ST:VI Undiscovered Country shows Chancellor Gorkon's flagship was a K'T'INGA refit (Kronos One), took two hits on her dorsal hull from photons and still came about to stomp a mud hole in someone.
Chekov: "If they fire, with our shields down..."
Chekov was worried if they took A hit, with no shields?? After Kronos One took TWO and still came about kinda mad??? Kinda speaks of the K'T'INGA'a reputation for being a badass.
ST:VI Undiscovered Country shows Chancellor Gorkon's flagship was a K'T'INGA refit (Kronos One), took two hits on her dorsal hull from photons and still came about to stomp a mud hole in someone.
Chekov: "If they fire, with our shields down..."
Chekov was worried if they took A hit, with no shields?? After Kronos One took TWO and still came about kinda mad??? Kinda speaks of the K'T'INGA'a reputation for being a badass.
The K't'inga was not really damaged by the two torps.
Which was not the intention anyway since it was only enough to disable grvitiy for a while.
There is no point in blowing up the ship Chang is aboard himself.
Also the BoP seemed to use torpedoes very similar to the Starfleet model, otherwise the damage pattern would have been noticably different.
There is also the possiblity that the torpedo yield was intentionally limited to keep damage to the ship contained to gravity.
Otherwise there would have probably been bigger explosions too.
Have you looked at the caliber of the torpedo launcher the K't'inga has?
Take a look at these two pictures and compare for yourself:
So the immerdiate punch is probably considerable.
Which would explain why Chekov said "When they fire with our shields down, we will not be able to respond."
The D-8 is the fourth and final iteration on the classic Drell type hull whose evolution apparently began with the D-4. It is for all intents and purposes a heavily uprated D-7, with an improved shielding system and photon torpedoes in place of its disruptors. Coupled with the Drell hulls proven maneuverability these upgrades make the D-8 a worthy foe for Star Fleets new linear warp refitted starships.
The D-8 was first seen in action during the VGer Crisis of 2267. As VGer made its way across Klingon space a trio of D-8 battlecruisers unsuccessfully attempted to engage it near the Organian Treaty Zone. All three vessels were destroyed in the process; however, extensive intelligence was gathered on the encounter by the nearby Epsilon 9 monitor station (which was itself destroyed by VGer shortly thereafter). Analysis of the data confirmed that the Klingons were keeping pace with Federation starship technology and that in a fair fight the D-8 would prove to be a formidable opponent. In practice the D-8 has proven to be the Klingon equivalent of the Enterprise class heavy cruiser, once again establishing relative parity between the two interstellar powers for a time.
The D-8 is currently the mainstay of the Klingon battlecruiser fleet. It has replaced both of its predecessors, the D-6 and D-7, on the Klingon production schedule and has all but replaced them in major fleet operations. As all of these are brand new, fitted with the latest in Klingon starship technology advances, the D-8 will most likely remain a common sight for decades to come.
I should have guessed Mandel. Sounded pretty familiar.
The use of the term "Enterprise Class" also makes it pretty clear that this comes from the time around Star Trek 2, where that term was used by FASA as well.
Yes some nice reading but ultimately not much more weight to it than the stuff you or I can come up with.
I wrote some fan fiction when I was making ships for the Babylon 5 Wars Tabletop game.
I even invented an entire development history for the Kelvin type, but ultimately it's just that, fan-fiction.
dontdrunkimshoot, thank you very much for the extensive reply.
I'm stuck with a whole lot of work ATM and will probably not get a chance to write a proper response I feel is needed to cover all angels I'd like to comment for the next...I guess 40 hours.
But I'd like to say that I'm looking forward to continuing this dialogue on sunday.:)
Just something I'd like to add right now: the scenario from SFB "The Mighty Hood goes down" involves three D7's.
The K't'inga was not really damaged by the two torps.
Which was not the intention anyway since it was only enough to disable grvitiy for a while.
There is no point in blowing up the ship Chang is aboard himself.
those torpedo hits landed ether side of the ships reactor dome, those were direct hits on engineering. all that did was knock out main power for a minute (and gravity), and make it mad.
dontdrunkimshoot, thank you very much for the extensive reply.
I'm stuck with a whole lot of work ATM and will probably not get a chance to write a proper response I feel is needed to cover all angels I'd like to comment for the next...I guess 40 hours.
But I'd like to say that I'm looking forward to continuing this dialogue on sunday.:)
Just something I'd like to add right now: the scenario from SFB "The Mighty Hood goes down" involves three D7's.
just shows you how little i know about all that old SFB content. i drew a little from that old stuff, but i didn't want to go over board. all that stuff is completely uncanon, but it can be used to creatively fill in some blanks, but not at the expense of established canon. if you have some more blanks to fill in though, or a better way to handle an empty stretch of time, it would be interesting to hear for sure.
I just had an idea while lamenting the lack of Science ships: why not have the K'tinga be a Nebula that cloaks rather than having the tachyon grid? It could keep the 4 forward 2 aft weapon slots it had at T3, the universal bridge slot would represent the fact it's still something of a work horse, and grant extra utitlity to the non-science career paths, and the KDF would have a science ship that's not the Varanus or a Bird of Prey moonlighting as one. Also, having a "science ship hull" would represent the limitations of the K'tinga space frame, while the added shields would represent the advances i shield technology that could be applied to it. This idea kills at least two birds with one photon torpedo. It also solves the problem of "how can a ship that size be a cruiser at T5?". Stats exist and work as far as balance is concerend, and the model, though it's broken in some aspects (turquoise engine nacelle illumination and the red "grille" on top of the engineering hull have visuals at a distance, but not close up), also exists.
i could almost buy that, but i would want to see some visual upgrades like a bigger deflector on the front of it and a bunch or extra armor, maybe an antenna or 2? it would be a real mad scientist special. could be great.
i also have long thought that the tier 5 nebula should have 4/2 weapon slots too, note the huge array up front and half as many small arrays as the galaxy has aft
i could almost buy that, but i would want to see some visual upgrades like a bigger deflector on the front of it and a bunch or extra armor, maybe an antenna or 2? it would be a real mad scientist special. could be great.
i also have long thought that the tier 5 nebula should have 4/2 weapon slots too, note the huge array up front and half as many small arrays as the galaxy has aft
I'm not sure why it'd need the extra armour, it'd only have 7500 more HP, and BoPs and Varanus's and Vo'quvs aren't covered with antenas or large deflectors. But it could be cool, I think maybe putting a "ring" of glowy bits around the torp tube might work in that regard, a bit like how birds of prey or the Vor'cha variant have, but maybe a less regular shape similar to the armour plates on Qo'nos One from ST-VI.
K'tinga Advanced Battle Cruiser perhaps? With all the sciency stuff it'd be able to do I'm sure it could justify the advanced prefix better than the Excelsior.
Edit: I took into account speccing into the K'tinga with my figures by mistake:o.
I just had an idea while lamenting the lack of Science ships: why not have the K'tinga be a Nebula that cloaks rather than having the tachyon grid? It could keep the 4 forward 2 aft weapon slots it had at T3, the universal bridge slot would represent the fact it's still something of a work horse, and grant extra utitlity to the non-science career paths, and the KDF would have a science ship that's not the Varanus or a Bird of Prey moonlighting as one. Also, having a "science ship hull" would represent the limitations of the K'tinga space frame, while the added shields would represent the advances i shield technology that could be applied to it. This idea kills at least two birds with one photon torpedo. It also solves the problem of "how can a ship that size be a cruiser at T5?". Stats exist and work as far as balance is concerend, and the model, though it's broken in some aspects (turquoise engine nacelle illumination and the red "grille" on top of the engineering hull have visuals at a distance, but not close up), also exists.
Very easy for Cryptic to implement!
What do you guys think?
Well, since we both posted in another thread back before the Battlecruiser subforums were closed down I guess you know my idea (a "Light Battlecruiser").
Well your idea does have the charm of being somewhat based in Trek when we look at the IKS T'Ong from TNG:Emissary where a K't'inga was used for a long-range operation of some sort.
So they are useable for lon range investigative missions of some sort.
The model probelm was not actually existent at first.
At some point they reversed the low-quality and the high-quality model which are displayed at different viewing distances.
But since it is a problem that affects the Klingons there is no need to be bothered with fixing it.
Same ges for the still-missing aft Photon Torpedo tube which the K't'inga has had since 1978.
What exactly did you have in mind statwise?
Commander Science, LtC Engineering?
Or perhaps since the K't'inag is an old warhorse Commander Science with LtC Tactical?
In any case to be effective as a science ship it would be good if it had 4 Science consoles.
Perhaps a console and maneuverability layout siilar to the RSSV would work.
Meaning a little buff in agility over the T3 K't'inga similar to what I describe in my long-winded speech.
Howeve in both your and my case the K't'inga would not gain much hull.
But that is probably not that bad since it is lighter than a Nova.;)
Well, since we both posted in another thread back before the Battlecruiser subforums were closed down I guess you know my idea (a "Light Battlecruiser").
Well your idea does have the charm of being somewhat based in Trek when we look at the IKS T'Ong from TNG:Emissary where a K't'inga was used for a long-range operation of some sort.
So they are useable for lon range investigative missions of some sort.
The model probelm was not actually existent at first.
At some point they reversed the low-quality and the high-quality model which are displayed at different viewing distances.
But since it is a problem that affects the Klingons there is no need to be bothered with fixing it.
Same ges for the still-missing aft Photon Torpedo tube which the K't'inga has had since 1978.
What exactly did you have in mind statwise?
Commander Science, LtC Engineering?
Or perhaps since the K't'inag is an old warhorse Commander Science with LtC Tactical?
In any case to be effective as a science ship it would be good if it had 4 Science consoles.
Perhaps a console and maneuverability layout siilar to the RSSV would work.
Meaning a little buff in agility over the T3 K't'inga similar to what I describe in my long-winded speech.
Howeve in both your and my case the K't'inga would not gain much hull.
But that is probably not that bad since it is lighter than a Nova.;)
I like the idea of a light cruiser, but I think that a cruisery science ship would fill a larger gap in the KDF's ship roster as there are three cruisers, but one science ship at T5.
As for the Neb's Bof layout, I believe it's Lt Tactical, Cmdr & Ens Sci, Lt Cmdr Eng, and Lt Universal, with two tac, two eng, and three sci consoles. I think if another sci were used as a base, the tactical edge the Luna has over the Intrepid or the Oracle's extra eng capablity would be more appropriate for the K'tinga, but I think the Nebula layout best fits it's whole "work horse" thing.
none of what i wrote can be called all that canon, and some things were kind of implied in the movies but i ran with them. there is a lack of a concrete information durring that period and i did my best to piece together information and figure out a pecking order.
Always a good idea, however in many cases such tings don't entirely come into existence in a complete vacuum.
There are thos who read stuff from various tabletops, fanon "intelligence papers" or use computer game stats as a basis.
1. the lack of canon open war at that point might be because of a deterrent. the refit constitution getting rid of v'ger when a squad of ktingas was annihilated could be such a deterrent.
The storylines between SFB and the movies diverge almost immedeatelly meaning the "General War" from SFB never took place.
But also the Refit of the Enterprise we see never takes place in SFB although it would occured well before their General War in terms of years between the Organia incident and the oubreak of full-scale war in that universe.
Also the SFB upgrades look quite different:
2. the connie being no match for a ktinga i think is funny because the klingons think its really powerful at that time, if you run with that deterrent idea. in those SFB based starfleet command games federation ships always had the best sensors, so i figure they would know how their ship stacks up before the klingons do, they would need a fight to be sure. plus the federation has the excelsior eventually and connie, and it only seems fare that the ktinga ranks somewhere between the 2. in canon the klingons didn't have all those nifty FASA ships.
The problem there is that the K't'inga is still just half the mass of the Connie refit, which is about 50 science/50 combat so they'd end up somewhere around evenly matched again.
It is also interesting to note that just every tabletop that was ever "official" made the D7 and its variants a little below the Federation cruiser couterparts.
So ther sems to be some odd reason for that.
3. i recall the destruction of the Hood from ether SFB or FASA or whatever sparking a war or open aggression so i used that as the incident that gave the klingons real battle intelligence, then they acted accordingly.
Three, and since there is no actual K't'inga in the SFB universe they used standard D7s.
In fact the guys from ADB once explained in an edition of their "Captain's log" magazine why they thought a Klingon battlecruiser was in their opinion incapable of firing Photon Torpedoes (one of the trademarks of the K't'inga)
In eraly season of TOS the Enterprise shuddered a little when she fired weapons and the lights also dimmed occasionally.
So the interpretation from ADB was that the ship sustained some kind of stress when using its weapons, similar to the use of naval guns whose recoil causes shock-like stress on a ship.
Since in SFB Photon torpedoes are more akin to energy weapons they cause a lot more shock than lighter weapons like Phasers.
The SFB rules also force players to roll for shock-damage to the ship when it is considered "overgunned".
This is for example the case with the New Jersey Battlecruiser, which has 6 Photons instead of the 4 of the Kirov-type.
The Kirov does not suffer from this since missiles don't cause shock.
Anyway when torpeodes are fired in too short a sequence from each other the player must roll for ship whose results will cause damage to the ship.
So in the opinion of the ABD guys a Klingon Battlecruiser would not be able to use Photons because the launcher would be in the forward section which is connected to the rear only by the thin boom.
So when using Photons for any length of time the ship would tear itself apart in the middle where it is supposedly so weak.
So in the SFB universe, from which you took your idea that a K't'inga took out the Hood, they'd probably furrow their brow of the very notion of a K't'inga's existence.
Just a little anecdote regarding the incredible differences between SFB and modern Trek, nothing more.:)
4. a D7 probably cant just be turned into a ktinga, so i figured a D8, or what ever you would call an uprated D7 would make sense. i was saying that a D8 and a ktinga were 2 different ships too, the ktinga being all new from the ground up and the D8 being an upgraded D7. since the connie refit is an uprated connie, it seemed that them being a more even match was fair.
My mistake I misunderstod you there regarding the D8 K't'inga difference.
Intersting enough, in Klingn Academy that was what they actually did.
And after the V'Ger incident the Klingons paused the upgrade process for months thinking it was a design flaw that caused the three ships to be wiped out.
When they learned how powerful the blue could actually was they started the upgrade process anew.
It's really funny how different some of the soft-canon interpretations can turn out.
5. the enterprise movie era history between ST I and ST II i talked about is basically exactly what any complex timeline you can find on line would tell you about that era.
6. i noticed that the relient's role bar phasers looked thicker then the enterprise's phasers in ST II, and in ST III kirk specifically asks about a refit, not just a repair, and he's gotten his second wind and feels young and all that and he wants the enterprise to be top of the line again. to me that implies that the heavier role bar phasers the light cruiser relient fired might be a newer stronger emitter, and would be installed in the duel turret locations on a heavy cruiser, wile a light cruiser might just have those heavier phasers in its role bar. so thats why i think there was a further uprating, but that doesn't seem like enough to beat a ktinga to me.
The special effects were exactly the same, which becomes pretty clear when you look at the scene in the Mutara Nebual where Raliant tries to cut trough the Enterprise's hull and compare it with the first strike of the Enterprise after Spock dropped Reliant's shields earlier.
You also seem to misunderstand what the term "refit" meant in Star Trek 3.
"Refit means getting the ship fit again.
It doesn no always mean that the ship is taken apart and mut back together with new capabilites.
It means getting it back up to strength when that strength was diminished.
For example the old British Battlecruisers HMS Renown and Repulse (sister ships) were so unreliable that they speant lots of time in docks for repair.
The crews referred to them as HMS refit and HMS repair, clearly showing that the two terms are not that different.
Refit in a different sense it only applicable when the ship is refit to a higher perfornance standard, like the Lakota was obviously refit to the higher 24th century standard or the Costitution class was in Star Trek 1.
7. the klingons turning to the bop design would make sense because if their top cruiser couldn't compete then they would need a cheap giant slayer because they could not compete with the federation economy, another notion from the starfleet command games
...which is tricky because Starfleet Command was based for the most part on Star Fleet Battles, which is only based on TOS and parts of TAS.
However the "Prime Directive" RPG, which plays in the same universe has a special section that exlpains a few of the differences between Star Trek as we know it and the "Star Fleet Universe".
It begins with the sentence "This is not Star Trek".
The only reason why Interplay could combine aspects of both (in a very confusing way actually) was because they had the licenses for both SFB and the TOS era movies at the same time.
However that the Klingons had some economic problems after the Praxis incident would at least fit
8. that augment smooth brow fear in heart thing should be all to familiar to anyone who watched enterprise and has played STO, and could further explain siding on caution durring this time. also the klingon academy storyline that took place before ST VI, by then the klingons were finally becoming klingons again.
9 in the late 24th century the BOP was the go to klingon ship when anything less then a vorcha or negvar was needed. the ktinga was only ever in the background. also that red beam they fired during that period i figure are some kind of heavy weapon for fleet battles, any conventional weapons it could mount at that time probably wouldn't be powerful enough to mater.
In terms of the BoP, I'd personally say the Klingons used something like a BoP yes, but as we saw in various episodes of TNG (not just Yesterday's Enterprise) those were ships that were also physically between the K't'inga and the Vor'cha.
However I'd also like to add that one of the reaons for that was because just like the Movie Enterpise model, the K't'inga model was not available for shooting special effect scenes.
Which is why the K't'inga in TNG:"The Emissary" just just a reuse of a special effects scene from Star Trek 1.
The red mystery beam from "Way of the Warrior" is not entirely that mysterious when you watch "Honor Among Thieves" where we see the familiar Klingon Disruptor Rifle from Star Trek 3 used again.
The weapons effect is entirely identical to the red beam the K't'inga used.
It's just a disruptor.
I like the idea of a light cruiser, but I think that a cruisery science ship would fill a larger gap in the KDF's ship roster as there are three cruisers, but one science ship at T5.
You're probably right that there is a bigger gap there.
I'm still hoping they'd refit a Raptor int a science-oriented ship rather than the K't'inga but since Cryptic only gives us previews of Federation ships we don't know for sure whether they consider anything we propose at all.
As for the Neb's Bof layout, I believe it's Lt Tactical, Cmdr & Ens Sci, Lt Cmdr Eng, and Lt Universal, with two tac, two eng, and three sci consoles. I think if another sci were used as a base, the tactical edge the Luna has over the Intrepid or the Oracle's extra eng capablity would be more appropriate for the K'tinga, but I think the Nebula layout best fits it's whole "work horse" thing.
Your description of the Nebula's stats is pretty close except that she has three Engy consoles instead of two, giving her eight altogether.
Since the K't'inga would stem from a cruiser a bit more Engineering capability would probably work too, you're right there.
So LtC Engineering.
Question is since Klingon T5 ships usually have all 9 consoles since the cloak is not considered a special skill, should the ninth console in your version be a fourth science console?
In any case your version would be the "workhorse" incarnation while mine would be the "warhorse" model.:)
Your description of the Nebula's stats is pretty close except that she has three Engy consoles instead of two, giving her eight altogether.
Since the K't'inga would stem from a cruiser a bit more Engineering capability would probably work too, you're right there.
So LtC Engineering.
Question is since Klingon T5 ships usually have all 9 consoles since the cloak is not considered a special skill, should the ninth console in your version be a fourth science console?
In any case your version would be the "workhorse" incarnation while mine would be the "warhorse" model.:)
In keeping with the work horse thing and it's utility with different captain types, I'd probably go with three of each if it had 9 consoles to spread around, it wouldn't make sense for it to be outgunned by a BoP for example.
In keeping with the work horse thing and it's utility with different captain types, I'd probably go with three of each if it had 9 consoles to spread around, it wouldn't make sense for it to be outgunned by a BoP for example.
The reason why IMO the BoP is such a limited Science ship has to do with the 3/3/3 arrangement.
There were those who said the Nebula is not that good for Science is precisely because with its 3 Science console slots you can't stack consoles properly.
If the ship you're proposing is supposed to be more useful than a BoP in that capacity, to quote you:
"...the KDF would have a science ship that's not the Varanus or a Bird of Prey moonlighting as one."
would it not make sense if it actually had 4 science consoles?
Otherwise it would be moonlighting as much as the BoP does.
Also the T5 BoP (with the Exception of the Chang model) are as big as a K't'inga and also have as many and sometimes even more visible weapon mounts.
So them outgunning an ancient cruiser is not too far off.
The reason why IMO the BoP is such a limited Science ship has to do with the 3/3/3 arrangement.
There were those who said the Nebula is not that good for Science is precisely because with its 3 Science console slots you can't stack consoles properly.
If the ship you're proposing is supposed to be more useful than a BoP in that capacity, to quote you:
"...the KDF would have a science ship that's not the Varanus or a Bird of Prey moonlighting as one."
would it not make sense if it actually had 4 science consoles?
Otherwise it would be moonlighting as much as the BoP does.
Also the T5 BoP (with the Exception of the Chang model) are as big as a K't'inga and also have as many and sometimes even more visible weapon mounts.
So them outgunning an ancient cruiser is not too far off.
The reason I don't think it'd be moon lighting as much as the BOP is now is that it'd have the same abilities as a science ship, the subsystem targeting, higher shields, sensor scan etc. As far as I can see, the Nebula's a genuinely formidable ship and holds it's own well amongst the pantheon of starfleet science vessels. Also, owing to the fact that realisticly, the KDF is never going to have as many ship choices as starfleet, it makes sense to cover more than one base with any new ship so it's useful to more than one career path, just like the Nebula is.
I understand your point, but I feel the Nebula "blueprint" is sciency enough to get by on just three science consoles. The consequences of making it have four would be that something else only has two, like tactical or engineering, and neither choice really "suits" the image of the K'tinga I've always had, but then again, that's just me.
The problem there is that the K't'inga is still just half the mass of the Connie refit, which is about 50 science/50 combat so they'd end up somewhere around evenly matched again.
the whole ktinga has less mass then the connie thing can be explained the same way they explain the escorts being able to stand up to large cruisers. using those fractions i would rate them like this- connie 45 science/30 combat/25 nothing to do with ether, and the ktinga i would rank 20 science/70 combat/10 nothing to do with ether. Aluming they are supposed to add up to 100 or something. Theres alot more stuff on federation ships that isnt going to help in a fight, but they lug it around anyway because they are so general purpose.
it is also interesting to note that just every tabletop that was ever "official" made the D7 and its variants a little below the Federation cruiser couterparts.
So ther sems to be some odd reason for that.
Of course, the enertprise is the hero, and tng and later 80s movies hadnt even been thought up yet, let alone the excelsior or anything else that outclassed the connie. their perspective of things was smaller than ours is now, and most of it was tos stuff only!
Three, and since there is no actual K't'inga in the SFB universe they used standard D7s.
In fact the guys from ADB once explained in an edition of their "Captain's log" magazine why they thought a Klingon battlecruiser was in their opinion incapable of firing Photon Torpedoes (one of the trademarks of the K't'inga)
In eraly season of TOS the Enterprise shuddered a little when she fired weapons and the lights also dimmed occasionally.
So the interpretation from ADB was that the ship sustained some kind of stress when using its weapons, similar to the use of naval guns whose recoil causes shock-like stress on a ship.
Since in SFB Photon torpedoes are more akin to energy weapons they cause a lot more shock than lighter weapons like Phasers.
The SFB rules also force players to roll for shock-damage to the ship when it is considered "overgunned".
This is for example the case with the New Jersey Battlecruiser, which has 6 Photons instead of the 4 of the Kirov-type.
The Kirov does not suffer from this since missiles don't cause shock.
Anyway when torpeodes are fired in too short a sequence from each other the player must roll for ship whose results will cause damage to the ship.
So in the opinion of the ABD guys a Klingon Battlecruiser would not be able to use Photons because the launcher would be in the forward section which is connected to the rear only by the thin boom.
So when using Photons for any length of time the ship would tear itself apart in the middle where it is supposedly so weak.
So in the SFB universe, from which you took your idea that a K't'inga took out the Hood, they'd probably furrow their brow of the very notion of a K't'inga's existence.
Just a little anecdote regarding the incredible differences between SFB and modern Trek, nothing more.:)
tos isnt allot to go on is it lol. Stuff like that is fascinating though, a lot of imagination would be needed.
My mistake I misunderstod you there regarding the D8 K't'inga difference.
Intersting enough, in Klingn Academy that was what they actually did.
And after the V'Ger incident the Klingons paused the upgrade process for months thinking it was a design flaw that caused the three ships to be wiped out.
When they learned how powerful the blue could actually was they started the upgrade process anew.
It's really funny how different some of the soft-canon interpretations can turn out.
The special effects were exactly the same, which becomes pretty clear when you look at the scene in the Mutara Nebual where Raliant tries to cut trough the Enterprise's hull and compare it with the first strike of the Enterprise after Spock dropped Reliant's shields earlier.
You also seem to misunderstand what the term "refit" meant in Star Trek 3.
"Refit means getting the ship fit again.
It doesn no always mean that the ship is taken apart and mut back together with new capabilites.
It means getting it back up to strength when that strength was diminished.
For example the old British Battlecruisers HMS Renown and Repulse (sister ships) were so unreliable that they speant lots of time in docks for repair.
The crews referred to them as HMS refit and HMS repair, clearly showing that the two terms are not that different.
Refit in a different sense it only applicable when the ship is refit to a higher perfornance standard, like the Lakota was obviously refit to the higher 24th century standard or the Costitution class was in Star Trek 1.
dropping the word refit got my brain thinking things other than a standard fix up job. also the enterprise had been an academy training ship for almost a decade, so there might have been something significant that the enterprise never got due to its training ship status.
...which is tricky because Starfleet Command was based for the most part on Star Fleet Battles, which is only based on TOS and parts of TAS.
However the "Prime Directive" RPG, which plays in the same universe has a special section that exlpains a few of the differences between Star Trek as we know it and the "Star Fleet Universe".
It begins with the sentence "This is not Star Trek".
The only reason why Interplay could combine aspects of both (in a very confusing way actually) was because they had the licenses for both SFB and the TOS era movies at the same time.
However that the Klingons had some economic problems after the Praxis incident would at least fit
After i played starfleet command i looked up the old pen and paper stuff and was like huh? weres all the movie era stuff? They did a pretty good job mashing everything together in the computer game though. i didnt mean they had an economic problem, i just meant that the federation was huge and the smaller klingon empire wouldnt be able to compete with them dollar per dollar. After praxis though thats a big economic burden.
The red mystery beam from "Way of the Warrior" is not entirely that mysterious when you watch "Honor Among Thieves" where we see the familiar Klingon Disruptor Rifle from Star Trek 3 used again.
The weapons effect is entirely identical to the red beam the K't'inga used.
It's just a disruptor.
Thanks.
Someone in the art department must have liked that red look, having it show up again in a hand weapon. All the other klingon ship and hand weapons were ether green beams or pulses though, that red is an anomaly. Considering the ktinga is so old and quite small compared to the big bops and vorchas that red beam i figure was something different and special, maybe a heavy support weapon.
the whole ktinga has less mass then the connie thing can be explained the same way they explain the escorts being able to stand up to large cruisers. using those fractions i would rate them like this- connie 45 science/30 combat/25 nothing to do with ether, and the ktinga i would rank 20 science/70 combat/10 nothing to do with ether. Aluming they are supposed to add up to 100 or something. Theres alot more stuff on federation ships that isnt going to help in a fight, but they lug it around anyway because they are so general purpose.
My point was that the Connie is so much larger but that her larger size is due to their general-purpose nature.
So the factor that the K't'inga is far more of a pure combat ship than the Connie is roughly compensated by the fact that the K't'inga is only half the Connie's weight.
Even though only a smaller percentage of the Connie's makeup is defensive systems, at double the size (not:size as in mass, not lengh) they end up roughly matched.
As for the escorts: those are a different story because they are not really long-range craft so they expend their resources much faster without being burdened by large fuel and suppply mass.
The K't'inga however is not an escort but a long-range ship like the Connie.
My personal impression of the K't'inga (in Star Trek, not STO) is that it probably scales better than the Connie refit.
(This "feeling" is probably coloured by many years of Klingon Academy where this was the case.)
Meaning that with an incompetent commander (which is what we usually saw in Trek) the ship is probably rather weak because it is obviously weaker in the defensive area and when the commander does not know how to handle it, its greater maneuverability does not help at all.
Meaning the Connie is most likely more "forgiving" in terms of mistakes.
On the other hand with a skilled commander the really good firepower and agility will probably be far more devastating than a Connie with a good commander and crew.
What I trying to say is that the K't'inga is (due to my gut feeling) a ship whose basic values are probably not making her the most stellar ship while it's the crwes that would have made her shin but because of its status as the "bad guy's" ship it never got that chance.
However I seriously doubt it would be as superb as you seem to think it is.
And I honestly am not sure it could hold its own against an Excelsior, neither in the 23rd nor the 24th century.
At least not in identical terms.
That's why I proposed those odd stats because with higher maneuverability and some leeway in terms of the powers that make up a T5 the K't'inga might have a chance.
But as a classical cruiser, I don't think so.
Of course, the enertprise is the hero, and tng and later 80s movies hadnt even been thought up yet, let alone the excelsior or anything else that outclassed the connie. their perspective of things was smaller than ours is now, and most of it was tos stuff only!
Incorrect, FASA had the Excelsior and the Galaxy class so their view was far wider than that of ADB and the result was stil the same.
There is also always the difference between a general class of ships and a specific hero ship.
And both FASA and ADB have/had a rather dispassionate approach to their ship stats.
ADB even had to go a step further since they could not use names of personnell from TOS due to their odd license.
After i played starfleet command i looked up the old pen and paper stuff and was like huh? weres all the movie era stuff? They did a pretty good job mashing everything together in the computer game though. i didnt mean they had an economic problem, i just meant that the federation was huge and the smaller klingon empire wouldnt be able to compete with them dollar per dollar. After praxis though thats a big economic burden.
Probably had something to do with the usual clicé that also appears in games like SFC that the Klingons are Soviets in Space while the Federaton is supposed to be the U.S. in space (SFB goes so far as to suggest the Federation is using dollar as a currency) so we know where this view comes from.
It is interesting to note that we don't really know the economic state of the Klignon Empire befor Praxis, only that afterwars the Klingons were stuck with a gigantic military that had litle use in the crisis situation.
Someone in the art department must have liked that red look, having it show up again in a hand weapon. All the other klingon ship and hand weapons were ether green beams or pulses though, that red is an anomaly. Considering the ktinga is so old and quite small compared to the big bops and vorchas that red beam i figure was something different and special, maybe a heavy support weapon.
Or maybe he just remembered Star Trek 6, where Klingon Disruptors were also red beams...
Number one reason to have a t-5 K'tinga/D7.. what ever you want to call it.
The Klingon Players Want One!
ie: the customer..
all else while supremly entertaining is rubbish.
I think the question is not so much what, because if we did not care we would not be posting so much and, respectfully, "putting our heads together", the question is more the how.
Comments
Chekov: "If they fire, with our shields down..."
Chekov was worried if they took A hit, with no shields?? After Kronos One took TWO and still came about kinda mad??? Kinda speaks of the K'T'INGA'a reputation for being a badass.
The K't'inga was not really damaged by the two torps.
Which was not the intention anyway since it was only enough to disable grvitiy for a while.
There is no point in blowing up the ship Chang is aboard himself.
Also the BoP seemed to use torpedoes very similar to the Starfleet model, otherwise the damage pattern would have been noticably different.
There is also the possiblity that the torpedo yield was intentionally limited to keep damage to the ship contained to gravity.
Otherwise there would have probably been bigger explosions too.
Have you looked at the caliber of the torpedo launcher the K't'inga has?
Take a look at these two pictures and compare for yourself:
Measly little Federation launcher:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20050603220743/memoryalpha/en/images/4/4d/Constitution_class_refit_torpedo.jpg
Three decks large Klingon model, firing 30 meter torpedoes:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090525062206/memoryalpha/en/images/a/a4/IKS_Amar_firing_forward_torpedo.jpg
So the immerdiate punch is probably considerable.
Which would explain why Chekov said "When they fire with our shields down, we will not be able to respond."
I should have guessed Mandel. Sounded pretty familiar.
The use of the term "Enterprise Class" also makes it pretty clear that this comes from the time around Star Trek 2, where that term was used by FASA as well.
Yes some nice reading but ultimately not much more weight to it than the stuff you or I can come up with.
I wrote some fan fiction when I was making ships for the Babylon 5 Wars Tabletop game.
I even invented an entire development history for the Kelvin type, but ultimately it's just that, fan-fiction.
I'm stuck with a whole lot of work ATM and will probably not get a chance to write a proper response I feel is needed to cover all angels I'd like to comment for the next...I guess 40 hours.
But I'd like to say that I'm looking forward to continuing this dialogue on sunday.:)
Just something I'd like to add right now: the scenario from SFB "The Mighty Hood goes down" involves three D7's.
those torpedo hits landed ether side of the ships reactor dome, those were direct hits on engineering. all that did was knock out main power for a minute (and gravity), and make it mad.
just shows you how little i know about all that old SFB content. i drew a little from that old stuff, but i didn't want to go over board. all that stuff is completely uncanon, but it can be used to creatively fill in some blanks, but not at the expense of established canon. if you have some more blanks to fill in though, or a better way to handle an empty stretch of time, it would be interesting to hear for sure.
Very easy for Cryptic to implement!
What do you guys think?
i could almost buy that, but i would want to see some visual upgrades like a bigger deflector on the front of it and a bunch or extra armor, maybe an antenna or 2? it would be a real mad scientist special. could be great.
i also have long thought that the tier 5 nebula should have 4/2 weapon slots too, note the huge array up front and half as many small arrays as the galaxy has aft
I'm not sure why it'd need the extra armour, it'd only have 7500 more HP, and BoPs and Varanus's and Vo'quvs aren't covered with antenas or large deflectors. But it could be cool, I think maybe putting a "ring" of glowy bits around the torp tube might work in that regard, a bit like how birds of prey or the Vor'cha variant have, but maybe a less regular shape similar to the armour plates on Qo'nos One from ST-VI.
K'tinga Advanced Battle Cruiser perhaps? With all the sciency stuff it'd be able to do I'm sure it could justify the advanced prefix better than the Excelsior.
Edit: I took into account speccing into the K'tinga with my figures by mistake:o.
Well, since we both posted in another thread back before the Battlecruiser subforums were closed down I guess you know my idea (a "Light Battlecruiser").
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3439615&postcount=14
along with my long-winded reasoning
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3551131&postcount=88
Well your idea does have the charm of being somewhat based in Trek when we look at the IKS T'Ong from TNG:Emissary where a K't'inga was used for a long-range operation of some sort.
So they are useable for lon range investigative missions of some sort.
The model probelm was not actually existent at first.
At some point they reversed the low-quality and the high-quality model which are displayed at different viewing distances.
But since it is a problem that affects the Klingons there is no need to be bothered with fixing it.
Same ges for the still-missing aft Photon Torpedo tube which the K't'inga has had since 1978.
What exactly did you have in mind statwise?
Commander Science, LtC Engineering?
Or perhaps since the K't'inag is an old warhorse Commander Science with LtC Tactical?
In any case to be effective as a science ship it would be good if it had 4 Science consoles.
Perhaps a console and maneuverability layout siilar to the RSSV would work.
Meaning a little buff in agility over the T3 K't'inga similar to what I describe in my long-winded speech.
Howeve in both your and my case the K't'inga would not gain much hull.
But that is probably not that bad since it is lighter than a Nova.;)
Assuming there is still room for a special ability in addition to the cloak, how about the Anti-Proton scanner from my Scout-Raptor Proposal?
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showpost.php?p=3411498&postcount=117
I like the idea of a light cruiser, but I think that a cruisery science ship would fill a larger gap in the KDF's ship roster as there are three cruisers, but one science ship at T5.
As for the Neb's Bof layout, I believe it's Lt Tactical, Cmdr & Ens Sci, Lt Cmdr Eng, and Lt Universal, with two tac, two eng, and three sci consoles. I think if another sci were used as a base, the tactical edge the Luna has over the Intrepid or the Oracle's extra eng capablity would be more appropriate for the K'tinga, but I think the Nebula layout best fits it's whole "work horse" thing.
Always a good idea, however in many cases such tings don't entirely come into existence in a complete vacuum.
There are thos who read stuff from various tabletops, fanon "intelligence papers" or use computer game stats as a basis.
The storylines between SFB and the movies diverge almost immedeatelly meaning the "General War" from SFB never took place.
But also the Refit of the Enterprise we see never takes place in SFB although it would occured well before their General War in terms of years between the Organia incident and the oubreak of full-scale war in that universe.
Also the SFB upgrades look quite different:
http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic348953_md.jpg
http://store.starfleetstore.com/merchant2/graphics/00000003/G3%20Cover-Cart.jpg
On both you can see their version of the uprated Constitution, called Vincennes Class.
*scratches head*
I hope this respones makes sense somehow.
The problem there is that the K't'inga is still just half the mass of the Connie refit, which is about 50 science/50 combat so they'd end up somewhere around evenly matched again.
It is also interesting to note that just every tabletop that was ever "official" made the D7 and its variants a little below the Federation cruiser couterparts.
So ther sems to be some odd reason for that.
Three, and since there is no actual K't'inga in the SFB universe they used standard D7s.
In fact the guys from ADB once explained in an edition of their "Captain's log" magazine why they thought a Klingon battlecruiser was in their opinion incapable of firing Photon Torpedoes (one of the trademarks of the K't'inga)
In eraly season of TOS the Enterprise shuddered a little when she fired weapons and the lights also dimmed occasionally.
So the interpretation from ADB was that the ship sustained some kind of stress when using its weapons, similar to the use of naval guns whose recoil causes shock-like stress on a ship.
Since in SFB Photon torpedoes are more akin to energy weapons they cause a lot more shock than lighter weapons like Phasers.
The SFB rules also force players to roll for shock-damage to the ship when it is considered "overgunned".
This is for example the case with the New Jersey Battlecruiser, which has 6 Photons instead of the 4 of the Kirov-type.
The Kirov does not suffer from this since missiles don't cause shock.
Anyway when torpeodes are fired in too short a sequence from each other the player must roll for ship whose results will cause damage to the ship.
So in the opinion of the ABD guys a Klingon Battlecruiser would not be able to use Photons because the launcher would be in the forward section which is connected to the rear only by the thin boom.
So when using Photons for any length of time the ship would tear itself apart in the middle where it is supposedly so weak.
So in the SFB universe, from which you took your idea that a K't'inga took out the Hood, they'd probably furrow their brow of the very notion of a K't'inga's existence.
Just a little anecdote regarding the incredible differences between SFB and modern Trek, nothing more.:)
My mistake I misunderstod you there regarding the D8 K't'inga difference.
Intersting enough, in Klingn Academy that was what they actually did.
And after the V'Ger incident the Klingons paused the upgrade process for months thinking it was a design flaw that caused the three ships to be wiped out.
When they learned how powerful the blue could actually was they started the upgrade process anew.
It's really funny how different some of the soft-canon interpretations can turn out.
The special effects were exactly the same, which becomes pretty clear when you look at the scene in the Mutara Nebual where Raliant tries to cut trough the Enterprise's hull and compare it with the first strike of the Enterprise after Spock dropped Reliant's shields earlier.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20051012055448/memoryalpha/en/images/4/43/Constitution_class_refit_configuration_phasers.jpg
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060807225124/memoryalpha/en/images/5/58/Enterprise_under_attack.jpg
You also seem to misunderstand what the term "refit" meant in Star Trek 3.
"Refit means getting the ship fit again.
It doesn no always mean that the ship is taken apart and mut back together with new capabilites.
It means getting it back up to strength when that strength was diminished.
For example the old British Battlecruisers HMS Renown and Repulse (sister ships) were so unreliable that they speant lots of time in docks for repair.
The crews referred to them as HMS refit and HMS repair, clearly showing that the two terms are not that different.
Refit in a different sense it only applicable when the ship is refit to a higher perfornance standard, like the Lakota was obviously refit to the higher 24th century standard or the Costitution class was in Star Trek 1.
...which is tricky because Starfleet Command was based for the most part on Star Fleet Battles, which is only based on TOS and parts of TAS.
However the "Prime Directive" RPG, which plays in the same universe has a special section that exlpains a few of the differences between Star Trek as we know it and the "Star Fleet Universe".
It begins with the sentence "This is not Star Trek".
The only reason why Interplay could combine aspects of both (in a very confusing way actually) was because they had the licenses for both SFB and the TOS era movies at the same time.
However that the Klingons had some economic problems after the Praxis incident would at least fit
In terms of the BoP, I'd personally say the Klingons used something like a BoP yes, but as we saw in various episodes of TNG (not just Yesterday's Enterprise) those were ships that were also physically between the K't'inga and the Vor'cha.
However I'd also like to add that one of the reaons for that was because just like the Movie Enterpise model, the K't'inga model was not available for shooting special effect scenes.
Which is why the K't'inga in TNG:"The Emissary" just just a reuse of a special effects scene from Star Trek 1.
The red mystery beam from "Way of the Warrior" is not entirely that mysterious when you watch "Honor Among Thieves" where we see the familiar Klingon Disruptor Rifle from Star Trek 3 used again.
The weapons effect is entirely identical to the red beam the K't'inga used.
It's just a disruptor.
Thanks.
Your description of the Nebula's stats is pretty close except that she has three Engy consoles instead of two, giving her eight altogether.
Since the K't'inga would stem from a cruiser a bit more Engineering capability would probably work too, you're right there.
So LtC Engineering.
Question is since Klingon T5 ships usually have all 9 consoles since the cloak is not considered a special skill, should the ninth console in your version be a fourth science console?
In any case your version would be the "workhorse" incarnation while mine would be the "warhorse" model.:)
In keeping with the work horse thing and it's utility with different captain types, I'd probably go with three of each if it had 9 consoles to spread around, it wouldn't make sense for it to be outgunned by a BoP for example.
The reason why IMO the BoP is such a limited Science ship has to do with the 3/3/3 arrangement.
There were those who said the Nebula is not that good for Science is precisely because with its 3 Science console slots you can't stack consoles properly.
If the ship you're proposing is supposed to be more useful than a BoP in that capacity, to quote you:
"...the KDF would have a science ship that's not the Varanus or a Bird of Prey moonlighting as one."
would it not make sense if it actually had 4 science consoles?
Otherwise it would be moonlighting as much as the BoP does.
Also the T5 BoP (with the Exception of the Chang model) are as big as a K't'inga and also have as many and sometimes even more visible weapon mounts.
So them outgunning an ancient cruiser is not too far off.
The reason I don't think it'd be moon lighting as much as the BOP is now is that it'd have the same abilities as a science ship, the subsystem targeting, higher shields, sensor scan etc. As far as I can see, the Nebula's a genuinely formidable ship and holds it's own well amongst the pantheon of starfleet science vessels. Also, owing to the fact that realisticly, the KDF is never going to have as many ship choices as starfleet, it makes sense to cover more than one base with any new ship so it's useful to more than one career path, just like the Nebula is.
I understand your point, but I feel the Nebula "blueprint" is sciency enough to get by on just three science consoles. The consequences of making it have four would be that something else only has two, like tactical or engineering, and neither choice really "suits" the image of the K'tinga I've always had, but then again, that's just me.
the whole ktinga has less mass then the connie thing can be explained the same way they explain the escorts being able to stand up to large cruisers. using those fractions i would rate them like this- connie 45 science/30 combat/25 nothing to do with ether, and the ktinga i would rank 20 science/70 combat/10 nothing to do with ether. Aluming they are supposed to add up to 100 or something. Theres alot more stuff on federation ships that isnt going to help in a fight, but they lug it around anyway because they are so general purpose.
Of course, the enertprise is the hero, and tng and later 80s movies hadnt even been thought up yet, let alone the excelsior or anything else that outclassed the connie. their perspective of things was smaller than ours is now, and most of it was tos stuff only!
tos isnt allot to go on is it lol. Stuff like that is fascinating though, a lot of imagination would be needed.
i had to explain my take on things somehow!
i donno, it looks a bit thicker in exhibit 3 to me. But i probably just convinced myself it was
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080912215505/memoryalpha/en/images/2/27/USS_Reliant%2C_firing_phasers.jpg
dropping the word refit got my brain thinking things other than a standard fix up job. also the enterprise had been an academy training ship for almost a decade, so there might have been something significant that the enterprise never got due to its training ship status.
After i played starfleet command i looked up the old pen and paper stuff and was like huh? weres all the movie era stuff? They did a pretty good job mashing everything together in the computer game though. i didnt mean they had an economic problem, i just meant that the federation was huge and the smaller klingon empire wouldnt be able to compete with them dollar per dollar. After praxis though thats a big economic burden.
Someone in the art department must have liked that red look, having it show up again in a hand weapon. All the other klingon ship and hand weapons were ether green beams or pulses though, that red is an anomaly. Considering the ktinga is so old and quite small compared to the big bops and vorchas that red beam i figure was something different and special, maybe a heavy support weapon.
My point was that the Connie is so much larger but that her larger size is due to their general-purpose nature.
So the factor that the K't'inga is far more of a pure combat ship than the Connie is roughly compensated by the fact that the K't'inga is only half the Connie's weight.
Even though only a smaller percentage of the Connie's makeup is defensive systems, at double the size (not:size as in mass, not lengh) they end up roughly matched.
As for the escorts: those are a different story because they are not really long-range craft so they expend their resources much faster without being burdened by large fuel and suppply mass.
The K't'inga however is not an escort but a long-range ship like the Connie.
My personal impression of the K't'inga (in Star Trek, not STO) is that it probably scales better than the Connie refit.
(This "feeling" is probably coloured by many years of Klingon Academy where this was the case.)
Meaning that with an incompetent commander (which is what we usually saw in Trek) the ship is probably rather weak because it is obviously weaker in the defensive area and when the commander does not know how to handle it, its greater maneuverability does not help at all.
Meaning the Connie is most likely more "forgiving" in terms of mistakes.
On the other hand with a skilled commander the really good firepower and agility will probably be far more devastating than a Connie with a good commander and crew.
What I trying to say is that the K't'inga is (due to my gut feeling) a ship whose basic values are probably not making her the most stellar ship while it's the crwes that would have made her shin but because of its status as the "bad guy's" ship it never got that chance.
However I seriously doubt it would be as superb as you seem to think it is.
And I honestly am not sure it could hold its own against an Excelsior, neither in the 23rd nor the 24th century.
At least not in identical terms.
That's why I proposed those odd stats because with higher maneuverability and some leeway in terms of the powers that make up a T5 the K't'inga might have a chance.
But as a classical cruiser, I don't think so.
Incorrect, FASA had the Excelsior and the Galaxy class so their view was far wider than that of ADB and the result was stil the same.
There is also always the difference between a general class of ships and a specific hero ship.
And both FASA and ADB have/had a rather dispassionate approach to their ship stats.
ADB even had to go a step further since they could not use names of personnell from TOS due to their odd license.
No offense intended.
Probably had something to do with the usual clicé that also appears in games like SFC that the Klingons are Soviets in Space while the Federaton is supposed to be the U.S. in space (SFB goes so far as to suggest the Federation is using dollar as a currency) so we know where this view comes from.
It is interesting to note that we don't really know the economic state of the Klignon Empire befor Praxis, only that afterwars the Klingons were stuck with a gigantic military that had litle use in the crisis situation.
Or maybe he just remembered Star Trek 6, where Klingon Disruptors were also red beams...
http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/4274/vlcsnap2011070318h38m40.png
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/4817/vlcsnap2011070318h38m46.png
Number one reason to have a t-5 K'tinga/D7.. what ever you want to call it.
The Klingon Players Want One!
ie: the customer..
all else while supremly entertaining is rubbish.
I think the question is not so much what, because if we did not care we would not be posting so much and, respectfully, "putting our heads together", the question is more the how.