pwi raised zerkcrits"????

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

ksfe wrote: »

well the question you should be asking is, if puri on rrr9 weap was + could melee's kill anyone??? each hit= puri would be cool since im a mag but would be damage unfair... so why should melee classes be like each hit= zc?? that doesnt seem fair..

Because a casters crit is arguably the same damage as a zerk crit from a sin, and the casters normal hit is the same as a sins critical hit (in theory). This is assuming equal gear (exact same everything). For barbs and BM's, the crit rates are lower, but they get more stats into the damage stat, and higher spike dmg.

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Because a casters crit is arguably the same damage as a zerk crit from a sin, and the casters normal hit is the same as a sins critical hit (in theory). This is assuming equal gear (exact same everything). For barbs and BM's, the crit rates are lower, but they get more stats into the damage stat, and higher spike dmg.

A sins damge is based off of dex, NOT str, or at least that is what is said when you scroll over the stats under the character info screen.

Ergo sins have more damage potential, most bms aren't pure build, most choose to go multi path, which means putting loads of stat points into dex for all weapons, not to mention the few who put points into vit instead of all into str/dex.

As for barbs it also depends on their build too, aps build they put some into dex (more dex than a sin puts into str to wear their weapon) they would have to be a pure strength build to get full potential from axes, most don't go this route due to the rubbish accuracy that would give them.

Sins have the very easy option of just going pure dex - what is needed for str for weapons/armor, therefore their damage potential is MUCH higher than MOST bms/barbs ever will be.

--

As I am implying sins have WAY more damage potential before crit/zerk crits even come into the picture. That coupled with a sins chill of the deep, they really are a force to be wary off.

---

EDIT:

As for the puri bit...

That proc is bloody freaking broken, even though it is easier to counter, there are still plenty of times where it completely erases everything a bm throws at a caster, save the new paralyze skill.

I do agree with you on the zerk crit, not everyone of our hits should be crit enhanced, but at least we still have to get up close, which really isn't all that easy. (doable, but not easy... there are far too many skills to keep melees at bay/get away from them once they're near/or just plain outright kill them)

ksfe

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Because a casters crit is arguably the same damage as a zerk crit from a sin, and the casters normal hit is the same as a sins critical hit (in theory). This is assuming equal gear (exact same everything). For barbs and BM's, the crit rates are lower, but they get more stats into the damage stat, and higher spike dmg.

that's true at a point.. but when u have a class that's dph and got skills that can turn dph into aps + zcs that's like x4 the damage of a caster in seconds people forget that caster is call casters cauz they gotta cast.. unlike melee DD's that got auto atk in sum cases not only sins can hit u 3 atks in under 2 seconds... dont forget that part..

WannaBM - Archosaur

The stats arent the only think ofc slivaf.

Archers attack more than once per second.
I spam about 0.8-0.9 skills per second.
BMs and sins cast their skills slightly slower.
Casters cast their skills much slower.

The slow cast speed of casters is counterbalanced by 1 multiplier per 100 stat points instead of 150 as well as a totally pure magic build. Their DPH is massively bigger than that of the mellees.

If indeed a casters normal hit would be comparable to a mellees crit and a casters crit would be our zerk-crit, the casters would do much less DPS because their spells cast slower then the mellee attacks.

Comparing DPS happens all the time in PvE. I do think demon str barbs might have the highest damage potential since even with a partly dex build and not total end game gear, noone with worse equipment ever steals agro, and of those who are more endgame only some do. This is hard to say though because i dont know if others use both CE and thee to be permasparked like i do.

Comparing other classes, clearly the dex classes come out on top, Archers are the most common agro stealers, sins seem to depend very very much on who controlls them. Casters arent that far behind though. While they steal agro more rarely, it still happens sometimes. So looking 2 paragraphs up, their crit might wel out DD our zerk crits.

Not that any of this should be taken as a reason to say anything about balance though. Balance depends on many more things and as i indicated earlier is a different thing in 1v1 vs mass pvp. 1v1 i feel OP, mass pvp i feel kinda sad. This whole discussion only came to be in reaction to a caster commenting about how hard the mellees can hit. Looking at dph, that was imo a totally misplaced comment

Deadalus - Harshlands

ksfe wrote: »

that's true at a point.. but when u have a class that's dph and got skills that can turn dph into aps + zcs that's like x4 the damage of a caster in seconds people forget that caster is call casters cauz they gotta cast.. unlike melee DD's that got auto atk in sum cases not only sins can hit u 3 atks in under 2 seconds... dont forget that part..

people still think APS matters in pvp? okay.


And no i dont think "zerk crits" or only "zerk" is touched. The only thing that changed is crits alone, zerk is still around 25% (GoF)

The argument that the passives are the reason you zerk crit more is pretty much the same as that you zerk crit more when you level up or get the 100 dex from r9rr set effect. pretty stupid argument if you ask me and i dont see other classes complain about not getting more crit either, so they get the same as everyone is. I dont understand the complains here lol.

zerk crits happens more yea sure because you have more chances to crit, but that doesnt mean that pwi "raised the zerk crits".

yea... b:bye

WannaBM - Archosaur

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

And no i dont think "zerk crits" or only "zerk" is touched. The only thing that changed is crits alone, zerk is still around 25% (GoF)

first 27, now 25....

Stop it now ! Here: 20% http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Gear_Addons

Slivaf - Dreamweaver

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

The stats arent the only think ofc slivaf.

Archers attack more than once per second.
I spam about 0.8-0.9 skills per second.
BMs and sins cast their skills slightly slower.
Casters cast their skills much slower.

The slow cast speed of casters is counterbalanced by 1 multiplier per 100 stat points instead of 150 as well as a totally pure magic build. Their DPH is massively bigger than that of the mellees.

*snip*

Aye its even further counter balanced by the fact they can hit from anywhere at any time, that 'slower' cast rate hardly effects me on any of the caster class that I have played, the element of surprise IS an insanely useful tool.

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As for everything else I have to agree with you.

Damage potential (based on the most 'popular' build.) or at least how I see it.

Weakest to highest (going to be a bit lazy, I realize certain classes are far stronger than others, I.E psys over wizards.)

Anyways without further ado.

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EDITED (had to rethink that a bit)

Barbarians (Tank build.. going off of the build suggestion that was in the barb forums... where 146ish points get put into vit, 300 str, and 54 dex)
Blademasters (all weapon path, with nothing in vit... but if some is put into vit they are the weakest potential... it just really depends on the build... REGARDLESS of the class.)
Assassins/Archers (Tied due to needing the same strength to equip their armor, the rest usually goes into dex which effects both daggers, and ranged damage.)
Then every other class in game, most choose to go pure build meaning minimum into strength/none in vit rest into magic.)

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Again that is just the stats alone/damage potential from stats, obviously this doesn't include power from skills, and other little nuances that effect damage. I.E rings/belts/necklace/cards etc.

Deadalus - Harshlands

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

first 27, now 25....

Stop it now ! Here: 20% http://pwi-wiki.perfectworld.com/index.php/Gear_Addons

Dude with so many (?) on that side i fail to see the reason to belive the rate to be 20%.
It can be 20~25% see if i care.

I saw people arguing here that GoF is 15% and SS is 10%, GoF 20% and SS 15%, GoF 25% SS 20% and so on i stick with 20~25% because i have GoF and just assume its a 1 in 4 chance to zerk.

ksfe

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

people still think APS matters in pvp? okay.

oh aps dont matter??? well nerf sins new primal skill.. dont forget that's dph in the form of aps....b:chuckle

WannaBM - Archosaur

Deadalus - Harshlands wrote: »

Dude with so many (?) on that side i fail to see the reason to belive the rate to be 20%.

We have exactly opposing ways of looking at question marks. Not just on that site, but also in people posting on forums for example.

When people are honest about what they dont know, i am much more inclined to believe what they claim they do know.

Deadalus - Harshlands

ksfe wrote: »

oh aps dont matter??? well nerf sins new primal skill.. dont forget that's dph in the form of aps....b:chuckle

People always find ways to QQ on a class, i can understand that people QQ about tidal and even myself thinks that tidal is op as **** (especially sage) and elimination is op too but thats about it.
What you gonna do, take everything away from a sin but APS and still complain because he 5aps your *** into oblivion? sure.

Life Hunter is strong yes but nothing to QQ about realy. i dont see anything wrong with it, it hits twice (which triggers the puri even faster) fairly strong for an endgame skill (note that sins where left in the desert with morai skills so its fair that we get something useful) and the cast/cooldown is fairly low or better said non existent.

I can see that you mean "aps" in terms of life hunter but even that is like 2 attacks each second and 1 attack every other.
Back then you qq about auto attack be so strong omg qq and now this.

QQ about the things that matters, maybe Tidal Protection.


Oh wops this is not a QQ thread about sins im sorry t derail so hard.

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

We have exactly opposing ways of looking at question marks. Not just on that site, but also in people posting on forums for example.

When people are honest about what they dont know, i am much more inclined to believe what they claim they do know.

Still its not a number you can proof. saying its 20% is not something you know for 100% sure.

The number is a number which was brought up from someone who hit some target for 1000~ times and calculated here and there and came to the conclusion to round it up/down to 20%.

When i see proofe for it sure i belive you or this site but you cant proofe it, it still can be 25% no? b:shocked

WannaBM - Archosaur

Proof does not exist no.

But when there is a strong sign that it is probably 20%, i think it is a bit stupid to hold to a 25% belief.

Deadalus - Harshlands

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

Proof does not exist no.

But when there is a strong sign that it is probably 20%, i think it is a bit stupid to hold to a 25% belief.

Show me that strong sign. Dont post the link again lol

WannaBM - Archosaur

You start to be like a religious person debating.

No i cant prove god didnt put the dino fosiles into the ground to mislead us. Ok, I wont link to darwins "origin of spicies" again.

Quilue - Sanctuary

WannaBM - Archosaur wrote: »

When about 80-90% of the squad excluding the catabarbs are ranged, there is no other option then to run at ranged squads. Backup is nice, but doesnt prevent the enemy from hitting you. Probably thats your ranged toon players perspective. Ranged toons can stay safe behind their backup. Mellees are the ones in front, before they can hit anyone, they will get into range of several enemies. Backup cant prevent them from targetting you together.

No you are not getting the point. Amongst factions of similar strength, coordinated melee (immune) runs are going to be making the real difference. You're not rushing an enemy line so you can be focus fired, you are breaking them up to get them ***** by your DDs.

Good melees who know what they are doing are center pieces in any TW or massed PvP. Say with archer, you can be the best archer in the world, max gear no lag, you are still not going to make as much difference as a melee.

Complaining about mass PvP as a melee would be as bad as clerics saying they are worse off in mass PvP.

WannaBM - Archosaur

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

No you are not getting the point. Amongst factions of similar strength, coordinated melee (immune) runs are going to be driving a push forward and making the real difference. You're not rushing an enemy line so you can be focus fired, you are breaking them up to get ***** by your DDs.

Good melees who know what they are doing are center pieces in any TW or massed PvP.

Ok, i see the point there. Maybe we need to improve communication then
Before i started doing my first TW, i joked with my BM buddy that we would just treat the enemy as mobs and HF-Arma them like we do with mobs. We havent gotten a single combination of HF arma off yet in the chaos that is reality b:laugh I kinda gave up on that thought and dismissed it as unrealistic.

So that idea was not too far off of what we should be aiming to achieve then ? Even if we wont succeed in killing everything in a 12m radius, but only just scatter them and get them moving ? (out of fear for the theoretical potential HF-Arma (for if there is nothing much to fear for them, they wont really break up. Im only a wannabe BM, i dont have real HF to be feared and just an armageddon from a non-vit barb will hurt some people, but 1-shot noone (and the target rarely stays around long enough to do an onslought/sunder - arma)

Deceptistar - Sanctuary

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Not sure what a seekers range is, but their range is deadly.

a deadly 2 ft shorter than yours... 28 ._.

WannaBM - Archosaur

If we look at a single skill to judge a classes range. Wow barbs are OP. We have the king of ranged skills.

35meter range + 20m AOE range.

Too bad its 1 skill, costing 2 sparks and a 1 minute cooldown
(nevertheless i will admit i am very happy with this skill and its triple dmg vs flyers, i dont think it is a reason for casters to argue that sins and barbs are better ranged classes)

DionDagger - Dreamweaver

Quilue - Sanctuary wrote: »

No you are not getting the point. Amongst factions of similar strength, coordinated melee (immune) runs are going to be making the real difference. You're not rushing an enemy line so you can be focus fired, you are breaking them up to get them ***** by your DDs.

Good melees who know what they are doing are center pieces in any TW or massed PvP. Say with archer, you can be the best archer in the world, max gear no lag, you are still not going to make as much difference as a melee.

Complaining about mass PvP as a melee would be as bad as clerics saying they are worse off in mass PvP.

So being able to AoE purge people with BoA makes not as much difference as say a melee class that most people probably saw a mile away? And AD+IGed by the time he got there?

Wow the element of suprise doesn't mean anything to you does it? But yet you would probably argue stealth......I don't even. Just no.

Eoria - Harshlands

DionDagger - Dreamweaver wrote: »

So being able to AoE purge people with BoA makes not as much difference as say a melee class that most people probably saw a mile away? And AD+IGed by the time he got there?

Wow the element of suprise doesn't mean anything to you does it? But yet you would probably argue stealth......I don't even. Just no.

BMs and venos win TW. Everyone else's job is just that much easier when those two classes are played well. If you can't figure out the hows and whys, then lol...

DEMHEALSMAN - Dreamweaver

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

BMs and venos win TW. Everyone else's job is just that much easier when those two classes are played well. If you can't figure out the hows and whys, then lol...

But that's like, your opinion.
BM's and venos are nothing if the rest isn't there.
The same goes for that any other class are nothing if the bm or veno isn't there.

Your way of thinking is the cancer of teamplay in pwi, centering too much attention to the abilities of 1 or 2 classes.

ksfe

guys keep it clean.. dont violate or swear..

opkossy

The funny thing is that while you're so focused on me, you seem to forget that there are three other mods, any of whom can and will deal with problem posts as we're supposed to.

Just because I presented a fact about something here doesn't mean that you get to mouth off at me for if someone violates a rule and it gets moderated.

Toraah - Archosaur

OPKossy wrote: »

That number was pulled out of the crapper.

20% chance of zerk with GoF means that you can't have a chance above 20% to zerkcrit even if you have the 100% crit rate needed to make every zerk a zerkcrit. In any situation with a lower crit chance (aka what happens when actually playing the game as all melees don't run around with 100% crit 24/7), your ability to zerkcrit will drop.


But people like making **** up to suit their needs. "TT drop rate nerfed" threads, anyone?

I've been told the zerk chance for gof is 30 or 33%. That's what I was going off

Seems that it has been confirmed to be 20% so, I'll correct it to 16% chance to zerk crit

opkossy

Toraah - Archosaur wrote: »

I've been told the zerk chance for gof is 30 or 33%. That's what I was going off

Seems that it has been confirmed to be 20% so, I'll correct it to 16% chance to zerk crit

Ah. My apologies, then. Seems I've become a bit too used to people making stuff up to suit their needs, I'm afraid. b:surrender

ksfe

OPKossy wrote: »

The funny thing is that while you're so focused on me, you seem to forget that there are three other mods, any of whom can and will deal with problem posts as we're supposed to.

Just because I presented a fact about something here doesn't mean that you get to mouth off at me for if someone violates a rule and it gets moderated.

you're taking it the wrong way mate.. tryna keep everything clean so the post doesnt be taken down by any of yall b:cute

ksfe

b:sad IK how to fix this... give mystics PERMA cragglord b:pleased

Quilue - Sanctuary

That's going into some sort of stupid extreme. Not saying having ranged DD is bad or unnecessary, but melees are not exactly gimped in mass PvP. Just a few melees can scatter entire groups or force them to use immunities, completely leaving them open to ranged attack and allowing the cat forward. There is simply no denying it.

Like I said, complaining about not getting in as many hits as melees in group PvP is like clerics complaining they can't kill when they are busy healing.

Keisari - Raging Tide

If there will be a caster that can cast while moving...then let's have archers pewpew while moving too, ofc with slight accuracy-nerf!

jwillson123

SerenityCNB - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Yes. I do mean a 35 meter range on those skills. With sins in particular, the question is who can attack first, and sins are able to control who attacks first, thanks to their stealth abilities. (Not talking about stealth detection apoth here.), Thanks to tidal, they can avoid a lot of CC skills as well and close quickly. My main point is that a sin's maximum range is greater than a casters maximum range, and they do have great abilities for closing the distance. I'm not saying that they're unkiteable, or anything. Often in NW, they pop stealth on me, I absolute domain, and attack.

I'm not trying to turn this into an attack against sins. Or a QQ Nerf sins. That's not what I mean. My purpose of posting this was the mention of casters being casters being crybabies with high range, and high damage output, so what more do we want. I was trying to mention some of the advantages and disadvantages that each group possesses. A skill that allows one to instantly close the gap is a skill that suddenly turns a 35 meter range into a sin's deadzone. Not that you can't escape it if you respond quick enough, but once that sin teleports to you, they do open up a lot more possibilities for themselves. I mentioned sins in particular because its common knowledge that archers have great range. In regards to sins, some people don't take their full range into account because they are seen as a melee based class. That is why I mentioned them specifically. But that was not for the purpose of complaining about their abilities, nor range, as I didn't want to derail the thread.

I mentioned the reason behind what I feel is increasing the amount of zerk crits in my previous post, so once again, I'm going to point out that the main issue in my opinion is the fact that zerk crits exist at all...and purify proc...and purge proc, and many of the other procs. I personally believe that class balance needs to be done.

b:laugh the 35 range is a joke

That is why I created this thread before.
http://pwi-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1714941

I actually try to get advantage of that 35 range and it did not go well.
I knife throw caster nuke me I die lol. I try it in NW and open world map.
Maybe is only effective for people with very low ping rate.


It only takes 2 second for a caster to be on range and that is just by running not using purify proc or holypath.
We have 2 skills to instantly close the gap.
shadow teleport great skill 35 range that also stuns the downside? Terrible 3 minute cooldown!

shadow jump Range　30.0　and 35 range for demon. Great skill the downside?
After we jump our character stops for 1 second giving plenty of time for caster to cast and nuke us before we can attack or the nuke will hit us when sin casting a skill.
I have been nuked before just after I teleport to them. When I landed in front of caster the nuke hit me before I could cast a skill.

Clerics can't not be kited when they casting skill even if you are 50 meters away they will hit you.
Example I knife throw a cleric.
Cleric walks foward and is casting wild thunder.Even if I use holy path to run as far away as possible the same moment cleric is casting the nuke will hit me when it finish casting no matter how far away I can get.
Kiting a melee skill while he is casting skill for example will cancel the skill casting with caster this will not happen.



Knife throw is only deadly for people who have lower gear than yours or else it will tickle them.
Yes R9r3 daggers knife throw can 1 shot a full G16 caster with below average refines with knife throw but only if it zerk crits.The skill just tickle full R9r3 casters.



Just as someone else mentioned a Crit from a melee is basically the same damage as a normal nuke actually crit does less damage.
A Critical nuke will out DD a Zerk Crit.
So 16% to zerk crit melee vs 30%+ Crit Nuke.
Casters have the advantage.
Primal crit passive 10% + 20% crit I think new appo gives 20% crit aswell as spirit maybe wrong? I can not check now server down...

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