Ultimate Substance

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

Limit digging to 100 digs per char per day.

Deja vu... I remember how back in the day this used to be a legit nerf request. When everybody had Windsprint Panthers and mat routes and it was an endless race for the spawn points.

This is old PW right here, making a somewhat-cameo. xD

seitori wrote: »

You do realize? That I posted my last comment on this, as a way to combat a possible future overblown spikes in Subs costs?? {b:faint} And not, I repeat Not, as a whiney Sss'd ~give me free stuff cry~??? (Most times I feel the same way you do when I'd hear people constantly crying for them (I didn't mind some of them, when sparkie would give out certain 1s, but the others were handed out way to often) so would you please see it for what it was, because you kinda jumped to a completely Wrong Conclusions on its meaning...b:surrender


Now let me say this though, I Do actually Exist in this game... And I do actually farm just about every ****** thing I go out to get in it (and considering I have over "21-characters on 2-accounts & 3-servers" thats no small feat for me (in my absolutely insanely & blindly tenacious attempt to keep them all "up-to-date" and as "non-suck actually decently geared and skilled non-fails babies") Sure I do use the Boutique on rare occasion for their "fashions, dyes, charms & other certain necessities for them etc." but only on a rare occasion (do to me having craploads of "RL bills" to pay for my Family & Household costs) so please don't think that I'm being a whiner who only wants everything handed to them for free (I too would rather work for it) the point of my former post, was solely meant to point out a possible way to combat the possibility of future price gouging on [Ult. Subs] (since Wanmei was so kind to (*Coughs ~_~*) pull the rug out on the Nirvi part of the rewards, that we were all getting from our BHs that many had been using to make subs with) and nothing else...


Now as for your idea on being awarded subs as part of the BH rewards, thats an excellent idea (even better then my own possible thoughts on it) that would help greatly, in squashing much of the possibilities of too much "price gouging" and would be an incredible long term counter to it to boot, so I give you Kudos for giving out a better idea then my own...b:thanks

Excuse me but you personalized this and it does make you come across somewhat like an entitled whiner. You stated you have RL obligations, responsibilities, and bills and that detracts you from managing your 20+ chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers. Who put you in that position to begin with?

Still, if you can't afford the time and effort into taking care of all those chars in 3 servers without free handouts then maybe you shouldn't be doing that in the first place. Think about it.

As for prices, those are set by players who are willing to pay such prices. If someone is gouging then others will undercut them. I do that all the time. I love undercutting people and making a profit.

teethewicked wrote: »

Amusing how so many people are whining about how "subs should be farmed/earned not given for free". In that case, then let's take the Ecstasy/Excitement Cards, Mirages, Chip, etc from the BH 100 reward. Hell, let's take EVERYTHING from the BH 100 reward, and have it give just exp and spirit like the other BH's do. After all, if the nirvana talismans given as part of the reward are "free subs for nothing" then everything else given out as part of the reward is "free stuff for nothing."

Farm mirages the old fashioned way with the celestones and drops. Get chips from the cube, socket stones from the boutique, rep from farming the badges that rarely drop from instance mobs. After all, we are entitled to say that just because something wasn't available to us "back in the day" that nobody else should have it. Progress is bad when it comes after our time!

Bottom line is that, aside from the one you got daily from "Mysterious Priest", the Nirvana Talismans were hardly "free stuff for putting forth no effort". Unless you are all saying that BH100 is "putting forth no effort"?

Nobody is whining about the subs except those who think they ought to be getting them for free. It's really sad to see how people have no clue how to obtain something easily farmed from the environment like subs. They have no clue how to get them because they always received that free handout. It's the old saying "give a man a fish and feed him for a day but teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime" thing.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Nobody is whining about the subs except those who think they ought to be getting them for free.

Assumption. Unless you can read minds, and across an internet connection at that, you don't know what anyone thinks. And regardless of whether or not people do "think they should get subs for free" the matter is they generally had to put forth the effort of running BH 100 to get them, so your point is for the most part moot as they were never "free/effortless". Of course, I personally think that subs were easier to obtain via tokens, or farming the mats, as opposed to BH100. EU/AEU aren't exactly easy or newbie-friendly and Snakefist can't be solo'd for the average player, while the coin for the tokens can be earned with a single lvl 7x Jones alt, and farming mats really isn't that hard in Heaven/Hell where the mats respawn quicker than one can pick them. So as much as I don't agree with you for the most part, sadly I do have to agree with you that, it is likely that many of the people complaining are lazy and entitled. Though, you kinda have to blame PW for that as well, with making the game so daily-centric. People don't want to have to put fort any extra time or effort when they could be doing the rest of their dailies instead. Nobody can just have fun....

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

It's really sad to see how people have no clue how to obtain something easily farmed from the environment like subs. They have no clue how to get them because they always received that free handout.

Again, BH100 is hardly a "free handout". I think your attitude is just as entitled as the people you are complaining about(And so is mine b:shutup )
I haven't seen anyone complaining "they have no clue" how to obtain subs outside of BH100 reward. The complaints are that subs are more of a pain to get because of having to take the extra time and effort, after BH100, to go farm mats or coin for them.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

It's the old saying "give a man a fish and feed him for a day but teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime" thing.

That has absolutely nothing to do with anything ere in this thread. Any more than the old saying "if you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you gonna love anybody else, can I get an amen?" b:chuckle

__Sami__ - Archosaur wrote: »

Couple of things. AEU might not be completely noob friendly but trough average gear running around the servers, as long as you have some idea what you are doing, getting trough that should be no problem, pretty much no matter what gear you running in as the OPs will clear the instance for you. All you gotta do is follow and not do something silly to kill yourself.

EU? You could run in the free 95 Morai gear no problem trough that instance. I remember farming the instance when it came out, man did we run it in **** gear and it was all good. The problem with EU really is people, not the instance itself. Its pretty damn simple, doesnt demand much gear and for that I would call it noob friendly.

And snake can be soloed by average geared players these days. WS is extremely outdated as an instance. Well I should say ranged players can solo snake, he is bit of a **** on melee range. Clearing the pav itself might take a while but I dont really understand why soloing snake is even important in this discussion.

I was more pointing out reasons why I think that subs are easier to obtain via tokens or mats. I've never been to EU/AEU, but I always am hearing about how hard AEU is, and how EU is so annoying with the beginning race or something. I have been 100 for ages and still haven't been able to get a squad for either, since people seem to not want to take anyone who's never done the instance. As for Snake, I was under the impression that solo'ing him required T3 or better with high refines and shards. But even if one is able to consistently do all four BH100's, I still think subs are easier to get via tokens or mats, especially right now with tokens having dropped to 15-16K(at least on RT)

Bellarie - Raging Tide wrote: »

I was more pointing out reasons why I think that subs are easier to obtain via tokens or mats. I've never been to EU/AEU, but I always am hearing about how hard AEU is, and how EU is so annoying with the beginning race or something. I have been 100 for ages and still haven't been able to get a squad for either, since people seem to not want to take anyone who's never done the instance. As for Snake, I was under the impression that solo'ing him required T3 or better with high refines and shards. But even if one is able to consistently do all four BH100's, I still think subs are easier to get via tokens or mats, especially right now with tokens having dropped to 15-16K(at least on RT)

Ah. EU isnt even remotely difficult if you have an idea what you are doing. It is annoying for being once a day instance with BH in it as people are simply stupid and incompetent. And AEU was only difficult when ppl were running with 6k hp on average and the R9s were sort of rare. But nowdays they are plenty and pretty much all you would need to do in AEU is to follow the OPs and not do silly things to die. Reading some guides to have idea how the instances go would also be helpful. I cant speak for RT but as long as you are being polite, show decent ability to communicate, I dont see much of a reason why people wouldnt take you and show you how its done. But telling you are first timer is imo best for all, it lets whoever is running the instance to know to explain things to you.

And snake, the boss itself, could be soloed by N3+5. It would take a while, it wouldnt be kind to your charms/pots but it would be doable on range as he really doesnt hit all that hard. You might need full buffs but those arent all that hard to get these days. It would be more bout the effort to clear the path than the boss itself.

BH's can all be done without subs, pick squad, med boss, med mobs. Only really need subs for gears and TT farming. Any TT you farm will net profits after sub costs.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Yes it does. If one knew that subs could be farmed they'd always have subs, correct? They wouldn't complain about sub prices skyrocketing or the erroneous notion of lack of availability of subs because talismans are gone, would they?

It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to farm 10 subs using multiple routes. Talimans give out 5 each. Now if you have 20+chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers and a who lot of real world obligations farming them for all chars might be an issue. A solution is to not have 20+ chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers. That is a merely a choice that person made.

Video or you lying. Even King's Feast with the best sub route will take you much longer. So unless you using telestones ++ jumping around the map... you lying. 10 subs is 50 each mat.... 15 to 20 mins, no.

For some additional math on that. it's 250 total mats for 10 subs/ 25 per... if it takes 10 second to dig each one = 2500 seconds = 40 mins... maybe 30 if you happen to get 2 on a dig. But then travel and respawn times.

eeepsilon wrote: »

Pretty much this

And also she/he has not taken the bot factor into account. A real player can not beat an army of bots, and pwi will not ban some of their ''loyal'' costumer for some bots. b:bye

Well I was mistaken on my stuff. It's 20 mats per sub so like 33 mins not counting anyone else already farmed, travel time etc etc etc.... but you know what I'm saying

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Yes it does. If one knew that subs could be farmed they'd always have subs, correct? They wouldn't complain about sub prices skyrocketing or the erroneous notion of lack of availability of subs because talismans are gone, would they?

It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to farm 10 subs using multiple routes. Talimans give out 5 each. Now if you have 20+chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers and a who lot of real world obligations farming them for all chars might be an issue. A solution is to not have 20+ chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers. That is a merely a choice that person made.

You want to farm my subs for me? I use easily over 60 subs/day of 2x and as we had month of 2x during summer lately, I will likely be burning ~2k. On top of that, Id need another thousand or two for crafting gear to sell. 2k + 1k = 3k, which is low end estimate. Even at 15mins per 10 subs, we get to 4500 minutes, which is 75 hours of sub farming, no breaks included. Sound appealing? And remember, in reality I am gonna need way more, even double that might be possible.


Farming subs is doable if you are only gearing yourself and you need reasonable amount of subs. The big time farmers or gear crafters or ones like me who do both, use massive amounts of subs. Either bot legions provide subs for us or token prices will be affected when 2x is activated as there is simply no other means to provide for said demand. Because of this I would of loved if they had added sub option to BH100 rewards.

peckked wrote: »

The big time farmers can afford to make subs with tokens >.> You get 2x subs for 7 tokens... that's currently less than people pay for openers.

That was clearly not my point. My point was, we will be affecting token prices. Hard to say how drastically as of yet.

Ps. If you think the ppl WCing for openers are major farmers, lol.

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

BH's can all be done without subs, pick squad, med boss, med mobs. Only really need subs for gears and TT farming. Any TT you farm will net profits after sub costs.



Video or you lying. Even King's Feast with the best sub route will take you much longer. So unless you using telestones ++ jumping around the map... you lying. 10 subs is 50 each mat.... 15 to 20 mins, no.

For some additional math on that. it's 250 total mats for 10 subs/ 25 per... if it takes 10 second to dig each one = 2500 seconds = 40 mins... maybe 30 if you happen to get 2 on a dig. But then travel and respawn times.

I only farmed HH 1000+ times before 2012. It took the instance 30 minutes to reset. That was before I made HH openers. I ran the routes 1000s of times for subs and always had time to wait for the instance to open after making subs. Making 100s of millions in coin before 2012 was a godsend for profit. I haven't done much since. I'm pretty much qualified to know what the hell I'm talking about. Only times it took me longer was when I dealt with PKers stealing my routes.

eeepsilon wrote: »

Pretty much this

And also she/he has not taken the bot factor into account. A real player can not beat an army of bots, and pwi will not ban some of their ''loyal'' costumer for some bots. b:bye

I've never seen any bot farming mats for subs. Ever. Not on LC. I've seen herb farming bots. Killed a few. But never bots farming subs. Hardly an issue for us.

__Sami__ - Archosaur wrote: »

You want to farm my subs for me? I use easily over 60 subs/day of 2x and as we had month of 2x during summer lately, I will likely be burning ~2k. On top of that, Id need another thousand or two for crafting gear to sell. 2k + 1k = 3k, which is low end estimate. Even at 15mins per 10 subs, we get to 4500 minutes, which is 75 hours of sub farming, no breaks included. Sound appealing? And remember, in reality I am gonna need way more, even double that might be possible.


Farming subs is doable if you are only gearing yourself and you need reasonable amount of subs. The big time farmers or gear crafters or ones like me who do both, use massive amounts of subs. Either bot legions provide subs for us or token prices will be affected when 2x is activated as there is simply no other means to provide for said demand. Because of this I would of loved if they had added sub option to BH100 rewards.

Again who's problem is it when one makes more chars than they have time to deal with? Farm your own ****.

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Still calling bull sht in 10 subs in 15 to 20 mins.... 200 mats taking 10 secs each to dig... + travel... but you always did have a way of embellishing... video or else lying.... You trying to talk about tt resets still doesn't make you any more believable.

Ok. I ain't sittin' on this sideline. I just ran some route just to see for myself. 1st route took me 27.7 minutes to farm 10 subs. Double picks were happening about one of every 4 to 5 digs.

2nd run took less time. 24.9 minutes. Reason. I had leftovers of some of the double picks from the first run. 3rd run 25.3 minutes. 4th run 24.9 minutes. 5th 25.5 minutes.

Now since you calling the other a liar then I suppose I can sit here and call you a liar too. can't I. Because you're both wrong.

Don't you feel a tad dumb for lowering yourself to that level?

Oh. And I tell you all something too. The price of subs didn't fall back in the day because people figured out how to make subs with tokens. The prices fell because people figured out they can make BH wines with tokens. Then all of the sudden there wasn't that much competition between wine farmers and sub farmers. I was one of those who made wines by farmin mats. My market crashed with the introduction of anni packs.

Oh, come to think of it, Jadsia. I remember you too. You were dealing BH wines too. You were KOS by RQ and 3 other factions for undercutting every catshop selling wines. Don't you think we didn't forget that.

It is interesting, most people can't understand what is this problem about. Free players farm everything, spend much time on farming, so now 1 more thing to farm instead of being free. To make a g16 piece you have to farm tt/lunar for mats, nw, warsong, and lunar for EoD's but yes, simplify this as "no afforts":D. It means you need more time to spend on farming what u could spend for talk, help others, or simply play for enjoy the game. Because free players are paying too - with their time. There was an item what was free and it is not free anymore, you cant count with it. All can decide their time worths or not to farm more in the future but all have the opportunity to be disappointed about it and tell it here, because it is a forum.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

I've never seen any bot farming mats for subs. Ever. Not on LC. I've seen herb farming bots. Killed a few. But never bots farming subs. Hardly an issue for us.

Please wait a week or two. Once sub prices go through the roof, botting mats becomes profitable, bot-owners switch routes. Not surprising that the practise was abandoned after talismans, you'd be getting more from npc'ing the mats at <20k per sub.

the entire idea of this post is lazy as posible... it's a simple solution... maybe a liitle old fashion but here goes: you get off your lazy rear ends and farm the mats

or you can pay the price that the catshops sell them at

if I ran a catshop for subs, I'd be raising the price of them too...

b:chuckle b:chuckle b:chuckle

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

I see people complaining about where they are going to get subs now that talismans are gone.

When they say they "don't know where to get subs now", I believe they mean they don't know where they are going to get subs without having to do something that isn't one of the bajillion dailies they do on 5+ toons.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

If one knew that subs could be farmed they'd always have subs, correct? They wouldn't complain about sub prices skyrocketing or the erroneous notion of lack of availability of subs because talismans are gone, would they?

It takes me 15 to 20 minutes to farm 10 subs using multiple routes. Talimans give out 5 each. Now if you have 20+chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers and a who lot of real world obligations farming them for all chars might be an issue. A solution is to not have 20+ chars on 2 accounts in 3 servers. That is a merely a choice that person made.

People are entitled and don't like having to take extra time and effort to farm something that was once offered as an bonus reward to one of the bajillion dailies they do on 5+ toons. I suppose I'm lucky that my mental issues make playing more casually my only decent option. Spending more than a few hours in the game is difficult for me, even with alternate stimuli to break the monotony, and the concept of dailies has always been something less appealing to me. After doing daily BH100(assuming it's TT or Snakefist) and Lyceum I can't be bothered to do any other dailies. I have been 100 rebirthed for about two months now and have only done the primal dailies 2 or 3 times, not counting active point use. My biggest daily is Lyceum, as a big pokenerd I'm all about evolving every pet possible. And currently I am focused on trying to get BH100 done when I can as the potential funds from Mirages/Cards help, and my Psychic(who is my main) is now in his 80's and the spirit items from BH2 are a big help.

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Any TT you farm will net profits after sub costs.

I have to disagree. Green mats may be potential money, but one has to actually sell them to net any profit at all. With how flooded the market seems to be with any green mat that isn't from bosses exclusive to squad mode 2-x/3-x, and with qsm gear devaluing anything not used for the eventual TT99, that can be quite the lengthy process. I've spent over a week catshopping for a few hours each day and not sold a single green mat. That kind of time could likely have earned more than the mats would have made me if I had pursued other methods. I have better results picking herbs and mats in Heaven/Hell and selling them to 1KS catshops. Personally, I think TT is no longer an effective money maker compared to other, easier methods.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

Again who's problem is it when one makes more chars than they have time to deal with? Farm your own ****.

This, +Infinity. Don't make 5+toons if you don't want to have to do a bajillion dailies on each and then still take the time to farm for things the dailies don't give you.