vehicle. It smashes into its underbelly and...well so close to its intended target all you need is the old fashioned detector-detonators RL-tank mines already have.;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    mister_dee wrote:
    So diving into the subconcious we need a breather and a really really big harpoon to make sure we get out again.
    Sounds like I'd feel right at home.:)

    You may wish to talk to my therapist before putting a toe in to test those waters.....


    Pretty much.
    My idea is that there would be a cusion under the vehicle in question, consisting of whatever kind of field you need to defy gravity and that it would be detectable "looking up" from the ground.
    So all you actually need is a sensor that's pointed upwards watching for such a cushion.
    When the cusion reaches a certain "plateau" in intensity, meaning the field that is dirctly under vehicle would on top of the mine, you ignite a nice little solid-fuel rocket that propels the mine up to maybe 3 meters (10 feet) into the air directly under vehicle. It smashes into its underbelly and...well so close to its intended target all you need is the old fashioned detector-detonators RL-tank mines already have.;)

    Ah.
    I was thinking that in luie of the recent(lol) news that some militaries are experimenting (have been actually) in forcefield/EMF technologies as a means of defense against attack that the idea of a ordinance that tracks the frequency of said defenses for targeting purposes would have a positve effect in combat.

    Regardless I love the ideas you are attempting to bring to STO ground combat on a larger scale.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    Roach wrote: »

    You may wish to talk to my therapist before putting a toe in to test those waters.....

    Still got all his limbs intact I hope.
    Roach wrote: »
    Ah.
    I was thinking that in luie of the recent(lol) news that some militaries are experimenting (have been actually) in forcefield/EMF technologies as a means of defense against attack that the idea of a ordinance that tracks the frequency of said defenses for targeting purposes would have a positve effect in combat.

    Regardless I love the ideas you are attempting to bring to STO ground combat on a larger scale.

    Actually not sure how I could implement that.
    But it sounds interesting, do you havy any ideas?

    Well, I've employed a highly sophisticated drawing technique to show what I've got in mind:

    http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2294/leapmine.jpg

    the advantage of this idea is that it does not depend on the vehicle to actually use antigrav.
    Since it has a conventional detonator as well it can be used against tracked tanks just as effectively.

    Thanks, this is getting more and more interesting.:)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited October 2011
    mister_dee wrote:
    Still got all his limbs intact I hope.
    Scar tissue is a good reminder to keep aware of your soruondings at all times. :P

    Actually not sure how I could implement that.
    But it sounds interesting, do you havy any ideas?

    Well, I've employed a highly sophisticated drawing technique to show what I've got in mind:

    http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2294/leapmine.jpg

    the advantage of this idea is that it does not depend on the vehicle to actually use antigrav.
    Since it has a conventional detonator as well it can be used against tracked tanks just as effectively.

    Thanks, this is getting more and more interesting.:)

    hmmmm. let me absorb and digest the idea for a while....
Sign In or Register to comment.