Number of Days to Go from lv90 to lv100

It is humorous how so many avoid quantifying things in discussions like this.

First, what is a reasonable time frame in hours played to get from 90 to 100, on a first time new player with no main to act as a sugar daddy? Instead we get back and forth bickering of "it's too long" versus "its too short and easy."

Second, please stop reporting your leveling times with vague references to days or weeks or even months, when you avoid actually quantifying the time in hours spent playing. If your time rich, a day could mean 20-24hours playing time. If your a working stiff, a day may mean 3-4 hours in the evenings after work. Giving your times in things like days, weeks or months is meaningless and not helpful.

Third, as the OP listed there are a plethora of ways to gain experience, and it all looks quite juicy until one actually tries to fit completing more than a few in a typical 3-4 hour play session that is the average for most MMO players.

... glancing over the thread, I think the consensus is that killing off FCC means people have to learn their toon in order to level it. Clueless ones die too often and leave. Good. Forces everyone to actually know how to play their toon, that'll cut back on the zergling behaviour I sometimes see in FSP.

Well played, PWI. Well played. b:chuckle

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

but running FC at actual level would teach you the same thing as any bh

This, I agree with. The bosses are varied and interesting, the style of the instance being based around large pulls helps teach as well, and it's a very good instance to learn in overall when done at-level.


Now how often is it actually done in full at level instead of either being EXP room getting bought after someone else solo'd it, having some high level join the squad and blaze through everything because QQ TOO HARD 4 US 2 DO AT DA LEVEL TEH INSTANCE WAS MAED 4, glitching the bosses because of being too lazy/weak/noob/etc to handle fighting the bosses properly, skipping a certain boss because goon glitch no longer exists making it "not worth it", stopping after the EXP room for the plethora of excuses people come up with, or using a squad that's either well above the level or well above the gear that the instance was designed for and thus nullifying any chance of learning anything in there to begin with?

Running it as it was meant to be run happens maybe a few times a month per server TOPS. And that's being generous in the estimate. Meanwhile all the shortcuts that let people avoid learning anything? Those happen ALL the bloody time. When was the last time you saw a 75-85 squad go in and clear the entire instance including the back rooms? Hell, when was the last time you saw that level range period without them having either some overleveled person clearing for them or it being reawakened players who have gear good enough that they'd have to be higher than a kite in a hurricane to fail? Before hypers existed when it was just a new EXP instance, full runs were the norm, not the exception. 75-85? We got this easy.

Post-hypers? Good luck getting a 75-85 squad. You'll need even more luck to keep it that way because you'll always have that one person saying they'll bring their main to clear. Oh and you'll need even MORE luck to have these people not glitch the bosses, or do everything on the path to the EXP room. And staying after you clear that room? Keep dreaming. They'll all leave saying the back half is impossible or how it takes too long or how they don't have any time or one of the plethora of reasons that they suddenly come up with to not do it even if it was advertised as a full run. Oh and speaking of which, full run to these people nowadays means "All the way to the EXP room" instead of... ya know... the FULL THING.





So yeah. Sure it can help people learn if people could be bothered to play through the instance.... but compared to buying heads and then tab F1ing, they really don't see any reason to actually apply themselves and thus we get more powerleveled idiots out of the place than if they had been picked off early on from quests/BH/grinding/actually playing the game because they were too incompetent to keep up. Sure, it doesn't apply to everyone. Plenty of noobs who leveled without frost and people who (ab)used frost and wound up being fairly skilled. But frost produces more noobs at a faster rate without them getting weeded out as easily and while completely destroying all low level content because who cares about that when you can powerlevel to endgame and then get bored of doing the dailies there.

I even see the argument tossed around that killing Frost as an instance (it's still good EXP. Just not as obscene as it was with hypers) is oh-so-horrible... while these same people completely ignore that frost killed off everything low game. Rebirths, TT, PQ, FBs, BHs, PV, general questing? All that gets killed by hyper enabled frost. Yet making all of those viable again at the cost of causing the instant gratification crowd to decide Frost is no longer worth it (again, it's still good EXP, just not obscene EXP) is a huge blow and we need to not be killing instances and so on and so forth.






Anyways, I've rambled on enough and moved from my original point. Yes, I agree Frost can be a great teaching instance under certain conditions. However, I feel those conditions are largely invalidated with how it's normally used making it wind up teaching nothing of value. That said, I'd have preferred a minimum level to enter Frost while still allowing hypers to work in there.

FCC needs:
- A bunch of "?" level mobs in the mix so sins can't sneak their way to victory. Those mobs should be ranged with a fast, low damage attack to force a sin out of stealth. TT needs these as well. Badly.
- Zombie heads should have a ranged attack as well. A weak magical AOE wouldn't be a bad idea. Something potent enough to take out folk who, levelwise, should not be there, in one shot.
- Some ranged AOE mobs in the XP room, mixed in with the packs.

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

You can adjust that attitude of yours to go with anything. Someone makes alot of money in their full time job and only plays 2 hours a day. They want endgame gears and levels instantly, so they dump large amount of cash into the game and surpass your years of 'earning' in 2 days.
But hey, they put more money into the game. If you feel at a disadvantage because of it, rightfully so. You should get out what you put in.
If you have 8 hours a day to devote to dailies in this game, all the power to you. A lot of people do not. They should not have to slave dailies for hours every day to get any significant progress. There are people from other walks of life than yours.

You are forgetting that anything a heavy cash shopper can get in a hurry a non cash shopper can get to. Just a bit slower and with some effort. A disadvantage? Only when it comes to time spent on the game. I know a lot of people who have full r9rrr +12 JOSD and all without spending any real life money in the game. In the end how are they disadvantaged to those who did spend RL money in the game? They aren't unless you consider your own time in game a commodity of some sort.

They may want end game level and gears instantly. I may want my veno to summon all 10 pets at once and set to defend in NW. I may want bramble hood and guard to work in PvP in the open map like it once did. I may want a lot of things but all that is irrelevant if it doesn't fit what the game allows even if it once did. With that said it doesn't matter if one spends a son of money in the game if that money isn't going to allow them to level in 2 hours as much as one does in 6 or 8 hours. last time I checked even with FC being sold as an EXP instance with hypers I never saw anything in the Cash shop or in any catshop an item which would allow one to level their cultis instantly.

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I didn't forget anything....you missed the point entirely. Though kind of drove it home. You know that elitism that can come from people who cashshop heavy? Or the r9rr or GTFO syndrome? People with all kinds of time to farm 8~12 hours a day can also succumb to that kind of elitism. Everyone can farm 8+ hours a day or GTFO, you don't deserve to play or enjoy yourself if you cannot commit at least that.
Seeing a lot of that coming out of this FC fiasco.
Though, why wouldn't you consider time a commodity?

It's called "**** you, got mine" and "I had to walk 15 miles back and forth through the snow to go to school so everyone else should have to as well". b:surrender

I could go on, but uhh...with these types of people, they will never listen.

Why rush somewhere and then post in the world chat - i'm bored?!?

Eoria - Harshlands wrote: »

It's called "**** you, got mine" and "I had to walk 15 miles back and forth through the snow, UP HILL BOTH WAYS to go to school so everyone else should have to as well". b:surrender

I could go on, but uhh...with these types of people, they will never listen.

Fixed for you. b:victory

OPKossy wrote: »

This, I agree with. The bosses are varied and interesting, the style of the instance being based around large pulls helps teach as well, and it's a very good instance to learn in overall when done at-level.


Now how often is it actually done in full at level instead of either being EXP room getting bought after someone else solo'd it, having some high level join the squad and blaze through everything because QQ TOO HARD 4 US 2 DO AT DA LEVEL TEH INSTANCE WAS MAED 4, glitching the bosses because of being too lazy/weak/noob/etc to handle fighting the bosses properly, skipping a certain boss because goon glitch no longer exists making it "not worth it", stopping after the EXP room for the plethora of excuses people come up with, or using a squad that's either well above the level or well above the gear that the instance was designed for and thus nullifying any chance of learning anything in there to begin with?

Running it as it was meant to be run happens maybe a few times a month per server TOPS. And that's being generous in the estimate. Meanwhile all the shortcuts that let people avoid learning anything? Those happen ALL the bloody time. When was the last time you saw a 75-85 squad go in and clear the entire instance including the back rooms? Hell, when was the last time you saw that level range period without them having either some overleveled person clearing for them or it being reawakened players who have gear good enough that they'd have to be higher than a kite in a hurricane to fail? Before hypers existed when it was just a new EXP instance, full runs were the norm, not the exception. 75-85? We got this easy.

Post-hypers? Good luck getting a 75-85 squad. You'll need even more luck to keep it that way because you'll always have that one person saying they'll bring their main to clear. Oh and you'll need even MORE luck to have these people not glitch the bosses, or do everything on the path to the EXP room. And staying after you clear that room? Keep dreaming. They'll all leave saying the back half is impossible or how it takes too long or how they don't have any time or one of the plethora of reasons that they suddenly come up with to not do it even if it was advertised as a full run. Oh and speaking of which, full run to these people nowadays means "All the way to the EXP room" instead of... ya know... the FULL THING.





So yeah. Sure it can help people learn if people could be bothered to play through the instance.... but compared to buying heads and then tab F1ing, they really don't see any reason to actually apply themselves and thus we get more powerleveled idiots out of the place than if they had been picked off early on from quests/BH/grinding/actually playing the game because they were too incompetent to keep up. Sure, it doesn't apply to everyone. Plenty of noobs who leveled without frost and people who (ab)used frost and wound up being fairly skilled. But frost produces more noobs at a faster rate without them getting weeded out as easily and while completely destroying all low level content because who cares about that when you can powerlevel to endgame and then get bored of doing the dailies there.

I even see the argument tossed around that killing Frost as an instance (it's still good EXP. Just not as obscene as it was with hypers) is oh-so-horrible... while these same people completely ignore that frost killed off everything low game. Rebirths, TT, PQ, FBs, BHs, PV, general questing? All that gets killed by hyper enabled frost. Yet making all of those viable again at the cost of causing the instant gratification crowd to decide Frost is no longer worth it (again, it's still good EXP, just not obscene EXP) is a huge blow and we need to not be killing instances and so on and so forth.






Anyways, I've rambled on enough and moved from my original point. Yes, I agree Frost can be a great teaching instance under certain conditions. However, I feel those conditions are largely invalidated with how it's normally used making it wind up teaching nothing of value. That said, I'd have preferred a minimum level to enter Frost while still allowing hypers to work in there.

I agree with almost what you said ...but talking about high lvl soloing for ppl isnt the same thing when a Bh lets say 69 is done with the help of a lvl100+?
When my sin was lvl80+ i was in many fc sqauds run. Some runs took like maximum 15-20 min. I am talking about the time when rb wasnt in the game yet.
but i also was in sqauds that took us 1 hour to finish. You know cause a player follow the sin when the sin is in stealth going to kill shade or the puller pulls more than he can handle or someone goes afk forgetting to came back while the hypers of the others were running. In those situation i completely understood and agreed with someone saying: Ill vring my main to solo this and bring back this char at big room. But only in those situations.
and full run means starting from first mob till Holleen including jail boss too.

OPKossy wrote: »

Yeah. I agree on the BH part too, which is why I've never been a fan of having some APS whatever come in and run the BH while a squad sat back and watched. In fact, I actively avoid inviting people high enough above the BH level range that it becomes invalidated because of that. Fortunately, things like PV and Rebirth are level restricted, so that makes it much easier to avoid staring at someone else as they solo things.


As for some of the scenarios you mentioned, really the squad lead should be willing to kick people who do that sort of thing. Things like suddenly going AFK for half the run with no notice, not contributing at all even while there, repeatedly making the same mistakes even after being told what to/not to do, and so on all used to earn people that did those things kicks (at least, more often than not in my experience) and not just in frost. Which led to them either learning to improve... or them dropping like flies and being stuck in a specific level range/quitting so they didn't hinder others who did gain more skill over time. At least on average.


Totally agree that a full run is supposed to be all the bosses and going to the very end. It's just that, in practice, very few people kept doing that after hypers became a part of the mix with Frost and people started to realize they could "save time" by stopping short at heads. Even though heads give such a ****ty EXP:Spirit ratio that you gimp yourself on skills for a long time when you focus on them and the back "half" of Frost gives as much EXP as the first half but can be done significantly faster as long as the squad isn't full of total idiots. Though the nerf to dragoon EXP didn't help with that regards, admittedly.

About BH... that moment when a player invites 3 lvl 100+ to help with bh51b:chuckleb: And when you leave he pm you asking:
-why yu left?
- oh i dont know, do yu think the other 2players 100+ wont be ok without me?b:chuckle

I wasn't aware PWI is such a meritocracy based game. Especially judging from the updates quality lately.

I personally know people with medical conditions that enjoy playing the game. Are they not allowed to play it? Should they crawl into a cave and never play this game? Yes they overcompensate a lot, yes they will never learn their own OR any other class for that matter, but in the end its only a game. I help them out, I have fun with them in TS/RaidCall/Vent. I do not care. Its a GAME.

In the end, i still do not get it. Does PWI want to prolong its life or is this a trend to get people to leave it? Or does PWI simply want to get rid of the so called "incompetent" players, who are really nice people who want to spend time with their friends, or just clicking around doing nothing rlly?


I would like to know which of the people that are so high and might here saying FC destroyed the game, have not used it? For a long time?

You know what? I personally wanted to LEGALLY try out all the classes at lvl 100 stuff. It is clear to me that this is never happening now.

LostPoet - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I have no issues with leveling with this method. But i would like to mention a few things:
This takes dedicated time, of which most people don't have because of either school & homework, or work and housework, or kids. Also, you probably need decent(TT) gear and squads, for PV which would also take some time to farm unless you just cash up. But assuming you have the gear already, which is rare for a new player turning lvl 90 to have full TT90 gear without help, you could totally do this. But you should probably just round up to about 30 days, sometimes you don't have enough time, or your mess up PV or your run out of dice tickets in cube or w/e the case. Also, 95+ PV is a nightmare. Seen even OP R9 3rd cast seekers only able to do 2 maybe 3 runs max.

And people had these very same real world obligations before frost became a hyper noob instance years ago yet it never stopped people from actually playing the game. More people played back then than they do now ironically.

But don't forget, you have to level to 100 3 times now. b:surrender
Yea, its much easier to do with rebirth 4x/3.5x bonuses, but that's beside the point.
PWI is now more about level. The more your level and all, the more things you can do, and to reach endgame, it would take endless amounts of time without FC.

Its hard/annoying enough that leveling from 104 to 105 takes LIKE a month of 12-14 PV runs + dailies as it is.

It's supposed to be hard. That's the freaking point of it all.

But for leveling alts, or leveling again from scratch with rebirths, there should be no reason to take away the best source of XP up to level 100.

My 2nd reborn veno went from 1 to 78 in 24 hours without even trying to level. So it takes a week or less to get it back to 100+ without FC. You people think that time is game breaking? Maybe you are playing the wrong game then.

People complain that power leveling = noobs. Well doesn't matter level or gear, there are so many noobs in everywhere. My gear is close to endgame, but essentially borderline **** compared to the next teir which includes JoSDs or max level cards. And i kill people in that tier and 1 above it all the time. And all i can think is, "their gear must be ~ok" but later when i check, I realize that they are just noob. I'm not an amazing sin, but people are just noob..b:surrender

It's far more likely than not noobs are unskilled, undergeared, inexperienced with the character class frost babies. Hence the stereotype.

So yea, bring FC back. Let people power level if they want too. They will kill or be killed, but let them atleast be at a point where they might have a fair shot.

They already have a fair shot. They get it with some effort. To believe people don't have a fair shot because they can't bypass 99% of the game to herp derp to 100+ in an instance while some OP character blows through it for them is self-centered thinking.

It was wrong for PWE to allow hypers in FC for as long as they did. It created this type of entitlement mentality. I don't believe any person who plays any MMO is entitled to bypass nearly the entire game content just to get some fat e-peen eqo boost for being at an end game level. That is something which must be earned with effort from the player, not handed to them on a silver platter. Every player ought to be required to do the same type of game play to level. leveling is an earned right of passage.

Jadsia - Lost City wrote: »

It was wrong for PWE to allow hypers in FC for as long as they did. It created this type of entitlement mentality. I don't believe any person who plays any MMO is entitled to bypass nearly the entire game content just to get some fat e-peen eqo boost for being at an end game level. That is something which must be earned with effort from the player, not handed to them on a silver platter. Every player ought to be required to do the same type of game play to level. leveling is an earned right of passage.

Leveling is a false barrier to progression. The game play after lvl 100+ is completely different than 1-99. 1-99 is also not nearly all the game content, it's just filler stuff. Grinding mobs will not teach you much. And what it does teach does not need 6 months to learn.

I remember running fb 69 first time at lvl 64, solo healing fb 69 at lvl 67, most squads asked for 2 clerics. Skill is all about the player and not amount of time played. I don't know why people can't see that. I also see posters ridiculing FC levelers and praising the slow leveling "right way" from my server, who are **** *** players. I assume they don't even know it. I have had them in my squads and honestly I can think of some "fc abies" I'd rather take.

Nearly all of the game content happens at lvl 100+. All updates are for lvl 100+. When PWI first came on, yes leveling was as you say "rite of passage". However at that time lvl mattered a lot more because of the lack of cash shop gear. Back then those stat points counted for A LOT more. That has all changed now. You now need lvl 100+ to even start to WORK to compete and play the game.

Aubree - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Leveling is a false barrier to progression. The game play after lvl 100+ is completely different than 1-99. 1-99 is also not nearly all the game content, it's just filler stuff. Grinding mobs will not teach you much. And what it does teach does not need 6 months to learn.

I remember running fb 69 first time at lvl 64, solo healing fb 69 at lvl 67, most squads asked for 2 clerics. Skill is all about the player and not amount of time played. I don't know why people can't see that. I also see posters ridiculing FC levelers and praising the slow leveling "right way" from my server, who are **** *** players. I assume they don't even know it. I have had them in my squads and honestly I can think of some "fc abies" I'd rather take.

Nearly all of the game content happens at lvl 100+. All updates are for lvl 100+. When PWI first came on, yes leveling was as you say "rite of passage". However at that time lvl mattered a lot more because of the lack of cash shop gear. Back then those stat points counted for A LOT more. That has all changed now. You now need lvl 100+ to even start to WORK to compete and play the game.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. What kind of low level content are people talking about, that develops "skill" is not in FC? Boss debuffing tanks? Boss debuffing supports? BH's do not teach you much about how to do anything, and they certainly don't make you a better person at your class, more so than FC.

Playing your class well is not hard. You people make it seem like rocket science, and that someone who does FC has skipped all the "learning" and decided to make a rocket. It's not rocket science, it's not hard, and it's not skipping anything. I've leveled both ways. PVP wise, pve content does not help at all. You have to pvp to be good at pvp. PvE wise, it is not difficult. There is not much "skill" involved. People who complain about "FC babies" often are just making assumptions about the player.

If a barb at 100 doing a BH does not know how to hold aggro, that is not because (s)he used frost to help level, but because (s)he is an idiot.


I'm really trying hard to find the content that you people say you "need" to be "good" at your class that you can't develop in FC (PvE wise). There is no secret quest that's going to reveal to you the secret of playing your cleric.

You guys try making playing PWI sound more difficult than it actually is. I've played all the classes, so this is not class specific.


Also, just because FC leveling is enabled, it does not mean BHs become obsolete. I still did my BHs most days, when I could play.


You guys make the game sound harder than it is, and you act like leveling using frost will automatically turn you incompetent, and leveling otherwise suddenly makes you good.

The only problem with FC is when people are leveling level 1 alts to max with it solely, but who's going to do that? Older players. People who have made money and know the game a fair bit already. Learning a new class for them is a lot easier than newer players. As for newer players, they don't come in and start buying FC right off the bat. They are not a problem.

As for low level content being empty, I have yet to see the proof of this. I have never found it difficult to make a squad for a BH on any of my alts. I've had over 10. I've played classes multiple times.The only times were when I was playing at a time period in which not many people [;ayed. Or, coincidentally, at end game BHs, where people want to be class specific which I find no problem with despite often being excluded. That's how games work. Some people just aren't needed. As for people spending 10mins finding a certain class, that is their loss and you don't need to worry about it. If it worries you so much then start up your own squad. If someone does not want your class in their squad, then don't complain about it in the forums. Make up your own squad or PM that person.

Inb4 why should i make my own squad.

As for low level questing areas, not many people quests in groups. I've never went to do a quest and been disappointed because I saw that no one was there. Other people are the same. They don't care to squad up with you to kill 5 mobs and then move on. When i started the game I found very little people doing the same quests as me, and I didn't feel a need to squad with the ones that were. Likewise newer players won't be put off by empty questing areas. At least, if they are, I have seen no proof of this or any survey showing so. The reason we don't get newer players is because of a lack of proper advertising and the age of the game, not because people aren't KSing your mobs or killing them at the same time as you. You see pwi's population in the world chat and in the major cities and during BHs. Not at some remote questing area.

You guys complain about people failing in squads, but my squads have rarely every failed, and it's rarely due to some single person messing up. Usually it's something unexpected or just an honest mistake. And my squads are always w/c made. I typically only join squads from w/c, and sometimes faction.


The point of this is to say that FC is not the devil you guys make it out to be, and that "fact" is a blatant lie made by people who think that just because people can level easier and skip content if they want, it is their job to go and tell that person to go and play that content. Then they make up the lie that if they don't they will suck at the game, offering lame anecdotes as their proof.

/end rant