Which is Tankier...full JOSD or Full Creation Stones sharded?

icycoffeebreaks · December 2014

I was using asty's awesome survival calculator, but that tool is now obsolete due to not having creation stones, and primordial passive buff skills, and spirit points.

Considering the cost "on my server"

JOSD = 650mil +
Creation stone = 200mil+ (if bought from players) or 120 mil if farmed with points.
10 vit stones = 120mil+

It would seem that you get the most of your money's worth going full Creation stone. But how much survival index would JOSD have over Creation stones if not equal? Also, now a days, would more vit points contribute more or less due to the diminishing returns of highly refined gear and the passive defense skills from primordial world?

Thank you.

opkossy · December 2014

Jades are better. Primal passives have reduced the benefits of vit stones of any type.

For expense, creation stones aren't worth the cost for 2 whole vit per stone more compared to the typical primevals/savants.

WannaBM - Archosaur · December 2014

On my +10 str barb it would be virtually equal. On a +12 str barb a JOSD would worth about 15 vit. On a vit barb a bit more even.

Cant say precise for an LA character but with both the value of vit reduced and your base+refine value being reduced it probably is somewhat similar.

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver · December 2014

OPKossy wrote: »

Jades are better. Primal passives have reduced the benefits of vit stones of any type.

For expense, creation stones aren't worth the cost for 2 whole vit per stone more compared to the typical primevals/savants.

True, but why not get the creation stones if you can when they are at the same price of vit stones anyway?
If people did their base quests they should have excessive merit by now.

freygin · December 2014

icycoffeebreaks wrote: »

I was using asty's awesome survival calculator, but that tool is now obsolete due to not having creation stones, and primordial passive buff skills, and spirit points.

Considering the cost "on my server"

JOSD = 650mil +
Creation stone = 200mil+ (if bought from players) or 120 mil if farmed with points.
10 vit stones = 120mil+

It would seem that you get the most of your money's worth going full Creation stone. But how much survival index would JOSD have over Creation stones if not equal? Also, now a days, would more vit points contribute more or less due to the diminishing returns of highly refined gear and the passive defense skills from primordial world?

Thank you.

You can use custom preset in Asty's socket calc for primal passive and add whatever % is the total buff combined with other classes' buffs. Or you can use Gear Bonus % (PDef % / Mdef %) for the primal.

It doesn't matter how you put buffs into the calc, it calculates the same way, only gives a more friendly user interface and neater if having its own place in the calc.

Creation stone is there under Super Endgame preset.

opkossy · December 2014

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver wrote: »

True, but why not get the creation stones if you can when they are at the same price of vit stones anyway?
If people did their base quests they should have excessive merit by now.

Depends on the server. On a good few of them Creation stones are more expensive than normal vit stones for an extremely minimal boost defensively. On the servers where they are basically the same price, go for it... but any server where the gap is above 30m is one where you'll be better off (price-wise) by just getting the vit stones.

Joe - Morai · December 2014

You can't generalize this. It highly depends on who you are fighting and how.

If you fight buffed all the time then josd will make a huge impact while fighting the average player.
So I would suggest josd.

If you for example fight deity sins/psys all day long then you might as well shards vits. Those guys would have more then 100 attack level over your def level all the time...that would reduce the effectiveness of josd drastically and would put vits on top by far (as a melee/garnet gems for AA).

So ya it highly depends on what you are doing and what class you are as well.

WannaBM - Archosaur · December 2014

Joe - Morai wrote: »

You can't generalize this. It highly depends on who you are fighting and how.

If you fight buffed all the time then josd will make a huge impact while fighting the average player.
So I would suggest josd.

If you for example fight deity sins/psys all day long then you might as well shards vits. Those guys would have more then 100 attack level over your def level all the time...that would reduce the effectiveness of josd drastically and would put vits on top by far (as a melee/garnet gems for AA).

So ya it highly depends on what you are doing and what class you are as well.

True, but since you are probably fighting a huge range of opponents, i calculated against the average of equally geared opponents.

Since against some opponents it doesnt matter what you shard as you will win anyway while against others it doesnt matter what you shard as you will lose anyway, you should calculate against that group of players where it does matter.

Verenor - Morai · December 2014

icycoffeebreaks wrote: »

I was using asty's awesome survival calculator, but that tool is now obsolete due to not having creation stones, and primordial passive buff skills, and spirit points.

Considering the cost "on my server"

JOSD = 650mil +
Creation stone = 200mil+ (if bought from players) or 120 mil if farmed with points.
10 vit stones = 120mil+

It would seem that you get the most of your money's worth going full Creation stone. But how much survival index would JOSD have over Creation stones if not equal? Also, now a days, would more vit points contribute more or less due to the diminishing returns of highly refined gear and the passive defense skills from primordial world?

Thank you.

Put your info in Asterelle's Survival calculator and figure it out.
For me personally:
Opponent has 1-136 ATK levels: JOSD
Opponent has 137> ATK levels: Creation Stone

Eventhough Creation Stones are a lot cheaper than JOSD, they also take months (years for full set) to farm, even if people sell them. There would only be a handful of them who would actually sell for the obviously higher price than Base asks. Getting full Creation Stone set is nothing but a dream at the current state of the game (not enough factions/players who obtained one yet)

-edit- forgot to add that the calculator still works, only Spirit isn't taken in account but you can calculate that manually (10 spirit = 1 atk/def), the Primal Passive % you put in the boxes on top of the gear% or buff%, simple as that. Creation Stones are also in that calculator, just unfold the "endgame shards" and select "super endgame".

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2014

Even with the 80% gear buff from Primal? That should bump most people up to where Deity opponents are about where creation stones beat Jades

Asterelle - Sanctuary · December 2014

These are roughly my stats and vs a 190 attack level deity opponent creation stone is a bit better than JoSD by like 13%. In typical cases vs 130 attack level JoSD is better by 30%. In PvE JoSD is better by 50%.

Deceptistar - Sanctuary · December 2014

stahp forcing us to reshard :x

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2014

Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

These are roughly my stats and vs a 190 attack level deity opponent creation stone is a bit better than JoSD by like 13%. In typical cases vs 130 attack level JoSD is better by 30%. In PvE JoSD is better by 50%.

You can't only look at pdef, mdef matters too.

Verenor - Morai · December 2014

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

You can't only look at pdef, mdef matters too.

That's why there is an "average" list right next to it which also states Creation Stone > JoSD vs targets with higher than above-average atk levels.

Quilue - Sanctuary · December 2014

I guess Ast looked at pdef only for ~178 atk and above because there are less deity robes around. At 190+ that's like black voodoo deity psy or something, who can probably die pretty easily

icycoffeebreaks · February 2015

Thanks for updating your calculator to do creation stones and diety now asty!

DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver · February 2015

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

I guess Ast looked at pdef only for ~178 atk and above because there are less deity robes around. At 190+ that's like black voodoo deity psy or something, who can probably die pretty easily

Deity sins are like 230+ attack lvls with sage primal chill.

frankensteon · February 2015

As far as an archer goes, 24 +12 Vit stones will come out to around 4700 hp with a lvl11 HP Buff, along with the "minimal" defense bonuses gained, considering passives will kick an archer to around 85-90% physical and magical defense reduction, so the defense stat bonuses gained by the +12 vit stones, are pretty useless. A +10/+12 archer will already have 20-25k hp at that point, so that 4.7k hp on top of it, even including maybe a 2-3% boost to defenses, only comes out to maybe a maximum of a 30% boost as far as your defenses goes. Full JoSD on the other hand, is a flat 48 def levels for a full set, a 48% damage reduction to everything. Whereas any good sin will hit you for 10-15k easily, if not more as a creation sharded archer, that a JoSD build will drop that down to 5-7.5k roughly. 5-7k Damage is a hell of a lot less on 25k hp than a 10-15k is on 30k hp. Thats a drastic reduction to damage, since primal passives were introduced into this game, Vit gems can't even really be considered End-Game.

Quilue - Sanctuary · February 2015

Is 130 half of 178?
Is 182 half of 230?

angellicdeity · February 2015

In theory Creation stones are better in situation X. In practice any vit-stone is a bad choice if you're going for the best PvP gear and intending to face the best geared players.

Full Deity Archers can deal "normal" damage against similarly geared players. You'll be dishing 7-8K+ hits which isn't all too bad. They also take ridiculous amounts of damage too. Even with full spirit you'll be taking 7-9K+ hits from an archer, 10K+ hits from (Jaded) Assassins, and 15K+ hits from those Deity Assassins.

Fully Jaded archers can deal "meh" damage against similarly geared players 3K+ hits fully buffed - maybe 7-8K when unbuffed. You are "meh" in terms of defense. You can't take players outright - but you likely wont die if you aren't stunned/sealed/rooted and debuffed. You still take 12K hits from full deity Assassins, but its the best they'll do unless your amped by Veno's, and BM's. Most importantly being fully jaded gives you some time to react if you were unfavorably stunned/rooted/sealed/silenced.

Creation/Savant stone archers deal "meh" damage, and take (relatively) the same amount of damage as a full deity archer. You have enough HP to take an additional arrow from an archer - but that is a pretty low bar. In reality you die as fast as a full deity archer to similarly geared Assassins, Blademasters, Barbarians (essentially anything that can Zerk + Crit). You have some luck against casters but not a whole lot. Well geared psychics and wizards can drop 10K on fully Jaded archers. They'll be dropping closer to 16K on you.

TL;DR; Creation/Savant stones are only effective against Archers - almost any other class bypasses the extra HP and minuscule increase to defense just due to their "numbers".

eirghan · February 2015

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

Getting full Creation Stone set is nothing but a dream at the current state of the game (not enough factions/players who obtained one yet)

There is a full creation stone venomancer on the sanctuary server.

As with anything all dreams can come true with a large enough credit card limit.

Azura - Lost City · February 2015

Do creation stones even exist in PWI?

phmn · February 2015

Azura - Lost City wrote: »

Do creation stones even exist in PWI?

If the faction you're in has a level 8 Heavnely Vault. That's the only way to obtain them.

frankensteon · February 2015

As a 1k spirit, 111 def lvl barb, A non-deity archer will hit me for roughly 4-6k crits, a little more maybe if I'm purged with extreme poison. A full deity archer on the other hand, Hits me for 6-8k, but they are also a glass cannon. A fully deity archer with buffs takes 5-10k from a good hit, but purged, they're a walking 1 shot. A JoSD archer on the other hand, is far harder to kill. Fully buffed I'll hit around 3-6k, maxing 10-15k with a zerk crit once they're purged, but a deity archer would take 25k+ at that point.

eirghan · February 2015

Deceptistar - Sanctuary wrote: »

stahp forcing us to reshard :x

Seekers still would rock josd even if 13% disadvantage. That sac slash

angellicdeity · February 2015

eirghan wrote: »

Seekers still would rock josd even if 13% disadvantage. That sac slash

13% is really a bad number for comparison because at the end of the day the numbers dealt by fully decked out players easily make full jades or full deities the only option if you're looking to have the best gear for PvP in game.

A lot of the comparisons that involve Vit-stones make the mistake of assuming that the HP pools are near infinite. Fully decked out archers and barbarians are running 50K+ max pattack. Other classes are rocking ridiculous numbers for mattack and pattack. Without defense levels characters are dropping easily 10K+ hits on eachother.

The damage fully geared and carded players deal easily allow them to bypass charms altogether. Its no mystery why fully Jaded or full Deity are superior options - a charm tick makes a huge difference in survivability.

AngelRiot - Sanctuary · February 2015

eirghan wrote: »

There is a full creation stone venomancer on the sanctuary server.

As with anything all dreams can come true with a large enough credit card limit.

Full creation stone veno? What a fail, I hope that person didn't spend all their life savings to accomplish that. b:shocked

passionateone · February 2015

eirghan wrote: »

There is a full creation stone venomancer on the sanctuary server.

As with anything all dreams can come true with a large enough credit card limit.

You could of been anything but you chose to be salty.

Sinclere - Sanctuary · February 2015

passionateone wrote: »

You could of been anything but you chose to be salty.

Everything's better with a link

eirghan · February 2015

Stating theres someone who has full creation stone gear after someone says no one has it = salty.

Stating something exists = That thing is fail.

Do you need a dictionary?

passionateone · February 2015

eirghan wrote: »

Stating theres someone who has full creation stone gear after someone says no one has it = salty.

Stating something exists = That thing is fail.

Do you need a dictionary?

"As with anything all dreams can come true with a large enough credit card limit."
Stating someone on sanctuary server has full creations is not being salty, however, stating that last part is, indeed... being salty b:pleased

Which is Tankier...full JOSD or Full Creation Stones sharded?

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