Best build for Bm now - aps or not?

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Comments

  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    But hey lets pretend farming g16 has no opportunity cost and every single bit of investment can be reimbursed at a profit later (ahahahahaha).

    Things I farm for free don't need a return value, but if it floats your boat I'll have you know my full +10NV3 set is currently account stashed between a Seeker, Barb, & HA Veno
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    The current pvp meta is r999 or your garbage so, yes. Interval simply has more bulk per coin spent and the ability to threaten a wider range of other nonfactors within the non r999 submeta. (read, drop everyone not packing NW ornies + high refines, full buffs including SB mele buff, or purify like they're made of wet paper) "But primal and skills and stuff" you say, Nope non dervish axe damage is still completely pitiful

    So in other words, you are saying that High APS can kill people if their gear is all +0 and they have no defense. No argument there, but a +10NV3 set will destroy someone in a +5 R9.3 set. Not investing in R9 gives you an opportunity to invest in refines & shards which at the end of the day are a lot more important.

    You're still of the 2010 mindset when people +10'd their claws but had +5 armors and didn't even bother with their ornaments.
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    To explain g16 vana is basically r9 first cast, for casters this is great and a cost efficient way to get ok gear. For bm's your trying to pvp other r9 first casts with no GOF and man does that not ****ing work. Hell in first cast era how many bm's even did small group/1v1 pvp in full r9. Nobody good thats for certain.

    Well, idk how it was your derpy server, but on mine where everyone is in "PK Mode" 24/7, we had Calvin who I believe was our first full R9 BM. He completely destroyed everyone who was using APS at the time with superior defense and spike damage that could finally break a HA users charm.

    I'll play ball, I'll restate what I said.

    NEW STATEMENT:
    Assuming you are willing to refine your gears to at least +5, NV3 is vastly superior to an APS set of similar refine in modern pvp. NV3 is also cheaper because the full set can be made for free without buying/selling anything pack related or hiring people in superior gear to farm trophy runs for you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    The commonly solo'd bosses which require you to spark more than 2 times can be counted on 1 hand. I can kill just about any Boss in the game with +12 R9.3 Axes much faster than fists.

    Every single Twilight Temple Boss up until 3-2 can be killed in a single spark.
    Every single boss in frost can be killed in a single spark.
    All of the older FB99 Bosses can be killed in a single spark.
    The majority of lunar bosses can be killed in a single spark.
    3/6 WS Bosses can be solo'd in 2 sparks.

    If you have full end game gear on a BM, you will pretty much always kill things faster with axes than with fists, because the gear and skills made available to us are not focused on aps. The new passive damage buffs don't work with auto-attacks, we don't have interval rank 9 gear like barbs, and we don't have a wood damage buff.

    Make me a little vid of you using both fists and axes.
    I simply wont believe that axes kill faster without proof. Even if its just 1 spark although on those of course it doesnt really matter if it takes 12seconds of 1 spark with 1 and 14seconds with the other.

    Surely i an my buddy are not fully endgame. But most of the difference is in defence rather than offence. (Shards and +12 armors). And other things (a bunch of strength from emperor and some attack levels from helm,cape and G16 amulet) benefit both fists and axes equally. Impossible that your results are going to be 100% different from mine.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    Make me a little vid of you using both fists and axes.
    I simply wont believe that axes kill faster without proof. Even if its just 1 spark although on those of course it doesnt really matter if it takes 12seconds of 1 spark with 1 and 14seconds with the other.

    Surely i an my buddy are not fully endgame. But most of the difference is in defence rather than offence. (Shards and +12 armors). And other things (a bunch of strength from emperor and some attack levels from helm,cape and G16 amulet) benefit both fists and axes equally. Impossible that your results are going to be 100% different from mine.

    Consider that your speaking to the manchild who thinks spending a full week farming full g16 with a 5.0 bm was free, posted a video of himself blowing 4 sparks in as many seconds along with half his geni on a psy in white voodoo with a full geni both souls and immunity off cooldown, and thinks sage has any redeeming qualities on a blademaster.

    Then consider that you just agreed with this man 10 minutes ago.

    Turn back now, down that road lies madness and decadent delusions of grandeur.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    Make me a little vid of you using both fists and axes.
    I simply wont believe that axes kill faster without proof. Even if its just 1 spark although on those of course it doesnt really matter if it takes 12seconds of 1 spark with 1 and 14seconds with the other.

    Surely i an my buddy are not fully endgame. But most of the difference is in defence rather than offence. (Shards and +12 armors). And other things (a bunch of strength from emperor and some attack levels from helm,cape and G16 amulet) benefit both fists and axes equally. Impossible that your results are going to be 100% different from mine.

    The difference is the expanse of time.
    You build back all of your chi by the end of your sparks duration using fists.
    You can't do that with axes, so you can't continually spark with axes.

    But, if you limit your time frame to which can dish out the most damage in that single 12 second time frame, the axes win.
    20+ more attack levels ont he weapon alone, Zerk, MUCH higher base damage. Skill Damage Passives, Armor Set Bonuses

    The longer the duration of the fight, the more the fists get ahead because you can spark more often.

    I agree, the difference between 12 seconds and 14 is negligible, but that is exactly the issue. The times being so similar makes it a waste of inventory space to carry around a second full set of gear.

    EDIT: Keep in mind I am speaking from the perspective of already having full r9.3, and this is in no way a damagecomparison between NV3 Axes and NV3 Fists
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Sure you can name all the things that are in favor of the axes, but then i should mention the fists do about 7 attacks for every attack your axe does ?. I have tested it in practice. And i can assure you my axe damage is nothing pathethic. Its enough to tank without agro skills in squads full of R9+12s.

    Thing is, yes i also dont swap to fists when things die in 1 spark. But that is not because the axes do more dps, it is because even though the fists would kill the same thing in half a spark, im too lazy to swap and just CE after the fight to regain the chi.

    And i am pretty sure we could not do TM lunar if it werent for the fists. Surely map 1 and 2 no problem without them. But the map 3 boss takes about 100seconds APS which would turn into 180 - 200 seconds with axes. We dont have that much to spare.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    base damage
    30-50k axes

    20-20k fists

    Going to ignore spark for the moment as it boosts both evenly

    Axe applies damage multiplier once ever 1.5 seconds optimally, +20% skill damage + 20 atk levels + 35% GOF modified by 35% crit. Fist applies damage 5 times

    DPS (ignoring shared adds):

    40 x .66 x 1.2 x 1.2 x (1.35x1.35) = 68k

    20 x 5 = 100k

    Yup

    Axes do more damage obviously

    Also spark lasts 18 seconds total you idiot.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    base damage
    30-50k axes

    20-20k fists

    Going to ignore spark for the moment as it boosts both evenly

    Axe applies damage multiplier once ever 1.5 seconds optimally, +20% skill damage + 20 atk levels + 35% GOF modified by 35% crit. Fist applies damage 5 times

    DPS (ignoring shared adds):

    40 x .66 x 1.2 x 1.2 x (1.35x1.35) = 68k

    20 x 5 = 100k

    Yup

    Axes do more damage obviously

    Also spark lasts 18 seconds total you idiot

    You're missing enormous stat differences because of the gear required to wield fists and maintain 5.0 is junk
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    You're missing enormous stat differences because of the gear required to wield fists and maintain 5.0 is junk

    Nope. Your just bad.

    b:byeb:byeb:bye

    Edit: @ Wanna, Pen armor generates some silly amounts of threat which is probably why aggro. Though barb skill spam certainly out damages bm skill spam.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Nope. Your just bad.

    b:byeb:byeb:bye

    Edit: @ Wanna, Pen armor generates some silly amounts of threat which is probably why aggro. Though barb skill spam certainly out damages bm skill spam.

    I dont use penetrate armor when tanking. Waste of chi and others have better debufs.

    Edit: PS while in that vid i still have G16. I indeed am also talking about R9+12 which we got shortly after making that vid. (and didnt do all that much for lunar, except providing the luxury of no longer needing to perfectly time sunder-hf-arma)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Salari - Raging Tide
    Salari - Raging Tide Posts: 2,102 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM that some decent damage there you have in that video. When I rebirthed my sage barb, I made a aps set for him. I rolled a set of dbl int g15 fists so he is at 4aps the same as my sage sin. While he will never achieve the dps of my sin, its great being able to pretty much solo everything i need to solo aside the higher squad based instances. While the barb is no where near end game, I still have close to 20k hp as a str barb at lvl 88 so still a decent tank in nw.
    Marine - Marshall - Raging Tides - Retired
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver
    Yes, because people really need 900+ dex or 1000+ magic just for the lulz
  • ask000007
    ask000007 Posts: 3 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    base damage
    30-50k axes

    20-20k fists

    Going to ignore spark for the moment as it boosts both evenly

    Axe applies damage multiplier once ever 1.5 seconds optimally, +20% skill damage + 20 atk levels + 35% GOF modified by 35% crit. Fist applies damage 5 times

    DPS (ignoring shared adds):

    40 x .66 x 1.2 x 1.2 x (1.35x1.35) = 68k

    20 x 5 = 100k

    Yup

    Axes do more damage obviously

    Also spark lasts 18 seconds total you idiot.
    lol since wen spark start lasting 18 sec? u must day dreaming....i had read some of ur post about bm and u really not making any seance and no logic or prove behind ur all posts.
    get out from private server and try out damage in pwi. even with +12 rrr9 axe damage diff did not go to 30k to 50k ..its might less . well i know bm with 25k+ base unspark damage with fist with aps set and more with full g16.
    u basically proving that u playing bm since forever but yet cant play it good enough.. so sad
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    ask000007 wrote: »
    lol since wen spark start lasting 18 sec? u must day dreaming....i had read some of ur post about bm and u really not making any seance and no logic or prove behind ur all posts.
    get out from private server and try out damage in pwi. even with +12 rrr9 axe damage diff did not go to 30k to 50k ..its might less . well i know bm with 25k+ base unspark damage with fist with aps set and more with full g16.
    u basically proving that u playing bm since forever but yet cant play it good enough.. so sad

    Hi some idiots alt account. Sorry you never passed first grade.

    3+15=18

    I'd explain why testing worst case scenario is how theory's are proven but that's third grade stuff.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Crones - Heavens Tear
    Crones - Heavens Tear Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    i Laugh at this. I sold my claws when I got my r9 axes but what I do a any bm can do in stage 3 nirvana +7 weapon and +5 or better gear as long as they use magic defense orns. I solo tt and don't use claws or fists. Just use axes. I got enough dex for my r8 recast adv. purge ole and rest is strength so I have almost 750 strength right now cuz im lazy at leveling in pv. so a s3n could have over 600 strength. you do more damage with skills these days with passives and the hp/defenses from s3 armor than aps. Might take alittle longer but more sufficient in the farming department for survival. Hell I know sins that throw CoD on and use skills cuz they deal more damage than they would aps.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    When you counter, you don't let them cut you...
    When you protect someone, you don't let them die...
    When you attack, KILL!!!!
    I've found my resolve.
  • Kniraven - Lost City
    Kniraven - Lost City Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Kniraven - Lost City wrote: »
    You're missing enormous stat differences because of the gear required to wield fists and maintain 5.0 is junk
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Nope. Your just bad.

    Lawl denial.
    +100 Strength bonus, Additional Attack levels, Massive Additional Stat Adds, and Higher Crit Rate, on the R9.3 Armor. Not even mentioning the lower requisite stats in the first place to wield the axes
    Crones - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    i Laugh at this. I sold my claws when I got my r9 axes but what I do a any bm can do in stage 3 nirvana +7 weapon and +5 or better gear as long as they use magic defense orns. I solo tt and don't use claws or fists. Just use axes. I got enough dex for my r8 recast adv. purge ole and rest is strength so I have almost 750 strength right now cuz im lazy at leveling in pv. so a s3n could have over 600 strength. you do more damage with skills these days with passives and the hp/defenses from s3 armor than aps. Might take alittle longer but more sufficient in the farming department for survival. Hell I know sins that throw CoD on and use skills cuz they deal more damage than they would aps.


    +1
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    As i said, there are fine arguments against APS. But stay with truth, damage is not one of them. If i can outtank 80-90% of the R9+12s without using agro skills (the other 10-20% mostly being archers and sins) and my fists do twice the damage i do with my axe, i know noone else is going to out DD those fists with their R9 weapon. Noone at all. If you say your axes outDD fists, you are simply delusional or lying.
    If you weight the arguments and find the other arguments to be more important than the damage output APS gives, there is nothing i can say against that.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    As i said, there are fine arguments against APS. But stay with truth, damage is not one of them. If i can outtank 80-90% of the R9+12s without using agro skills (the other 10-20% mostly being archers and sins) and my fists do twice the damage i do with my axe, i know noone else is going to out DD those fists with their R9 weapon. Noone at all. If you say your axes outDD fists, you are simply delusional or lying.
    If you weight the arguments and find the other arguments to be more important than the damage output APS gives, there is nothing i can say against that.

    Quoted from truth.
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Crones - Heavens Tear
    Crones - Heavens Tear Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »
    As i said, there are fine arguments against APS. But stay with truth, damage is not one of them. If i can outtank 80-90% of the R9+12s without using agro skills (the other 10-20% mostly being archers and sins) and my fists do twice the damage i do with my axe, i know noone else is going to out DD those fists with their R9 weapon. Noone at all. If you say your axes outDD fists, you are simply delusional or lying.
    If you weight the arguments and find the other arguments to be more important than the damage output APS gives, there is nothing i can say against that.

    Lets see your fists/claws do 950k+ in 1 second with all debuffs on Mushi in FSP. wait you cant cuz melee damage is nerfed??? oh im sorry your argument is invalid. ppl that use aps in instances like FSP where the anti aps buff is there might as well be using a wet noodle.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    When you counter, you don't let them cut you...
    When you protect someone, you don't let them die...
    When you attack, KILL!!!!
    I've found my resolve.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Crones - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    Lets see your fists/claws do 950k+ in 1 second with all debuffs on Mushi in FSP. wait you cant cuz melee damage is nerfed??? oh im sorry your argument is invalid. ppl that use aps in instances like FSP where the anti aps buff is there might as well be using a wet noodle.

    Noone was talking about mushi and other bosses with anti APS buffs. It was about pure basic damage. About TT mostly. We all know where APS is to be used and where not, sorry to inform you that your post is totally irrelevant.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Crones - Heavens Tear
    Crones - Heavens Tear Posts: 222 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    how is it irrelevant you cant go by damage output on a one side. even in TT unless your a r9s3+12 sin a bm will out damage you
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    When you counter, you don't let them cut you...
    When you protect someone, you don't let them die...
    When you attack, KILL!!!!
    I've found my resolve.
  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Crones - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    how is it irrelevant you cant go by damage output on a one side. even in TT unless your a r9s3+12 sin a bm will out damage you

    Try to be a Little more illaborate in what you are saying, the last post wasnt all that clear so i made some assumptions about the point you are trying to make. This one isnt very clear either, i dont really know what it is youre tryign to say :)
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • Joshcja - Sanctuary
    Joshcja - Sanctuary Posts: 3,502 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Crones - Heavens Tear wrote: »
    how is it irrelevant you cant go by damage output on a one side. even in TT unless your a r9s3+12 sin a bm will out damage you

    Translation:

    "I think bm skill spam out damages anything ever"

    Reply:

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
    Gifs are hard to make work here
  • Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver
    Sel_Darkmore - Dreamweaver Posts: 350 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I cant see life as a BM without my R9 axes in regards to Pvp.

    if the person dont plan on any real liking to pvp i would tell them stay with T3 g16.

    But if your even for a min thinking of the pvp side and really want to stay with the bm but really cant see urself affording it....kill the thought right there and merchant/farm yourself the R9 ring and axes, Make it ur personal goal, cause if u got that mind set trust me after G15 GOF stats ur gonna wonder how the Unicorn feels, after Unicorn axes your just gonna want to see what it like with Dervish. And after you get the Dervish your gonna think" WOW what if i had the full gear? hell i got the hardest part, gear should be easier."b:bye

    As far as TT farming with axes instead of aps..I do drop a boss faster in axe mode over my aps set. But i get lazy sometimes and rather twitch and twerk with auto attack lol.b:cuteb:laugh
    To think your OP is Fail, To know your role is OP
    Team work is Flawless,
    To think your better then the rest is shabby.

    Blademaster - Celestial Demon
  • Evryn - Morai
    Evryn - Morai Posts: 1,437 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Dunno, with the primal skills I can see a strong spear being a nice finisher vs casters, especially on a sage BM. 180% weapon damage plus almost guaranteed crit from spiritchaser? That just screams for a GoF spear - R8R might actually have it's uses there. I wonder if those ranged skill strikes still count as melee damage - might be important to know for dealing with Stormbringers.
    I'm so P.R.O... I Press Respawn Often.

    Ulsyr 103/103/104 BM. Working on the last R9 part (Axe).
    Khelvan 103/103/103 LA Cler. LA? LA. Deal with it.
    Evryn 103/102/101 Sagely Mystical Myst of Mystiness.
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  • WannaBM - Archosaur
    WannaBM - Archosaur Posts: 1,984 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Joshcja - Sanctuary wrote: »
    Translation:

    "I think bm skill spam out damages anything ever"

    Reply:

    Ahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Which is of course true for the duration of HF if you count that in. Maybe those that think they can kill anything faster with axe are also thinking like that `HF = axe skill, fists = no HF` Thats the only explanation i got for this thinking.
    Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.
  • _Shui - Harshlands
    _Shui - Harshlands Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Im the OP. I recovered the login data of my old Sage Archer account.

    I got 3.33 base and 5.00 with Rerentless Courage.

    Since noadays there are barely ppl with aps anymore I often steal aggro with my g15 claws in BHs.
    You ppl forgetting the fact that you can perma spark with aps.
  • Mayfly - Dreamweaver
    Mayfly - Dreamweaver Posts: 6,094 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Depends on the BH. On Lord of Captivation (BH SoT) you'll do more damage with your bow than APS fist spark and herp-derp. (Lord has a buff that greatly decreases damage from normal melee attacks.) On Leaf Rain Dryad (BH Aba) you shouldn't use claws unless you're damned certain the squad can kill Leaf in one spark cycle, or you're absolutely certain you can react fast enough to stop attacking when she buffs up (when she buffs, she heals from each melee hit taken, and her AOE increases in power in proportion to melee hits taken.)

    A lot of the newer bosses have buffs similar to Lord's. Yes, APS is still useful on older bosses (TT, Warsong, Lunar, Nirvana if you ever find anyone running it), but not on new bosses, and increasingly not in PVP.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • Jaabg - Sanctuary
    Jaabg - Sanctuary Posts: 2,256 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Quick disagreement, most people are not aware of the flavour of Joshcja posts or his knowledge, but i always have a fun time reading his comments.

    Aps - only useless on bosses where auto attack damage is 100~300, if you are looking for damage output. In most bosses that have anti aps buff, i use fists to get chi, because as a bm i have 3 skills i spam in a 30 second cycle, mss, hf, gs. I could use axes and add to the dd power, but that is like being a hf slave in vana.

    Aps in instances - people still farm lunar, tt plenty on sanctuary, aps is still relevant. In aps, my damage is greater than axes, casters usually. In trials i only lost out agro when r9 3rd cast came out. Before that on bosses, with +10 g16 claws, i held decent agro on bosses when i stole it.

    Aps in pvp - thanks to our new 7.5 second stun, aps is relevant in pvp. In my aps set, my defenses are not that great, but, i have 3.33 attacks per second. Against most r9 3rd cast casters, they have hp of 7k~12k. I hit 1 hit for 1k usually. 3k per second. 7 seconds = 23.3k = most casters deads, and the weapon will not proc. If you keep the stun lock with roar after + blade hurl, you can finish off the caster.

    Sure aps is not popular these days, but as it has always been said, it depends on the bm (player) how they use their weapons in what circumstances. You can't stick to the mold of axe is best in everything.

    People often laugh at me for using fists, claws in pvp, but i have fun, people die, i die.

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