Thoughts on the latest patch...

Evryn - Morai · June 2015

I'm not usually one for a rant. And if you don't like rants, stop reading here...

I'm not at all happy with the latest update. To be honest, it's downright demoralizing me. I've worked my butt off over the past 4 months to farm R9 together. One MOG sale from completing it. I figured, after that, I'll see about refining my gear a bit, kitting out my alts so they can level themselves on autoculti a bit at break-even or tiny profit, and then work on getting the NW ornies or a bigger cube neck - to try and catch up to the endgame folk. You know, get to the level you need to be to be able to participate in PvP events and not feel like a damned paper doll.

What do I see now?
- Sockets for ornies. That give spirit, deflvls, or att lvls. Great, thanks. That will help level the playing field PWI. That kind of raising the bar to catch up is a REAL draw for newer players. Gives them something to look forward to - namely an infinity of farming or receivership if you're a creditcard warrior instead.
Not to say the people who do have money are not spending it. The amount of red announcements in the worldchannel on Morai is high. Very high.

- Potions with 0 value. This was one of the few things that you could still break even with on autoculti as a less powerful toon. Those who can oneshot stuff don't get hit, so their repair costs are nil. But players with characters who do get hit a lot, such as barbarians, BMs, seekers? They'll no longer break even on repairs. They'll have to farm to even be able to maintain their toon. That's work. Not play. Noone likes that.
Also, the only bots that can run a good profit now, are the auto-mining ones. Cheat-bots needed for automagic moneymaking again. And it shows.

- No more Ultimate Substance rewards from the BH bosses through the Nirvana Talismans. I suppose noone added them to the BH TT quest-taking rewards either. This will hurt players who try to work their way forward in the game by running Twilight Temple a lot. I'm lucky that I saw this coming and have a huge reserve by now, but it's another thing that will hurt newer players who still need to work on basic G15/G16 gear.

All in all, with the latest update, I see PWI setting a trend that requires the absolute top to spend a crapload to remain there, and totally ignores the starting players. It is a strategy that will lead to a small elite group, a declining playerbase, no new or returning players... it is not sustainable. Once a playerbase becomes too small in an MMORPG, the world will feel empty.
I don't want PWI to head there. Give folk a chance to catch up - heck, even your whales want that, it's the only way that they'll have some competition!

Some suggestions to solve this:
- Eliminate or severely reduce repair costs. They hurt starting or struggling players the most, by far.
- Eliminate the Jolly Jones cash grant on taking the 7 bounty tickets, and double the reward from doing the bounties.
- Eliminate the need for Ultimate Substances to open ANY level of Twilight Temple, including the extra bosses.
- Provide an easy way to obtain the Accessory Socket Stones and the basic Magic/Phys def stones that you can socket in there. Maybe via the Resource War rewards, or through the Undercurrent Hall. So that players can work on getting these instead of having to resort to the boutique - which feels a little like extortion.
- Reduce the NPC value for mineable goods (herbs, coal, wood etc) to 1. Also reduce the NPC value of the half-fabricates (Budda Wood, Gold Bar, Cloud Muslin etc) to 1 coin to prevent mining bots from being able to profit directly from these. It won't solve the issue of them auto-mining herbs, then selling useful potions to other players instead however.

Seekertom - Sanctuary · June 2015

wery good post .. addressed most of the issues I have and offered good suggestion on possible fixes.

thumbs up to you.

I hope someone who can do sonething about this situation willl see and heed, but honestly after over 7 yrs in game on diff servers, i don't think that will happen

XxWilxX - Heavens Tear · June 2015

The Whole update can be reduced in "Boutique update" that's all..

Paiikea - Archosaur · June 2015

agreed with everything op said. I too am at the point where i just need a mog sale to get my r9 armors and now im just thinking whats the point. I may have been able to carry on but the whole socketing ornies came out at a super bad time for me. Why...because just a few days before this update a certain korean mmo that deals with martial arts just got announced that its coming to eu/na b:dirty This update just kinda sealed my fate.. i'll probably stick around till it releases, but pwi isnt doing much to keep me playing at least for dailies after said game comes out.

mulier · June 2015

subs back to 150k+ is actually a good thing for new players... but yeh...

another good thing with packs at 20silver - gonna be alot more event items circulating. whats bad here?

new sockets stones in packs .. well thatsb:shocked - but was to be expected

Evryn - Morai · June 2015

mulier wrote: »

subs back to 150k+ is actually a good thing for new players..

No, it's not. New players start out in TT gear by the time they reach 100. They need subs. Higher prices on those will hurt them being able to get basic endgame gear. They'll be stuck in Morai 95 through their first and possibly second rebirth, and get oneshotted by bosses that barely scratch the majority of characters (IE FSP frog boss and anything else with strong aoes).

I will grab them axes yet, then probably revert to very casual, if at all, play. Will test the NW, but if it'll get even worse then it does now.. I'll withdraw from PvP entirely and stick to PvE with a few close friends - thus eliminating one player for the stronger folk to shoot at in the NW. Might be a drop in the ocean, but still... a trend. Once a certain crowdfunded spacesim RPG comes out, I'll likely be a goner.

Bhavyy - Raging Tide · June 2015

Why is everyone so upset now?
This has been the same kind of update as the last idk how many...?
You either cash shop or farm something boring and monotonous/catshop merch for the coins till you drop for this game to be any fun.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver · June 2015

Sockets For Ornies - Agreed, but meh gives us more to work toward, but yea... too much to work toward can indeed be a double edged sword. Some mountains/changes can easily make the average person shy away, but generally the ones who do/are able to climb it can and will... and they will also be stronger in the end if they can accomplish such a feat.

Potions Value Down to 0 = yea that sucked, but not the end of the world, I can stop picking up all those that drop for my alts when I run them through their bhs for neumas on my main. (A lot of people were begging for a coin sink, I guess this is pwe's way of giving people what they want slowly... value of coin is definitely being effected by all the changes they have done.)

Nirvy Talisman Removed Again oh well, life goes on, there are still ways of making them if they become too expensive to just buy. -

That being said it would indeed be nice if they'd remove the cost for opening TT's.

Deadalus - Harshlands · June 2015

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

- Sockets for ornies.

Well i think thats just how MMORPG´s are supposed to be. you can work on your gear further and further.
This complain is ONLY reasonable because ALL THE ITEMS NEEDED are in packs and in packs only.
Thats my complain about that too but the idea itself is fine as it is.

- Potions with 0 value.

Basicly a non factor and adding auto cultivation to the table just makes you look sad.
When you still use auto cultivaton to make some coins, reconsider your thoughts. when you doing it for exp, go ahead and afk get some exp but standing around in realm will probably give you about the same exp with no repair fee at all.

- No more Ultimate Substance rewards from the BH bosses through the Nirvana Talismans.

Understandable but yet again, nitpicking about things that where added some years ago and crashed the substance market.
Do you see the coincident? your first point was "we dont get any money from potions". now this is something you need no brain for and get coins. yet you complain.
Way to go sir, way to go.

My OPINION is in yellow. b:bye

GingerSprite - Sanctuary · June 2015

The only real impact this has is to leave the free-to-play layers in the dust.

If you're going to QQ about not making coins on auto-culti, so sad. Sucks to be you, and you were ruining our economy anyhow. (which is the reason for the price nerf on all mob drops in the first place.)

For subs, meh. Just farm them the old way. OMG, you might have to put some effort into something.

Sockets for ornaments, overall is pretty stupid. Since the items are all in packs, it's just another money grab, and part of the insane levels of power creep that exist in this title. Will only really matter in PvP anyway, so just continues to kill another aspect of this game that stopped being fun a few years ago.
It's not leveling any playing field at all. It's making it more obscenely gapped.

avs33fan · June 2015

I agree with everything you posted.
The pots being ZERO I seen coming. Whatever makes players money, PWE gets rid of, or makes it easily available that the value is brought down

Before it was 1 step forward 2 steps back when farming gear. This new stuff its 1 step forward 3 steps back.

Also, the ****** Duke spam is ****, from packs and from the COA event.

The assist attack thing on mobs now. Turning this off would be a nice addition I havent talked to 1 person who likes it or finds it useful.

Evryn - Morai · June 2015

I am using autoculti as an example. If you can't break even on autoculti, you won't be able to break even on manual in dungeons either by picking up the stray drops. The point I was trying to make is not "I can't press F12 for free coins", but "I am seeing that actually repairing all my gear from adventuring is costing more then I'm getting from selling what I pick up".

That aside, I will run a few tests on autoculti to validate my feeling that it's no longer a break even thing. Will post back the results, going to need a day to test this properly.

Unrelated: Better get rid of all the jades in your inventory before those get zerod too. b:laugh

orangeladey · June 2015

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

...smip...
That will help level the playing field PWI.
...snip...

(EDIT: I refer to PW in this not as shorthand for PWI but as the gameworld itself)

Okay, I do agree wiith most of what you are saying. Some of it does not apply to how I take enjoy ment from this game, but that is my bias, not yours. That phrase however hits one of my own rant buttons.

Why should PW's concern be a level playing field? What should make an mmo successful with a playerbase is a diversity and accessability of gameplay at ALL Levels.

For years I've thought it too late to fix pw's real problem. And there isn't a way to fix the problem with players either.

Those problems are fast leveling, and the idea of reaching 'end-game', respectively.

People think of winning when it comes to games, but there is no true winner in MMO's since they should continue theoreically forever. So instead of taking the time to enjoy the game, the world, people try to race to the end. They may or may not invest money in the game, but they do not invest themselves, which gives them less incentive to stick around once they reach 'The End'.

Who cares about the original Dragon Quests anymore? I'm probably an extreme minority, but it felt sooo good to earn my Penetrator bow, and my Bracers of Blood Moon. I was incredibly frustrated by how many genies I needed to use to stay in the level range where the items were useful, and that got harder as the game changed things for faster leveling.

PW Does not want a level playing field.

To be a vital living game PW wants players at all levels. It needs plenty of things to occupy players at all levels. And it needs equal contribution from all levels. Much of that is lacking and so much of PW is barren of players, and rather lonely for those starting out.

A 'Level Playing Fireld' is dull and boring.

Everyone in top gear? Fighting against the RNG rather than skill? Get's pretty repetitive. And it's daunting for people who can't get there fast. And frustrating. And frustration drives more people away than inspires them to work-play harder.

The top hierarchy in an MMO should be elite. It should be the smallest percentage of a playerbase, the top of the pyramid. But that REQUIRES a large base of mid-level range, and even more low level.

But what about the money?

Yes the game needs money to keep running. But consider if you knew that at a minimum it took a year to get to 100, no way faster - but that, for example, you'd need 120$ to purchase your top level gear, would putting 10$ a month towards that future goal be quite so daunting? It is not a mindset most people take. But we plan our builds, it is a similar thing. And on PWs side it would be a more consistent income than surges of 100$ that likely occcur. But if you can encourage this sort of planning from a low level, it encourages people to keep playing, and if they keep playing and setting up their gear-nestegg, that would be more income.

*Le sigh* I sure can be an idealist.

A lot of my concepts do hinge on eliminating fast leveling. Making leveling a side effect rather than the goal. Proportionally we have too many top level players, to change things, it is too late.

As it stands PWI has to do something to keep the players it has, to keep them involved. Those are mostly the ones who have already payed quite a bit. So they are likely to keep paying, and once again narrow the support base beneath them.

There is merit in a lot of the points in the OP, but they are once again all symptoms of the playerbase PWI created. (Except the removal of prices from the Apthecary NPCs, that is just wrong.)

b:surrender I still play this game for the "Ooo, pretty!"

Evryn - Morai · June 2015

I've never said that players who buy a ton of gear with cash shouldn't be getting an advantage. The problem is that the gap between the server elite and the rest is becoming so severe that the elites are literally becoming untouchable to anyone but their own, small group. Even on a populated server like Morai, the server top has trouble finding PvP outside of their own cluster of players - in my opinion, probably because noone else will bother to fight them, 'cause there is no point. When you as an arcane toon hit something in HA for 200 damage per hit, or a phys DD that tries to attack an AA toon and does only that much... you have to stop and consider, if the basic rock-paper-scissors balance between the various classes isn't getting disrupted.

I see examples a plenty like that in the NW. A single OP sin soloing an NW tower map. 20 players shooting at him - to no effect. Debuffs, purge... no effect. And the sin just ignores it all as if he's a barb and just takes out the 9 towers. When I see stuff like that, I know there's something wrong. But I don't have a solution to that one.

Sylvae - Sanctuary · June 2015

Honestly it's mostly about choosing the gear path that most likely will be least affected by updates. So while the ornie socketing might seem a big deal, it really isn't since the game is giving us cards to catch up. Whereas before we'd have to spend to get decent cards to catch up, more and more those are just being handed to us. The ornie socketing is doing nothing but putting back in that gap that they removed by handing out cards.

So long as they mitigate one advantage at the same time they introduce another, new players won't be any worse off against end game at all. It'll just be the same in a different way, that also gets the whales to pony up some money to keep it going.

hiyoga789 · June 2015

No point in pwi for me atleast, I just wish a game with similar pk style comes up. There is no point after all pk is just dyeing and pve is getting more lame and after this post lol yepb:bye

Jadsia - Lost City · June 2015

About the subs, farm them like we used to back in the day. Believe it or not there was a time before Talismans and packs. The game environment still provides a way to get them for free unless you think your time is worth money when playing an MMO.

I too was put off by the zero value for pots. I'm saving those now to sell in my catshop. I'm sure someone with an autopot stone could use them.

I just completed my bot test. I'm nv3 geared. Just completed 5 hours and 38 minutes. After repair costs I made a 331.7K profit. An advantage as a caster I suppose.

brontolith · June 2015

The removal of subs from nirvy talismans was announced as a coming thing quite awhile ago. I prepared and stocked up, now I can profit.

Darkette - Sanctuary · June 2015

Even though I've briefly tried other big-name MMOs from time to time, I've always returned these past six years to PWI because I enjoy the graphics, animations, the vibrant environment, the mechanics, and mostly the fact there were things to do, aside from continually fighting, like crafting and herb gathering. In short, PWI offered me an open world I could kind of live in. I've tried PWI knock offs, but the instant gratification and automatic end-game gear became a quick turnoff for me because those versions of PWI really cater to the PvP crowd, something I don't particularly enjoy.

That said, those other PWI versions are looking more promising every day, by comparison to our current iteration. The things I enjoyed most -- crafting, herb gathering, and grinding (yes, I enjoy that) have become pointless. Nearly every aspect of this game has become a money grab -- and yeah I know this game's operators aren't directly to blame for the changes, but they sure as hell are benefiting from them.

So I ask the question: why should I continue to pump money into this version of PWI when I can go elsewhere and have top-rate gear and very nearly the same experience for a lot less money? Why stay here when I can go do the same mundane dailies somewhere else.

And, yeah, I also know not to let the door slam my behind on my way out.

Colum - Raging Tide · June 2015

It is a fact that everything OP said has a point.

I don't mind getting a gear upgrade itself, but there are TWO major problems coming with it because Wanmei doesn't improve the gameplay itself - with instances left unadjusted and low level PVP dead it will increase power creep. That is a fact you cannot deny.

Other major problem is the fact they're only in packs.

As for the potions, I do see the impact. I have no low level alts. What do I do with the less effective pots now? They're no good for use and I can sell them for nothing. Depressing. I've also talked to newer players and they seem concerned and often ask how can they earn more money.

Sub farming.. been there done that. I liked the talisman way much better.

Toliman - Raging Tide · June 2015

Colum - Raging Tide wrote: »

It is a fact that everything OP said has a point.

I don't mind getting a gear upgrade itself, but there are TWO major problems coming with it because Wanmei doesn't improve the gameplay itself - with instances left unadjusted and low level PVP dead it will increase power creep. That is a fact you cannot deny.

Other major problem is the fact they're only in packs.

As for the potions, I do see the impact. I have no low level alts. What do I do with the less effective pots now? They're no good for use and I can sell them for nothing. Depressing. I've also talked to newer players and they seem concerned and often ask how can they earn more money.

Sub farming.. been there done that. I liked the talisman way much better.

Materials farming ...

I know, that it is possible.

You can sell dropped from mobs materials and use them in crafting process.

Of course, crafting require presence of player near keyboard, but how else you can play game ?

jyzero1 · June 2015

I don't see this game as something you grind for hours on end. Maybe just a 30 min to 1 hour type deal where any time spent after the first hour doing dailies and events provides severely diminishing returns. Mid level instances need to provide worthwhile rewards .... (not nuemas catering to high levels only ffs), and they need to implement more mid-level restricted events . Of course, to do that, they also need to slow down the rate of levelling which doesn't seem likely to happen anytime soon....

Evryn - Morai · June 2015

Okay, I ran the numbers on autoculti. Break even is still possible.

Toon 1: Sage barb, G16 +7 weapon - running at same-level mobs. 6 hour autoculti bout overnight: 550K profit after repairs, before sales of any extras such as materials and jades.
Toon 2: Sage myst. G16 +7 weapon, running at higher then char's level mobs. 6 hours autoculti 650k profit, but fewer materials.
Toon 3: Sage BM, G16 +5 weapon, running at same-level mobs. 8 hours, 400k profit.
Toon 4: Sage sin, Morai95 +4 daggers, 8 hours in the Morai lake. 300k profit, but sales of Glaze not included (sells for 8k per unit atm)

To put this in context: Jolly Jones at level 80, if you do all quests, returns about 750k for an hour of playing. The average return for doing a BH100 is 600k-ish.

In a nutshell, potion to 0 coins slashes about 100k from the returns depending on what you're fighting. The coin drops themselves compensate for repairs, so long as you have a moderately refined weapon and are offensively oriented.

This means people will need to start picking the coinstacks mobs drop if they are short on money for repairs. Materials farming is possible too for making some money, but it's likely to be slower since the mineables take a long time to gather.

CapnK - Sanctuary · June 2015

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

No, it's not. New players start out in TT gear by the time they reach 100. They need subs. Higher prices on those will hurt them being able to get basic endgame gear. They'll be stuck in Morai 95 through their first and possibly second rebirth, and get oneshotted by bosses that barely scratch the majority of characters (IE FSP frog boss and anything else with strong aoes).

Quicksand Maze level 85 gear is more than sufficient for surviving in FSP, I used it on my DB through 2 RBs. It's also easier and faster to farm than TT, and requires no subs or other expenditures to farm. People just don't know about it because new players get told they *need* TT because that's what older players used back in the day.

It's also way better than Morai 95, which has always been horrible.

monika2015 · June 2015

CapnK - Sanctuary wrote: »

Quicksand Maze level 85 gear is more than sufficient for surviving in FSP, I used it on my DB through 2 RBs. It's also easier and faster to farm than TT, and requires no subs or other expenditures to farm. People just don't know about it because new players get told they *need* TT because that's what older players used back in the day.

It's also way better than Morai 95, which has always been horrible.

How is the Quick Maze 85 gear better than the Morai 95 gear? I'm not familiar with these so I'm asking out of curiosity.

Also, can someone give the names of the AA and HA armor for Quick Maze 85 and Morai 95 so I can look up their names in pwdatabase to see how they compare?

braidey · June 2015

really like i see why it was bad for them to remove it but they are not neglecting or new players or newer toons that cant be geard the quick sand maze is specifically for new players and new toons and the gear is sooooo great and alot better than tt80 ..... the set i had on my db and seeker were better than tt90 and the weapon was a hella lot better than tt90 weapon even on players it did as much damage ( i have alot of gears and full g16 and some nice ranked gear if u catch my drift b:pleased ) so i can tell when thiers good gears and when thiers bad gears XD honestly play the damn game dont complain and if u do well sorry u keep finding new reasons to say negative things about a game u dont have to play >.> ill be a FREE pwi player forever as far as i know cause thier doing fine just cause thier some new stuff we dont like and arnt used to isn't really bad once gotten used to or if u really like playing.............. thiers ifs in there so..... :P but i doooo

Aubree - Dreamweaver · June 2015

monika2015 wrote: »

How is the Quick Maze 85 gear better than the Morai 95 gear? I'm not familiar with these so I'm asking out of curiosity.

Also, can someone give the names of the AA and HA armor for Quick Maze 85 and Morai 95 so I can look up their names in pwdatabase to see how they compare?

Really it's not even better than tt80 statwise, with the set bonus I still think tt90 wins.

CapnK - Sanctuary · June 2015

quicksand 85 HA: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/45268

Morai 95 HA: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/32526

TT 90 HA: http://www.pwdatabase.com/pwi/items/14926

While TT90 wins on base stats, the set bonus is what really wins it for the quicksand 85. Full sets of 85 have 20 warding levels and 7% physical reduction (LA and AA have the same bonuses). Morai 95 has 23 warding levels but nothing else helpful.

Even unbuffed I could survive toad's aoe in the 85 LA set. So like I said, it's sufficient gear to survive the instances that you want to do. Not *amazing* gear, but sufficient, and very easy to farm.

Chuck_smith - Sanctuary · June 2015

Evryn - Morai wrote: »

I'm not usually one for a rant. And if you don't like rants, stop reading here...

I'm not at all happy with the latest update. To be honest, it's downright demoralizing me. I've worked my butt off over the past 4 months to farm R9 together. One MOG sale from completing it. I figured, after that, I'll see about refining my gear a bit, kitting out my alts so they can level themselves on autoculti a bit at break-even or tiny profit, and then work on getting the NW ornies or a bigger cube neck - to try and catch up to the endgame folk. You know, get to the level you need to be to be able to participate in PvP events and not feel like a damned paper doll.

What do I see now?
- Sockets for ornies. That give spirit, deflvls, or att lvls. Great, thanks. That will help level the playing field PWI. That kind of raising the bar to catch up is a REAL draw for newer players. Gives them something to look forward to - namely an infinity of farming or receivership if you're a creditcard warrior instead.
Not to say the people who do have money are not spending it. The amount of red announcements in the worldchannel on Morai is high. Very high.

I really don't care about this, we already have too much stat boosting power already, there is no need to have any more stats.

- Potions with 0 value. This was one of the few things that you could still break even with on autoculti as a less powerful toon. Those who can oneshot stuff don't get hit, so their repair costs are nil. But players with characters who do get hit a lot, such as barbarians, BMs, seekers? They'll no longer break even on repairs. They'll have to farm to even be able to maintain their toon. That's work. Not play. Noone likes that.
Also, the only bots that can run a good profit now, are the auto-mining ones. Cheat-bots needed for automagic moneymaking again. And it shows.

Since when did potions have value to begin with? Honestly, I can't remember, but other than the instant recovery potions I never made coin via pots.

- No more Ultimate Substance rewards from the BH bosses through the Nirvana Talismans. I suppose noone added them to the BH TT quest-taking rewards either. This will hurt players who try to work their way forward in the game by running Twilight Temple a lot. I'm lucky that I saw this coming and have a huge reserve by now, but it's another thing that will hurt newer players who still need to work on basic G15/G16 gear.

Well good, substance needs to have more value. I am actually happy about this change.

All in all, with the latest update, I see PWI setting a trend that requires the absolute top to spend a crapload to remain there, and totally ignores the starting players. It is a strategy that will lead to a small elite group, a declining playerbase, no new or returning players... it is not sustainable. Once a playerbase becomes too small in an MMORPG, the world will feel empty.
I don't want PWI to head there. Give folk a chance to catch up - heck, even your whales want that, it's the only way that they'll have some competition!

Some suggestions to solve this:
- Eliminate or severely reduce repair costs. They hurt starting or struggling players the most, by far.

It will not solve the issue of the coin making from grinding

- Eliminate the Jolly Jones cash grant on taking the 7 bounty tickets, and double the reward from doing the bounties.

No

- Eliminate the need for Ultimate Substances to open ANY level of Twilight Temple, including the extra bosses.

No, there are other ways to get ultimate substance. And I do not mean by tokens.

- Provide an easy way to obtain the Accessory Socket Stones and the basic Magic/Phys def stones that you can socket in there. Maybe via the Resource War rewards, or through the Undercurrent Hall. So that players can work on getting these instead of having to resort to the boutique - which feels a little like extortion.

I can agree with that

- Reduce the NPC value for mineable goods (herbs, coal, wood etc) to 1. Also reduce the NPC value of the half-fabricates (Budda Wood, Gold Bar, Cloud Muslin etc) to 1 coin to prevent mining bots from being able to profit directly from these. It won't solve the issue of them auto-mining herbs, then selling useful potions to other players instead however.

Replies in green, and who bots mined goods and NPCs them? Not that it make much of a difference (some of them are just flat out useless).

Thoughts on the latest patch...

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