A Question about Archers

wiizam
wiizam Posts: 0 Arc User
edited April 2015 in Archer
Well i am a Sage Archer and by reading some of the forum i get alot of people says thats a mistake and to go change to demon.

But What i am wondering why is sage so bad? i have fun onit

Sage Quick Shot gives me a 20% Crit rate boost for 10 sec, so i usually time my QS'S to keep that up meaning when im at 100 my crit rate is at 32% so wit that boost i have a 50% Crit rate right? meaning in theory if Auto Shoot for the next 10 second after i Shoot QS my aps is .97 So lets say i get out 8 Shots in 10 seconds, so again in Thoery 4 of thos 8 shots are Crits.

That takes me to Bow Mastery, Sage the obvious 90% equipment Value Attack Boost
Demon - 1% Crit Rate 2% if you wear those crappy starter wings

Well ok Crit is Nice, we depend on our Crits but Sage gves us higher dmg, and cause of Sage Quickshot that 1% crit loss isnt gong hurt us badly.

I can go through more but to be honst i dont wanna type more and probably you guys are getting tired of how i write xD
Post edited by wiizam on
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Comments

  • Salari - Raging Tide
    Salari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Not sure, if there is a better choice. I could not decide myself and just went demon. One thing with demon qs is you get a aps boost if it hits which is pretty nice when genie is on cool down when regaining chi on boss battles
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  • opkossy
    opkossy Posts: 11,177 Community Moderator
    edited January 2015
    15% weapon mastery difference is... not really that big of a deal when you factor in everything else. Sage QS may give a higher crit boost but demon can stack their QS's attack speed boost with one of three crit boosts (speaking of which, with their crit boosts, they become nearly dead even on a sage using QS) to get that many more hits in... which also means more chances to crit and a greater total damage.



    Basically, for PvE DPS, demon beats sage hands down. For survival, it's a misconception that sages are more tanky than demons. They aren't, it's just their spark and between winged grace (much cheaper for survival) and demon wingspan (free winged shell to avoid things that would murder you) demons don't exactly slack on survivability compared to sages. For high end PvE, cultivation really doesn't matter because if you're geared well enough you can faceroll most content regardless.

    In terms of PvP, archers are screwed over regardless of culti nowadays and amount to little more than purge support unless they outgear their target or are vastly more skilled. So cultivation wouldn't matter there anyways... though for low end PvP demons bring more to the table in terms of being able to take down their opponents than sages do.



    So in essence, it's just understood that while it doesn't really matter overall nowadays, in the places where it would matter, demon's generally better overall than sage by a bit. It's not as bad as it used to be thanks to the skill revamp, though. So people generally don't care regardless now.
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  • sjampie
    sjampie Posts: 628 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Have both Sage and Demon. Demon (RB2) is a bit quicker in killing most of the time but my Sage (RB1) helps more moron-people (yup, the people who say sage-archer is a mistake) to do their culti and/or boring "kill 50+ mobs"-quest.
  • VipertheElf - Sanctuary
    VipertheElf - Sanctuary Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    In terms of PvP, archers are screwed over regardless of culti nowadays and amount to little more than purge support unless they outgear their target or are vastly more skilled. So cultivation wouldn't matter there anyways...
    ^
    This

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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    So as long as archer is going to be backwater ranged debuffer, Sage is a much better idea. The increased chi gain lets you shoot those debuffs more often and the slightly increased range lets you do that from a safer distance. Stronger STA is nice too, and 5s ranged stun is really good.

    Sage QS is a good chi source, giving the same chi gain as instant TA. Cycling QS and instant TA with some other skill, say Knockback Arrow, will get you the chi gain of a caster.

    If you really **** chi and there aren't good Barrage targets, start casting Stormrage or 3 sparking.

    Stormrage is a nice debuff because it pierces anti-stun, so as long as chi is not a problem, go for it. Pretty sure it can also stack like a DoT, with the slow affect stacking as well. You guys should try stacking it and see if it makes people walk backwards.

    A Demon debuffer is placed in the bonus role of Taunting everything in sight and doing the same debuffs Sage does, except you must be careful not to override someone else's decent stun with your crappy stun. Ironically Demon Stormrage has the stronger slow. So you know...go nuts.
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  • Madebyvisa - Raging Tide
    Madebyvisa - Raging Tide Posts: 283 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    sage>demon on all class cept veno and barb. nuff said. Demon ea with these updates is utterly and totally useless in pvp.
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  • Sthenith - Dreamweaver
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    In terms of PvP, archers are screwed over regardless of culti nowadays and amount to little more than purge support unless they outgear their target or are vastly more skilled.

    Just look at NW's as an example. Our faction has seen several archers 1-shotting everything in sight and on occasion we see R9RR archers tanking 4-6 people at once.

    It's nice to have the longer range, esp when you're well geared, to take out the squishy targets, but cultivation really doesn't matter anymore. By the time you see an archer in your surroundings you're either stunned, purged or dead. Gear matters, not culti.
    For high end PvE, cultivation really doesn't matter because if you're geared well enough you can faceroll most content regardless.

    ^and this.
  • DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver
    DarkSkiesx - Dreamweaver Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    Just look at NW's as an example. Our faction has seen several archers 1-shotting everything in sight and on occasion we see R9RR archers tanking 4-6 people at once.

    It's nice to have the longer range, esp when you're well geared, to take out the squishy targets, but cultivation really doesn't matter anymore. By the time you see an archer in your surroundings you're either stunned, purged or dead. Gear matters, not culti.

    This is why we should only base culti/playstyle/skill decisions on equal gear comparisons.

    It's like saying;

    >Should I get a red car or a blue car
    >Hmm what car is faster, red car or blue car?
    >Well this red Ferrari is faster than this blue Peugeot
    >Ok so I'll get a red car then

    On Dreamweaver we have loads of OP geared archers compared to other classes. Which is why people complain archers are OP.
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  • Evryn - Morai
    Evryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sage archer has a few perks that people often overlook...
    - Archer buff has a longer duration movement speed increase. Useful if you want to boost a party that doesn't have innate movement speed bonuses such as casters or barbs.
    - Sage quickshot is a nice -and fast- way to boost crit rate.
    - Sage Charged Strike hits extremely hard if someone doesn't notice you using it. Combining with quickshot can oneshot anyone not prepared for heavy phys auch (coughstormbringercough)

    It's more geared towards sniping then straight up combat. Being sneaky probably helps - not sure if stealth is cancelled by channeling charged strike - if not, that could be a nasty tactic.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary
    Asterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Evryn - Morai wrote: »
    Sage archer has a few perks that people often overlook...
    - Archer buff has a longer duration movement speed increase. Useful if you want to boost a party that doesn't have innate movement speed bonuses such as casters or barbs.
    - Sage quickshot is a nice -and fast- way to boost crit rate.
    - Sage Charged Strike hits extremely hard if someone doesn't notice you using it. Combining with quickshot can oneshot anyone not prepared for heavy phys auch (coughstormbringercough)

    It's more geared towards sniping then straight up combat. Being sneaky probably helps - not sure if stealth is cancelled by channeling charged strike - if not, that could be a nasty tactic.

    Archer speed buff is the only squad buff in the game that's still almost always destroyed by temporary effects like holy path or purify spell before the duration finishes. That's basically a bug that hasn't been fixed it 7 years. It never gets fully utilized in a squad setting.

    For 'charge strike' are you talking about take aim? Take aim is less likely to one shot then lots of other skills because the damage never stacks with the normal arrow after it. Once you play Archer for a while you realize that quickshot feels like it does more damage and you only use take aim for its 15 chi. 15 chi is considered high for an Archer skill.

    Archer stealth is almost entirely defensively used too because of the lack of movement. It's hard to get the drop on someone when you have to be there first and then have to wait until they walk by.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    You can channel Take Aim in stealth, but a lot of skills are better for assassinating a crappy geared target.
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  • Sthenith - Dreamweaver
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Archer stealth is almost entirely defensively used too because of the lack of movement

    It's a very useful skill when an archers charm just ticked. It allows for the charm CD to be gone and the archer can prepare for the next attack. Any enemy, in NW for example, who then moves away from the archers position, can easily be taken down.

    I've seen it happen on several occasions in NW. It's defensive AND very effective.
    It's more geared towards sniping then straight up combat

    ^this. Anyone who went into NW/TW knows that archers are built to take ppl out ranged and were never intended to be tanking several ppl at once. And with the amount of dmg and crits archers do it's kinda justified to call them OP.

    Face it, since the introduction of R9 in the game, the PvP is aimed towards gear > skills > culti.
    If you have the gear, you can like was said before, faceroll the entire content of the game. And that slowly includes pvp more and more.
  • psych0betch
    psych0betch Posts: 1 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    And with the amount of dmg and crits archers do it's kinda justified to call them OP.
    Only people with **** gear say archers are OP. Anyone with decent gear knows that's a load of ****.
  • Sthenith - Dreamweaver
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    psych0betch wrote: »
    Only people with **** gear say archers are OP. Anyone with decent gear knows that's a load of ****.

    did you even read anything ?
    gear > skills > culti

    A R9-3 archer, because of their range, can take a less (read G16 and below) geared target out in no time. If you do manage to read the entire post, it clearly stated that gear > culti. If you run around in G16 gear and you're facing a R9-3 archer, then yes, they are OP. Because R9-3 is.
    If you claim otherwise, then you're either a moron or you've never pvp'd, period.
  • AsMyliuTave - Sanctuary
    AsMyliuTave - Sanctuary Posts: 77 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    did you even read anything ?

    A R9-3 archer, because of their range, can take a less (read G16 and below) geared target out in no time. If you do manage to read the entire post, it clearly stated that gear > culti. If you run around in G16 gear and you're facing a R9-3 archer, then yes, they are OP. Because R9-3 is.
    If you claim otherwise, then you're either a moron or you've never pvp'd, period.
    OK, let's all make alts with G16 gear and fight someone from ANY class with R9S3, and then we can call that class OP because this Sthenith person said so. Makes sense.

    In order for a class to be considered OP, you have to consider it in the context of how that class will perform against other classes with similar gear. As stated above, only someone with **** gear is gonna think an archer is OP. If you have similar gear to me, you should be beating me. If you're not, you either suck or I was very lucky. End of argument.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary
    Asterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »
    A R9-3 archer, because of their range, can take a less (read G16 and below) geared target out in no time. If you do manage to read the entire post, it clearly stated that gear > culti. If you run around in G16 gear and you're facing a R9-3 archer, then yes, they are OP. Because R9-3 is.
    If you claim otherwise, then you're either a moron or you've never pvp'd, period.
    You're the moron. Every R9rr toon of any class can 1 shot a G16 or tt99 toon. How do you not know this?
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  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »

    You're the moron. Every R9rr toon of any class can 1 shot a G16 or tt99 toon. How do you not know this?

    Hi.
    I am a R9.3 Blademaster.
    I don't really 1 shot any class period wearing G16NV if they have equal refines to me.

    Just Sayin.
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  • Asterelle - Sanctuary
    Asterelle - Sanctuary Posts: 930 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    Hi.
    I am a R9.3 Blademaster.
    I don't really 1 shot any class period wearing G16NV if they have equal refines to me.

    Just Sayin.

    On my server at least G16 people tend to have +6 refines at most. R999+12 zerk crit should 1 shot that. In any case if youre +10 or better you should win by facerolling.
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  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Endgame BMs can one shot R93 archers too if the archers don't have the best shards and cards.

    I would say G16 heavies can survive a hit or two but that's splitting hairs.
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  • Sthenith - Dreamweaver
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver Posts: 207 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    If you have similar gear to me, you should be beating me. If you're not, you either suck or I was very lucky. End of argument.

    Like i said : gear > culti. Who the hell said anything about similar gear, or "on my server blah blah blah"...

    This post was about comparing sage vs demon, and as kossy said, it doesn't matter what culti you have, gear makes the difference between the 2 negligable.

    Wether you're sage or demon doesn't come into the equation anymore. No matter what path you choose, if you face someone better equipped, you're bound to lose.

    If you take someone like Dragoonz on dreamweaver who has r9-3 +12 , full set of S cards almost completely max level and insane ornaments and shards, it doesn't matter if he's sage or demon. He'll spank your *** so hard you'll be running for your mommy. And if he's equally skilled as he's geared, which i know he is, it doesn't matter if you're R9-3 or G16, you're out of luck (and cash).

    The simple fact is, and i think most of us agree upon, is that the culti doesn't matter that much anymore, esp in pvp. If you go to a TW, you can clearly see that archers either play a support role (purging and taking out squishy targets) or they're geared so well in comparison to others that they can 'almost' 1-shot anyone who comes too close for comfort.

    And Asterelle, you clearly cannot read.
    If you run around in G16 gear and you're facing a R9-3 archer, then yes, they are OP. Because R9-3 is.

    Didn't i just say with the above that to a G16 a R9 is OP BECAUSE OF GEAR ? I repeat, so you can read it again : TO a G16. NOT to an equally geared toon. Doh. You do read english right ?

    Well, whatever, i'm sure you'll come up with another witty pointless comment about how it is on your server and whatnot.
  • beniyoung
    beniyoung Posts: 15 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    wiizam wrote: »
    Well i am a Sage Archer and by reading some of the forum i get alot of people says thats a mistake and to go change to demon.

    But What i am wondering why is sage so bad? i have fun onit


    If you have fun being a sage archer stay being a sage. Today differences between sage and demon is just playstyle. By the way im a sage archer with full sage/morai/primal skills. b:bye
  • Kristopher - Dreamweaver
    Kristopher - Dreamweaver Posts: 49 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    TBH as Darkskies said it doesn't really matter which you choose but my 103 Archer who I made nearly 4yrs ago is Demon and I have never regretted it. I like the fact the WoP gives better Evasion, Sage WoP I lose 600 Evasion so I am always rebuffing if a Sage Archer Buffs. Some don't even know about the difference between the two WoP. Demon QS Procs a lot and I love it its like a Mini Spark b:victory, I researched both and decided to go Demon. The extra speed on Sage WoP is mute imo, because a lot of the time we are using Holy path. I would choose more evasion over speed any day. But in the end its YOUR Choice b:thanks
  • HideYoHubby - Archosaur
    HideYoHubby - Archosaur Posts: 995 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Sthenith - Dreamweaver wrote: »


    Didn't i just say with the above that to a G16 a R9 is OP BECAUSE OF GEAR ? I repeat, so you can read it again : TO a G16. NOT to an equally geared toon. Doh. You do read english right ?

    Well, whatever, i'm sure you'll come up with another witty pointless comment about how it is on your server and whatnot.

    Youre argument makes every single class OP. Any class can do what archers can by 1shotting lowbies. Its simply idiotic to consider class OP just because toon of said class overgears opposition and facerolls competition trough sheer gear advantage. Archer being the weakest class currently in endgame is generally accepted as a fact.
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  • Socqar - Lost City
    Socqar - Lost City Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Madebyvisa - Raging Tide wrote: »
    sage>demon on all class cept veno and barb. nuff said. Demon ea with these updates is utterly and totally useless in pvp.

    This.... xD Nope, nope nope nope... There's another post in Archer section that has the numbers by which demon archer > sage archer by FAR since last patch with primal pasives...

    For example, a simple case, ENDGAME, 80% crit base... a boost of 10% as Demon (stun - Sharpen) and a 20% as sage (QS) means that 1/10 hits will crit... considering that demon does crit 9/10 shots, that's nearly nothing... (notice endgame should be "endgame", since i dono't even have engraved orns nor crit cards...) <- All this makes sage QS useless damage-wise.

    Stormrage eagleon got nerfed to stupidity with pasives, due to the way it applies the debuff on people it makes it useless nowadays due to huge fixed base defence.

    Demon has QS for APSING, faster Barrage... all this means more purges, and we are ONLY a purge class on endgame (or semi-endgame ,whatever in my case means r9r +10 nw A set). 1v1 We can be one-shot self-buffed by a seeker zerc-crit... And I think I've not one-shotted EVER someone of my gear level... I can hit 5k on suicidal black-voodoo Psy's though, YAY! u.u

    AAAANYWAY, the OP has 30%+ crit base, meaning is FAAAAAR from endgame, meaning posibly any culti would do, since all the fuss on demon/sage gets relevance when you're PVPing... since PVE is a joke nowadays
  • Azura - Lost City
    Azura - Lost City Posts: 2,281 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Madebyvisa - Raging Tide wrote: »
    sage>demon on all class cept veno and barb. nuff said. Demon ea with these updates is utterly and totally useless in pvp.

    Demon bm is also better than sage.
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  • zhangwuj1
    zhangwuj1 Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    HideYoHubby - Archosaur wrote: »
    Archer being the weakest class currently in endgame is generally accepted as a fact.

    ^ This, can't agree more.


    Demon/sage doesnt matter cause either way, archers are severely underpowered
  • Quilue - Sanctuary
    Quilue - Sanctuary Posts: 5,787 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Every class is probably wishing for move and cast now though. A lot of old class' skills have remained completely crappy while these new classes have to have fancy stuff all over the place.

    They need an old class revamp sometime, and not just "combine this useless skill with this useless skill for one big useless skill. Cost 2 sparks and has 3min cd"
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  • Socqar - Lost City
    Socqar - Lost City Posts: 511 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Every class is probably wishing for move and cast now though. A lot of old class' skills have remained completely crappy while these new classes have to have fancy stuff all over the place.

    They need an old class revamp sometime, and not just "combine this useless skill with this useless skill for one big useless skill. Cost 2 sparks and has 3min cd"

    have you ever faced a semi-geared Duskblade yet? After that, you will just get faith on genie if you haven't, and cry

    If bm's stun-locks were bad, imagine being stun-locked with paralyze spamming skills from a dex-based class that won't miss attacks as a bm does, and will zerk-crit like crazy running with 80%+ crit rate, it's insane
  • ablabahabla
    ablabahabla Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Socqar - Lost City wrote: »
    have you ever faced a semi-geared Duskblade yet? After that, you will just get faith on genie if you haven't, and cry

    If bm's stun-locks were bad, imagine being stun-locked with paralyze spamming skills from a dex-based class that won't miss attacks as a bm does, and will zerk-crit like crazy running with 80%+ crit rate, it's insane

    if u get stunlocked by 1sec stuns then you definitly dont have any idea of how to kite as an ea

    for most of their stuns db needs u to stand still, cause they have to cast 1 or 2 skills before the stun/para skill, and their tele stuns have 20sec and longer cd if their t doesnt die within that time
  • Sint - Harshlands
    Sint - Harshlands Posts: 579 Arc User
    edited April 2015
    OPKossy wrote: »
    In terms of PvP, archers are screwed over regardless of culti nowadays and amount to little more than purge support unless they outgear their target or are vastly more skilled.

    Skill doesn't matter much. Although most of the ******* on HL haven't realized it yet, skill has no actual impact on the damage you deal, and nobody is bad enough to get an endgame HA toon killed by any archer, unless you're actually playing against a paraplegic chimpanzee, and then only if its been tied up to stop it from faceplanting into the keyboard.

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