pwi raised zerkcrits"????
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Keisari - Raging Tide wrote: »If there will be a caster that can cast while moving...then let's have archers pewpew while moving too, ofc with slight accuracy-nerf!
that makes some sense b:victory
how i think of all this, rebirth and everything.. not saying it isnt good but take a look...
PHY DD>RBX2>raise phy atk (just like mag atk to a mag DD)>raise ZC> tankier from passive primals...
MAG DD> RBX2>raise mag atk>passive makes abit tankier.
b:chuckle is it only me or do anyone else see that phy DD's still have a upper hand??? i mean i believe passive was mad to even out the classes but really all pwi did was made certain classes hit hard and tanky... if r10 was to be made. the class i believe would take over is the sin. R10 +12 atk+2 sharding emp tome crown of madness/fac helm nw neck nw ring r9r ring>primal skills....ijs0 -
I get parts of that and kinda disagree at the same time... but don't have the time to give a more in-depth reply right now.
Hopefully I'll remember it when I do have time. b:surrender(Insert fancy image here)
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how i think of all this, rebirth and everything.. not saying it isnt good but take a look...
PHY DD>RBX2>raise phy atk (just like mag atk to a mag DD)>raise ZC> tankier from passive primals...
MAG DD> RBX2>raise mag atk>passive makes abit tankier.
b:chuckle is it only me or do anyone else see that phy DD's still have a upper hand??? i mean i believe passive was mad to even out the classes but really all pwi did was made certain classes hit hard and tanky... if r10 was to be made. the class i believe would take over is the sin. R10 +12 atk+2 sharding emp tome crown of madness/fac helm nw neck nw ring r9r ring>primal skills....ijs
Casters can tab and kill from any point on a map provided they're in range which really isn't that hard. > they still hit FAR harder than most melees > They also have range > Don't have to chase their prey be it a player or a mob > Doesn't have to stand in one spot to kill. (Not saying that casters can move while casting, but they also don't have to stand in one spot to actually attack, they can move in any direction/to any point and relaunch an attack. > Also has a proc that pretty much has the insane possibility to remove their only weakness (and that is being locked down) and turning it into an insane strength. (yes I speak of the purify proc)... don't try to tell me they have a weakness to melee attacks, most can't be taken down by a lot of melees due to the insane phys def some casters got, passives helped all not just one side of the fence here.
Those primal passives effected all skill damage (melee and magical)... yup melees have it so MUCH better... N O T.Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
Everyone got extra crit from the passive skills. This is the biggest benefit to those who have a low crit rate. The difference from 10% crit where you do 110% base damage to 25% crit is about 13.5% The difference goign from 160 to 175 as is more representative for high end sins and archers is only 9.4%.
So casters gain more from the increased crit rate. Zerk does not change that fact.
Thats just looking at pure DPS.
Looking at what changed practically over time i see it like this:
All classes got their share of improvement in both offense and defence. Most notabley skill offense got improved allong with defence being improved, balancing each other out. Seems to me like an effort to mimic the aps resistance we now have in pve also for pvp. This used to be the sins strength, with the average gear improving further and further beyond the quallity of aps gear, it already became less prevalent, now they lost it pretty much entirely and the new primal skills are there to make up for that. Without those new skills, they would probably have the weakest (non-aps) damage output of all classes. That would be pretty wrong for an assasin class. Not saying they might not be OP in some aspects though (neither saying they are)
Zerk is a necessity to keep DPH randomness. A long time ago, we had crit rates of 20 or 30%. They were something special and have their role in pvp strategy. Now we have crit rates so high that you expect nearly all your hits to crit, so it is the standard. Zerk now has the role crit used to have.
Casters didnt really have crit, now they do.
So just archers are left out of the randomness. They just do the same old crit every hit, no zerks. But purge and the highest DPS of all classes makes me not feel sorry for you. b:chuckleEverything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.0 -
WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »So just archers are left out of the randomness. They just do the same old crit every hit, no zerks. But purge and the highest DPS of all classes makes me not feel sorry for you. b:chuckle
i'll gotta disagree with this part. archers got alot of crit% from both rb's (unless vit build which may have gotten less) but if the archer is pure dex which is more common. their crit% would be as high as sins which is 80+ atm +they got a skill to +their crit% sure they dont zerk as much as sins but who can stand their damage for long??? archers are op on their on ijs. if archer zc was to raise as much as sins would be hell and none can disagree with that, would force pwi to give weaker classes in the sense a defense skill.0 -
WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »So just archers are left out of the randomness. They just do the same old crit every hit, no zerks. But purge and the highest DPS of all classes makes me not feel sorry for you. b:chuckle
Agree the dps of an archer is insane, even with cleric's no cooldown great cyclone and skill damage passive boost, archers can still steal aggro in bosses fight even if an archer has lower gear than a cleric by quite a lot, but when a boss is aggro'ed on an archer and an archer got half damage, even a cleric can steal back the aggro b:chuckle.
Psychics and clerics got their dps and dph increased with primal skills, while archers don't, but still their dps is scary.
==
The annoying part of classes with zerkcrits, most of them also have purge, sin with purge bow, bm with r8r weapons, barb with skill+r8r weapon, only seeker can't purge.
We will have a new race coming with anti crit buff, that would help to nerf zerkcrit a bit b:laugh0 -
What the ****...Bow attack speed is slower than axes, how can they be fastest DPS?
Starting from full chi, a Demon archer can cast 3 spark about 5 times in quick succession with a decent genie. Very limited DPS spike, then nothing. Probably worse than BM afterwards, least of all sins.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »What the ****...Bow attack speed is slower than axes, how can they be fastest DPS?
Starting from full chi, a Demon archer can cast 3 spark about 5 times in quick succession with a decent genie. Very limited DPS spike, then nothing. Probably worse than BM afterwards, least of all sins.
He said highest DPS not fastest DPS wtf are you reading? And archers have more than 2x the physical attack of sins. Please don't make me pull out the calc.b:laugh0 -
DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »He said highest DPS not fastest DPS wtf are you reading? And archers have more than 2x the physical attack of sins. Please don't make me pull out the calc.b:laugh
Are... are you really about to try and claim with a straight face that archers out-DPS sins? Really?!(Insert fancy image here)0 -
Are... are you really about to try and claim with a straight face that archers out-DPS sins? Really?!
In terms of DPS, yes. Unless a sin is extremely lucky with zerk crits, and archer will out DPS the sin.
This is for PvE, not PvP, remember that. Especially with the anti-melee auto attack buff craze, any sin that doesn't have Elimination falls further behind.
If the sin is not APS, then this becomes even more true, but it varies from case to case. And because there are so many factors, I'd rather not. I'll leave it at that.0 -
Are... are you really about to try and claim with a straight face that archers out-DPS sins? Really?!
Its hard to say for sure now. I think i wrote this already in this thread. When primal was new, sins were a joke. Not only did they absolutely never steal agro (while most caster classes can do so if they are well enough equiped and archers do it often) also, the more sins you had in your FSP squad, the slower the run would be.
Nowadays that most sins have their primals, they still are not the most common agro stealing class. That is still archers by a big margin. If i see +12 archers in squad, there is a very good chance he will have agro. If he has a tome and 105, its almost inevitable. Casters sometimes do, but semi-rarely. They need to be fully endgame and even then, they may need a crit. Sins are a more difficult subject...
They sometimes do steal agro, but i dont know how consistent they can do it. Very often they steal agro in the first second of fighting toad. Thats logical, if they start out with their strongest new primal skill and i dont zerk crit on the first hit, obviously they will have agro. I think this is the result of me repeatedly writing on the forums that sins are not very good DDs and them wanting to prove something.
I havent really seen any sin have agro at the end of a mushi fight though so it doesnt seem like they consistently out DD me. I have to word it carefull though, or stealthsai might come to prove me wrong. b:pleased (he did that before, but the whole squad was so OP and complete with debuffs that every boss, even muchi died in seconds so it was hard to judge and in that kind of setting, a single zerk crit will be decisive.)
So it seems that they have the potential to be top DD, but then 95% dont seem to know how to do it. That does seem logical anyway. Archers dont have to do much provide good DD, other classes need to put in a little more efford.
All that on APS resistant bosses ofcourse. On old fashioned bosses, APS is still king by such a huge margin there is no contest.Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.0 -
Suddenly the situation shifts to anti-melee auto bosses only...
K if you can't auto, and archer gets to auto, it's pretty meaningless to say archer has "highest DPS." That's like saying ranged can kill more Tiger mobs than melee because ranged.Elena Costel: I wash my hands of this affair.
Legerity: *drags you back* *stains your hands with said affair*
Elena Costel: Noooo... I don't want to have a dirty affair with Lady Legerity...
Qui: b:dirty0 -
Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »Suddenly the situation shifts to anti-melee auto bosses only...
K if you can't auto, and archer gets to auto, it's pretty meaningless to say archer has "highest DPS." That's like saying ranged can kill more Tiger mobs than melee because ranged.
I completely agree with the part I bolded, and underline, I understand why you used that analogy, but range dominates all mobs not just the tigers (assuming you mean the event on monday nights (for most anyways)) I think a better analogy for it would be something like... saying it's like a saying a crocodile is the best walker on land while only comparing it to a turtle.
Essentially I agree with you, no one should claim something is the 'best' at something when its just one tiny truth of a much bigger picture.Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »-snip-
I have aggro alot in fsp even with well geared archers in the squad (r9rr+10/12 bow) but at toad and muchi i dont want aggro and i know alot of sins who also dont want aggro at muchi because of the rage part he has. When a veno is in the squad i dont mind having aggro at him so i go for it sometimes.
The huge opener of triple spark, power dash, sometimes frenzy and all the debuffs on the boss (mostly DG, Amp, Extreme and mire) combined with life hunter is enough to steal aggro and hold it for the rest of the fight.
I think the damage from life hunter is very good compared to other skills we got and it mostly is enough to out dd the other people in the squad.
Only rarely i have a squad where i lose aggro and thats to people who outgear me by alot and im only r9rr+10 with one S card and rest A mostly unleveled or not important to pve damage.
What i dont understand is that archers get away with aps no problem but when a sin does it everyone loses their mind.
Weird b:bye0 -
Honestly i say get rid of rrr9 procs all of them whipe them clean. no sac strike or any lower version. Insead in all of thems place give 20 Def levels and be done with the whole rrr9 wep proc argueing ( Has a RRR9 Barb/Wizard and find that to be fair even tho wizards to no have a anti stun skill ( unless u count fighting agenst someone who does basic hits like a aps sin or a barb or seeker between skill attacks )0
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WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »Its hard to say for sure now. I think i wrote this already in this thread. When primal was new, sins were a joke. Not only did they absolutely never steal agro (while most caster classes can do so if they are well enough equiped and archers do it often) also, the more sins you had in your FSP squad, the slower the run would be.
Nowadays that most sins have their primals, they still are not the most common agro stealing class. That is still archers by a big margin. If i see +12 archers in squad, there is a very good chance he will have agro. If he has a tome and 105, its almost inevitable. Casters sometimes do, but semi-rarely. They need to be fully endgame and even then, they may need a crit. Sins are a more difficult subject...
They sometimes do steal agro, but i dont know how consistent they can do it. Very often they steal agro in the first second of fighting toad. Thats logical, if they start out with their strongest new primal skill and i dont zerk crit on the first hit, obviously they will have agro. I think this is the result of me repeatedly writing on the forums that sins are not very good DDs and them wanting to prove something.
I havent really seen any sin have agro at the end of a mushi fight though so it doesnt seem like they consistently out DD me. I have to word it carefull though, or stealthsai might come to prove me wrong. b:pleased (he did that before, but the whole squad was so OP and complete with debuffs that every boss, even muchi died in seconds so it was hard to judge and in that kind of setting, a single zerk crit will be decisive.)
So it seems that they have the potential to be top DD, but then 95% dont seem to know how to do it. That does seem logical anyway. Archers dont have to do much provide good DD, other classes need to put in a little more efford.
All that on APS resistant bosses ofcourse. On old fashioned bosses, APS is still king by such a huge margin there is no contest.
Dude i dont know about your barb but it takes a serous OP person to take and hold agro from my barb. I do not care what class it is or how fast it hits. All the same they have to put out some nasty damage to take agro from me and hold it0 -
Of course we get to compare "aps" archers vs skillspam other toons. Thats how they designed the game, archers still get full damage from autoattacks. We do not.
Clearly this is the reason sins got the OP attack skills they gotten in primal. They were the APS class and while everyone blamed the sin players for being morons who could only spark and auto attack, their skills were probably a bit ignored by the developers during the APS era causing them to be the weakest DPSer if APS is not an option. Now they set that straight. Comparing archer APS with sins skillspam makes sence. Doing otherwise does not make sense. This is how the game is today. Not only in PvE, but also in PvP where APS is pretty much off the list for other reasons.
c44102. Replacing the procs with defence levels would totally **** up the game and it would be too hard to kill people. That is at end game, at the level where everyone has +10 weapons and +5 armors it could make more sense.
As for your barbs agro: I dont know what you are trying to imply. Do you tank by using agro skills or by pure DD?
If you use agro skills, you use ream every 3 seconds to take back agro and maybe that is what you mean by the other DDs "not holding it". Now that is something totally different. For well equiped demon strength barbs there is the option of holding agro by pure DD, not with agro skills. While agro skills can take it back every time after it is stolen, you just get partial agro, that is not enough against toad or a frenzied mushi (if no veno to purge it). The other DDs will have to hold back in those situations to make sure that you have 100% continuous agro. Holding it by pure DD means you get all or nothing, if you have the strength to out DD anyone, noone will have to hold back. As i indicated, archers are usually the cultprits that do too much damage. Fortunately that means the boss will get close to them, halving their damage, so if you then just stay near the archer, it will lose its agro again
Since i am APS build and thus have near 200 dex, you could do better by building your demon barb pure strength (mine has just shy of 700, so that could be over 800 with the same equipment or 950 with emperor and triple 105) I think a 950 str demon barb will also no longer have the problem of any archer stealing his agro.Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.0 -
Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »I have aggro alot in fsp even with well geared archers in the squad (r9rr+10/12 bow) but at toad and muchi i dont want aggro and i know alot of sins who also dont want aggro at muchi because of the rage part he has. When a veno is in the squad i dont mind having aggro at him so i go for it sometimes.
The huge opener of triple spark, power dash, sometimes frenzy and all the debuffs on the boss (mostly DG, Amp, Extreme and mire) combined with life hunter is enough to steal aggro and hold it for the rest of the fight.
I think the damage from life hunter is very good compared to other skills we got and it mostly is enough to out dd the other people in the squad.
Only rarely i have a squad where i lose aggro and thats to people who outgear me by alot and im only r9rr+10 with one S card and rest A mostly unleveled or not important to pve damage.
What i dont understand is that archers get away with aps no problem but when a sin does it everyone loses their mind.
Weird b:bye
Sorry...when I read something like "x class doesn't wanna have aggro on mushi cuz of rage..." then I wanna go in rage mode and might kindly ask to wtf is wrong here.
Sure it is hard as hell for the tanking class to pop an IG when he rages...OMG, absolutely deadly. Even aps geared sins could tank that boss, let alone any g16 twink if healed. Just keep aggro and use an IG. Can't be that hard.
For the record. Nothing takes the aggro away from me in FSP. Ever, Ya cept you got that funny seeker that refuse to use heart shatter on a boss but using Soul and Mind Shatter to push the DMG of their beloved Psys/wizzies.but thts a bit unfair to say the least xDD
BTT: Nothing has changed on the behalf of zerkcrits. It's still the same. The fact is that the general dmg got boosted like hell with cards/nuema/passives/spirit.My Barb:
mypers.pw/1.8/#146464
My SB:
mypers.pw/1.8/#1414760 -
Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »I have aggro alot in fsp even with well geared archers in the squad (r9rr+10/12 bow) but at toad and muchi i dont want aggro and i know alot of sins who also dont want aggro at muchi because of the rage part he has. When a veno is in the squad i dont mind having aggro at him so i go for it sometimes.
The huge opener of triple spark, power dash, sometimes frenzy and all the debuffs on the boss (mostly DG, Amp, Extreme and mire) combined with life hunter is enough to steal aggro and hold it for the rest of the fight.
I think the damage from life hunter is very good compared to other skills we got and it mostly is enough to out dd the other people in the squad.
Only rarely i have a squad where i lose aggro and thats to people who outgear me by alot and im only r9rr+10 with one S card and rest A mostly unleveled or not important to pve damage.
What i dont understand is that archers get away with aps no problem but when a sin does it everyone loses their mind.
Weird b:bye
b:sad Whut, you are r9+10 but you're too afraid to pop an IG for mushi? I'm an r9r3+10 archer with also just 1 S-card rest A's, no BP yet I still tank mushi if my DD steals the aggro. When he rages I pop an IG and continue to DD at the same rate, eventhough I know I got a broken bow that never purges. I have to rely on heals from other classes to survive his Bleed yet you are fully self-efficient with BP, but you don't dare to because it requires 1 lousy apoth?
The **** people give aps archers (clawchers right?) is still high enough. Problem with sins is however they do literally nothing else than autoattack+spark, when they can use Focused Mind/Wolf emblem/Powerdash/Subsea to boost their survival rate (survival: Take less/deal more) so much higher, won't even mention Rib Strike. Then they obviously die for not doing those things, and voila, you got yourself a noob aps sin.
Aps is not a problem at all, it's a welcome DD for non-shielded bosses. The problem is not knowing they got more skills that make them a whole lot more usefull not only to themselves but to the entire squad.0 -
Archer auto-attacks are not "full damage" these days. They receive no benefit from endless breeze skill buff passive, mystic invigorate buff, or seeker debuffs. It's pretty easy for a squad of casters to outdamage archers. Sins can easily hold aggro over an equal gear archer with spamming Elimination / Life Hunter with primal deep chill on.WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »Of course we get to compare "aps" archers vs skillspam other toons. Thats how they designed the game, archers still get full damage from autoattacks. We do not.
Autoattacks are getting worse now that level 10 passives are available and will be much worse next expansion once there are squad buffs to lower autoattack damage and rage damage.
[sigpic][/sigpic]
PWI Calculators - aster.ohmydays.net/pw0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »
Archer auto-attacks are not "full damage" these days. They receive no benefit from endless breeze skill buff passive, mystic invigorate buff, or seeker debuffs. It's pretty easy for a squad of casters to outdamage archers. Sins can easily hold aggro over an equal gear archer with spamming Elimination / Life Hunter with primal deep chill on.
Autoattacks are getting worse now that level 10 passives are available and will be much worse next expansion once there are squad buffs to lower autoattack damage and rage damage.
True, they lack that skilldmg bonus.
Still, you say its easy for casters to out DD archers. How does that explain my experience (and surely not only mine) that archers are with a large margin the most common agro stealers and not casters or sins?
Would be interesting to do some tests for real numbers btw
Lets all video record a solo kill on some non threathening and easy to reach aps resist boss like the BH dude in SOT. Then post the results here. Dont use any buffs and debuffs that benefit the whole squad as that would **** up the comparison when some cant or dont cast them. So no mire, EP, HF, etc etc.
Because yes, just looking at the toons tells me that sins should outDD everyone with their chill of the deep, crit chance and double hitting skills. I just dont see it happen much in reality.Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.0 -
The difference comes down to skill. With archers there isn't much difference in DPS between a skilled archer and one on a spark macro. Other classes have much higher damage ceilings due to having stronger skills. The damage bonuses other classes receive can quickly multiply to far beyond anything an archer can do and there certainly are squads that know how to leverage this.
Solo boss damage is not really representative of pve or pvp damage but even in this archer would fail badly at any of the numerous bosses that insist on running into melee range (like every FSP boss).
[sigpic][/sigpic]
PWI Calculators - aster.ohmydays.net/pw0 -
Asterelle - Sanctuary wrote: »The difference comes down to skill. With archers there isn't much difference in DPS between a skilled archer and one on a spark macro. Other classes have much higher damage ceilings due to having stronger skills. The damage bonuses other classes receive can quickly multiply to far beyond anything an archer can do and there certainly are squads that know how to leverage this.
Solo boss damage is not really representative of pve or pvp damage but even in this archer would fail badly at any of the numerous bosses that insist on running into melee range (like every FSP boss).
Ye, what you say about skill makes sense. Its kinda what i thought, but dont want to accept. Because if this is the explanation, that means about 95%+ of players do not get out of their toon whats in there. And surely i understand that some or sometimes one can be lazy when doing PvE stuff (including myself when there are no +12s in squad so i dont need to give it everything) but so many, so often....Everything i write is from PvE perspective unless mentioned otherwise.0 -
Joe - Morai wrote: »...
Sure it is hard as hell for the tanking class to pop an IG when he rages...OMG, absolutely deadly. Even aps geared sins could tank that boss, let alone any g16 twink if healed. Just keep aggro and use an IG. Can't be that hard.
...
Not everyone is carrying around the proper apo/genie to use/let alone has the proper knowledge of when exactly to use them, granted it isn't that hard for me to figure out, and I have pretty easily. It still doesn't change the fact that I rarely carry around apo especially for pve* stuff. (Genies are rather 'broken' for pve... I could delve into that subject a little more but i'll refrain as it is a discussion for another topic/thread. For the record though they probably shouldn't remove/nerf them now.)
--
We all sure love to make comments that are rather off topic on a thread. b:chuckle
b:laugh
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As for the original topic:
Someone already explained it with this new passive every attack is essentially a crit attack, especially with the zerk on weapons.
Personally I agree that they should just do away with the procs on weapons. (*CoughpurifyprocCough*)Ah, Mistakes are so easily made. ~ laura resnick
What kind of message are you sending when you insult my intelligence? ~ Me ~ 5/29/2015 (Yes it is possible someone said this before just no idea who/where.)0 -
I just dont wanna pop an apo for a boss i dont have to tank if i dont want to.Verenor - Morai wrote: »snip
I did it serval times and can continue it but for what? so i can waste 150k each run i dont have to spend when i just can let the barb aggro?Joe - Morai wrote: »snip
as already mentioned, i just dont wanna use an apo i dont need to use.
too hard to understand eh? yea0
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