Scamming G16 service - bannable?

Kaugummii - Morai · July 2014

Much easier, safer and better for the economy would be to make the molds tradeable so you buy the mold and someone you can trust (a factionmember) would make them for you

Xainou - Sanctuary · July 2014

I never said anything that people should get their gear back or in which cases they should. But you're trying to justify theft with stupidity. By your logic, everything is permitted just because someone had it coming. How ****ed is that?

ovenusarmanio · July 2014

But scammers shouldn't have to accept personal responsibility for their willful violation of the TOS under the full knowledge it was a bannable offense? What a joke preaching personal responsibility as a reason why scammers should get off scott free, but victims shouldn't have any recourse. Nobody should have to hold a scammer's hand and teach them not to steal things if they want their account or to read legal contacts that they signed and agreed.

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

By your logic, everything is permitted just because someone had it coming. How ****ed is that?

Quoted for the truth.

Gaykamitarie - Dreamweaver · July 2014

Xainou - Sanctuary wrote: »

I never said anything that people should get their gear back or in which cases they should. But you're trying to justify theft with stupidity. By your logic, everything is permitted just because someone had it coming. How ****ed is that?

I don't see anything wrong with people being Proactive and Helping themselves. Taking their Lives in their Own hands and doing what they, themselves can do in order to protect their belongings. To prevent the problem before it occurs.

-snip-

Minimizer - Raging Tide · July 2014

Unfortunately, scamming G16 CS services has been a huge issue on RT server to the point where it happens at least 2-3 times a week. But scamming has always been an issue that PWI turns a blind eye to imo. During the APS/Nirvana days I remember a select few would scam deicides by selling the claws that shared the same icon...It has even been the case where "friends" scam "friends" b:laugh

In almost 99% of the situations, everyone who I am aware of that has or still do commit scams get off with little more than a tardy name. Eventually, they end up having acquired so many material goods through scamming that they are either full T3 or R9. If they stick around, they join TW factions, but when they are bored, they simply quit.

Even when screenshots are submitted of the accused confessing to their scams/cons, pwi responds with the generic "we'll investigate it" but weeks and weeks pass with no actual repercussions (and no a 3 day ban does not suffice). At least from my experiences...

In any other game there would be consequences but it just doesn't seem like the case here. There are still tones of D.Orb code abusers running around, goon glitchers, account sellers/buyers, etc.

Those who do take the time to alert the community are usually berated with "oh that person was dumb enough to do X and deserves it"

As time passes, people forget the scammers, or they assume new identities, and the cycle repeats itself.

I've come to accept that this is a part of PWI. The only advice I see fitting would be the golden saying: Trust no one but yourself. b:thanks

LuckingFoco - Raging Tide · July 2014

Minimizer - Raging Tide wrote: »

Those who do take the time to alert the community are usually berated with "oh that person was dumb enough to do X and deserves it"

This is one of the things that really annoys me about the RT community. Its not like we can afford to lose more players that get fed up with the playerbase and quit because of the idiot thieves in game

bloodedone87 · July 2014

The reason why ppl buy crafting service is that the molds and badges are untradable. Make those tradable and ppl will sell and buy molds and badges instead of buying and sell CS.Scamming problem solved unless you re to stupid to check the mold and badges in trade box.
But untill PW makes that happen( if they will ever make that happen) ppl need to buy unpicked mold and farm lunar and warsong for badges, or do fws and hope the mold they need drops fast, or buy CS. Ppl need to buy craf service because they need to upgrade their G15 to G16 and dont have patience to wait and farm the mold in fws. Or maybe their gear is to weak for fws or many other reasons. Thats why they take a risk and trade their gear to a stranger.
This cannot be compared to real life cause in real life you re not in this situation:
You buyed a new car but the car comes without engine .The only way to achieve engine is buying it from a local shop( the only local shop that sells engine) .But wait, they sell only 10engines per day. And each engines is for a differnt car. And there are 40 different cars.So it comes the day when your engine is sell but someone buyed all the engines before you had the chance to get yours.But wait there still a chance. The person that has youtr engine is willing to sell the engine to you only that he cannot sell cause lets say the law doesnt allow him doing that. But there is a glitch in the law. The law doest say that you cannot give your car to him, he instals the engine, gives the car back and you pay him.
Scammers need to be punished in a way or another. They are scammers nothing more , nothing less. They cheat someone to get something faster . They are not smarter than anyone.
Maybe is a dumb thing to trade your gear for free to a stranger but that doesnt make the scammer less scamer.

ShawtyStar - Raging Tide · July 2014

LuckingFoco - Raging Tide wrote: »

This is one of the things that really annoys me about the RT community. Its not like we can afford to lose more players that get fed up with the playerbase and quit because of the idiot thieves in game

b:laugh I always find the most trust worthy people I meet b:victory like you when I bought fash card and you returned my money kindly b:pleased

Zhenmax - Archosaur · August 2014

it's more safe not to entrust your gears or weapons. i suggest if you have g15 and want to upgrade to g16, try to sell your g15 high and buy g16 low. if you do this, you are safe and may earn a little bit of coins and also you can choose the stats you wanna have right

heheheh b:victory

twistedthings · August 2014

when you trade an item and its in another players possesion, then it theirs to do with as they please....plain and simple, if you dont trade it, then scammers cant get it. dont be stupid ppl.

ovenusarmanio · August 2014

twistedthings wrote: »

when you trade an item and its in another players possesion, then it theirs to do with as they please....plain and simple, if you dont trade it, then scammers cant get it. dont be stupid ppl.

No it isn't theirs to do with as they please. Scamming is very clearly against the TOS. Scamming enforcement is absolutely horrid so some people are getting away with it. But the act itself is very much a bannable offense.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · August 2014

A lot of people get scam because of their naivety, they let it happen cause they are not careful, I do not pity them, they should be more smart and think with their brain not with their heart, we live in a world where there's a lot of people do bad things, I'm not saying scammers are right to scam people, it's a bad action, but scamming exist cause of the naive people, without naive people there will be no scamming, there will still be thieves of course, but for me a scammer and a thief isn't the same, the scammer use manipulation and the naivety of a person to get something which could have been avoid if the person was more careful, while the thief will steal no matter what.

Both are bad. Both should be punish, but in the case of PWI even if they ban the scammer, they should not give back the item to the player so the player learn the lesson and doesn't give away his stuff anymore.

It's like PVP, when someone drop an item and cry to get it back, sometime some people will have pity and give back then the person that get back his item go right away outside SZ and drop again and cry again to get it back, I never give back PVP drops, not cause I'm mean, but to teach them a lesson to use SL, dolls or to bound their items, if people give back they will just assume everyone will. It can seems mean, but people learn from experiences.

Verenor - Morai · August 2014

Quoting myself since everyone keeps pestering about people who fall for it make it legal to do so:

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

no matter how gullible the other player was: selling craftservice only to run away with the items is scamming, illegal, and a bannable offense.

This thread asked if the scamming is a bannable offense: Yes it is.
Does that mean it becomes legal when the victimsed player fell for it? No.
Does that mean the victimised player didn't take proper precautions against such scams: Yes.
Does that mean the victimised player can get blamed: Yes.
Does that mean the scammer gets off scot-free: No.

I don't give a hoot about how stupid the act was, how/if it was deserved, I do not care for the victimised player in my posts here, nor have I directed towards them simply because there are two parties to discuss here and people keep looking at/hiding behind one: the victim, while we're discussing the other: the scammer, and the illegal offenses.
So I'll keep this clear:
PWI doesn't help the victim in retrieving their items from such scams, end of story.
PWI should still punish the other party/the scammer for violation of ToS. Not something they necessarily do, we know, that's what the word "should" is for.

The act of scamming itself, and the scammer himself, are both in violation and should be taken action against. This is entirely independant from the victimised player. I hope by now all following posts will stop referring to "it's their own fault if it happens and there should be no repercussions towards the scammer" as it is exactly that kind of thinking which implies to me and probably others that you are one of the scammers yourself or are involved in such acts.

LuckingFoco - Raging Tide · August 2014

twistedthings wrote: »

when you trade an item and its in another players possesion, then it theirs to do with as they please....plain and simple, if you dont trade it, then scammers cant get it. dont be stupid ppl.

It's this type of mentality that makes me cringe about the idiot mentality of today's youth.

mechabeastmc666 · August 2014

Verenor - Morai wrote: »

Quoting myself since everyone keeps pestering about people who fall for it make it legal to do so:

This thread asked if the scamming is a bannable offense: Yes it is.
Does that mean it becomes legal when the victimsed player fell for it? No.
Does that mean the victimised player didn't take proper precautions against such scams: Yes.
Does that mean the victimised player can get blamed: Yes.
Does that mean the scammer gets off scot-free: No.

I don't give a hoot about how stupid the act was, how/if it was deserved, I do not care for the victimised player in my posts here, nor have I directed towards them simply because there are two parties to discuss here and people keep looking at/hiding behind one: the victim, while we're discussing the other: the scammer, and the illegal offenses.
So I'll keep this clear:
PWI doesn't help the victim in retrieving their items from such scams, end of story.
PWI should still punish the other party/the scammer for violation of ToS. Not something they necessarily do, we know, that's what the word "should" is for.

The act of scamming itself, and the scammer himself, are both in violation and should be taken action against. This is entirely independant from the victimised player. I hope by now all following posts will stop referring to "it's their own fault if it happens and there should be no repercussions towards the scammer" as it is exactly that kind of thinking which implies to me and probably others that you are one of the scammers yourself or are involved in such acts.

So if a Shark Murdered a human begin, you believe the shark should have a trail and be held responsible for the Death of that human begin who went inside of the shark infested waters with an open wound. An advanced civilization would Move past trying to find punishments or speculate what problems are going on in the world like you people are doing, But the advanced civilization would focus on Preventing the problem Before it happens. Rather than saying what the scammer deserves, Lets use that time to Grow as a species and focus on Preventing the problem before it happens to someone else. And it's one simple fix. Dont trade the gear. Or dont go inside of the shark infested waters. The scammes are the sharks. Punishment wont stop scamming in this game, But Prevention Will. The scammer provides you with a learning lesson, that is worth 100 times more then any gear on the game. Lets Grow together. Not stay stuck in the primitive "she's a witch! throw stones at her" time.

There is no such thing as a scammer if there is no victim. Therefore, No action shall be taken against that Player who never scammed you.

Xainou - Sanctuary · August 2014

mechabeastmc666 wrote: »

So if a Shark Murdered a human begin, you believe the shark should have a trail and be held responsible for the Death of that human [...]

Yep, comparing scammers to animals seems pretty accurate to me.

SakuLv - Dreamweaver · August 2014

Every time i see some1 asking in WC: WTB Mold+ badges
I just pm that person , tell him/her few names, who he/she shouldn't trust.

I feel rly bad if some1 gets scammed. There been times when i see person asking to buy mold- badges and i was lazy to warm him/her. (stupid me x.x)
And next thing i know he/she WCs about the person who scammed him/her.
And i feel so guilty

cuz i didnt warm about the scammer.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear · August 2014

mechabeastmc666 wrote: »

So if a Shark Murdered a human begin, you believe the shark should have a trail and be held responsible for the Death of that human begin who went inside of the shark infested waters with an open wound. An advanced civilization would Move past trying to find punishments or speculate what problems are going on in the world like you people are doing, But the advanced civilization would focus on Preventing the problem Before it happens. Rather than saying what the scammer deserves, Lets use that time to Grow as a species and focus on Preventing the problem before it happens to someone else. And it's one simple fix. Dont trade the gear. Or dont go inside of the shark infested waters. The scammes are the sharks. Punishment wont stop scamming in this game, But Prevention Will. The scammer provides you with a learning lesson, that is worth 100 times more then any gear on the game. Lets Grow together. Not stay stuck in the primitive "she's a witch! throw stones at her" time.

There is no such thing as a scammer if there is no victim. Therefore, No action shall be taken against that Player who never scammed you.

If you are going to compare the situation to something in real life, using an animal is very stupid. How about you actually compare it to the exact same thing, a scam?

There are real scammers. They find trusting people and convince them of things like how they can take a small amount of money from you and turn it into a much larger amount. They provide documentation and make themselves seem very legit and trustworthy, and very trusting people inevitably do fall for it. What happens then? The people may never see their money again, but since the act of scamming is illegal the scammer will be punished if he/she is caught. The police don't just say "oh sorry ma'am, but if you hadn't fallen for it he wouldn't be a scammer so we're just going to let it go."

Scamming has always been bannable in this game. I have seen, in the past, many many catshops banned from scamming in the form of clever mispricing or using items with the same icon as other items to fool people. Sure, you can easily avoid being scammed in this way by just inspecting the item before purchasing it, but many people fall for it regardless. The only difference is that now our support team is slacking and doesn't do much of anything anymore, including punishing anyone for any violation.

Unknown · August 2014

This content has been removed.

bloodedone87 · August 2014

sontzu wrote: »

I really don't know why this thread hasn't been locked yet; despite repeated, comprehensive, and well reasoned arguments from Venus, and a number of other people who can understand the concepts of logic, and how it pertains to the tos, and also some comparative morality thrown in for good measure, the trolls continue to post their moronic trollish comments. Venus, OPK, Krisnda, someone please, close this perpetually circling thread.

I must agree with you. I actually cant believe that some ppl are defending scammers.b:shocked
They are like: its not the villan, its the victim fault.
Its like saying: Its not the criminal responsible for killing that women with a knife. Its the women fault for walking on that street at that hour when the criminal was passing by with a knife in his hand. And thats so wrong.

rieihdius · August 2014

People who usually defend the scammer are: the scammer alt or his/her friend or faction mate..

While I agree that some people have to be really stupid to be cheated by this scammers, that does not mean that the scammer should be allowed to continue cheating more people. And I believe that the recent attitude of the community on the server that I play it is disappointing.

Usually when someone warns about some known scammers, the all time world chat trolls tell that person to shut up or start make fun of him/her or say things like: ''everyone is a scammer''
This of course until they get cheated. I must say it is really funny to see those people who praised the scammer and make fun of the victims become the pray themselves for example on lunar..

Cotillion - Dreamweaver · August 2014

bloodedone87 wrote: »

I must agree with you. I actually cant believe that some ppl are defending scammers.b:shocked
They are like: its not the villan, its the victim fault.
Its like saying: Its not the criminal responsible for killing that women with a knife. Its the women fault for walking on that street at that hour when the criminal was passing by with a knife in his hand. And thats so wrong.

I can't believe how many people haven't actually read most of this topic, then insert a ridiculous example like this one that doesn't even come close to the situation being discussed.
Murder is the same as scamming digital items?

But fine, using that as the example as ridiculous as it is, the woman walking on the street would have to paint a target on her chest, raise her hands in the air and start yelling for people to kill her, begging to be killed because that's what the victims are doing. I don't believe anyone has said that the scammers should get away free, because they shouldnt.
What people are saying is, advertising in WC that "Hey I have millions in coin and gear I'm willing to hand over to any stranger who says they can craft me something" is asking for scammers to come out of the woodwork and steal their stuff.
Of course scammers will thrive when people do this. The scammers should be punished/banned, but the victims are complaining after they advertise to the world they are willing to do this.
It doesn't mean the villain should get away with it, however it does raise the question of the victim advertising they are more or less willing to be scammed.

Being smart about it, is all most people are saying - not to free murderers and condemn murder victims.

bloodedone87 · August 2014

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

I can't believe how many people haven't actually read most of this topic, then insert a ridiculous example like this one that doesn't even come close to the situation being discussed.
Murder is the same as scamming digital items?

But fine, using that as the example as ridiculous as it is, the woman walking on the street would have to paint a target on her chest, raise her hands in the air and start yelling for people to kill her, begging to be killed because that's what the victims are doing. I don't believe anyone has said that the scammers should get away free, because they shouldnt.
What people are saying is, advertising in WC that "Hey I have millions in coin and gear I'm willing to hand over to any stranger who says they can craft me something" is asking for scammers to come out of the woodwork and steal their stuff.
Of course scammers will thrive when people do this. The scammers should be punished/banned, but the victims are complaining after they advertise to the world they are willing to do this.
It doesn't mean the villain should get away with it, however it does raise the question of the victim advertising they are more or less willing to be scammed.

Being smart about it, is all most people are saying - not to free murderers and condemn murder victims.

Ofc its not the same thing. What Im trying to tell is the scammers cannot be defend no matter how stupid the victims were.
i still see this ****: '' Don't trade your gear if you dont wanna get scammed''.
here we are not talking about the situation were:
exemple: a seeker saying to another seeker: '' nice sword you have there. can I try it a bit to see how it looks on my char'' and the other seeker says: '' sure, why not''. And he trade the sword. The first seeker runs with it .
Yes this is scamming too but i have less compasion to the stupid person that trade his gear to an unknown person .
Here we talk about crafting service. were someone wc something like this:
'' WTS CS G16 Budda Hatred, Psychic soulsphere''
And the psychic with G15 says to himself: ''hey i have the G15, i have money to pay, i even have the eoo , so why not''
So he pm the seller and says he accept his CS. They squad eachother and both met at forges.
And here the rule'' Dont trade your gear if you dont wanna get scammed'' doesnt aply.
He need to trade the G15 soulsphere so it can be craft.
If the seller runs with it then he is a scammer and the victim is just a victim, nothing less, nothing more.

Xx_BeLLa_xX - Harshlands · August 2014

sontzu wrote: »

I really don't know why this thread hasn't been locked yet; despite repeated, comprehensive, and well reasoned arguments from Venus, and a number of other people who can understand the concepts of logic, and how it pertains to the tos, and also some comparative morality thrown in for good measure, the trolls continue to post their moronic trollish comments. Venus, OPK, Krisnda, someone please, close this perpetually circling thread.

I'm kinda surprise it's still alive too, I though discussing about disciplinary actions was against the forum rules and here people are clearly discussing that, arguing about if yes or no scammers deserve punishment, which according to the rule #18 shouldn't be discuss on the forum.

Cotillion - Dreamweaver · August 2014

bloodedone87 wrote: »

They squad eachother and both met at forges.
And here the rule'' Dont trade your gear if you dont wanna get scammed'' doesnt aply.
He need to trade the G15 soulsphere so it can be craft.
If the seller runs with it then he is a scammer and the victim is just a victim, nothing less, nothing more.

Victims can take precautions before they are victims, is the point.
The victim doesn't need to be so haphazard with his stuff. He doesn't have to just hand over his stuff to just anyone or the first person he sees in WC or the first one that replies when does a WTB. They can ask for collateral, they can ask around in faction and/or friends for trusted names to keep in a list if they are planning on using this service in the future.
Its called being accountable for your own actions, which does not mean letting the scammer go free. It means taking steps to protect yourself. Though I was criticized for even suggesting such a thing earlier.
Yes PWE should punish the scammers, but that also does not mean that the people being victimized should be haphazard and solely rely on PWE to babysit them when they can take precautions themselves to avoid being scammed in the first place.

You have insurance on your car. Does that mean you leave the keys in it, unlocked, in a dark alley where someone will steal it, because the insurance company will cover it? Of course you dont. You take precautions with your stuff, just as people should with their digital items.
Like the insurance company, PWE support should be one part in a line of precautions people take with their stuff.......not solely relied on as the only one.
The g16 service is a well known avenue for scammers, so it would make sense that people would take caution when proceeding with it - not abandon it all together, but be smart about it.

Annalyse - Heavens Tear · August 2014

Cotillion - Dreamweaver wrote: »

Victims can take precautions before they are victims, is the point.
The victim doesn't need to be so haphazard with his stuff. He doesn't have to just hand over his stuff to just anyone or the first person he sees in WC or the first one that replies when does a WTB. They can ask for collateral, they can ask around in faction and/or friends for trusted names to keep in a list if they are planning on using this service in the future.
Its called being accountable for your own actions, which does not mean letting the scammer go free. It means taking steps to protect yourself.
Yes PWE should punish the scammers, but that also does not mean that the people being victimized should be haphazard and solely rely on PWE to babysit them when they can take precautions themselves to avoid being scammed in the first place.

You have insurance on your car. Does that mean you leave the keys in it, unlocked, in a dark alley where someone will steal it, because the insurance company will cover it? Of course you dont. You take precautions with your stuff, just as people should with their digital items.
The g16 service is a well known avenue for scammers, so it would make sense that people would take caution when proceeding with it - not abandon it all together, but be smart about it.

I think most of us actually agree with you there. I personally don't mind if the people that are scammed in this matter don't get their gear returned, because it is common sense and a mistake to learn from. If support gives the gear back, people aren't going to be wary about trying it again because they believe there are no repercussions. Having to refarm or rebuy one piece of G15 gear isn't the end of the world, and will teach them to be more careful in the future.

The only real debate here was about punishment of the scammer. And it really should be closed, as we are just going back and forth with the same arguments now.

Scamming G16 service - bannable?

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