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Forums > Home› Feedback› Klingon Discussion

Some Changes to the Gorn Varanus

SystemSystem Member, NoReporting Posts: 178,019 Arc User
edited February 2011 in Klingon Discussion
Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
Turn Rate: 11
HP: 28500

To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments

  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    What were the arguments against bumping the HP? I had no problem with the turn rate of the Varanus, and liked that it was so mucking big -- the Gorn don't strike me as building small ships. A ship is made unique by its advantages and its disadvantages.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    Finally some good news regarding the Varanus, maybe now ill actually use it for my sci captain, i still think a BOFF layout like the D'kyr is getting would be more suited though, most people seem to think of the gorn as being a more engineer based species and the vulcans more Sci based so wouldnt it make sense for the LTC Engi slot to be used on the Varanus rather than the D'kyr? This would make it subtley diferent to the Fed DSSV and make it feel more like a Gorn ship at the same time.

    Just one more note, if the scale of the ship is being reduced maybe reduce the crew a bit as well as a smaller ship would require less crew.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I'm going to take every opportunity I can to get in the point that all ships could do with one more Lt. Commander slot and one less Ensign slot.

    Makes the game much more fun.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Not having the Gorn vessel yet, I feel really odd chiming in here as I just don't have a basis for my own opinions, but I'd like to weigh this a little more here for a second, as big-TRIBBLE ship sounds better than tiny-little ship when I first heard it here.

    EVERYTHING I have heard relating to the Varanus not being good isn't about the size or the turn speed, but about the usability of it. Practically everyone I've talked to have mentioned that the tick of the heals from the deployed ship healers are waaay too low, or that a quick launch of Beam Fire at Will completely annihilates them. What's going on in this department? Isn't this the more pertinent issue?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Goody!

    When will these changes take affect on Holodeck?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Yes, but the DSSV has not any special power and a console its not a substitute for such a good special skill!

    We are going to the same way we have now on the imbalance cruisers. Look at the "normal" Fed cruisers, same hull and 2 less turn rate than the Negh`Var, and that ship has cloaking device!

    I have a Klingon Vice Admiral and i am on the grind to have a new one, and better ship than the feds its not what we need.

    Any way, good work listing the community, keep at it.

    Mi opinion, the gorn ship should be:
    Turn Rate: 10
    HP: 28500

    Or

    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 27000
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    Thanks for taking the time to look at the Varanus. The problem with low turn rates on a Sci ship is the number of fore facing abilities for science BO's. I know that you have two separate threads one for the D'Kyer and one for the Varanus, but I think some comparison is impossible given that they both at least started out as very similar ships.

    What would be the highest turn rate you are willing to give the Varnaus with its current size? I think a turn rate of 9 on the Varnaus might solve the issues, without forcing you to make it like a DSSV or even an exact copy of the D'kyr.

    I'm inclined to think of the Varanus as a Gorn ship that is built for heavy combat with Science as it's weapons. While the D'Kyr being a Vulcan ship is built to be more a defensive puncher, with Science and Engineering being more tools than weapons. Given this difference I'm inclined to see the Varanus as needing more hull and the D'kyr needing more shields and agility.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    OMG I can't say thankyou enough :)

    This is exactly what was needed, thanks for listening.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    frak wrote: »
    I'm going to take every opportunity I can to get in the point that all ships could do with one more Lt. Commander slot and one less Ensign slot.

    Makes the game much more fun.

    This or the Ensign level BO skills need a revamp.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    Thank you Good Sir :)

    We are happy in the Klingon Empire and in -Qew-

    The Klingon will now come closer to the feds in overall balance :)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I have to really disagree with these changes. The Varunus strikes me as a big ship and to make it smaller and more a copy of a Fed science vessel is a mistake.

    Jack up the HP to what you were planning and maybe improve system targeting a little.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Good call Gecko, thanks :)

    The reasoning on the turn rate issue was: A lot of the science skills are 90 degree fwd arc powers, and the slow turn rate made it inferior to other science ships because those powers are the "meat" of a science ships toolset.

    It looked a little big anyway, and DSSVs aren't exactly small either.


    Congrats to the Gorn engineers, who made a great breakthrough on their engine efficiency!
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    Awesome news

    Thank you very much for listening to the feedback.

    The idea of a large tanking science vessel that can't turn is a nice idea, however without a KDF version of a science vessel like the Recon or intrepid that can give us other options, this ship was always going to be unwanted.

    The federation have 5 science ships to the KDF's one. Also should one consider making another klingon science ship that can't turn to save itself , it needs to have at least 3 engineering consoles.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    forresto wrote: »
    I have to really disagree with these changes. The Varunus strikes me as a big ship and to make it smaller and more a copy of a Fed science vessel is a mistake.

    Jack up the HP to what you were planning and maybe improve system targeting a little.

    The problem is the need for a better turn rate to utilize BO abilities. Sci ships with low turn rates are just sitting ducks. While I agree that shrinking the ship is not my preference, I'd rather see a compromise Since we know the Nebula got a bump to 9
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    I also increased the Nebula base Turn rate by 1, from 8 to 9.

    It would seem fair to make the Varanus a 9 turn rate and keep her bigger. Adjust the HP as needed from there.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    However it is clear that this is not what you want. So what I am going to do is make the Gorn Varanus the same as the DSSV. It will have the same HP and base Turn Rate as the DSSV:
    Turn Rate: 11
    HP: 28500

    To make it not feel goofy, we will be scaling the model size down to about the same mass of the DSSV.

    Thank you so much. Now I can look forward to flying the Varanus again. :D
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I also failed to mention here (I mentioned in another thread), that I doubled the healing of the drones.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    arrrghhh I don't know about thisss... ...

    I like big ships .....
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    I also failed to mention here (I mentioned in another thread), that I doubled the healing of the drones.

    oh but this is most definitely better
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I don't know why some federation players are complaing about these changes.

    The intrepid , DSV and D'Ky are still all vastly superior to this thing.

    I would trade those drones in for a extra engineering console or LTC engineering BO slot any day.

    At least we have a ship that can partially turn, even if its nowhere near that of the intrepid or recon.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Holy smokes, thank you so much (and thank you for listening to the feedback). We can now use this ship!

    *hugs the Gecko*
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Vipermist wrote:
    I don't know why some federation players are complaing about these changes.

    The intrepid , DSV and D'Ky are still all vastly superior to this thing.

    I would trade those drones in for a extra engineering console or LTC engineering BO slot any day.

    At least we have a ship that can partially turn, even if its nowhere near that of the intrepid or recon.


    I know why.

    Fed players know the power of science...with the KDF having a sci ship, that was bad enough...but since it could not turn fast enough to bring to bear Sci powers, it was no threat...now, it will be on par with at least the DSSV...and that alone is something Feds would not like because the DSSV turn rate, after this next boost -- means that it will become a viable ship in PvP once again.

    These changes are most welcome, and will bring improved parity between Fed and KDF in regards to our ability to use and leverage sci abilities.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    I also failed to mention here (I mentioned in another thread), that I doubled the healing of the drones.


    So, lets see this again:

    DSSV and Veranus has same BOffs = Ok
    DSSV and Veranus would have same Hull = Ok
    DSSV and Veranus would have same turn rate = Ok
    Veranus has a special skill and DSSV (????) = bad

    Klingon didnt have scien ship because we have Carriers, and now a Klingon Scien ship outclass a Federation Scien ship..... that its going to bring more balance in to the game.

    You are doing the same thing that its happened now with the Sovereign vs Excelsior thing.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Tiberion1701 wrote:
    \The reasoning on the turn rate issue was: A lot of the science skills are 90 degree fwd arc powers, and the slow turn rate made it inferior to other science ships because those powers are the "meat" of a science ships toolset.

    Okay, I can grok that. I recall the brouhaha back when the Nebula was released as a science cruiser.

    A part of me wishes science powers didn't have that arc restriction, it smacks way too much of Main Deflector Abuse. And the Varanus always struck me as fleet buffs and repairs, rather than offensive science powers, but, that being said, I can see where folks would want to use the Varanus in that role. (Especially since the carrier has a turn rate of 'eventually' and BoPs with science BOffs are rarer than a Jem'Hadar at the Betty Ford Clinic.)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    ZTempest wrote:
    I know why.

    Fed players know the power of science...with the KDF having a sci ship, that was bad enough...but since it could not turn fast enough to bring to bear Sci powers, it was no threat...now, it will be on par with at least the DSSV...and that alone is something Feds would not like because the DSSV turn rate, after this next boost -- means that it will become a viable ship in PvP once again.

    These changes are most welcome, and will bring improved parity between Fed and KDF in regards to our ability to use and leverage sci abilities.

    Bullcrap.. Im Fed, while My fleet is primarily Fed based.

    I agreed with the QEW guys regarding this ship, and Ill take your apology for generalization now, thank you.

    These changes should prove most enlightening for us All.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Cerritouru wrote: »
    So, lets see this again:

    DSSV and Veranus has same BOffs = Ok
    DSSV and Veranus would have same Hull = Ok
    DSSV and Veranus would have same turn rate = Ok
    Veranus has a special skill and DSSV (????) = bad

    Klingon didnt have scien ship because we have Carriers, and now a Klingon Scien ship outclass a Federation Scien ship..... that its going to bring more balance in to the game.

    You are doing the same thing that its happened now with the Sovereign vs Excelsior thing.

    Hmm you forgot something

    DSSV has a extra Eng console and Varanus (????) = bad

    2 bad makes a Ok
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Cerritouru wrote: »
    So, lets see this again:

    DSSV and Veranus has same BOffs = Ok
    DSSV and Veranus would have same Hull = Ok
    DSSV and Veranus would have same turn rate = Ok
    Veranus has a special skill and DSSV (????) = bad

    Klingon didnt have scien ship because we have Carriers, and now a Klingon Scien ship outclass a Federation Scien ship..... that its going to bring more balance in to the game.

    You are doing the same thing that its happened now with the Sovereign vs Excelsior thing.

    It doesnt outclass the DSSV. The DSSV has an extra engineering console, which personally I would rather have than the repair drones.



    Otherwise theyre equal
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Tidemand82 wrote: »
    Hmm you forgot something

    DSSV has a extra Eng console and Varanus (????) = bad

    2 bad makes a Ok


    Hoooo wooooow.. so at that point we came dawn that we compear one console with a special skill that its getting a buffed x 2????

    I have 2 Klingons, and i want to play PVP vs feddis, and if is hard now to get in queue, if we keep getting better ships, this is going to be impossible, but go ahead, flame me... but please, give me a better reason that “this special power that its getting buffed x 2 its balance with this console”

    Beagles wrote: »
    It doesnt outclass the DSSV. The DSSV has an extra engineering console, which personally I would rather have than the repair drones.

    Otherwise theyre equal


    Do not insult me with that argument, a special skill that now its x2 its not the same as a console. Give me another reason, hell i would buy "mi reason its that i find fun to win 15x0 each arena and i want to keep it that way", but please, dont tell me that one console its a balance stuff, beacose i could tell that the Varanus has 750 crew over the 500 of the DSSV.
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    Here is an argument then:

    That engineering console can be used to:

    -Add weapon power, doing more damage (multiplied by the new sensor ability)
    -Add hull resistance +18. This can equate to about 10% hull resist without BO powers. Assuming its 35000, this would be 3500 hull.

    Considering the repair drones do about 28 hull a tick, were now "almost doubled" so about 50 a tick....

    3500/50 = 70 ticks just to make that resistance up. How long does that take? 40 seconds with two drones?

    And crew does nothing...how do you not know this?
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    I just hope that CaptainGeko doesn’t buy that, for the sake of the fun, i dont want to have better ships because we have some lack of content.

    I give mi opinion, and Geko has done a fantastic job listening to the community, so now its on his decision. If he think i am right, we do change some things, i am not right, i still think Geko its doing a grate job, even if he could give the Sovereign a little more love, jeje ;)
  • Archived PostArchived Post Member Posts: 2,264,498 Arc User
    edited February 2011
    CaptainGeko wrote:
    Many have brought up the concern that the Gorn Varanus is very hindered as a science vessel with such a slow turn rate. The reason the Gorn Varanus has such a slow turn rate is because it is such a big ship. Big ships just don’t feel or look right with high turn rates. What big ships do in general get instead is more HP. I was going to give the Gorn Varanus 36000 HP, the highest of any science vessel.

    im glad stuff like this matters to you, and hopefully other devs. ships shouldn't be flying contradictions. i think a better solution would be to increase the fireing arc of some science powers on that ship rather than shrinking its size and health. it could be another bonus feature.

    personally i think the gorn ship should have been a cruiser all along, with the orian ship being science. when i think gorn i think tank. orians seem more sneaky and self serving and wouldn't put them self's in a position to draw fire and support others. but that ship probably sailed a long time ago
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