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Little help for KDF canon and lore
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Okay so, I'm working on a couple missions at present, and both feature the KDF as the predominant antagonist* - and I want to make sure I don't do anything that would make someone facepalm in my direction by having Klingons do things they wouldn't generally do. >.< So... I'm asking for help from people who I suspect might actually know what they're talking about.
I want to note up front: I've watched every Trek series except Enterprise; so I've got a good overview of the Klingons - I know the basics well enough... my concerns are a bit more specific. >.<
I'll also add: I'm OK with information that is soft canon or even widely held fanon, in fact I strongly suspect that's the only place we're going to be able to get most of this stuff. (The latter, to be considered, needs to be something that while never addressed in anything official, is both logical and a commonly held belief among Klingon fans)
Klingons and ground combat:
1) Ambush: I know Klingons are fine with using this in space via cloaking... but what about on the ground? I know that might sound ridiculous, but in the back of my head I seem to remember Klingons talking about fighting face to face an awful lot... Which struck me weird at the time with the cloak thing; but now I'm wondering if their standards are different in fights between vessels and fights between ground forces?
2) What kind of tactics do you think the Klingons use on the ground? The shows tend to be bad about infantry combat in-general (what little we see); so I don't want to go with what we see there really. I don't want the KDF to look like a horde of orcs or the zerg with disruptors or something.
3) Teamwork - this goes with 2: We all know Klingons love glory - but to what degree do you think the average Klingon is willing to put glory for the Empire above glory for themselves? An example here would be something like this:
There are two targets: A well defended position on a hill, and a poorly defended but crucially positioned village. Orders are to take the village - but would it be reasonable to expect a commander might break off and go after the hilltop position because it would be a more glorious battle? Or is that ridiculous?
4) Unit designations - Do we have a clue what the Klingons refer to their infantry units as? I'm talking things like fire team, squad, section, company, battalion, brigade, etc... ? (Also for that matter, do we have any idea of how these formations are set up?)
We know they have Brigadier Generals... but I suspect rather strongly that that title doesn't really mean what it means in the real world, so I don't want to assume there even is such a thing as a Klingon brigade.
5) What degree of integration do you think there is within the KDF between the various species? STO canon seems to indicate that the various species are loosely allied and largely work independently. (You don't encounter Orions and Klingons together a whole lot, for example) However that contradicts the idea that as a player captain you are, regardless of species, a member of the KDF.
The various levels of integration I'm thinking of are laid out like this:
Totally integrated = units of mixed species members - a Lethean fighting next to a Gorn and an Orion, for example. This is what the backstory almost seems to indicate; but isn't at all what we see in-game.
Semi-integrated = units are all part of the overall KDF, but a Gorn unit is still entirely Gorn. (For an example: A Klingon unit being overwhelmed might be able to expect aid from a Gorn attack saur unit; but they are still two separate units.)
Tightly allied = Generally work separately toward the same goals, but occassionally cooperate directly for important operations.
Loosely allied = Work alone toward the same general goal; but rarely if ever directly aid each other or even plan operations together. This is what we usually see in missions in STO.
I realize this one isn't one that can be easily answered by canon itself; so for this one I'm mostly asking for impressions and thoughts.
6) Retreat - We know Klingons hate retreating... we also know that they will do it on occasion. The question is; when do you feel it's appropriate for Klingons to retreat?
I know Gowron only retreated from DS9 after Worf quoted Kahless to him: "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." - but that situation was kind of unusual and Gowron's pride was directly on the line (not to mention his strength in the eyes of his warriors).
So... at what point to Klingons decide that it's better to fall back and have another shot at victory later? Having them fight to the death all the time would be strategic suicide after all (and would violate the above quote); but on the other hand they are rather proud...
Likewise: What about their allies? It's one thing for Klingons to expect themselves to go to absurd lengths to stay on the battlefield; but to what extend would they hold say... the Naussicans to the same standard?
Space:
1) Klingon ship tactics: What do we know beyond "Come out of cloak and shoot them".
2) Same question about integration, this time on a fleet based scale; pertaining largely to mixing various species ships within the same fleet. IE: Would a Varanus and a Marauder be out of place in a fleet otherwise made up of Klingon ships? That kind of thing.
Anyway, that's all I have for now; I appreciate any help you can give!
*If they turn out well and get a good reception; I'll probably do KDF versions of both. It's a big project though so I don't want to commit to that unless I know people generally like what I've done.
I want to note up front: I've watched every Trek series except Enterprise; so I've got a good overview of the Klingons - I know the basics well enough... my concerns are a bit more specific. >.<
I'll also add: I'm OK with information that is soft canon or even widely held fanon, in fact I strongly suspect that's the only place we're going to be able to get most of this stuff. (The latter, to be considered, needs to be something that while never addressed in anything official, is both logical and a commonly held belief among Klingon fans)
Klingons and ground combat:
1) Ambush: I know Klingons are fine with using this in space via cloaking... but what about on the ground? I know that might sound ridiculous, but in the back of my head I seem to remember Klingons talking about fighting face to face an awful lot... Which struck me weird at the time with the cloak thing; but now I'm wondering if their standards are different in fights between vessels and fights between ground forces?
2) What kind of tactics do you think the Klingons use on the ground? The shows tend to be bad about infantry combat in-general (what little we see); so I don't want to go with what we see there really. I don't want the KDF to look like a horde of orcs or the zerg with disruptors or something.
3) Teamwork - this goes with 2: We all know Klingons love glory - but to what degree do you think the average Klingon is willing to put glory for the Empire above glory for themselves? An example here would be something like this:
There are two targets: A well defended position on a hill, and a poorly defended but crucially positioned village. Orders are to take the village - but would it be reasonable to expect a commander might break off and go after the hilltop position because it would be a more glorious battle? Or is that ridiculous?
4) Unit designations - Do we have a clue what the Klingons refer to their infantry units as? I'm talking things like fire team, squad, section, company, battalion, brigade, etc... ? (Also for that matter, do we have any idea of how these formations are set up?)
We know they have Brigadier Generals... but I suspect rather strongly that that title doesn't really mean what it means in the real world, so I don't want to assume there even is such a thing as a Klingon brigade.
5) What degree of integration do you think there is within the KDF between the various species? STO canon seems to indicate that the various species are loosely allied and largely work independently. (You don't encounter Orions and Klingons together a whole lot, for example) However that contradicts the idea that as a player captain you are, regardless of species, a member of the KDF.
The various levels of integration I'm thinking of are laid out like this:
Totally integrated = units of mixed species members - a Lethean fighting next to a Gorn and an Orion, for example. This is what the backstory almost seems to indicate; but isn't at all what we see in-game.
Semi-integrated = units are all part of the overall KDF, but a Gorn unit is still entirely Gorn. (For an example: A Klingon unit being overwhelmed might be able to expect aid from a Gorn attack saur unit; but they are still two separate units.)
Tightly allied = Generally work separately toward the same goals, but occassionally cooperate directly for important operations.
Loosely allied = Work alone toward the same general goal; but rarely if ever directly aid each other or even plan operations together. This is what we usually see in missions in STO.
I realize this one isn't one that can be easily answered by canon itself; so for this one I'm mostly asking for impressions and thoughts.
6) Retreat - We know Klingons hate retreating... we also know that they will do it on occasion. The question is; when do you feel it's appropriate for Klingons to retreat?
I know Gowron only retreated from DS9 after Worf quoted Kahless to him: "Destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory. And ending a battle to save an Empire is no defeat." - but that situation was kind of unusual and Gowron's pride was directly on the line (not to mention his strength in the eyes of his warriors).
So... at what point to Klingons decide that it's better to fall back and have another shot at victory later? Having them fight to the death all the time would be strategic suicide after all (and would violate the above quote); but on the other hand they are rather proud...
Likewise: What about their allies? It's one thing for Klingons to expect themselves to go to absurd lengths to stay on the battlefield; but to what extend would they hold say... the Naussicans to the same standard?
Space:
1) Klingon ship tactics: What do we know beyond "Come out of cloak and shoot them".
2) Same question about integration, this time on a fleet based scale; pertaining largely to mixing various species ships within the same fleet. IE: Would a Varanus and a Marauder be out of place in a fleet otherwise made up of Klingon ships? That kind of thing.
Anyway, that's all I have for now; I appreciate any help you can give!
*If they turn out well and get a good reception; I'll probably do KDF versions of both. It's a big project though so I don't want to commit to that unless I know people generally like what I've done.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Otherwise: Kill/destroy everything that moves, loot the corpses/debris and repeat.
In your first question: NO a Kllingon would not cloak during ground combat, he may hide take cover to ambush but not cloak. Remember what K'mpec told Picard in reunion. "The Klingon who kills without showing his face has no honor, he would be capable of anything, even war with the federation"
Look at the following two books to help you The Klingon Way, and the klingon dictionary.
Both will show you klingon attitudes in many ways.
Also you can go to on of our websites Klingonspace. I have photos of myself there as a klingon as do many others, there is also much information there.
And finally if you really are a fan of Klingons please: join Klingon Assault Group or Klingon Alliance
International. These are both great organizations and have many knowledgeable people and resources.
In fact a great many of us play STO on the Klingon side.
Qapla' Batlh Je! (success and honor)
Marok
The second is that Klingons love the visceral thrill of battle - hence the whole "face-to-face" thing. They want to see their enemies die, they want their enemies to know who killed them. Shooting someone in the back with a sniper rifle while cloaked - it's just not the same... Some will call this "honor."
Third, life is cheap. It's always better if someone else dies, of course, but Klingons will readily throw their own lives away - if the act is likely to be remembered and honored.
So cloaks (ship or personal) - not a problem. Close-range ambush, absolutely - but expect the rank-and-file to drop cloak with the first attack. Ambush from afar, sure, but there'll be grumbling in the ranks. Attacking a position of obvious strength when a weaker and more strategic target is available - that shows a lack of skill (unless the commander knows something that his superiors don't...). Retreating - depends on whether it gains an obvious tactical advantage. If not, Klingons are likely to prefer to fight to the death.
Integration I can't really speak to, but I'd imagine alien specialists would be more tolerated than alien grunts. The exception might be special mission squads, where everyone's a specialist anyway, or units with very strong leadership.
BTW, please note that this is all my opinion, but is the basis for how I play my Klingon characters.
I would suggest the Book series I.K.S. Gorkon, I can dig some fo the info out for you when I have time (at work atm) as I have them on my Kindle. The rank of all the warriors (the ground assualt guys) would be a bekk. I do not recall all of it really. but again I can look it up if you do not want to buy the book yourself.
As for you situation of personal glory over the glory for the empire, to me it is much the same as a human commander would be. It depends on the situation, if the Klingon Commander sees something that his uppers do not and pulls it off it could be a good outcome, but on the other hand to disobey an order is not honorable either. Again depends on the commanders and the setting, Klingons are not stupid and promote intelligent decision making in their warriors same as any other would.
Ground ambushes are fine, think of it like this: If an enemy is foolish enough to be caught unawares, then they deserve to be ambushed. However, Honor requires that the enemy have a fighting chance once the ambush is under way. If, for example, an enemy is walking about unarmed, an honorable Klingon will not ambush them, as they have no means by which they can die honorably, armed and defending themselves, if, however, that same enemy picks up a weapon, even a knife, they became fair prey.
On the ground, Klingons charge into battle, however, their tactics might seem mobbish or half-hazard, but they are not, a devastating frontal assault from an onrush of intimidating warriors is a psychological tactic, demoralize the enemy, make the cowards amongst them run, and face the bravest of them as equal warriors on the field of battle. This tactic also has the advantage of catching most space-born enemies unawaers, as they most likely expect ranged weapon combat, hand to hand combat with warriors who fight with melee weapons as well as ranged is something unexpected, and that works to the Klingons advantage.
It is dishonorable for a Klingon to abandon his fellows to gain personal glory, so dishonorable that any departure from ones duties overshadows and eliminates any perceived glory or honor that the departure might otherwise give.
There may be individual exceptions, say, if the tide of battle is with the Empire, and the battles last objective is near at hand, and there are more than enough warriors to accomplish it, but some enemies are fleeing, a Klingon may be tempted to leave the final objective to his fellows in order to prevent the escape of legitimate military resources and personnel, but, they would surely inform their superior of their intent, and gain their go-ahead before doing so.
I had to get my husbands help here, as he has mentioned several times as I explain the KDF that their rank structure and organization is similar: In the US Marines, there are four ranks of Generals, Brigadier Generals (one-star), Major Generals (two-star), Lieutenant Generals (three-star), and (plain, four-star) Generals. The titles do not confer exactly what they have command over, but rather how they rank in comparison to each other as officers.
As to unit organization, he again has input: Marines are organized into several tiers, though the precise numbers can vary from unit to unit depending upon available personnel: on average, 4 Marines form a Fire Team, 3 Fire Teams form a Squad, and 3 Squads form a Platoon, 3 Platoons form a Company, 3 companies form a Battalion, 3 Battalions form a Regiment (sometimes called a Brigade), 3 Regiments form a Division, and currently the Marine Corps is made up of 3 Divisions, this does not include the various administration and support units.
I would imagine the KDF is organized similarly as far as units go, as we've heard mentions of all these units in canon from Gowron or Martok at differing times.
My impression most closely matches up with your Semi-integrated, from what I understand, the various military and police forces that made up the armed forces of the Gorn, Orion, Lethean, and Nausicaans were folded into the KDF, but, their leadership was replaced with Klingons, so while we may see a unit of Gorn, with a Gorn field commander, it's likely that that Gorn reports to a Klingon, similarly, we may see Nausicaan ships with Nausicaan crews, but the one giving the orders to that Nausicaan Captain is likely a Klingon.
I think the Klingons have a highly pragmatic view of retreat, if they can still accomplish their goal, but doing so will cost them their lives, they will fight on, if the goal is out of reach, saving the Warriors under your command in order for them to fight for the Empire another day takes precedence.
I don't think the Klingons would hold other races to the exact same standards, after all, they're not Klingons, but, they would still expect them to follow orders, even if those orders mean their deaths.
Klingon ship tactics seem to differ based on what kinds of ships are involved, a massive assault (on a planet or Station, for example), for example, would not be undertaken by a wing of BoPs, but by a group of Battle Cruisers, with BoPs tasked as escorts to protect the Battle Cruisers as they go about the assault.
More indirect actions, raids, sorties, etc.. Are relegated to BoP Captains, as they have the mobility to get in, do damage, capture resources, and get out quickly.
Since there are no canon (or soft canon) works I am aware of that deal with Raptor tactics, I am forced to assume they act as alternatives to BoP.
I see the KDF as being extremely cunning with their fleet make-ups:
@Katic - Especially big thanks to you; that was very informative!
*edit*
And I'm totally stealing a few of those ship tactics if I can make them work...
Just to sum them up they live outside the honor code held by most of the empire.
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Intelligence
I also recommend this, it's extremely insightful, and a lot of fun.
<@_@> Someone knows my previous work! Yay! <^_^>
Hopefully this will live up to expectations then!
In regards to 3 I would highly recommend finding General Changs lectures from the Klingon Academy game. He touches on glorys place in a Klingons life. The short answer is Glory is not sought out. Through Duty, Honor, and Loyalty; Glory will find you.
as far as questions 4 and 5. I really don't know. As far as 5 goes Cryptic hasn't told us.
(It's also interesting to note that modern Klingons consider the Augmented Klingons from TOS to be dishonorable, because the human influence on their genes made them sneaky and underhanded -- it would have been completely in character for TOS Klingons to use cloaks. Kahless also employed less than honorable tactics on the ground in "The Savage Curtain", but that image of him was taken from Kirk's mind, and so is not exactly trustworthy
OTOH, I think it's telling to remember that originally, the script of "Balance of Terror", which is the first episode in which a cloaking device appeared, is based on a conflict between a naval destroyer and a submarine. The cloak is not a device to hide and trick your foes, but a mechanism to create the suspense of one commander having to hunt for an confront the other. Looking at it that way, it is no more dishonorable to use a cloaking device than it is for a submarine to submerge to escape detection. That's what a submarine DOES.
I think when it comes to the Klingon concept of honor, the attitude presented by the other posters fits. A Klingon would use a cloak, but he would use it to approach the combat and engage the enemy, but once that was accomplished he would remain uncloaked. The Bird of Prey or the refit which is able to remain cloaked, as they are designed to use that feature and are relatively weak without it, would use the cloak to evade the foe and foil his aim, but NOT to retreat dishonorably from a battle he is losing.
As for retreat, I would say it depends a lot on if the Klingon's goals have been achieved. If he's a raider striking at a given target, then definately he would retreat once it is destroyed, if there is no glory to be gained from further combat. Retreating for the sake of his crew, faced with a target that has turned out to be impossible, would depend on a number of factors, including whether it would be important to report the unexpected strength of the foe to his superiors. Klingons are opportunists, though, if the opportunity presents itself to retreat and come back stronger, the Klingon would do it.
I have to disagree with you here.
ALL combat has glory, even if victory is achieved already. Retreat is not automatic upon completion of ones objective, but conditional upon whether or not there is anything to be gained. Obviously if the enemy is routed, and it's a few light pickets of defense after your goal has already been achieved, there's no reason to stay, but, if there's still honorable combat to be had with worthy opponents after the main objective is achieved, a Klingon General may just decide to stay for the glory of battle itself.
And Klingons are not opportunists, they are merely eager for battle, if they were opportunists, Martok would have killed Gowron ages before Worf did, and Kang, Koloth, and Kor would have each ended up killing Kirk when they had the chance.
Romulans (spits at the very mention of the name) are opportunists.
You gotta watch Enterprise! At least 'Broken Bow' Pt. 1 & 2. (both full episodes are @ startrek.com)
Just for the fact it has that one guy from Friday that got knocked the &^%$ out as a Klingon.
Spoiler alert- he gets knocked the *&^% out again. This time by a farmer in Oklahoma.
That actor also played the President in 'the Fifth Element.'
Also another Enterprise episode features Uncle Phil from Fresh Prince as a Klingon. Good stuff.